17 réponses à ce sujet

[Squallian]

Hey, I've heard a lot of people say how easy MotB/NWN2 in general is and how they wish it'd be harder etc. I however have found it incredibly difficult, even on easy. So I'm wondering what I've  been doing wrong? I'll post here a description of an average encounter for me:


I enter a dream sequence. 4 guys confront me. There is no way to deal with the situation diplomatically. They attack me, I die within 2 seconds. I try again. I cast stone skin, it doesn't matter. I cast divine shield, it doesn't matter. I use health potions, it doesn't matter. I buff before the fight with everything I have, I summon 2 creatures with the highest level summon creature spell available, with both of my characters. I manage to cast Bigby's forceful hand on one of the casters and it actually works - amazing! They fall to the ground for all of 2.5 seconds, if that. It doesn't matter, the enemies proceed to cut through me like a hot knife through butter; I barely have any time to cast anything, let alone kill them and if by some miracle I stay alive long enough to cast a spell, they cancel it

One of their attacks does 10x the damage of any of mine, more than any of my level 8 or 9 spells. They constantly knock me down, they strip my buffs from me. It is seemingly impossible for me to win. The difficulty setting is on easy. I am using one of the best builds available ( http://nwn2.wikia.co...sidian_Sorcerer if you're curious). I try several times more and finally get it by retreating around the corner and seemingly abusing the fact the AI takes a long time to go around there. I fight one enemy 1 on 1. He almost beats me. That 1 enemy! It takes awhile, but me and Gann (only the 2 of us are allowed in this dream) finally take the others down with copious amounts of health potions just barely saving us each time. Each remaining enemy takes about 5+ maximised isaac's greater missile storm level 9 spells to take down, or the equivelant. On easy mode. Not hard, or hardcore mode, or very hard, or even normal mode. But, in fact, on easy mode. Easy mode. EASY MODE. These are the spells I've seen referred to as "tactical nuclear strikes" or "summon death stars mk2" obviously exaggerating but still implying they are incredibly powerful. I just don't get it, really. Am I playing the same game as everyone else has? It's not just this fight either, this is a relatively frequent occurence. Hopefully someone can provide some actual advice instead of just saying I'm a noob and blah blah, I already know that. 

Another question, using still spell + iron body doesn't seem to work for me. Anyone know why? Isn't it supposed to? Do I need auto-still? Why?

Thank you.

Modifié par Squallian, 19 septembre 2011 - 01:42 .

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I didn't find it easy on normal mode either when I started playing it initially. Had my hat handed to me several times by what appeared to be common street thugs. If you find yourself getting really frustrated and you have SoZ then consider installing my MotB Makeover mod and then you can use the party editor feature from SoZ to import some party members of your own design to help you out. Personally I hate the sections in the OC and MotB where they strip the party members from you and force you to fight alone. I'm trying to build a cohesive fighting unit, not a demi-god.

Regards

[I_Raps]

Also, you don't mention (and I didn't see on the link) what spells you took. A mage at these levels will be slaughtered by fighters (as you're discovering) long before you can get all your required buffs cast - unless you're ethereal.

[Squallian]

I_Raps wrote...

Also, you don't mention (and I didn't see on the link) what spells you took. A mage at these levels will be slaughtered by fighters (as you're discovering) long before you can get all your required buffs cast - unless you're ethereal.

http://nwn2.wikia.co...10),Ro(1),BG(3)

On this talk page of the article you can see the spells he recommends (scroll down a bit). I've followed it to the letter. I'm like level 23 or so at the moment, and I've been getting slaughtered by pretty much everything apart from the really, really weak monsters since I started playing. It sucks.

Maybe I'm just not playing as the build creator intended? I don't know. I'm casting my shields like divine shield, stone skin, etc but it doesn't seem to help much.

Thanks for the responses.

Modifié par Squallian, 19 septembre 2011 - 01:51 .

[I_Raps]

Squallian wrote...

Maybe I'm just not playing as the build creator intended? I don't know. I'm casting my shields like divine shield, stone skin, etc but it doesn't seem to help much.

That could be your problem right there - you're assuming the builder ever played this character.  99% of the builds on these build sites have never seen the light of day in the actual game.  They've sprung fully grown at level 30 and armed to the teeth from their creator's skull like Athena.  And often they have assumptions that simply don't work - or that suck even if they do (e.g.  "Ethereal Jaunt: More useful on PWs. For NWN2 OC/MoTB you can just hit reload"  -- what the hell kind of way is that to play?)

I've opened this kettle of fish before on the previous forum (I wish I could still link to it, the Chronicles of the Groshnak family were epic), but suffice to say - as you are learning, this build kind of sucks in MOTB.  I could go into details if you like, but it comes down to this - you're not going to have any fun with this.  And the changes that are required are immense, you're better off starting from scratch. 

(That doesn't mean you have to start a new character from level 1;  you can build one to level 20+ in a trainer mod and import him;  I can even tell you how you can put that character into your current saved game, if you like.  It's a little complicated, but imminently doable).

Modifié par I_Raps, 19 septembre 2011 - 06:04 .

[kevL]

being the maintainer of a mod that has the capability of squashing PCs like bugs ... here's another perspective:


i'll say that encounter you mention is very, very, very Very difficult for me. I have some suggestions (but it's been a while ..). Use Pause & Puppet extensively. Maximize your buffing *before* you go around that corner. If you have a save before entering the dream sequence, get your other companions to buff yourself and Gann (although I'm not sure if the buffs will stick around, it's worth a shot). Test out your opponents to find out what they're going to do, reLoad and buff accordingly.

A thorough knowledge of both offensive and defensive spells, and what works against who, is critical for a fine-tuned game as complicated as NwN2. A wizard/sorcerer is by no means the easiest class to play ....

my motto:
- never adventure without medium and long term buffs up.


Ps. Gann probably doesn't have the best spells for what you need. Consider using character editors or console cheats to switch around his spell line-up to one that is more to your liking


--
I_Raps, shield made the cut ..

[Squallian]

I_Raps wrote...

Squallian wrote...

Maybe I'm just not playing as the build creator intended? I don't know. I'm casting my shields like divine shield, stone skin, etc but it doesn't seem to help much.

That could be your problem right there - you're assuming the builder ever played this character.  99% of the builds on these build sites have never seen the light of day in the actual game.  They've sprung fully grown at level 30 and armed to the teeth from their creator's skull like Athena.  And often they have assumptions that simply don't work - or that suck even if they do (e.g.  "Ethereal Jaunt: More useful on PWs. For NWN2 OC/MoTB you can just hit reload"  -- what the hell kind of way is that to play?)

I've opened this kettle of fish before on the previous forum (I wish I could still link to it, the Chronicles of the Groshnak family were epic), but suffice to say - as you are learning, this build kind of sucks in MOTB.  I could go into details if you like, but it comes down to this - you're not going to have any fun with this.  And the changes that are required are immense, you're better off starting from scratch. 

(That doesn't mean you have to start a new character from level 1;  you can build one to level 20+ in a trainer mod and import him;  I can even tell you how you can put that character into your current saved game, if you like.  It's a little complicated, but imminently doable).

I see. Yeah, I'd like you to give instructions on how to do that, if you don't mind. Would you explain why the build sucks? D&D seems only slightly less complicated than rocket science to me and I have no idea what I'm doing most of the time. Also any suggestions for what build I should actually be using would be good. I realise most people suggest you use a cleric or fighter if you're new to the game, but they sound a bit boring to me and I was hoping to use a wizard, sorcerer, warlock or etc.

kevL wrote...

being the maintainer of a mod that has the capability of squashing PCs like bugs ... here's another perspective:


i'll say that encounter you mention is very, very, very Very difficult for me. I have some suggestions (but it's been a while ..). Use Pause & Puppet extensively. Maximize your buffing *before* you go around that corner. If you have a save before entering the dream sequence, get your other companions to buff yourself and Gann (although I'm not sure if the buffs will stick around, it's worth a shot). Test out your opponents to find out what they're going to do, reLoad and buff accordingly.

A thorough knowledge of both offensive and defensive spells, and what works against who, is critical for a fine-tuned game as complicated as NwN2. A wizard/sorcerer is by no means the easiest class to play ....

my motto:
- never adventure without medium and long term buffs up.


Ps. Gann probably doesn't have the best spells for what you need. Consider using character editors or console cheats to switch around his spell line-up to one that is more to your liking


--
I_Raps, shield made the cut ..

Thanks for the suggestions. I did beat the fight in the end, but I already had the buffs up in most of my failed attempts. What seemed to help was retreating around the corner - it took them awhile to turn around that and it gave me some time to finish some of them off 1 on 1, but even doing that I still almost lost, which is crazy. 

Modifié par Squallian, 19 septembre 2011 - 08:17 .

[I_Raps]

Let's start with what's wrong.

The build is schizophrenic. Why Blackguard? You're never going to be a melee fighter. And the reviewer realizes this: "Cons: Horrible melee (without appropriate buffs); Very Low HP" "Aura of despair ... (although that only works when Enemies are close, and you normally don't want to be close to Enemies)."

You sacrifice three levels and three feats to get Divine Shield and armor proficiency and saving throw bonuses (but again, "at high levels as Sorcerer Buffs protect against most things which rely on Saves, so that high Saves are rendered somewhat obsolete"), basically. That's too expensive. If you MUST wear mithral plate, just take the armor proficiency feat and keep levelling as Sorcerer; use the other two feats on Extended and Persistant Spell. As for a shield, use the spell, it's better. Ultimately, your AC isn't going to matter against Epic fighters - it's there for the riffraff like elementals and so on.

Next up, why on earth do you have 13 STR? It makes no sense. Virtually any other stat would be better for those points.

As for spells, start with Magic Missile, Shield and Grease. Take Haste definitely (drop Stinking Cloud) and Spiderskin. I doubt that Confusion will ever work for you - I'd go with Greater Invisibility, Isaac's Lesser or Evard's. Consider Dismissal instead of Vitriolic Sphere (both Gann and Kaelyn will be tossing up better acid storms with abandon) and Bigby's. Greater Spell Breach, Disintegrate, True Seeing instead of Isaac's Greater.

Your higher level spells should be considered as a group. You have redundant spells - Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee - which are seldom going to work for you. A dedicated necromancer with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus will have a good success rate; that's not you. Consider dumping one or both of them. You should also drop the Summon VIII; that elemental is going to die quickly and you have far more important things to do with your limited spell selection (I hope you have the Orglash Crystal from the cave you woke up in - that summons a much more powerful creature than any of your I-IX spells), and drop the level VII Bigby.  Is Horrid Wilting working out?  - if not, maybe it should be replaced, too.
 
Shades is a very powerful defensive spell, almost a sine qua non for a sorceror. Also Mind Blank, Banishment, Meteor Swarm, Mass Blindness/Deafness, Sunburst, Greater Shout, Avasculate, Prismatic Spray should be considered. Ethereal Jaunt if you don't have an item (you kept the Telthor bone, didn't you?). If you took Greater Spell Breach, ditch Mordenkainen's.

Finally, Epic Feats. The Autostills are a waste of time, a luxury you don't have; you can just cast the Still version of most spells if (BIG if) you need to. You want Vampiric Feast and Epic Gate at a minimum.

Modifié par I_Raps, 20 septembre 2011 - 12:25 .

[I_Raps]

As for getting the new version of your character into your saved game:

click here

Be sure to read the whole thing - I had to revise it.

[Squallian]

I'm not sure if leto works nowadays or something, I get 'List index out of bound' when I try and edit my feats or skills. It also shows the character I opened up as level 1 from the directory it specifies (though I can choose a different one form my saves folder, but I still have the error message when trying to edit feats/spells etc). I think I'll probably just have to stomach playing the game with my current character, really annoying that it isn't simple to just rebuild my character. One question; I may be missing something but your changes don't seem to be TOO drastic, and I don't really see how they would stop me getting killed every 2 seconds as none of it seems to provide more protection (less if anything?). I'm surprised you recommend dropping Isaac's greater missile storm, as that's one of the only spells I've found that can actually do good damage to my enemies. You're right about finger of death and wail of the banshee; they almost never work, but then you proceed to recommend things like disintegrate which should have the same success rate? Confusing!

Thanks.

Modifié par Squallian, 20 septembre 2011 - 02:07 .

[I_Raps]

Leto works just fine if you do like I say (Advanced Character Editor, ignore their old NWN1 database). I and many others have made it work perfectly, but don't let that inhibit you if you really want it to not work.

As for Disintegrate and so on - it does something even when they make their saves, unlike Wail or Finger. And it will work on folks you'll see a lot of later on who will simply sing along with Wail.  And you will have at least one more feat to possibly use on Spell Focus or extra CHA, but you won't be wasting it on Necromancy that you hardly use.

You're not going to be killed every 2 seconds because (1) you're going to be ethereal most of the time and running twice as fast as them the rest of the time and (2) grease and blindness are two of the most debilitating things in the game (along with Stonehold, which you should have Gann start casting) and (3) your useful summons are going to actually matter (especially when they're Tortoise Shelled, Stoneskinned, Hasted, etc.). Oh, and Vampiric Feast is going to thin the ranks considerably from the very start.  That's a big one, right there.  And you're going to know better than to stand there counting on your AC and your mighty 13 STR, or actually working closer so your Aura comes into effect.

Modifié par I_Raps, 20 septembre 2011 - 03:02 .

[Squallian]

I_Raps wrote...

Leto works just fine if you do like I say (Advanced Character Editor, ignore their old NWN1 database). I and many others have made it work perfectly, but don't let that inhibit you if you really want it to not work.

What's that supposed to mean? Of course I want it to work, but I can't access my feats or skills with it and nowhere did I see you say to activate the 'advanced editor.' Now that I've done that, I have more options but it's not particularly user friendly. I'll try to make it work though.

You're not going to be killed every 2 seconds because (1) you're going to be ethereal most of the time and running twice as fast as them the rest of the time and (2) grease and blindness are two of the most debilitating things in the game (along with Stonehold, which you should have Gann start casting) and (3) your useful summons are going to actually matter (especially when they're Tortoise Shelled, Stoneskinned, Hasted, etc.). Oh, and Vampiric Feast is going to thin the ranks considerably from the very start.  That's a big one, right there.  And you're going to know better than to stand there counting on your AC and your mighty 13 STR, or actually working closer so your Aura comes into effect.

I see. Doesn't ethereal go away when you cast hostile spells though? And even if you're running faster, when you stop to cast spells they'll probably catch up and resume their ass-kicking, no? I'll give it a shot, in any case. Thanks for your help.

Modifié par Squallian, 20 septembre 2011 - 05:56 .

[Dann-J]

Don't underestimate the usefulness of the Still Spell feat. It allows you to cast arcane spells while ignoring spell failure due to heavy armour and shields. You only have to sacrifice one level of spells for it too (unlike many of the other metamagic feats). Plus there are a heap of spells that can be cast normally without the risk of spell failure - those that don't have a 'somatic' component, like the Power Word spells or Wail of the Banshee.

Modifié par DannJ, 21 septembre 2011 - 12:53 .

[Kaldor Silverwand]

DannJ wrote...

Don't underestimate the usefulness of the Still Spell feat. It allows you to cast arcane spells while ignoring spell failure due to heavy armour and shields.

I had no idea about that. I always hunted around for rare armor that has a negative spell failure adjustment for my arcanists. Not too much of that though. Thanks.

Regards

[Dann-J]

The elven ceremonial armour you find in the collector's vault in the first OC is ideal for Still Spell tanked casters. It grants spell focus feats in four magic domains. I've found it particularly useful for wizard/fighter/eldritch knights.

[I_Raps]

DannJ wrote...

The elven ceremonial armour you find in the collector's vault in the first OC is ideal for Still Spell tanked casters. It grants spell focus feats in four magic domains. I've found it particularly useful for wizard/fighter/eldritch knights.

I've found it ideal for a certain off-worlder cleric 99% of the time.

[nino1979]

heh Zeh,yup i give Elven cermonial to Zahjeve

[mungbean]

Heh, me too. I knew about still spell and used it in an early game but I used to play drow and with the ECL 2 another spell level sacrificed kind of seemed like the straw that broke the camel's back.

Since then I removed ECL and play other elves anyway so still spell remains an option for my Eldritch Knights, which I quite like in mithral plate. Kaedrin's Bladesinger PrC though is unconcerned with armoured caster feat so mithral chainmail suit looks good on them and qualifies as light armour.

The elven ceremonial armour though doesn't have mithral qualities so I never liked it much, same with the elven chain. I make my own and like the eldritch knight style armour look with fine silver links and grey leather tunic.