23 réponses à ce sujet

[Scyles]

There's still talk of daggers "not cutting it" in the mid to end game going around.  This is not the case for a few reasons which are often overlooked:
(1) Daggers are very fast, about twice as fast as other weapons.  With Momentum, you're striking far more quickly than with any other weapon.  This means that: 
(2) Elemental runes, poison, and spell-buffs are about twice as effective.  When you consider that some daggers can hold three elemental runes for a total of +15 damage from runes alone, it becomes apparent that dagger-weilders can compete with other high DPS builds.
(3) More backstab critical hits while opponents are stunned.
(4) You can focus solely upon dexterity for both damage and accuracy, which pushes your defense rating through the roof.  Evasion-tanking is possible.

[T0rin3]

1) Not that much faster than other weapons, have to keep in mind that you do less damage in order to hit faster... it is a trade off..

2) Only 1 dagger can hold 3 runes?

3) But the same damage as other weapons.. faster hits, lower damage.

4) Dexterity alone sucks, if you're using daggers, you should be focusing on Cunning, which boots your damage in many more ways than dexterity does. Tanking is possible, sure, but you're no warrior. (you don't have taunt/threaten/heavy armor for aggro)

[veryalien]

The best weapon in the game can be gotten through Warden's Keep DLC. It's either a 1h sword or a 2h sword. You're never offered a dagger version.

[Inarai]

Addendum to point 2: Random proc runes have twice the opurtunity to go off.

On point 4: I assume you mean with the hot-fix on. Rogues with Lethality will want to put a good deal of points into Cunning, though - better/more crits(I think), and it's good for their talents.

Also, I've tested sword+dagger instead of dual daggers on my rogue, not at all as good.

Modifié par Inarai, 22 novembre 2009 - 03:52 .

[T0rin3]

More crits doesn't matter really, since pretty much all of your crits will be via backstab. Dexterity gives less damage than Cunning does, but you get more defense and attack power in trade.



Not saying Daggers are bad, they are the best damage possible, just understand how to use them properly and what you're trading by using them.

[Discobird]

I've seen plain T7 daggers with three rune slots. Might be random, not sure.

[T0rin3]

Will have to check back at camp, I'm sure I have more than 1 dragonbone dagger waiting to be purchased. (from all the trade ins/upgrades)

Edit: Checked... T7 Crow Dagger - 0 slots, T7 Dar'Misu - 0 slots... I think you only get rune slots on "unique" weapons.

Modifié par T0rin3, 22 novembre 2009 - 03:55 .

[Scyles]

According to the weapon stats presented in "The Missing Manual," daggers have a +50% speed modifier. The next closest is longswords at a +10% speed modifier. That's a pretty wide gulf.

More crits doesn't matter really, since pretty much all of your crits
will be via backstab. Dexterity gives less damage than Cunning does,
but you get more defense and attack power in trade.

Accuracy may be a greater contributor to overall DPS, especially when it matters (against higher level enemies with greater defense).

Modifié par Scyles, 22 novembre 2009 - 03:59 .

[metatrans]

Dual Daggers is ideal for Assassin rogue.



the reason is the Exploit Weakness talent which adds a fixed amount of additional damage per backstab based on cunning. Faster weapons means more backstabs. Dual Daggers and high Cunning maximize this talent. Lethality is a given for this build as well. And of course in order to maximize Cunning you need to minimize strength. Thats the real incentive. Daggers require no strength to equip so you can just drop all your points into Cunning and Dex.



the other consequences of faster attack speed are also worthy but less important than the Exploit Weakness bonus, which is primary for this strategy.

[T0rin3]

Scyles wrote...

According to the weapon stats presented in "The Missing Manual," daggers have a +50% speed modifier. The next closest is longswords at a +10% speed modifier. That's a pretty wide gulf.

Yeah, on paper. Consider the damage differences, rune slot availability, stats on Unique longswords... I'm not arguing against daggers, I'm just trying to explain that the difference between daggers and axes and longswords are not all that much different in reality.

[Discobird]

Scyles wrote...

According to the weapon stats presented in "The Missing Manual," daggers have a +50% speed modifier. The next closest is longswords at a +10% speed modifier. That's a pretty wide gulf.

The "speed modifier" in that weapon table indicates how many seconds that weapon shaves off the default attack time.  It's not a proportion or a multiplier.

For dual wield styles the default speed is 1.5s, so daggers attack at 1s and longswords attack at 1.4.  For single-wield styles the default speed is 2s, and for 2H style the default speed is 2.5s.

Modifié par Discobird, 22 novembre 2009 - 03:58 .

[Discobird]

T0rin3 wrote...

Will have to check back at camp, I'm sure I have more than 1 dragonbone dagger waiting to be purchased. (from all the trade ins/upgrades)

Edit: Checked... T7 Crow Dagger - 0 slots, T7 Dar'Misu - 0 slots... I think you only get rune slots on "unique" weapons.

Here's the plain 3-slot Dragonbone dagger I've been using in some of my experiments:



I can't remember where I got it, but I wonder if maybe only Dragonbone daggers can get random rune slots and not Crow Daggers or Dar' Misus.

Don't mind the image quality, I had to lower my settings to minimum so I could fraps some stuff

[Scyles]

Discobird wrote...
For dual wield styles the default speed is 1.5s, so daggers attack at 1s and longswords attack at 1.4.

If I'm understanding the mechanics correctly, daggers attack at 1s and longswords attack at 1.4, then that means that longswords are still 40% slower, correct?  I had in mind that longswords were 40% slower (and other weapons were 50% slower or more) when I stated that daggers were "about" 50% faster.

T0rin3: "Yeah, on paper. Consider the damage differences, rune slot availability, stats on Unique longswords... I'm not arguing against daggers, I'm just trying to explain that the difference between daggers and axes and longswords are not all that much different in reality."

You make a good point on weapon availabilty.  It is indeed far more likely that you'll acquire several exceptional longswords by the time you acquire one decent dagger in this game.

Modifié par Scyles, 22 novembre 2009 - 04:11 .

[Discobird]

Didn't you say daggers were about twice as fast as other weapons in your OP? Anyways dual-wielded longswords are about 30% slower than dual-wielded daggers (they get 0.71 attacks/s instead of the dagger's 1 attack/s). Equivalently, daggers are 40% faster. The difference is smaller when you single-wield.

[Scyles]

Discobird wrote...

Didn't you say daggers were about twice as fast as other weapons in your OP? Anyways dual-wielded longswords are about 30% slower than dual-wielded daggers (they get 0.71 attacks/s instead of the dagger's 1 attack/s). Equivalently, daggers are 40% faster. The difference is smaller when you single-wield.

Yes, you're correct, I did.  My mistake, thanks for the correction.  If daggers are only 30% faster than longswords, rather than 100% faster, well that sort of poops on my party, doesn't it?

Modifié par Scyles, 22 novembre 2009 - 04:14 .

[T0rin3]

Not really, daggers are still great.

[Discobird]

Not at all, it turns out dagger/dagger cunning is still the highest DPS rogue build as far as I can tell (details in the DW rogue DPS thread). Even when they're only 40% faster (or 20% faster as compared to fullsize/dagger builds), that extra speed adds up when you pile on the bonus damage from Exploit Weakness, Tainted Blood, runes, and gear.

[DrekorSilverfang]

Rose's Thorn is an awesome weapon, you can if you want get a T7 crow's dagger with 3 slots.

[metatrans]

Discobird wrote...

Not at all, it turns out dagger/dagger cunning is still the highest DPS rogue build as far as I can tell (details in the DW rogue DPS thread). Even when they're only 40% faster (or 20% faster as compared to fullsize/dagger builds), that extra speed adds up when you pile on the bonus damage from Exploit Weakness, Tainted Blood, runes, and gear.

this is my experience as well. 

the game mechanics do not normalize anything to attack speed so you are incentivized to stack as many "per attack" bonuses as possible and use the fastest weapons possible. there's a very large number of these available to a rogue and Dagger/Dagger with momentum certainly squeezes the most benefit out of them. 

the list of relevant "per attack" bonuses that i've been using is this, not comprehensive but definitely thorough:

Elemental Damage Runes (up to +5 damage per attack per rune slot)
Paralyze Runes (proc rate unknown, but faster attacking certainly increased proc rate by a large amount)
Fire Weapons/Frost Weapons (variable bonus based on Mage's spellpower, have observed up to +10 per attack)
Exploit Weakness talent (unknown exactly what the scaling rate is, but flat per attack damage bonus based on Cunning)
Poisons and Blade Coatings (varies per poison, largest i've found is +3 damage per attack for potent poisons)
+damage bonuses on the weapons themselves (most noteworthy is Rose Thorn)

it can get pretty ridiculous. its easily possible to crank out over 100 damage per backstab when you add up your base damage and all the stacked bonuses. you're outputting a nominal DPS of about 140 assuming zero armor and no misses. nothing in the game comes close to that as far as I can tell. even nightmare level bosses only have a couple thousand Health I think, a properly built backstabber can drop them like a sack of bricks in under 10 seconds if you get an opportunity to unload on them. 

[Inarai]

T0rin3 wrote...

Will have to check back at camp, I'm sure I have more than 1 dragonbone dagger waiting to be purchased. (from all the trade ins/upgrades)

Edit: Checked... T7 Crow Dagger - 0 slots, T7 Dar'Misu - 0 slots... I think you only get rune slots on "unique" weapons.

It's actually quite inconstant - for example, I've have Veridium daggers both slotted and not, and even had slotted steel daggers.  Your test, then, is completely wrong.  It should be noted, though, that slotted ones get stacked with non-slotted ones, which is inconvenient in many ways.

[DragoonKain3]

I've got to check my game again, but I'm pretty sure there's a store somewhere that sells T7 non-unique weapons, and all of them are 3-slotted. So no, I'm pretty sure this isn't just limited to daggers, AFAIK.

[Nooneyouknow13]

T0rin3 wrote...

..
2) Only 1 dagger can hold 3 runes?

Any tier 7 weapon purchased from Mikhail Dryden at least will always have 3 slots.  If you need proff, I can take a screen shot of all 4 of my 3 slot Crow Daggers.

Modifié par Nooneyouknow13, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:48 .

[Scyles]

metatrans wrote...
Fire Weapons/Frost Weapons (variable bonus based on Mage's spellpower, have observed up to +10 per attack)

From what I've gathered of others' posts, Telekinetic Weapons stacks with Fire/Frost for a similar attack bonus.  People are saying they've had as much as +14 from Fire/Frost alone.
I wonder if salves stack as well?

[metatrans]

TK, Fire, and Frost are stackable if you have different mages casting them (only one weapon buff per mage). I'm quite sure that TK is not increasing the damage from Frost Weapons though. You could see a +14 if you had 10 from Frost Weapons and a +4 frost rune. the game will definitely sum "same colored" damage sources, so when i slot a pair of expert lightning runes i see +6 pop on the floating combat damage.



TK weapons adds to armor penetration so its damage will be summed into the white colored floating combat numbers. for all practical purposes armor penetration is equivalent to straight +damage as long as the enemy still has armor remaining to be penetrated (pretty sure there's no such thing as negative armor in this game). i'm pretty sure TK can add up to +10 armor penetration if you had a high enough spellpower. so its basically equivalent to fire and frost weapons with a different resistance type (checks remaining enemy armor vs. fire/frost resistance).