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[Ieldra]

So here they are, the Spectres.

They are called when failure is not an option
They do whatever it takes to get the job done.
Occasionally, one crosses a line too many - and nobody cares as long as it stays secret and the Council's interests don't suffer.

Doesn't sound too different from Cerberus to me. Except that the Spectres don't set their own policy. That doesn't make a great deal of difference for their victims though. They might as well be terrorists. The difference between secret police and terrorist is a matter of where you stand.

So why are people proud to be Spectres but hate Cerberus? In fact, it's because Cerberus' evil is pushed into our faces at every turn while the Spectres' remains mostly in the background, except for that little thing at the Dracon Trade Center. So the difference is...propaganda.

Spectres are above the law. Can anyone really believe they don't occasionally cross a moral event horizon like Cerberus did on Pragia? I don't believe that for a second. Given what the Council did to the quarians, I find it very plausible they wouldn't care overmuch if things were kept suitably secret.

[Seboist]

Was this inspired by my last post in the TIM thread?

But yeah, one can't claim to have the moral high ground against working with Cerberus(even if only against the Collectors/Reapers) after being part of a space gestapo force that's tasked to keep the ruling racial caste system in power no matter the cost.

The best character interaction on the subject:

"Paragon Shepard: Spectres don't blow up buildings filled with innocent people!

Tela Vasir: Sure we do! We get our hands dirty so the council doesn't have to. The councilors might complain about our methods to soothe their consciences but they never look too closely."

This makes Shepard look like a naive moron ^

[1136342t54_]

Here are some differences you didn't mention.

Spectres do not have a chain of command. Cerberus does.

While Spectres answer to the Council they mostly do what they believe is best in the situation. Vasir even mentions how the Council never tries to look to closely in missions the Spectres do so they can deny involvement.

Spectres do not stand for an ideal they are meant to prevent wars. Cerberus purpose is to advance humanity.

This is a large difference here. Spectres while on missions can have their own beliefs on how a situation should be solved and they may take that chance to advance their race but in most cases the mission is still accomplished. Cerberus how ever is purely for the advancement for the human race period. The other alien races are in a way either tools or obstacles to them.

Spectres are not terrorists nor can even be labeled since they are a legal organization.

This one is my main gripe with your post so far. Spectres are not Terrorists and most peoples definition of Terrorist is usually wrong and opinionated. What Spectres do are to prevent wars and take down threats to galactic security period. Maybe their ways are at times to extreme but at times they have no choice. The Council specifically created the Spectres because they know certain situations requires cold logic and sacrifices need to be made.

Spectres have a higher success rate than Cerberus.

Not everyone really likes Spectres but look at Cerberus. I will admit their ideology isn't bad and they have the resources and capability to make humanity a great power. However they fail at that multiple times. Half of their experiments go awry most of the time and they have done little to help humanity in general. Face it Spectres have simply saved more lives and done more good than Cerberus ever had.

Regarding Spectres doing something like Pragia. Why would they do that? The only Spectre who would do something like would be Saren and we know what happened to him. Remember Spectres don't need to do something like the Pragia incident and using that as an example of regular Cerberus activities is false. The base had went rogue anyway.

No one is saying that Spectres are good but they are simply more liked than Cerberus because they have actually saved more lives and likely Galactic civilization on multiple occasions.

[LorDC]

OP pretty much sums it all up. Look at Spectres we know. Saren who was praised as best Spectre of present time? He didn't care about collateral damage at all. Tela Vasir? Same here. Nihilus. He was shown as a good guy but still he took hostage to get Justicar off his back. Yeah, good guys obviously.

[Freestate2nd]

I think that one of revelations of mass effect 3 is that the cerberus actions are ALWAYS aproved by the alliance,they only did the dirty job.All the races of the council are making reaper research too,these explains the suspicious tolerance about saren actions and the denial of reapers existence in mass effect 2.

[1136342t54_]

LorDC wrote...

OP pretty much sums it all up. Look at Spectres we know. Saren who was praised as best Spectre of present time? He didn't care about collateral damage at all. Tela Vasir? Same here. Nihilus. He was shown as a good guy but still he took hostage to get Justicar off his back. Yeah, good guys obviously.

Who says they are good guys? There are many differences between Spectres and Cerberus. One organization has failed many many more times than the Spectres have.

[LorDC]

1136342t54 wrote...
Spectres do not have a chain of command. Cerberus does.

While Spectres answer to the Council they mostly do what they believe is best in the situation. Vasir even mentions how the Council never tries to look to closely in missions the Spectres do so they can deny involvement.

Don't see how it is relevant to discussion. For that matter TIM also gives cell leaders a good deal of freedom in their actions.

1136342t54 wrote...
Spectres do not stand for an ideal they are meant to prevent wars. Cerberus purpose is to advance humanity.

This is a large difference here. Spectres while on missions can have their own beliefs on how a situation should be solved and they may take that chance to advance their race but in most cases the mission is still accomplished. Cerberus how ever is purely for the advancement for the human race period. The other alien races are in a way either tools or obstacles to them.

This is highly debatable. Council only enforces peace as long as it serves Council races benefit. And Cerberus is promoting war too. Again, advancing human race is not a bad thing in itself.

1136342t54 wrote...
Spectres are not terrorists nor can even be labeled since they are a legal organization.

This one is my main gripe with your post so far. Spectres are not Terrorists and most peoples definition of Terrorist is usually wrong and opinionated. What Spectres do are to prevent wars and take down threats to galactic security period. Maybe their ways are at times to extreme but at times they have no choice. The Council specifically created the Spectres because they know certain situations requires cold logic and sacrifices need to be made.

Cerberus can't be labeled as terrorists too as they don't use terror as their tactics.

1136342t54 wrote...
Spectres have a higher success rate than Cerberus.

Not everyone really likes Spectres but look at Cerberus. I will admit their ideology isn't bad and they have the resources and capability to make humanity a great power. However they fail at that multiple times. Half of their experiments go awry most of the time and they have done little to help humanity in general. Face it Spectres have simply saved more lives and done more good than Cerberus ever had.

Statetments like this without having complete statistics of both Cerberus and Spectres operations are null.

[Labrev]

 Good topic, I'll get around to posting here in-depth when I can.

[Arkitekt]

Notice though that Kaidan or Ashley are spectres now, Saphra. That doesn't change your maths, but it improves the odds there.

[marshalleck]

1136342t54 wrote...

Spectres are not terrorists nor can even be labeled since they are a legal organization.

How deliciously naive.

[1136342t54_]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Spectres do not have a chain of command. Cerberus does.

Yes, and Cerberus is also bigger. So what?

Its a simple difference I'm not sure what your getting at. 

Spectres do not stand for an ideal they are meant to prevent wars. Cerberus purpose is to advance humanity.

Spectres exist to advance the Council. Cerberus exists to advance humanity. There is not a large difference. They are each covert agents of their respective interested party. The only difference is that one is officially sanctioned and the other is not. They each fulfill the same role however.

Read the Codex and wiki. Spectres do not exist to advance the council the exist to protect Citadel Space and prevent large conflicts.

Spectres are not terrorists nor can even be labeled since they are a legal organization.

You need to get out more, kid. Legality has nothing to do with terrorism. Just ask the Arab gutter.

So you are already starting to call me kid now how mature. I also like how you again skip over my entire explanation. How kind. Read it completely Cerberus nor the Spectres are terrorists period. Their purposes are different enough that they can't be simply labeled Terrorists. 

Spectres have a higher success rate than Cerberus.

Bull****. We've only seen one successful Spectre to date and that Spectre is the player. All other Spectres we've met have been killed.

Most of those Spectres were killed by other Spectres. In the game, Codex and even CDN we see examples of Spectres succeeding in their missions. Hell the Spectres are some of the main reasons the Council didn't get overtaken by the Krogan so quickly. 

Cerberus' success rate is just fine. They have very few outright failures. If you want me to make a list I will.

Its not necessarily bad with the crap they actually have to do but their main objective usually falls flat. When it comes to experiments dealing with AI and Reaper tech they fail usually due to incompetence of a few scientists.

Regarding Spectres doing something like Pragia. Why would they do that?

I don't know, ask Saren. He wasn't branded a traitor because of his secret labs or bases. The only thing that got him nabbed was that he was fingered with Nihlus' death, the attack on Eden Prime, and humanity was raising a storm about it.

Really? Okay just read my entire post since I already mentioned Saren in it and explained how he was the one Spectre who had done that.

Cerberus saved more lives in ME2 than any Spectre has any done with the exception of Shepard in ME1.

Cerberus took little direct action in ME2. Sure they aided Shepard heavily but I'm not going to necessarily reward them with saving the Galaxy. That would be taking complete credit. In a way that would be like saying that the Council basically saved the Galaxy in ME1.

I seriously advise you to read my entire post because I explained each point just so I wouldn't have to respond to each and every point like this.

[LorDC]

On a side note. It amuses me very much when people claim that Cerberus fails a lot. Cerberus was set up shortly after the end of FCW and is active for three decades. It owns several large corporations. It can pull up advanced research projects. It has spies in every corner of the galaxy. It has support of very wealthy individuals. And it was all started by one man. Seriously, if they failed as much as people claim they would have had to shut down their operations long time ago.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Doesn't sound too different from Cerberus to me. Except that the Spectres don't set their own policy. That doesn't make a great deal of difference for their victims though. They might as well be terrorists. The difference between secret police and terrorist is a matter of where you stand.

So why are people proud to be Spectres but hate Cerberus? In fact, it's because Cerberus' evil is pushed into our faces at every turn while the Spectres' remains mostly in the background, except for that little thing at the Dracon Trade Center. So the difference is...propaganda.

Spectres are above the law. Can anyone really believe they don't occasionally cross a moral event horizon like Cerberus did on Pragia? I don't believe that for a second. Given what the Council did to the quarians, I find it very plausible they wouldn't care overmuch if things were kept suitably secret.

The difference between  a Spectre and Cerberus is that one is an individual where the other is an organisation.
As such, a Spectre is worth what the individual worth where an organisation worth is depending on its politics.
That's reason enough to kill another Spectre when he goes wrong, and that's enough to destroy that Cerberus which doesn't care about doing evil to reach it's goal.
TIM, I've got a bullet with your name on it.

[1136342t54_]

marshalleck wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

Spectres are not terrorists nor can even be labeled since they are a legal organization.

How deliciously naive.

Considering that I'm going with technicality then yes they aren't terrorists. Hell Cerberus aren't really terrorists in my eyes. They aren't good people and hell in ME3 can be considered much worse than terrorists. Even 1 Spectre can be considered much much worse than a terrorist. I'm not saying they aren't a terrorist is a good thing its just I disagree with the term. Depending on the Spectre you could say sociopathic, evil maybe a psychopath? Spectres as a organization? Not necessarily at least not during peace time.

Now during a time of war I would be more inclined to agree with the terrorist label. Look at what they did to the Krogan. Blowing up anti matter refineries. Plunging whole planets into darkness that kind of stuff.

[Ieldra]

@1136342t54:
A few points:
(1) Terrorism done by the state remains that even if it's legal. Also I have not said the Spectres were that, only that from the viewpoint of their innocent victims it would make no difference if they were.

(2) Cerberus are the designated villains, of course they aren't allowed to be overly successful. That would mean they actually have a point. Can't have that.... [/sarcasm]

(3) Wars don't appear to concern the Council overmuch unless they're forced to take part. What Spectres do is to maintain the status quo and keep the Council in power. I fail to see why that is preferable to using the same methods to advance humanity's interests.

Mainly I don't necessarily disagree that the Spectre's (or Cerberus') methods might sometimes be necessary to achieve certain goals. I only want to point out the double standard that it appears to be OK for them to advance their interests that way but not for Cerberus to advance humanity's interests.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 septembre 2011 - 06:52 .

[1136342t54_]

LorDC wrote...

On a side note. It amuses me very much when people claim that Cerberus fails a lot. Cerberus was set up shortly after the end of FCW and is active for three decades. It owns several large corporations. It can pull up advanced research projects. It has spies in every corner of the galaxy. It has support of very wealthy individuals. And it was all started by one man. Seriously, if they failed as much as people claim they would have had to shut down their operations long time ago.

They are good at building their organization and getting a information network but what have they really done for humanity other than bring shepard back to life?

[SandTrout]

Never was a big fan of either. Didn't prevent me from using both in order to achieve my goals though.

Who says they are good guys? There are many differences between Spectres and Cerberus. One organization has failed many many more times than the Spectres have.

This is an assumption, and a poor one at that. We have seen more nominally 'successful' Cerberus operations than successful Spectre ops, even by a proportional basis. You can, legitimately, claim that we never hear about Successful Spectre ops, and we probably don't hear about the failures, either, but the same rule applies to Cerberus.

[SandTrout]

1136342t54 wrote...

They are good at building their organization and getting a information network but what have they really done for humanity other than bring shepard back to life?

Advanced human biotic research and amps, eased Human/Salarian relations by replacing a troblesome pope, aided in the development of the SR2, learned more than anyone, possibly excluding the STG, about Indoctrination, developed a means to control large numbers of Geth.

That's just off the top of my head.

[1136342t54_]

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...

@1136342t54:
A few points:
(1) Terrorism done by the state remains that even if it's legal. Also I have not said the Spectres were that, only that from the viewpoint of their innocent victims it would make no difference if they were.
[/quote]
Meh thats possible.

quote]
(2) Cerberus are the designated villains, of course they aren't allowed to be overly successful. That would mean they actually have a point. Can't have that....
[/quote]
I don't really buy it. Even villains can be very successful at their goals. Cerberus have many successes but most of the failures that we see are too advance humanity and help fight the Reapers. Most of the time they failed at their goal or the incompetence of a few scientists screwed up a successful project.
[quote]
(3) Wars don't appear to concern the Council overmuch unless they're forced to take part. What Spectres do is to maintain the status quo and keep the Council in power. I fail to see why that is preferable to using the same methods to advance humanity's interests.
[/quote]
Considering that the Council is considering letting one of their own Spectres be tried for war crimes to avoid war seems they care. Hell they wanted to avoid war with the Terminus which was part of the reason for getting the beacon and sending Spectres for the job.

Mainly I don't necessarily disagree that the Spectre's (or Cerberus') methods might sometimes be necessary to achieve certain goals. I only want to point out the double standard that it appears to be OK for them to advance their interests that way but not for Cerberus to advance humanity's interests.


[/quote]

[LorDC]

1136342t54 wrote...

LorDC wrote...

On a side note. It amuses me very much when people claim that Cerberus fails a lot. Cerberus was set up shortly after the end of FCW and is active for three decades. It owns several large corporations. It can pull up advanced research projects. It has spies in every corner of the galaxy. It has support of very wealthy individuals. And it was all started by one man. Seriously, if they failed as much as people claim they would have had to shut down their operations long time ago.

They are good at building their organization and getting a information network but what have they really done for humanity other than bring shepard back to life?

And what Spectres did for humanity(or galaxy if you prefer) aside from helping millions year old giant omnicidal spaceship?

[LGTX]

Kinda similar, yeah... one difference is probably the scale. Cerberus is a multi-cell organization, while Spectres operate alone or in small groups. Then again, a member of the latter had ties with Shadow Broker and got a significant merc firepower watching her back.

The fault I find in the post is that it implies all Spectres are dedicated to overstepping morals to advance the Council, just as Cerberus is. Truthfully, each Spectre applies his/her own morals and defuses situations with various degress of casualties and/or political blowback, we just haven't seen those "neutral" types yet. Well we can roleplay as one, but that's irrelevant.

Modifié par LGTX, 20 septembre 2011 - 06:58 .