260 réponses à ce sujet

[nelly21]

Is there really a question the Council was stonewalling the investigation? The question is how much they knew. I'm guessing it's standard procedure for the Council to run interference for investigations of Spectres. However, somebody somewhere has to have asked the million dollar question: "Why was Saren even on Eden Prime?"

I'm thinking the Council realized something didn't smell right and put up the wall to cover their butts.

[Ieldra]

TobyHasEyes wrote...
I agree with your understanding of biology and the extent to which is can be relevant here

 And I wouldn't dismiss the desire for human dominance as being incorrect, or failing to meet some 'objective moral standard', as I don't believe in such a standard

 At the same time, it is worth clarifying that one might hold a stance advocating the co-operation of races, and standing against human dominance, purely on the basis of their finding it a more desirable of affairs

I am aware that that recognition was implicit in your post too, but for the purpose of this discussion I wished to highlight it

Definitely. I said it goes both ways. I would want to stress, though, that humanity's rise to a pre-eminent position in galactic civilization and co-operation between species are not mutually exclusive. More about that later... 

[Xilizhra]

Why does everybody think that Spectres, the Council's lawless enforcers, are heroes, and not terrorists? Because the Council, the ruling faction, declared them as such. They give a lofty speech, create a solemn atmosphere around the title, viola.

Given their individualism, plenty are genuine heroes. Apparently not your Shepard, of course.

Why does everybody think that Cerberus are evil, even though they're a really small organization that operates in secret, and little is known about them, and their body count is completely insignificant in comparison, say, to blue suns? The Council propaganda. Who cares about the blue suns? They're just bandits without a purpose beyond personal profit. Cerberus has the purpose. And the Council doesn't like it. They won't surrender their power. They like it, you see.

Plus their high-profile atrocities carried out in the name of their cause.

They failed the ultimate evolutionary test. They completely missed the Reaper threat. Despite all the warnings, all the signs of danger. Despite being outright told what was going on. Several times.

That's only a failure if you go extinct.

[Valdrane78]

Xilizhra wrote...

They failed the ultimate evolutionary test. They completely missed the Reaper threat. Despite all the warnings, all the signs of danger. Despite being outright told what was going on. Several times.

That's only a failure if you go extinct.

I am goign to have to agree with the failure part on this one.  The Council has been told multipel times by severa lpeopel that the Reapers are comming and that they are a threat, simply ignoring that threat because they don't want to believe it is a failure in terms of their leadership.  Finally acting when the threat is walking through your front door does not negate the fact they had prior knowledge and failed to act.  By ignoring the warnings they have directly set in motion actions which have have cost the lives of millions, if not billions of people.  They are tasked with th eprotection of th epeopl eunder their rule, which they have failed to do in spades.

However, they are not the only giovernment to do so, the Alliance is as equally responsible as the council, as are the other governments of the varyign species.

[Leonia]

nelly21 wrote...

Is there really a question the Council was stonewalling the investigation? The question is how much they knew. I'm guessing it's standard procedure for the Council to run interference for investigations of Spectres. However, somebody somewhere has to have asked the million dollar question: "Why was Saren even on Eden Prime?"

I'm thinking the Council realized something didn't smell right and put up the wall to cover their butts.

Indeed, I always had wondered why Saren was so interested in the files that Nihlus had. Maybe the Council was beginning to distrust him prior to Eden Prime and Nihlus knew something about it? The pair of them were colleagues, if he really wanted information he could have asked for it unless something had soured in their relationship.

Or maybe I am thinking too much about it. The files could have just contained pertent information that the Reapers wanted to get their hands on.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Definitely. I said it goes both ways. I would want to stress, though, that humanity's rise to a pre-eminent
position in galactic civilization and co-operation between species are not mutually exclusive. More about that later... 

I look forward to reading more on that (and totally agree that they do not have to be mutually exclusive goals).

Modifié par leonia42, 22 septembre 2011 - 02:02 .

[Xilizhra]

I am goign to have to agree with the failure part on this one. The Council has been told multipel times by severa lpeopel that the Reapers are comming and that they are a threat, simply ignoring that threat because they don't want to believe it is a failure in terms of their leadership. Finally acting when the threat is walking through your front door does not negate the fact they had prior knowledge and failed to act. By ignoring the warnings they have directly set in motion actions which have have cost the lives of millions, if not billions of people. They are tasked with th eprotection of th epeopl eunder their rule, which they have failed to do in spades.

They've only denied things to Shepard. They might well be making their own plans and not revealed them to the Cerberus pawn.

[Barquiel]

laecraft wrote...

Look past the labels. Look at the core of things. The galaxy is still alive because of Cerberus. And no thanks to the Council. That's the core of everything.

incorrect

Mass Effect 1
- a spectre (an elite agent of the Council) saved the galaxy. The council gave Shepard intel (Kirrahe's team).
- Cerberus murdered an alliance admiral and tried to kill Shepard...not very helpful, if you ask me

Mass Effect 2
- Shepard and Cerberus saved the human colonies in the terminus systems, not the galaxy.

Mass Effect 3
- Cerberus is out to kill Shepard and cerberus forces defend a reaper in one of the trailers. Again, not very helpful.

[Valdrane78]

Xilizhra wrote...

I am goign to have to agree with the failure part on this one. The Council has been told multipel times by severa lpeopel that the Reapers are comming and that they are a threat, simply ignoring that threat because they don't want to believe it is a failure in terms of their leadership. Finally acting when the threat is walking through your front door does not negate the fact they had prior knowledge and failed to act. By ignoring the warnings they have directly set in motion actions which have have cost the lives of millions, if not billions of people. They are tasked with th eprotection of th epeopl eunder their rule, which they have failed to do in spades.

They've only denied things to Shepard. They might well be making their own plans and not revealed them to the Cerberus pawn.

If this were true, then the Reapers would not have been able to gain a major foothold in our galaxy because Council forces would have been atleast partially ready for them.  But we know that all the races are doing their own thing.  But from what we know the Reapers are all over the place attacking th emajor species.

[Valdrane78]

Barquiel wrote...



Mass Effect 3
- Cerberus is out to kill Shepard and cerberus forces defend a reaper in one of the trailers. Again, not very helpful.

It has been said that the Cerberus is not out to actually kill Shep, so they just keep getting in eachother's way.  I'll have to find the link when Iget back from work.

[nelly21]

Barquiel wrote...

Mass Effect 2
- Shepard and Cerberus saved the human colonies in the terminus systems, not the galaxy.

Not disagreeing with the rest of the stuff you said but this isn't true. The Collectors were focusing on humanity. It is clearly stated in the Collector ship that they are targeting Earth. We know that they were building a reaper.

You think the baby reaper was gonna hang out in the Terminus and play some xbox?

Lookit, Cerberus are not good guys. They are completely amoral. I wouldn't invite them to my kid's birthday party. But, as I stated before, if we beat the reapers, it'll be because of Shepard. Shepard wouldn't be around if it weren't for Cerberus. Hell, the reapers would already be kicking our galactic asses considering it Shep that stopped them in Arrival.

[Sajuro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

Read the Codex and wiki. Spectres do not exist to advance the council the exist to protect Citadel Space and prevent large conflicts.

Wow. There is no point talking to you. Have a nice day.

I know, he doesn't agree with you and everything.

[Barquiel]

nelly21 wrote...

You think the baby reaper was gonna hang out in the Terminus and play some xbox?

I honestly haven't the slightest idea.

The collectors abducted humans in the terminus systems because the alliance didn't defend these colonies.

- The collector cruiser was destroyed by a frigate -> not very impressive (attacking earth with one cruiser?)
- The baby reaper was far from complete (destroyed by hand weapons!)

[Sajuro]

Valdrane78 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...



Mass Effect 3
- Cerberus is out to kill Shepard and cerberus forces defend a reaper in one of the trailers. Again, not very helpful.

It has been said that the Cerberus is not out to actually kill Shep, so they just keep getting in eachother's way.  I'll have to find the link when Iget back from work.

while trying to kill Shepard of course

[Izhalezan]

Barquiel wrote...

Mass Effect 2
- Shepard and Cerberus saved the human colonies in the terminus systems, not the galaxy.

Talk to Jacob, he tells you about a time he and Miranda stopped a Batarian plot to release a biological weapon on the CItadel, it was his first Cerberus mission from the sound of it.

[1136342t54_]

Golden Owl wrote...
Did I say that?....No....I did not...Just not allowing the Council to wash their hands of their responsibilities in it.

Then its pointless to compare the Council directly to Cerberus. At best you can compare them to the Illusive Man.

 Your clutching at straws 113....I am currently replaying ME1....Want me to gather the proof?...I would be more than happy to...word for word in fact.

No I'm not since I'm basically going off what Miranda said. ME1 never really specified the purpose of the experiments other than some type of super soldier or something. Miranda clarified that for us.

False....Kahlee Sanders lover boy Jiro was tasked with administrating Gillian doses of chemicals supplied by Cerberus via Paul Grayson's deliveries in 'Ascension'....Page 125 through to page 148....the escape was spurred because of this fact, not the other way around.

To be honest you still haven't proven much with that post even though you didn't clarify what exactly the doses were doing to her. Luckily I remember that part and yeah that last dose nearly killed her.

I meant to say killed out right. Still what did you expect Paul Grayson isn't an entirely innocent person and has done some horrible things for Cerberus and still betrayed them. Like I said I don't like it but remember he did betray them. Experimenting on him isn't even the worse thing they have done. Although it is arguably the stupidest thing.

But didn't you previously state Cerberus hadn't been involved in Assassinations until I pointed out otherwise?

No if I did my mistake

...Oh and my apologies, I forgot to mention the eezo dumps on the human colonies in an attempt to make more Biotics....most of the unborn babes die in utero or are born with numerous nasty problems (I can get the stats and direct words and source if you wish) upon exposure, a very small percentage are born with Biotics...thats not sickeningly ruthless and on par?

If you want to play the numbers game? I'd still say no. What Spectres done and continuosly have been doing are all in all much more destructive at times than Cerberus. Am I saying Cerberus is better because of it? Hell no in fact they could have been the Alliance version of the STG but they are too freelance and are liable to hurt the Alliance more than help it. Although a Rogue Spectre is no better at times.

 Refer to above forementioned activities....unless you would like me to extend the list further?

I have stop turning this into a pissing match what is your point in trying to scavenge for anything Cerberus did? 

You obviously have more faith in Miranda and other Cerberus lackies than I do...Miranda's SB Dossier itself describes her as ruthless....Then there's Pel and Kai Leng, the rules so far have been at all cost.

Kai Leng is an Assassin not a genocidal maniac. Sure he is a sociopath but he isn't a Spectre. He can kill the extra civillian here and there but if he goes too far of the mission Cerberus is taking care of him. Don't remember Pei. No duh Miranda is ruthless but she is on the more reasonable practical camp of Cerberus. LIke I said if they were reasonably provoked by an enemy similar to the Collectors or Reapers sure they would do it but just committing genocide with little reason other than "Your not human." Is unlikely for them. Cerberus sees the use in other species. 

[1136342t54_]

Aeowyn wrote...

I disagree. I see Cerberus as morally grey, but DLCs on failed experiments and ME3 shows that BioWare doesn't want to show Cerberus as grey. After all, didn't Casey Hudson say "Cerberus had a bad experiment go wrong again. Big surprise!" when Overlord was introduced?

The DLC showed how one Cerberus scientist is ****ed up and screwed his brother by turning him into Overlord. Most of Cerberus failed experiments had reasonable goals. The Thresher Maw attack however was mostly wrong and a failure.

In general they are mostly morally grey pre ME3. Hell there morality level could be similar to the Spectres as a whole. Its just that Cerberus cause less collateral damage.

[sponge56]

1136342t54 wrote...

 The Thresher Maw attack however was mostly wrong and a failure.

Mostly wrong

It was ****ed up thats what it was

[1136342t54_]

sponge56 wrote...
Mostly wrong

It was ****ed up thats what it was

I could honestly see a reason why they would do it but to test it on Alliance soldiers is just stupid. Now testing Thresher Maw acid is retarded simply because we wouldn't be able to create a natural defense for it. Unless ME tech is far more advanced than I thought.

[Ieldra]

1136342t54 wrote...
In general they [Cerberus] are mostly morally grey pre ME3. Hell there morality level could be similar to the Spectres as a whole.

Exactly that was the point I'm making. There has been an "evil for evil's sake" moment in the Akuze experiments, but mostly Cerberus are just consequentialists who count the cost worth the result just as the Spectres do. Talking about galactic stability vs. human dominance is all very well when galactic stability equals supporting the interests of the Council species. Stability is only of value if you agree with the established power structure.

[Seboist]

Ieldra2 wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...
In general they [Cerberus] are mostly morally grey pre ME3. Hell there morality level could be similar to the Spectres as a whole.

Exactly that was the point I'm making. There has been an "evil for evil's sake" moment in the Akuze experiments, but mostly Cerberus are just consequentialists who count the cost worth the result just as the Spectres do. Talking about galactic stability vs. human dominance is all very well when galactic stability equals supporting the interests of the Council species. Stability is only of value if you agree with the established power structure.

We know practically nothing about the Akuze experiments and the little we do is from some delirious shellshocked soldier. It's a shame ME2 didn't elaborate on it.

[Aeowyn]

Seboist wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...
In general they [Cerberus] are mostly morally grey pre ME3. Hell there morality level could be similar to the Spectres as a whole.

Exactly that was the point I'm making. There has been an "evil for evil's sake" moment in the Akuze experiments, but mostly Cerberus are just consequentialists who count the cost worth the result just as the Spectres do. Talking about galactic stability vs. human dominance is all very well when galactic stability equals supporting the interests of the Council species. Stability is only of value if you agree with the established power structure.

We know practically nothing about the Akuze experiments and the little we do is from some delirious shellshocked soldier. It's a shame ME2 didn't elaborate on it.

Yup. I'm very interested to know more about the Akuze experiment, considering that the scientists Toombs was killing were former Alliance scientists.

[Seboist]

Aeowyn wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...
In general they [Cerberus] are mostly morally grey pre ME3. Hell there morality level could be similar to the Spectres as a whole.

Exactly that was the point I'm making. There has been an "evil for evil's sake" moment in the Akuze experiments, but mostly Cerberus are just consequentialists who count the cost worth the result just as the Spectres do. Talking about galactic stability vs. human dominance is all very well when galactic stability equals supporting the interests of the Council species. Stability is only of value if you agree with the established power structure.

We know practically nothing about the Akuze experiments and the little we do is from some delirious shellshocked soldier. It's a shame ME2 didn't elaborate on it.

Yup. I'm very interested to know more about the Akuze experiment, considering that the scientists Toombs was killing were former Alliance scientists.

Hackett seemed to know more than what he was letting on too.

[Barquiel]

laecraft wrote...

If you don't object to asari dominance, then why do you object to human dominance? Do you truly think that we'd do so much worse?

yes