260 réponses à ce sujet

[1136342t54_]

SandTrout wrote...
 Advanced human biotic research and amps,

Research they kept to themselves.

eased Human/Salarian relations by replacing a troblesome pope,

Interesting I was pretty sure the pope  they killed wasn't pro human.

aided in the development of the SR2,

Yes that is a success.

learned more than anyone, possibly excluding the STG,about Indoctrination,

That is true but they don't use the information properly.

developed a means to control large numbers of Geth.

Remember how incompetence failed them on that one?

[Barquiel]

Cerberus -> I disagree with both their goals and their means.
Council -> I agree with their goals

The council doesn't want to oppress all non-council species. All member species are free to close their embassies on the citadel if they wish (-> Batarians)

The council members/spectres answer to their respective governments. Cerberus answers to a single unelected individual with freaky eyes who is accountable to no one.

As far as we know, spectres don't always choose the most sadistic way to achieve their goals.

[1136342t54_]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Wow. There is no point talking to you. Have a nice day.

So I use info from the Codex, wiki, in game and CDN so you just ignore it? Sure I've said many many times that the Spectres aren't good and can even advance the goals of their individual species if they choose to do it but in general they usually accomplish their task. Its just the way they do it isn't known.

[LGTX]

Overlord failed because of one crazed scientist being pushed to his limits by deadlines. It was a complete technical success and, as far as I can see, bears quite the fruit in ME3.

[1136342t54_]

LGTX wrote...

Overlord failed because of one crazed scientist being pushed to his limits by deadlines. It was a complete technical success and, as far as I can see, bears quite the fruit in ME3.

Like I said before incompetence. They aren't necessarily bad in the scientific field but they always have that one or two stupid scientists screwing it up for them.

[LGTX]

Or the Shepard Interrupt But that doesn't count now, does it.

[Norken]

Cerberus agents are pushing an agenda of gaining advantages for a specific species, Specters are agents charged with handling crimes against the galaxy.

Specters are beyond the law that handles crimes against society because the stakes involved are such that the consequences of potential inaction due to moving at 'the speed of the law' are greater than the consequences of having a handful of agents beyond the law.

The US criminal justice system is a system for handling crimes against society, and would rather error on the side of letting a guilty person free than putting an innocent person in prison. For society in general, this is better than the reverse. Especially for a society with the level of technological advancement that US society had when they settled on their justice system.

However, fast-forward to modern times. Lets say someone is highly suspected of trying to set off a nuclear weapon in a major city, but there simply isn't sufficient evidence to convict them. Maybe they didn't do it, but how much potential damage to the many are we looking at by letting such a person go? That sort of a situation isn't something that the people who decided that letting a guilty person go free is better than putting an innocent person in prison could have even entertained. It even begs the question if it is really a crime against society or something else entirely.

Now fast-forward 400 years. The two-tiered legal system for council space makes a lot more sense. Specters are reserved for exploring, evaluating, and acting on crimes against the galaxy. While a standard legal system is for handling crimes against society. Specters are not technically supposed to deal with crimes against society, but being outside the criminal justice system and beyond regulation makes it VERY dangerous to draw the attention of a Specter. However, given the size of the galaxy, encountering a Specter would be something that the average person would never really need to worry about, so the inherent damage to society as a whole that Specters cause would be minimal.

[SandTrout]

1136342t54 wrote...

SandTrout wrote...
 Advanced human biotic research and amps,

Research they kept to themselves.

Incorrect: Ascencion project allowed Cerberus to diseminate huge ammounts of of information to Alliance scientists.

eased Human/Salarian relations by replacing a troblesome pope,

Interesting I was pretty sure the pope  they killed wasn't pro human.

Incorrect. They were both nominally 'pro-human', but the one the Cerberus planted was more comfortable with aliens.

Shadow Broker Dossier wrote...
2171 - Pope Clement XVI assassinated via rosary beads coated with sodium
nonacetate and dimethyl sulfoxide. Death attributed to age and heart
failure. Replacement, Pope Leo XIV, has eschatological beliefs in-line
with militarizing humanity; forgiving attitude to salarians re:
genophage proves useful for strategic alliances against turians.

learned more than anyone, possibly excluding the STG,about Indoctrination,

That is true but they don't use the information properly.

We don't know how they use that information, yet.

developed a means to control large numbers of Geth.

Remember how incompetence failed them on that one?

Fair enought that things went Fubar, but you asked what Cerberus had done for Humanity, and in spite of your accusations, Cerberus only keeps a limited amount of research results they do proprietary. Most results are covertly leaked to the Alliance.

[Ieldra]

[quote]1136342t54 wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
(2) Cerberus are the designated villains, of course they aren't allowed to be overly successful. That would mean they actually have a point. Can't have that....
[/quote]
I don't really buy it. Even villains can be very successful at their goals. Cerberus have many successes but most of the failures that we see are too advance humanity and help fight the Reapers. Most of the time they failed at their goal or the incompetence of a few scientists screwed up a successful project.
[/quote]
Actually, they weren't that unsuccessful. After all, they did save humanity from the Collectors by bringing Shepard back and sending him/her after them. Still, people appear to care more about their failures than their successes, and they stay villains even if they've saved humanity. 

[quote](3) Wars don't appear to concern the Council overmuch unless they're forced to take part. What Spectres do is to maintain the status quo and keep the Council in power. I fail to see why that is preferable to using the same methods to advance humanity's interests.
[/quote]
Considering that the Council is considering letting one of their own Spectres be tried for war crimes to avoid war seems they care. Hell they wanted to avoid war with the Terminus which was part of the reason for getting the beacon and sending Spectres for the job.[/quote]
If you mean Shepard, that's the Alliance, not the Council.

As for Eden Prime - you forget that this was a compromise minimum response. Risking a war would have absolutely justified. Had Shepard not come forward and been made a Spectre, they would have done.....nothing. Just to preserve the status quo, even in the face of an open attack on one of their allied species. Not that I necessarily blame them, but really humanity's wellbeing didn't mean a lot to them. Hear the turian council member refuse to send a fleet for the pittance of "a few dozen human colonies". A war between the geth and humanity would apparently have been overlooked, while a war involving the Council is of course undesirable. Again I find the attitude understandable, but I think some cynicsim regarding their motives is completely mandated. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 septembre 2011 - 07:09 .

[SandTrout]

1136342t54 wrote...

So I use info from the Codex, wiki, in game and CDN so you just ignore it? Sure I've said many many times that the Spectres aren't good and can even advance the goals of their individual species if they choose to do it but in general they usually accomplish their task. Its just the way they do it isn't known.

The idea that you accept this obvious propaganda as objective fact is laughable, I'll be honest.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus -> I disagree with both their goals and their means.
Council -> I agree with their goals

The council doesn't want to oppress all non-council species. All member species are free to close their embassies on the citadel if they wish (-> Batarians)

The council members/spectres answer to their respective governments. Cerberus answers to a single unelected individual with freaky eyes who is accountable to no one.

As far as we know, spectres don't always choose the most sadistic way to achieve their goals.

I like this argument... its short and to the point... and I agree with it. Its more about your own personal choices, wishes, and goals.

[Medhia Nox]

Didn't Cerberus leave their government (the Alliance) when that government wanted to close them down?

Isn't Cerberus funded by Earth based private organizations?

Aren't Cerberus operatives given jobs like: "Inject little girls with things and watch what happens?" and "Subject military personnel to death, torture, and experimentation."

----

Last I check - the Council hasn't asked me, Nihilus, or Saren to do any of these types of things.

Though - certainly, some Specters (Saren, Vasir, and Renegades) seem to follow the "Way of the Douchebag) but, that's totally their prerogative.

The worst the Council did was tell me that I'm not a child - and if I feel there's a problem ,they have empowered me to stop it. I'm grateful for that actually.

Better than having some obsessive compulsive, megalomaniac voyeur crawling up my arse to find out just what's going on up there. Not to mention how BAD he is at commanding his various research teams.

At any rate - neither of them are good or perfect. But I'd rather side with a more visible ruling body than some shadow organization. Cowardice isn't my thing.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 20 septembre 2011 - 07:10 .

[SandTrout]

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus -> I disagree with both their goals and their means.
Council -> I agree with their goals

The council doesn't want to oppress all non-council species. All member species are free to close their embassies on the citadel if they wish (-> Batarians)

So why, then, did the Turians conqure Shanxi in response to Humanity opening up a relay before we even knew of the council's existence, let alone agree to their conventions? Membership is not as voluntary as you seem to think.

The council members/spectres answer to their respective governments. Cerberus answers to a single unelected individual with freaky eyes who is accountable to no one.

The vast majority answer to the Big Three, out of BioWareOnlyKnows how many species that fall under the Council's authority.

As far as we know, spectres don't always choose the most sadistic way to achieve their goals.

Neither does Cerberus. Lazarus, Derelict Reaper, Firewalker, Ascension.

[1136342t54_]

SandTrout wrote...
The idea that you accept this obvious propaganda as objective fact is laughable, I'll be honest.

I'd assume I wouldn't have post a more comprehensive post about it since I have multiple times but it seems some won't care to actually read. I'm sure you see my views on Council as laughable since I've repeated multiple times that Spectres aren't good at all and sometimes their actions can amount to terrorism. WhenI say keep the peace and stability what do you think it means?

Keeping peace and stability is basically killing a lot of people, causing accidents that destroy Batarian space stations, assassinations etc. Sometimes it can be terrorism but keeping the peace, status quo or power is basically the same thing from a certain perspective. Sure it isn't perfect and hell the Spectres are far from a good group but their actions are successful enough that the Council tends to use them during their long period of peace.

[Ieldra]

Seboist wrote...
Was this inspired by my last post in the TIM thread?

Yes. I thought the double standard deserved a wider debate.

But yeah, one can't claim to have the moral high ground against working with Cerberus(even if only against the Collectors/Reapers) after being part of a space gestapo force that's tasked to keep the ruling racial caste system in power no matter the cost.

The best character interaction on the subject:

"Paragon Shepard: Spectres don't blow up buildings filled with innocent people!

Tela Vasir: Sure we do! We get our hands dirty so the council doesn't have to. The councilors might complain about our methods to soothe their consciences but they never look too closely."

This makes Shepard look like a naive moron

Just so. I love that Tela Vasir calls Shepard out on that. I regret that I can't let *her* live but she's just like Shepard. She'd never have stopped. I can respect such a person.

[1136342t54_]

SandTrout wrote...
Incorrect: Ascencion project allowed Cerberus to diseminate huge ammounts of of information to Alliance scientists.

Then  I was incorrect on that point (although I'm stil going to check again). They always have been good at advancing biotics but that never seemed to be very important in the long run.

2171 - Pope Clement XVI assassinated via rosary beads coated with sodium
nonacetate and dimethyl sulfoxide. Death attributed to age and heart
failure. Replacement, Pope Leo XIV, has eschatological beliefs in-line
with militarizing humanity; forgiving attitude to salarians re:
genophage proves useful for strategic alliances against turians.

So basically the second pope was far more pro human anyway? The first pope wasn't necessarily xenophobic he just didn't care for genocide. This pope was helpful but how helpful is a mystery since Christianity was big before aliens were discovered. It is probably still big now but likely less so.\\

We don't know how they use that information, yet.

Actually we do. In Retribution Illusive Man attempted experiments on Paul Grayson to turn him into a Reaper slave. It was a little too successful though. Also Cerberus operatives attempted to gain info from the Collector Base and they were yet again indoctrinated. Their research haven't been particularly useful in fact it is likely the main reason behind Cerberus little change of heart as of ME3

Fair enought that things went Fubar, but you asked what Cerberus had done for Humanity, and in spite of your accusations, Cerberus only keeps a limited amount of research results they do proprietary. Most results are covertly leaked to the Alliance.

I said Cerberus were usually successful 50% of the time. Remember Pragia? They failed at making a supersoldier horribly but the research helped them learn about biotics. They usually fail primary goals but are able to get some success from the failure.

[Barquiel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus -> I disagree with both their goals and their means.
Council -> I agree with their goals

The council doesn't want to oppress all non-council species.

How can dumb can you really be? Opressing other "lesser" races exactly what the Council does. Notice how the "lesser" races don't have any vote.

So why do you like the Council exactly?

The Batarians closed their embassy because they were not happy with a council decision.

Did anyone declare war on them? no
There isn't even an embargo.

The council oppresses no one.

[LGTX]

Didn't they bomb a planet where quarians were colonized? Or something... I don't remember, but it really struck me as disturbing. It was in the Galaxy Map, one of the planet descriptions. I think they then gave the world to elcor.

Modifié par LGTX, 20 septembre 2011 - 07:25 .

[1136342t54_]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Actually, they weren't that unsuccessful. After all, they did save humanity from the Collectors by bringing Shepard back and sending him/her after them. Still, people appear to care more about their failures than their successes, and they stay villains even if they've saved humanity.  

I've defended Cerberus more than once but at a certain point their failures almost screwed the Galaxy much worse than a Reaper could have. They aren't largely stupid its usually a few idiots that screw them up and Cerberus are liable to have a few idiots in each and every project for some reason.

If you mean Shepard, that's the Alliance, not the Council.

Alliance is a part of the Council. Shepard can easily be a Spectre at that time.

As for Eden Prime - you forget that this was a compromise minimum response. Risking a war would have absolutely justified. Had Shepard not come forward and been made a Spectre, they would have done.....nothing. Just to preserve the status quo, even in the face of an open attack on one of their allied species. Not that I necessarily blame them, but really humanity's wellbeing didn't mean a lot to them. Hear the turian council member refuse to send a fleet for the pittance of "a few dozen human colonies". A war between the geth and humanity would apparently have been overlooked, while a war involving the Council is of course undesirable. Again I find the attitude understandable, but I think some cynicsim regarding their motives is completely mandated. 

Actually a war with the Terminus would have effected everyone. Remember the Council has to defend Council space in some way. If they are unable to defend one non council race than what would be the point of having the Citadel and these embassies?

Also I never denied that part of the reason was for their own advancement. 

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 20 septembre 2011 - 07:27 .

[SandTrout]

1136342t54 wrote...

I'd assume I wouldn't have post a more comprehensive post about it since I have multiple times but it seems some won't care to actually read. I'm sure you see my views on Council as laughable since I've repeated multiple times that Spectres aren't good at all and sometimes their actions can amount to terrorism. WhenI say keep the peace and stability what do you think it means?

I didn't say your views were laughable, even if I consider them incorrect. The idea that the Spectres don't act in the Council's interest, based on a source that is pubilshed by the Council, however, is laughable. Its similar to going to the President's website to get the truth about the latest whitehouse scandle.

Keeping peace and stability is basically killing a lot of people, causing accidents that destroy Batarian space stations, assassinations etc. Sometimes it can be terrorism but keeping the peace, status quo or power is basically the same thing from a certain perspective. Sure it isn't perfect and hell the Spectres are far from a good group but their actions are successful enough that the Council tends to use them during their long period of peace.

We agree on that point. Peace and stability (stagnation) are definitely in the Council's interests. I, however, don't doubt for a second that the Council would use the Spectres to start a war, if it suited their interests, or simply kneecap certain rising nations in order to maintain their own dominance.

[Izhalezan]

Doesn't Miranda say that Cerberus is """Humanitys""" response to the Spectres, STG etc?

[1136342t54_]

SandTrout wrote...
I didn't say your views were laughable, even if I consider them incorrect. The idea that the Spectres don't act in the Council's interest, based on a source that is pubilshed by the Council, however, is laughable. Its similar to going to the President's website to get the truth about the latest whitehouse scandle.

The argument I believe was whether Spectres advance the Council races like Cerberus (thats how I took it). When in fact they don't. They protect council interests but don't necessarily advance it. Their are likely diplomatic missions or retrieval missions (like the beacon) that they may do but in general they protect Council interests especially in peace time.

We agree on that point. Peace and stability (stagnation) are definitely in the Council's interests. I, however, don't doubt for a second that the Council would use the Spectres to start a war, if it suited their interests, or simply kneecap certain rising nations in order to maintain their own dominance.

I wouldn't say they start wars necessarily especially since the Asar usually like diplomacy and Salarians want to end a war before it begins. They would of course handicap a nation so badly that it can't fight.

[mango smoothie]

I for one don't support the Council/Spectres or Cerberus, I'll work with any one of them if they want to help me, but I don't support them. I feel that they are both power hungry groups that want control on everything. They just have different methods of going about this.