260 réponses à ce sujet

[1136342t54_]

Actually Miranda mentions how TIM is in a way accountable to his private backers who are responsible for a good amount of Cerberus funding. The thing is they more or less let TIM run things.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Council isn't accountable to anyone that we know of.

And neither is Cerberus... TIM thinks hes untouchable.

Yet another similarity. Good.

The problem with Cerberus is that TIM does not have to negotiate with "equals" in order to pursue goals. The Council must sit there and debate whether or not a mission, a law, an official action of any type must be executed or vetod. This is both a great failsafe and a problem.

The Council can be cought in politics and debates for a long time before they decide to act. However their decision would most likely never endanger any of the council species. So its safe to assume that the Turians, the Asari, the Salarians, and the Humans are protected as they would not risk breaking the council up and have a Council species go rogue. I do not think they put the other species (non-Council Citadel species such as the Elcor, Hannar, Volus) in danger but I feel they only apease those species when there would be a major threat to them or Citadel space involving them. However the negotiations can last a long time and produce zero results. Its a stagnant system but a safe one.

So TIM and Cerberus have free reign on their actions. They can act more decisevly and more swiftly than the Council ever could. This is a strength, however there are no failsafes within the Cerberus hierarchy to allow for conflict withing missions and plans. If one Cerberus cell is filled with people that would never experiment on humans they would most likely be never assigned to do so. Another cell without any moral qualms about this would be assigned. The way the Cerberus Network is structured no cell knows of another cells activity. So even if TIM decided to start a project that the majority of Cerberus would object too the system alows TIM to stay unchallenged in his decisions. History has shown that when one individual amasses enough power it is hard to let go of that power even if it means risking the system and the health, liberties, and safety of the citizens who might become affected. I think in all of human history thus far there have only been two individuals that refused to rule a sovereign nation for an extended term of service even when the people asked them to. George Washington was one, and I believe a Russian pre-soviet but post monarchy era leader was another if I am not mistaken.

[Omega4RelayResident]

1136342t54 wrote...

Actually Miranda mentions how TIM is in a way accountable to his private backers who are responsible for a good amount of Cerberus funding. The thing is they more or less let TIM run things.

They have no direct knowlege of Cerberus activities... the network is set up so that there are no security breaches of any kind what so ever. Independant cells do not know of each others actions... why would Human centrist financeers ever ask questions as long as TIM assures them things are going well and from time to time throws them a "bone" of results without ever disclosing any real information.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 20 septembre 2011 - 10:23 .

[1136342t54_]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
They have no direct knowlege of Cerberus activities... the network is set up so that there are no security breaches of any kind what so ever. Independant cells do not know of each others actions... why would Human centrist ever ask questions as long as TIM assures them things are going well and from time to time throws them a "bone" of results without ever disclosing any real information.

Those Human centrists have a lot of money put into Cerberus. They probably would like to actually know what the hell they are doing. Hell CDN talked about a large amount of arrests of Cerberus moles in the Alliance. Even the Turians were in on it. Well **** like that gets on the news you can't really hide it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

The problem with Cerberus is that TIM does not have to negotiate with "equals" in order to pursue goals. The Council must sit there and debate whether or not a mission, a law, an official action of any type must be executed or vetod. This is both a great failsafe and a problem.

So your problem isn't unaccountable power... but that TIM doesn't have two other compadres at the top of Cerberus?

The Council can be cought in politics and debates for a long time before they decide to act. However their decision would most likely never endanger any of the council species.

Are we talking about the same Council here? The one that has, repeatedly throught its history, let other races take the fall by deliberate action and inaction?

I think in all of human history thus far there have only been two individuals that refused to rule a sovereign nation for an extended term of service even when the people asked them to. George Washington was one, and I believe a Russian pre-soviet but post monarchy era leader was another if I am not mistaken.

Expand your history a bit.

[Omega4RelayResident]

1136342t54 wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
They have no direct knowlege of Cerberus activities... the network is set up so that there are no security breaches of any kind what so ever. Independant cells do not know of each others actions... why would Human centrist ever ask questions as long as TIM assures them things are going well and from time to time throws them a "bone" of results without ever disclosing any real information.

Those Human centrists have a lot of money put into Cerberus. They probably would like to actually know what the hell they are doing. Hell CDN talked about a large amount of arrests of Cerberus moles in the Alliance. Even the Turians were in on it. Well **** like that gets on the news you can't really hide it.

Claiming the financeers have any real knowlege of the missions is a supposition... nothing in the Codex or the books ever claimed that the finaceers have any knowlege of what is going on. From what Miranda has said it sounds like the financeers are kept at a happy level so that they keep "donating".

Also if you started to fund Cerberus and after like 2 years decided that it was a bad idea... would you back out and tell TIM, "Sorry this isnt my thing anymore?" I am 99% sure you would wind up dead within a week for backing out on Cerberus. They did after all assasinate someone they helped get into office before... and replaced them with a much more cooperative candidate.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Expand your history a bit.

George Washington was offerd a third term in office, but he decline stating that he did not want to become an appointed king... the thing he fought against in the war. There was one other person that did this for sure and I thought it was a Russian official pre-soviet era but post monarchy.

Expanded. I am not your history professor go look it up.

The rest was unclear and I dont know how to answer any of that.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Expand your history a bit.

George Washington was offerd a third term in office, but he decline stating that he did not want to become an appointed king... the thing he fought against in the war. There was one other person that did this for sure and I thought it was a Russian official pre-soviet era but post monarchy.

Expanded. I am not your history professor go look it up.

The rest was unclear and I dont know how to answer any of that.

I'm pretty sure Dean meant that there have been countless others throughout history who have declined (continued) power, as opposed to your "only two".

[Labrev]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Good topic, I'll get around to posting here in-depth when I can.

I'm back.


Spectres do more/less operate much like individual Cerberus cells do. Having said that, I'm not a fan of either! We know a lot more about Cerberus failures than Spectre failures, but the latter isn't exactly better when one of their agents attempts to bring about galactic armagaeddon at the hands of Sovereign/the Reapers.

I do see the upside in both entities, but they are both live on an extreme of having such little accountablity and inherent recklessness that I overall don't think can or should function for very long.

[Golden Owl]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@1136342t54:
A few points:
(1) Terrorism done by the state remains that even if it's legal. Also I have not said the Spectres were that, only that from the viewpoint of their innocent victims it would make no difference if they were.

(2) Cerberus are the designated villains, of course they aren't allowed to be overly successful. That would mean they actually have a point. Can't have that.... [/sarcasm]

(3) Wars don't appear to concern the Council overmuch unless they're forced to take part. What Spectres do is to maintain the status quo and keep the Council in power. I fail to see why that is preferable to using the same methods to advance humanity's interests.

Mainly I don't necessarily disagree that the Spectre's (or Cerberus') methods might sometimes be necessary to achieve certain goals. I only want to point out the double standard that it appears to be OK for them to advance their interests that way but not for Cerberus to advance humanity's interests.

Though I agree with your OP Ieldra...it is in fact a brilliant OP and spot on.....I don't agree with your second point here though....Success doesn't make someone right, just makes them successful at what they do....Villian derpiness is a product of 'Hollywood-itis', people generally don't want to see the bad guys win, ruins our rose colored glasses visions and fantasy emmersions....Whether Cerberus succeeds or not is no reflection on their morality.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 21 septembre 2011 - 12:10 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Expand your history a bit.

George Washington was offerd a third term in office, but he decline stating that he did not want to become an appointed king... the thing he fought against in the war. There was one other person that did this for sure and I thought it was a Russian official pre-soviet era but post monarchy.

Expanded. I am not your history professor go look it up.

The rest was unclear and I dont know how to answer any of that.

I'm pretty sure Dean meant that there have been countless others throughout history who have declined (continued) power, as opposed to your "only two".

I cant answer points that are unclear to me. At that point I might as well be a drunk that keeps rambling on. And yes I have only learned that there were only 2 leaders that have ever declined any permanent stay in power. Its not my job for me to try to research history in order to denounce my own argument. Its his job since he feels up to questioning it.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 20 septembre 2011 - 11:22 .

[1136342t54_]

Saphra Deden wrote...

If Cerberus starts straying from its goals it will lose funding.

This I doubt all of Cerberus funders kept funding them when news of attacks by the Cerberus on Council assets spring up. Hell I'd bet some stop supporting Cerberus during the end of Retribution. Cerberus was basically getting taken down by the Turians and some Alliance personnel.  Fears of reprisal and knowledge of some of the things Cerberus has been doing will cut some funding.

[Golden Owl]

Barquiel wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus -> I disagree with both their goals and their means.
Council -> I agree with their goals

The council doesn't want to oppress all non-council species.

How can dumb can you really be? Opressing other "lesser" races exactly what the Council does. Notice how the "lesser" races don't have any vote.

So why do you like the Council exactly?

The Batarians closed their embassy because they were not happy with a council decision.

Did anyone declare war on them? no
There isn't even an embargo.

The council oppresses no one.

Yes they do and blatant favortism towards the species most benefical to themselves....Take note of how much the Volus are given...yet the Quarians in desperate need of a planet are bombed off one the found and then passed onto the Elcor....That's not oppressive behaviour towards the Quarians?...also going so far as allowing work places to post "Not hiring Quarians" on the Citadel, the very seat of Council power?

Modifié par Golden Owl, 21 septembre 2011 - 12:06 .

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

If Cerberus starts straying from its goals it will lose funding.

But apparently acquire a huge army from elsewhere.

[1136342t54_]

Xilizhra wrote...

But apparently acquire a huge army from elsewhere.

They are helping giant Mecha Cthulu Spawn. Of course they are going to get an army from somewhere. Either indoctrination or cloning. Hell maybe both.

[Dean_the_Young]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Expand your history a bit.

George Washington was offerd a third term in office, but he decline stating that he did not want to become an appointed king... the thing he fought against in the war. There was one other person that did this for sure and I thought it was a Russian official pre-soviet era but post monarchy.

Expanded. I am not your history professor go look it up.

The rest was unclear and I dont know how to answer any of that.

I'm pretty sure Dean meant that there have been countless others throughout history who have declined (continued) power, as opposed to your "only two".

I cant answer points that are unclear to me.

Expand your perception and your history, then.

Even the American founding fathers looked back to the archetype of the classical greek Tyrants, citizens who would assume absolute power in times of emergency and then return to their farms after the emergency.

At that point I might as well be a drunk that keeps rambling on.

If you're the one bringing up the comparison...

And yes I have only learned that there were only 2 leaders that have ever declined any permanent stay in power. Its not my job for me to try to research history in order to denounce my own argument. Its his job since he feels up to questioning it.

No, the person who makes a claim is obliged to support it.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, the person who makes a claim is obliged to support it.

I did support it... geez.

[Dean_the_Young]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, the person who makes a claim is obliged to support it.

I did support it... geez.

No, you did not support that only two people in history have refused continued power.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, the person who makes a claim is obliged to support it.

I did support it... geez.

No, you did not support that only two people in history have refused continued power.

I did say there were only 2.... WTF.... Do you know how to read? Top to bottom? Left to right? I said there were only 2. I gave you 2.

[111987]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, the person who makes a claim is obliged to support it.

I did support it... geez.

No, you did not support that only two people in history have refused continued power.

I did say there were only 2.... WTF.... Do you know how to read? Top to bottom? Left to right? I said there were only 2. I gave you 2.

I believe the Dean is saying that there have been more than JUST 2.

[Kaiser Shepard]

1136342t54 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But apparently acquire a huge army from elsewhere.

They are helping giant Mecha Cthulu Spawn. Of course they are going to get an army from somewhere. Either indoctrination or cloning. Hell maybe both.

And you yourself led them to everything they needed to make it possible.

[1136342t54_]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

And you yourself led them to everything they needed to make it possible.

What possible? Allying with the Reapers or the technology to pose a threat? Both was basically within there power Shepard didn't even necessarily give them much. Hell they even found the IFF themselves so they could have went to the Collector Base.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Done... no point in me stressing my self over dumb questions. Sorry I guess I'll go visit my old college professor and tell him he was wrong and then burn all the textbooks because Dean chose not to learn Amercan history. Nah its cool I have to go searching through all the garbage on the internet for a source... that may not be even 100% reliable. When I typed in "Have there been any world leaders that were offered unlimited terms of service and then resigned willingly giving up their power" I got a hit for Theocracy... good job Google.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 21 septembre 2011 - 01:16 .