Just to detail a correction here: From my understanding, the Greek Tyrants were citizens who gained too much power and had to be violently overthrown.Even the American founding fathers looked back to the archetype of the classical greek Tyrants, citizens who would assume absolute power in times of emergency and then return to their farms after the emergency.
Guest_laecraft_*
Well a spectre did stop said old giant omnicidal spaceship so perhaps that evens things out a bit. And in fact Saren did try to protect the galaxy even though it was rather counterproductive.LorDC wrote...
And what Spectres did for humanity(or galaxy if you prefer) aside from helping millions year old giant omnicidal spaceship?1136342t54 wrote...
They are good at building their organization and getting a information network but what have they really done for humanity other than bring shepard back to life?LorDC wrote...
On a side note. It amuses me very much when people claim that Cerberus fails a lot. Cerberus was set up shortly after the end of FCW and is active for three decades. It owns several large corporations. It can pull up advanced research projects. It has spies in every corner of the galaxy. It has support of very wealthy individuals. And it was all started by one man. Seriously, if they failed as much as people claim they would have had to shut down their operations long time ago.
Modifié par lovgreno, 21 septembre 2011 - 05:47 .
Modifié par Yakko77, 21 septembre 2011 - 05:57 .
SandTrout wrote...
Just to detail a correction here: From my understanding, the Greek Tyrants were citizens who gained too much power and had to be violently overthrown.Even the American founding fathers looked back to the archetype of the classical greek Tyrants, citizens who would assume absolute power in times of emergency and then return to their farms after the emergency.
I think what you meant to refer to, here, was Roman dictators, the last of whom was Julius Ceaser.
Actually, that is why I wanted to differentiate between the Roman Dictators, and the Greek Tyrants. The post was about people in power who volunarily released that power. Roman Dictators were elected for a set time span (5 years, IIRC), and then were required to step down. This actually worked quite well for the Republic until Ceaser didn't disband his armies and marched on Rome.Yakko77 wrote...
The thing with tyrants who assume absolute power during an emergeny is that the emergeny which was used to justify that absolute power never diminishes. The Founders deliberately formed a limited govt to prevent such abuses but over the years the Constitution and its limitations are little more than a friendly suggestion hence the unsustainable behemoth which plagues us today. Thankfully we don't have a Spectre program.... that I know of.
Yakko77 wrote...
SandTrout wrote...
Just to detail a correction here: From my understanding, the Greek Tyrants were citizens who gained too much power and had to be violently overthrown.Even the American founding fathers looked back to the archetype of the classical greek Tyrants, citizens who would assume absolute power in times of emergency and then return to their farms after the emergency.
I think what you meant to refer to, here, was Roman dictators, the last of whom was Julius Ceaser.
The thing with tyrants who assume absolute power during an emergeny is that the emergeny which was used to justify that absolute power never diminishes. The Founders deliberately formed a limited govt to prevent such abuses but over the years the Constitution and its limitations are little more than a friendly suggestion hence the unsustainable behemoth which plagues us today. Thankfully we don't have a Spectre program.... that I know of.
laecraft wrote...
I don't know how people of this galaxy can see a Spectre and not be terrified. If I saw a Spectre or a Justicar walking quickly down my street, and looking excited or agitated about something, I'd run. Fast. I'd go off-world, too, just to be safe.
Spectres have an unlimited license for murder, random explosions, and nuking entire colonies. They can legally execute anyone, and nobody would ever stop them. And they do it without a second thought. The Council encourages this, telling them that they don't want to know the details. How can this not be terrifying?
lovgreno wrote...
Well a spectre did stop said old giant omnicidal spaceship so perhaps that evens things out a bit. And in fact Saren did try to protect the galaxy even though it was rather counterproductive.LorDC wrote...
And what Spectres did for humanity(or galaxy if you prefer) aside from helping millions year old giant omnicidal spaceship?1136342t54 wrote...
They are good at building their organization and getting a information network but what have they really done for humanity other than bring shepard back to life?LorDC wrote...
On a side note. It amuses me very much when people claim that Cerberus fails a lot. Cerberus was set up shortly after the end of FCW and is active for three decades. It owns several large corporations. It can pull up advanced research projects. It has spies in every corner of the galaxy. It has support of very wealthy individuals. And it was all started by one man. Seriously, if they failed as much as people claim they would have had to shut down their operations long time ago.
As for the OP: The spectres and the Council was never presented as the good guys. No one can be on top of the power and have totaly clean hands. Strong yes, but that doesn't mean they are good or bad. The difference is that the spectres agenda is to keep four spiecies on top while Cerberus agenda is to make people like TIMmy think he is the elite of the only superior race that should be dominant. It is a form of elitism and imperialism in both Cerberus and the Council but I find the Council to be less unfair and unrealistic.
If you want a perfect and simple world with clear heroes and villains (with the exception of reapers) ME is not the story for you. Kind of like reality where nothing is realy that easy and comfortable.
Oh, I wasn't complaining about that. Just the opposite in fact. If you look at the ME universe, you'll see that it actually does show that simplistic picture you decry by making Cerberus the designated villain. My intention was to point out the double standard applied by people when talking about the Spectres and Cerberus, and to point out that the visceral hate many people have for Cerberus is all out of proportion when you compare it to what they feel about the Spectres. And that Cerberus is undeservedly cast as the villain when they're not so much worse than the Spectres.lovgreno wrote...
As for the OP: The spectres and the Council was never presented as the good guys. No one can be on top of the power and have totaly clean hands. Strong yes, but that doesn't mean they are good or bad. The difference is that the spectres agenda is to keep four spiecies on top while Cerberus agenda is to make people like TIMmy think he is the elite of the only superior race that should be dominant. It is a form of elitism and imperialism in both Cerberus and the Council but I find the Council to be less unfair and unrealistic.
If you want a perfect and simple world with clear heroes and villains (with the exception of reapers) ME is not the story for you. Kind of like reality where nothing is realy that easy and comfortable.
Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 septembre 2011 - 09:42 .
lovgreno wrote...
If you want a perfect and simple world with clear heroes and villains (with the exception of reapers) ME is not the story for you. Kind of like reality where nothing is realy that easy and comfortable.
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 septembre 2011 - 09:42 .
laecraft wrote...
I don't know how people of this galaxy can see a Spectre and not be terrified. If I saw a Spectre or a Justicar walking quickly down my street, and looking excited or agitated about something, I'd run. Fast. I'd go off-world, too, just to be safe.
Spectres have an unlimited license for murder, random explosions, and nuking entire colonies. They can legally execute anyone, and nobody would ever stop them. And they do it without a second thought. The Council encourages this, telling them that they don't want to know the details. How can this not be terrifying?
)Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 21 septembre 2011 - 10:39 .
laecraft wrote...
I don't know how people of this galaxy can see a Spectre and not be terrified. If I saw a Spectre or a Justicar walking quickly down my street, and looking excited or agitated about something, I'd run. Fast. I'd go off-world, too, just to be safe.
Spectres have an unlimited license for murder, random explosions, and nuking entire colonies. They can legally execute anyone, and nobody would ever stop them. And they do it without a second thought. The Council encourages this, telling them that they don't want to know the details. How can this not be terrifying?
As if anyone else would memorize those five thousand and something sutras. They also don't appear to know the meaning of commensurability. That's pretty scary if you ask me.Wulfram wrote...
With Justicars, if you know what the code is then you know how to keep safe.
Because it usually doesn't happen. In fact, the fact that no one is really that scared of Shepard being a Spectre unless she uses it specifically for intimidation purposes says a lot; odds of something majorly bad happening are low, and a potentially very serious problem will probably be dealt with.I don't know how people of this galaxy can see a Spectre and not be terrified. If I saw a Spectre or a Justicar walking quickly down my street, and looking excited or agitated about something, I'd run. Fast. I'd go off-world, too, just to be safe.
Cerberus is worse than any individual Spectre other than Saren, that we know of, and Saren repeatedly lied about the details of his activities to keep the Council from getting rid of him sooner. And then, of course, he was indoctrinated. Spectres might have collectively done more bad things, but they're so individualistic that it's hard to paint one as an example of organizational evil.My intention was to point out the double standard applied by people when talking about the Spectres and Cerberus, and to point out that the visceral hate many people have for Cerberus is all out of proportion when you compare it to what they feel about the Spectres. And that Cerberus is undeservedly cast as the villain when they're not so much worse than the Spectres.
The status quo may need to change, but Cerberus would institute a worse one, in addition to its current actions.So why is Cerberus' goal of making humanity the pre-eminent power in the galaxy considered so much worse than the Spectre's goal of preserving the Council species as the pre-eminent power in the galaxy? Among other things, there's a significant status quo bias at work here, disregarding the fact that upholding the status quo is not by definition better than furthering change.
The technology to pose a threat, as they couldn't have gained the Collector/Reaper tech on their own (indoctrination, anyone?), while Okeer's tech also gives them the ability to create clones ready for battle.1136342t54 wrote...
What possible? Allying with the Reapers or the technology to pose a threat? Both was basically within there power Shepard didn't even necessarily give them much. Hell they even found the IFF themselves so they could have went to the Collector Base.Kaiser Shepard wrote...
And you yourself led them to everything they needed to make it possible.
Or you could, you know, not make extreme claims without support for their accuracy.Omega4RelayResident wrote...
Done... no point in me stressing my self over dumb questions. Sorry I guess I'll go visit my old college professor and tell him he was wrong and then burn all the textbooks because Dean chose not to learn Amercan history. Nah its cool I have to go searching through all the garbage on the internet for a source... that may not be even 100% reliable. When I typed in "Have there been any world leaders that were offered unlimited terms of service and then resigned willingly giving up their power" I got a hit for Theocracy... good job Google.
There's also the problem of interpretation. Which is to say, a Justicar's interpretation trumps any non-Justicar's. Nor is a Justicar's basis of authority or legimitacy ever really established: it isn't popular consent or democratic approval. The public culture does not defy the Justicars, but does not validate them either.Ieldra2 wrote...
As if anyone else would memorize those five thousand and something sutras. They also don't appear to know the meaning of commensurability. That's pretty scary if you ask me.Wulfram wrote...
With Justicars, if you know what the code is then you know how to keep safe.
SandTrout wrote...
Actually, that is why I wanted to differentiate between the Roman Dictators, and the Greek Tyrants. The post was about people in power who volunarily released that power. Roman Dictators were elected for a set time span (5 years, IIRC), and then were required to step down. This actually worked quite well for the Republic until Ceaser didn't disband his armies and marched on Rome.
. Although he did become a permanent dictator and didn't release his power after he had beaten pompey.
Modifié par sponge56, 21 septembre 2011 - 06:53 .
So....preserving the status quo and doing what the Council wants = good. And preservation (!!!!) of humanity = bad? You'll have to explain that one to me, because I can't see the logic. Oh wait...can it be that I can't see the logic because there is none?MasterShepardN7 wrote...
There are admittedly similarities between Cerberus and Spectres however the vast differences are what separate the two. Spectres care about galactic order and are all about doing what the council orders sometimes more or less. Whereas Cerberus are just a terrorist like organization that only has one goal. The preservation of humanity and apparently sticking its nose into other peoples business where it doesn't belong i.e all of their experiments.
Aeowyn wrote...
Really? Cerberus have been heavily antagonized, TIM has been created into a comic book villain. And I think Ieldra's point wasn't that the Spectres are supposed to be the good guys. The point was that so many people who condemn Cerberus look up to the Spectres, even though they're not that different from each other.
MasterShepardN7 wrote...
Whereas Cerberus are just a terrorist like organization that only has one goal. The preservation of humanity and apparently sticking its nose into other peoples business where it doesn't belong i.e all of their experiments.
Actually saying that is a little incorrect to. The Council nor Cerberus is necessarily good at all. Logically I'd go with the Council simply because Cerberus (Especially TIM) believes they should control Humanity's destiny and they know what is best. Humanity is already on the council and while Cerberus is a useful organization they should be under the control of the Alliance not some private backers. That is the main issue I have with them. The spectres may have a lot of operational freedom but they do answer to the Council. Cerberus can be argued to answer to its backers but they are still private backers and Tim will do whatever he thinks is best for humanity.Ieldra2 wrote...
So....preserving the status quo and doing what the Council wants = good. And preservation (!!!!) of humanity = bad? You'll have to explain that one to me, because I can't see the logic. Oh wait...can it be that I can't see the logic because there is none?
Cerberus nor the Spectres are terrorist groups. Doesn't make them good though not at all but you did actually claim that depending on the Spectres victims they could be seen as terrorists. That counts equally torwards Cerberus.Besides, what are the Spectres doing but "sticking their noses in people's business where it doesn't belong"? And you're using the "terrorist" epithet as if that defines what is bad. Ever heard the statement "One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter"? There is one real definition of "terrorism": striking terror into a population in order to achieve political goals. Any other use of the word is just propaganda. Cerberus, by its nature of being a secret organization, doesn't fit the definition.
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