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[1136342t54_]

sponge56 wrote...

The council spectres destroyed the krogan fuel stations in the rebellions, plunging them back into the dark ages and leaving the krogan stranded on Tuchanka.  State sponsored terrorism exists, and is common.  The British and American governments used terroism as a weapon when they bombed german cities during WW2.  The line between cerberus aim of human dominance and the councils wish to retain the status qou is almost nonexistant.

Thats not terrorism. Those are military ordered strikes on strategic locations. The main objective is to disable the Krogan's ability to communicate and coordinate. Terror is a secondary objective and it is basically used to make the people lose their will to fight.

Hell it is arguable that most strategies in war especially fire bombing was terrorism.

[TobyHasEyes]

Ieldra2 wrote...

MasterShepardN7 wrote...
There are admittedly similarities between Cerberus and Spectres however the vast differences are what separate the two. Spectres care about galactic order and are all about doing what the council orders sometimes more or less. Whereas Cerberus are just a terrorist like organization that only has one goal. The preservation of humanity and apparently sticking its nose into other peoples business where it doesn't belong i.e all of their experiments.

So....preserving the status quo and doing what the Council wants = good. And preservation (!!!!) of humanity = bad? You'll have to explain that one to me, because I can't see the logic. Oh wait...can it be that I can't see the logic because there is none?

Besides, what are the Spectres doing but "sticking their noses in people's business where it doesn't belong"? And you're using the "terrorist" epithet as if that defines what is bad. Ever heard the statement "One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter"? There is one real definition of "terrorism": striking terror into a population in order to achieve political goals. Any other use of the word is just propaganda. Cerberus, by its nature of being a secret organization, doesn't fit the definition.

 
 This whole discussion is a bit moot, as it depends on whether you agree with the goals of either the Council or Cerberus, and whether the means to which they achieve their ends are similar

 And as much as people wax lyrical about Spectres being allowed to do whatever it takes, and the same with Cerberus agents, our experience of both hints towards a more complex relationship in each organisation between the head (Illusive Man for Cerberus, Council for Council) and the agents (Cells/Agents fo Cerberus, Spectres for Council)

 The incident with Saren at least indicates that there is a process by which Spectre's actions can be investigated by C-Sec and judged by the Council, if some unknown quota is fulfilled. Shepard's actions with Cerberus do not go unnoticed by the Council, and it is suggested that were it not  for his/her status amongst humans he/she would have been reprimanded. Though we cannot pin anything down, clearly there is more to the story than 'Council lets them do whatever they like in the name of galactic stability'; what that something is is an unknown

 During and following Jack's loyalty mission, there is a suggestion by Miranda and Jacob that the project went 'rogue' as its methods would not have been approved of. While I understand that this is ambiguous as to whether that is the case or whether they are simply trying to convince themselves that Cerberus would not do this, it again leaves us with an unknown

 With the extent to which their methods overlap being an unknown, you can't really say with certainty that by their methods they perform the same role

[Golden Owl]

Either the Council is extremely lax in their screening of potential Spectre's or they really don't care how their Spectre's conduct themselves, so long as it doesn't directly effect the Council...Saren is a good example for this one...His xenophobia is an obvious impediment to his abilities to to enforce Council law in a fair and just manner, the Council should have a problem with that, not put him on a pedestal...In many ways (my above example just being one of them), I don't see a great deal of difference ultimatlely between the Council and Cerberus.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 22 septembre 2011 - 12:39 .

[1136342t54_]

Golden Owl wrote...

Either the Council is extremely lax in their screening of potential Spectre's or they really don't care how their Spectre's conduct themselves, to long as it doesn't directly effect the Council...Saren is a good example for this one...His xenophobia is an obvious impediment to his abilities to to enforce Council law in a fair and just manner, the Council should have a problem with that, not put him on a pedestal...In many ways (my above example just being one of them), I don't see a great deal of difference ultimatlely between the Council and Cerberus.

Saren is known as one of the best known Spectres. Basically a Legend. He was only extremely xenophobic towards humans because of his brother  denying. Even then his xenophobia never seemed to hamper his ability at all. Council could care less about that as long as Saren can accomplish his mission he could have a tendency to hump Varen and they wouldn't care.

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Council doesn't care about anything unless it negatively affects them.

True...Themselves, their particular species and the species they can benefit most from..eg. Volus.

[Golden Owl]

1136342t54 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Either the Council is extremely lax in their screening of potential Spectre's or they really don't care how their Spectre's conduct themselves, to long as it doesn't directly effect the Council...Saren is a good example for this one...His xenophobia is an obvious impediment to his abilities to to enforce Council law in a fair and just manner, the Council should have a problem with that, not put him on a pedestal...In many ways (my above example just being one of them), I don't see a great deal of difference ultimatlely between the Council and Cerberus.

Saren is known as one of the best known Spectres. Basically a Legend. He was only extremely xenophobic towards humans because of his brother  denying. Even then his xenophobia never seemed to hamper his ability at all. Council could care less about that as long as Saren can accomplish his mission he could have a tendency to hump Varen and they wouldn't care.

There in lies the problem^

As for the Xenophobia....I will need to pick through 'Revelation' again, I'm quite sure is does effect his duties as a Spectre...doesn't hamper as such, Saren is brutal towards all and sundry...but can cloud his imperative....such as his dealings with Anderson at the Refinery.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 22 septembre 2011 - 12:52 .

[1136342t54_]

Golden Owl wrote...
There in lies the problem^

As for the Xenophobia....I will need to pick through 'Revelation' again, I'm quite sure is does effect his duties as a Spectre...doesn't hamper as such, Saren is brutal towards all and sundry...but can cloud his imperative....such as his dealings with Anderson at the Refinery.

I read the book Saren was a sadistic **** in the book but he NEVER failed his job. Hell even framing Anderson wasn't necessarily a failure. He finished the mission and got what he wanted. I hated that he framed Anderson but he didn't fail once. There is a reason why he is a Legendary Spectre. 

Hell he has a ****load of stock in alien corporations to the point where he can manipulate them to his will at times. His xenophobia is extreme but its more or less on the level of Cerberus. He may not like aliens (especially humans) but he can work with them and will use them as tools.

[Golden Owl]

1136342t54 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...
There in lies the problem^

As for the Xenophobia....I will need to pick through 'Revelation' again, I'm quite sure is does effect his duties as a Spectre...doesn't hamper as such, Saren is brutal towards all and sundry...but can cloud his imperative....such as his dealings with Anderson at the Refinery.

I read the book Saren was a sadistic **** in the book but he NEVER failed his job. Hell even framing Anderson wasn't necessarily a failure. He finished the mission and got what he wanted. I hated that he framed Anderson but he didn't fail once. There is a reason why he is a Legendary Spectre. 

Hell he has a ****load of stock in alien corporations to the point where he can manipulate them to his will at times. His xenophobia is extreme but its more or less on the level of Cerberus. He may not like aliens (especially humans) but he can work with them and will use them as tools.

Thus why I believe the Council and Cerberus have a great deal more in common than the Council would like to admit.....That the Council would accept Sarens methods because he gets results, no matter the cost and no matter his motives....sounds very much like the Cerberus approach.

[1136342t54_]

Golden Owl wrote...
Thus why I believe the Council and Cerberus have a great deal more in common than the Council would like to admit.....That the Council would accept Sarens methods because he gets results, no matter the cost and no matter his motives....sounds very much like the Cerberus approach.

The thread is a comparison between the SPECTRES and Cerberus lest you forgottent.

If we are doing a comparison between the Council and Cerberus then there are many many differences. Now Cerberus isn't exactly like the Spectres for the reason you just specified. If a Cerberus agent ever really acted like Saren they would have likely taken him out. Hell Cerberus have rules and limits. Pragia was an example of them breaking the rules. They won't go too far. Hell I don't count the Husks or Thorian creepers as going to far since they just captured them. Spectres (at least some of them) will willingly sacrifice hundreds of people for one target. While there may have been other ways of doing it depending on the Spectre you could have absolutely no collateral damage or a **** load of it. Cerberus maybe villains but they do have limits. 

[Golden Owl]

1136342t54 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...
Thus why I believe the Council and Cerberus have a great deal more in common than the Council would like to admit.....That the Council would accept Sarens methods because he gets results, no matter the cost and no matter his motives....sounds very much like the Cerberus approach.

The thread is a comparison between the SPECTRES and Cerberus lest you forgottent.

If we are doing a comparison between the Council and Cerberus then there are many many differences. Now Cerberus isn't exactly like the Spectres for the reason you just specified. If a Cerberus agent ever really acted like Saren they would have likely taken him out. Hell Cerberus have rules and limits. Pragia was an example of them breaking the rules. They won't go too far. Hell I don't count the Husks or Thorian creepers as going to far since they just captured them. Spectres (at least some of them) will willingly sacrifice hundreds of people for one target. While there may have been other ways of doing it depending on the Spectre you could have absolutely no collateral damage or a **** load of it. Cerberus maybe villains but they do have limits. 

As the Spectre's are ordained by the Council as their right hand men, the Council is responsible for all Spectre activities.....responsibilty by proxy.

The Husks/Thorian Creepers not going too far?.......Cerberus was looking into the use of these creatures as possible Shock Troopers....how do you think Cerberus would have stocked their supply of these Shock Troopers if they had managed to get it off the ground?...Think about it....Thresher Maw traps aren't going too far?......Wiring up an Autistic victim?...Gillian?...Paul Greyson?.....I could list on if you wish.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 22 septembre 2011 - 01:28 .

[1136342t54_]

Golden Owl wrote...
As the Spectre's are ordained by the Council as their right hand men, the Council is responsible for all Spectre activities.....responsibilty by proxy.

But you are focusing on the Council more than the Spectres when in fact they only give out a mission and tell the Spectres to do it.

The Husks/Thorian Creepers not going too far?.......Cerberus was looking into the use of these creatures as possible Shock Troopers....how do you think Cerberus would have stocked their supply of these Shock Troopers if

Eden Prime likely had plenty of Husks. Also the Geth attacked ships near the veil Cerberus could have retrieved them. Also Thorian Creepers could have easily been stolen from Feros or the corporation who was attempting to use them as slaves.

they had managed to get it off the ground?...Think about it....Thresher Maw traps aren't going too far?......Wiring up an Autistic victim?...Gillian?...Paul Greyson?.....I could list on if you wish.

Gillians was actually given comfortable life. Paul Grayson actually betrayed them and was used as a subject for experimentation to research indoctrination. 

I've yet to find anything worse than making space stations crash into planets. Destroying Anti matter refineries (those things could likely devastate a planet), Assassinations, committing genocide and many other things. Hell the last part was something Shepard could have easily done. The only thing that Cerberus did that could easily be worse than what most Spectres even Saren have done is Overlord and that was due to incompetence and TIM rushing the research team.

[Golden Owl]

1136342t54 wrote...

But you are focusing on the Council more than the Spectres when in fact they only give out a mission and tell the Spectres to do it.

No, just placing the responsibility where it ultimately belongs.

1136342t54 wrote...
Eden Prime likely had plenty of Husks. Also the Geth attacked ships near the veil Cerberus could have retrieved them. Also Thorian Creepers could have easily been stolen from Feros or the corporation who was attempting to use them as slaves.

For a consistant, continued Army?...No...Why bother with so much time and effort into the research if it's just a short term solution....waste of resources better spent elsewhere then...tIM is smarter than that.

1136342t54 wrote...
Gillians was actually given comfortable life. Paul Grayson actually betrayed them and was used as a subject for experimentation to research indoctrination.

They almost killed Gillian, it was only Hendels intervention that saved her...and going bat sh*t crazy is a comfortable life?...Note her turn around and changes once the drugs were halted.

As for Paul Grayson...."betrayal"....makes what was done to him right?

1136342t54 wrote...I've yet to find anything worse than making space stations crash into planets. Destroying Anti matter refineries (those things could likely devastate a planet), Assassinations, committing genocide and many other things. Hell the last part was something Shepard could have easily done. The only thing that Cerberus did that could easily be worse than what most Spectres even Saren have done is Overlord and that was due to incompetence and TIM rushing the research team.

Codex on the SB Base confirms Assassinations by Cerberus.....Genocide and destoying Anti Matter refineries certainly wouldn't peterb Cerberus if they believed the outcome would be to their (humanities) greater benefit.....Cerberus and the Council (Spectres) are on par in behaviour and what is condoned.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 22 septembre 2011 - 01:52 .

[1136342t54_]

Golden Owl wrote...
No, just placing the responsibility where it ultimately belongs.

So the Spectres should take no responsibilility to?

For a consistant, continued Army?...No...Why bother with so much time and effort into the research if it's just a short term solution....waste of resources better spent elsewhere then...tIM is smarter than that.

Rachni were being used as shock troopers. The Husks and Creepers were mostly ways of counter acting those enemies.

 They almost killed Gillian, it was only Hendels intervention that saved her...and going bat sh*t crazy is a comfortable life?...Note her turn around and changes once the drugs were halted.

They almost killed Gillian because Paul Grayson attempted to escape with her. Also her time at the Ascension program was fairly comfortable in comparison to what Jack went through. It wasn't right but it is not worse than what Spectres do.

As for Paul Grayson...."betrayal"....makes what was done to him right?

Never said it was right but I'm really surprised he wasn't killed. 

Codex on the SB Base confirms Assassinations by Cerberus.....Genocide and destoying Anti Matter refineries certainly wouldn't peterb Cerberus if they believed the outcome would be to their (humanities) greater benefit.....

They are unlikely to do those things and have never done it. Assassinations are far more likely for them to do but no in general Spectres can and have acted more ruthlessly than Cerberus. 

Cerberus and the Council (Spectres) are on par in behaviour and what is condoned.

Cerberus have NEVER done anything on the scale of what Spectres do period. Their behavior is in some ways similar but not the same. Cerberus is quite tame compared to the Spectres.

The main reason why Cerberus is unlikely to those things are because they are a more organized group and have rules. Spectres quite literally make their own rules and one can act totally different from the others. If Cerberus was comitted to genociding a race its possible they could but the problem is not all of Cerberus are that bad and their will be many dissenters. Hell Miranda is that high up and she is unlikely to commit those acts unless provoked by a group like the Collectors or Reapers.

[111987]

Technological apocalypse>Crashing space stations into planets, IMO. Those are the two worst things done by Cerberus and the Spectres, respectively.

[1136342t54_]

111987 wrote...

Technological apocalypse>Crashing space stations into planets, IMO. Those are the two worst things done by Cerberus and the Spectres, respectively.

Didn't you noticed that I mentioned that in my post? Like I said it was due to incompetence and TIM rushing them. Basically it was a accidental apocalypse on a Galactic scale.

[111987]

1136342t54 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Technological apocalypse>Crashing space stations into planets, IMO. Those are the two worst things done by Cerberus and the Spectres, respectively.

Didn't you noticed that I mentioned that in my post? Like I said it was due to incompetence and TIM rushing them. Basically it was a accidental apocalypse on a Galactic scale.

And that makes it any better?

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 During and following Jack's loyalty mission, there is a suggestion by Miranda and Jacob that the project went 'rogue' as its methods would not have been approved of. While I understand that this is ambiguous as to whether that is the case or whether they are simply trying to convince themselves that Cerberus would not do this, it again leaves us with an unknown

Actually the evidence comes from the recordings in the base.

"The Illusive Man requested operation logs again. He's getting suspicious." - Man 1

"He won't find out." - Man 2

"Once we get results he won't care what we did, but if he knew..." - Man 1

Two things.
First, TIM lies. A lot. But what he couldn't lie about was what EDI said about him being a huge control freak. The odds of him actually not knowing what was going on with Teltin seem extremely slim; likely he told them, more or less like he implied to Shepard, that he'd be giving them free reign with minimal interference, and they took the opportunity to go far. If, however, TIM actually cared what they were doing, he would have stopped it.
Second, even if he somehow didn't manage to keep tabs on this one project, the dialogue seems to indicate that he has no moral issue with the project regardless. If he'd care about anything, it's that potentially useful tools are being burnt out too quickly.

[1136342t54_]

111987 wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Technological apocalypse>Crashing space stations into planets, IMO. Those are the two worst things done by Cerberus and the Spectres, respectively.

Didn't you noticed that I mentioned that in my post? Like I said it was due to incompetence and TIM rushing them. Basically it was a accidental apocalypse on a Galactic scale.

And that makes it any better?

I never even implied that idiocy can be just as bad as evil. It means that the only thing Cerberus could have done on a scale more destructive than the Reapers was by accident. 

[SandTrout]

1136342t54 wrote...

I never even implied that idiocy can be just as bad as evil. It means that the only thing Cerberus could have done on a scale more destructive than the Reapers was by accident.

Even the worst-case scenarios with the Cerberus experiments are insignificant relative to the Reaper threat. Overlord was potentially the worst, but that was an unknown on what would happen if David had connected to the extranet, and the worst that could have happened would be kicking everyone back in technology a couple of centuries.

Independent of how that would cripple the fight against the Reapers, it doesn't really compare to the complete genocide of all space-faring species.

[1136342t54_]

SandTrout wrote...Even the worst-case scenarios with the Cerberus experiments are insignificant relative to the Reaper threat. Overlord was potentially the worst, but that was an unknown on what would happen if David had connected to the extranet, and the worst that could have happened would be kicking everyone back in technology a couple of centuries.

Not necessarily. The Citadel would have been instantly destroyed if it got on there. All life support systems could be shut off. Then most ships have a wireless network those could be used to possibly attack other vessels or even planets. If the virus somehow get to the Geth?

If organics survived they would be permanently stagnated. If they even made any technology up to 21st century levels its likely Overlord virus could infect it easily.

Independent of how that would cripple the fight against the Reapers, it doesn't really compare to the complete genocide of all space-faring species.

Well if the Geth were taken over most organic races could kiss their asses goodbye. The Rachni if they built up long enough could actually save most organic races from the virus. But yeah the Reapers are technically the worse threat.

[Golden Owl]

[quote]1136342t54 wrote...


So the Spectres should take no responsibilility to?
[/quote]Did I say that?....No....I did not...Just not allowing the Council to wash their hands of their responsibilities in it.

[quote]1136342t54 wrote...
Rachni were being used as shock troopers. The Husks and Creepers were mostly ways of counter acting those enemies.[/quote] Your clutching at straws 113....I am currently replaying ME1....Want me to gather the proof?...I would be more than happy to...word for word in fact.

[quote]1136342t54 wrote...
They almost killed Gillian because Paul Grayson attempted to escape with her. Also her time at the Ascension program was fairly comfortable in comparison to what Jack went through. It wasn't right but it is not worse than what Spectres do.
[/quote]False....Kahlee Sanders lover boy Jiro was tasked with administrating Gillian doses of chemicals supplied by Cerberus via Paul Grayson's deliveries in 'Ascension'....Page 125 through to page 148....the escape was spurred because of this fact, not the other way around.

[quote]1136342t54 wrote...
Never said it was right but I'm really surprised he wasn't killed.[/quote] tIM had every intention of killing Paul Grayson after he completed his experiment...it was only Anderson and the Turians attack that stopped tIM from carrying it out at that time.[/quote]

[quote]1136342t54 wrote...
They are unlikely to do those things and have never done it. Assassinations are far more likely for them to do but no in general Spectres can and have acted more ruthlessly than Cerberus. [/quote]But didn't you previously state Cerberus hadn't been involved in Assassinations until I pointed out otherwise?...Oh and my apologies, I forgot to mention the eezo dumps on the human colonies in an attempt to make more Biotics....most of the unborn babes die in utero or are born with numerous nasty problems (I can get the stats and direct words and source if you wish) upon exposure, a very small percentage are born with Biotics...thats not sickeningly ruthless and on par?

[quote]1136342t54 wrote...
Cerberus have NEVER done anything on the scale of what Spectres do period. Their behavior is in some ways similar but not the same. Cerberus is quite tame compared to the Spectres.[/quote] Refer to above forementioned activities....unless you would like me to extend the list further?

[quote]1136342t54 wrote...
The main reason why Cerberus is unlikely to those things are because they are a more organized group and have rules. Spectres quite literally make their own rules and one can act totally different from the others. If Cerberus was comitted to genociding a race its possible they could but the problem is not all of Cerberus are that bad and their will be many dissenters. Hell Miranda is that high up and she is unlikely to commit those acts unless provoked by a group like the Collectors or Reapers.

[/quote]You obviously have more faith in Miranda and other Cerberus lackies than I do...Miranda's SB Dossier itself describes her as ruthless....Then there's Pel and Kai Leng, the rules so far have been at all cost.

[TobyHasEyes]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 During and following Jack's loyalty mission, there is a suggestion by Miranda and Jacob that the project went 'rogue' as its methods would not have been approved of. While I understand that this is ambiguous as to whether that is the case or whether they are simply trying to convince themselves that Cerberus would not do this, it again leaves us with an unknown

Actually the evidence comes from the recordings in the base.

"The Illusive Man requested operation logs again. He's getting suspicious." - Man 1

"He won't find out." - Man 2

"Once we get results he won't care what we did, but if he knew..." - Man 1

 So it would appear there are certain standards the Illusive Man wouldn't approve of; hat they are is unknown

 Just as any Council standards by which they judge Spectre activity to be acceptable are unknown

 Hence any comparison is going to be highly speculative, and largely based on your views of the Council / Cerberus themselves

 

[SandTrout]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 So it would appear there are certain standards the Illusive Man wouldn't approve of; hat they are is unknown

 Just as any Council standards by which they judge Spectre activity to be acceptable are unknown

 Hence any comparison is going to be highly speculative, and largely based on your views of the Council / Cerberus themselves

Which is a functional similarity between the two organizations.