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The Spectres = The Council's Cerberus?


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#201
TobyHasEyes

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SandTrout wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 So it would appear there are certain standards the Illusive Man wouldn't approve of; hat they are is unknown

 Just as any Council standards by which they judge Spectre activity to be acceptable are unknown

 Hence any comparison is going to be highly speculative, and largely based on your views of the Council / Cerberus themselves

Which is a functional similarity between the two organizations.


 The similarity is that they are organisations given a lot of operational independence, but it appears some things aren't tolerated..?

 Surely if we are to making any kind of ethical comparison, then what is important is what those loose 'codes of conduct' are? They could hugely change the nature of how you view them, and yet they are a complete unknown

 Hence any suppositions going forward will be based on how you view Cerberus and the Council, rather than any evidence-based comparison

#202
Aeowyn

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1136342t54 wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
Really? Cerberus have been heavily antagonized, TIM has been created into a comic book villain. And I think Ieldra's point wasn't that the Spectres are supposed to be the good guys. The point was that so many people who condemn Cerberus look up to the Spectres, even though they're not that different from each other.


No. Bioware has used many instances to show that Cerberus while being pretty bad at times is generally morally grey. 


I disagree. I see Cerberus as morally grey, but DLCs on failed experiments and ME3 shows that BioWare doesn't want to show Cerberus as grey. After all, didn't Casey Hudson say "Cerberus had a bad experiment go wrong again. Big surprise!" when Overlord was introduced?

#203
Fiery Phoenix

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There is a fundamental difference between the two, which is the goals and motives that drive them. For the Council, it's preserving galactic stability among all [Council] races; for Cerberus, it's humanity and only humanity. Hence, the Spectres (and, by extension, the Council themselves) are viewed as the good guys by the general public whereas Cerberus is only known as that terrorist organization that only cares about itself (read: the human race).

Some people may be aware of what Cerberus has done before, but all they hear about Spectres is that they're doing what they're doing for the greater good of all races and, aside from Saren, no Spectre is known to have done anything especially horrible. The Dracon Trade Center incident is a hoax; the Council will never believe or admit that it was one of their own agents that was behind it.

In many ways, it's like an illusion in the eyes of the average galactic citizen. But I assure you when the Reapers finally show up, things won't be quite the same anymore.

#204
Chewin

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Fiery Phoenix wrote...
Some people may be aware of what Cerberus has done before, but all they hear about Spectres is that they're doing what they're doing for the greater good of all races and, aside from Saren, no Spectre is known to have done anything especially horrible. The Dracon Trade Center incident is a hoax; the Council will never believe or admit that it was one of their own agents that was behind it.


Exactly.

#205
TobyHasEyes

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Chewin3 wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...
Some people may be aware of what Cerberus has done before, but all they hear about Spectres is that they're doing what they're doing for the greater good of all races and, aside from Saren, no Spectre is known to have done anything especially horrible. The Dracon Trade Center incident is a hoax; the Council will never believe or admit that it was one of their own agents that was behind it.


Exactly.


 Ah assumptions.. that most solid basis of accusations and evalutations

#206
Chewin

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TobyHasEyes wrote...
Ah assumptions.. that most solid basis of accusations and evalutations


Er. . . what? You think it's not true?

#207
TobyHasEyes

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Chewin3 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...
Ah assumptions.. that most solid basis of accusations and evalutations


Er. . . what? You think it's not true?


 I think we have no evidence as to whether the Council would admit it when Spectres do bad things or not

#208
Chewin

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TobyHasEyes wrote...
I think we have no evidence as to whether the Council would admit it when Spectres do bad things or not


Saren?

#209
TobyHasEyes

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Chewin3 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...
I think we have no evidence as to whether the Council would admit it when Spectres do bad things or not


Saren?


 Unless I am mistaken, we don't have any examples of the Council covering up Saren's actions, or denying his involvement in anything

#210
Fiery Phoenix

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Actually, I did make the assumption that the Council knew about Vasir's involvement in the DTC incident. In reality, I don't think they do as there is no sufficient evidence. The problem is whether they will believe it was her. I doubt that.

#211
Chewin

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TobyHasEyes wrote...
Unless I am mistaken, we don't have any examples of the Council covering up Saren's actions, or denying his involvement in anything


Denying Sarens presence in Eden Prime, refusing to believe him killing another Spectre despite the incident was witnessed by a person, and refusing to investigate further into the events.

And even when they got evidence, the Council only revoked Saren's Spectre status, and declared him to be brought to justice, but not wanting to chase after him and letting a human to the "dirty work" for them by making Shepard a Spectre.

Modifié par Chewin3, 22 septembre 2011 - 09:22 .


#212
TobyHasEyes

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Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Actually, I did make the assumption that the Council knew about Vasir's involvement in the DTC incident. In reality, I don't think they do as there is no sufficient evidence. The problem is whether they will believe it was her. I doubt that.


 Okay well I have no problem with people having views one way or another, or doubting motives etc.

 My point was more that we don't know, and we have no evidence of the Council doing it before, so it seems suspect to condemn the Council for a practise (covering up, Spectre denial) that we have no evidence for, just beliefs and doubts

#213
SandTrout

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Regarding the Council covering up Spetres' actions, I doubt that they actively work to conceal things beyond typical classification security.

More to the point, the Council is grossly negligent in their oversight of the Spectres, which they appoint and are responsible for.

#214
Leonia

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Fiery Phoenix wrote...

There is a fundamental difference between the two, which is the goals and motives that drive them. For the Council, it's preserving galactic stability among all [Council] races; for Cerberus, it's humanity and only humanity. Hence, the Spectres (and, by extension, the Council themselves) are viewed as the good guys by the general public whereas Cerberus is only known as that terrorist organization that only cares about itself (read: the human race).

Some people may be aware of what Cerberus has done before, but all they hear about Spectres is that they're doing what they're doing for the greater good of all races and, aside from Saren, no Spectre is known to have done anything especially horrible. The Dracon Trade Center incident is a hoax; the Council will never believe or admit that it was one of their own agents that was behind it.

In many ways, it's like an illusion in the eyes of the average galactic citizen. But I assure you when the Reapers finally show up, things won't be quite the same anymore.


So really, regardless of the actual differences (and it can be argued that the Council is looking out for Council-interests via the Spectres, not necessarily the good of the entire galactic community), the propaganda paints both groups in two different ways. The general public doesn't have the facts on either of them and can only judge them based on what the media tells them is going on. They're both quite illusive, in that regard.

#215
TobyHasEyes

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Chewin3 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...
Unless I am mistaken, we don't have any examples of the Council covering up Saren's actions, or denying his involvement in anything


Denying Sarens presence in Eden Prime, refusing to believe him killing another Spectre despite the incident was witnessed by a person, and refusing to investigate further into the events.

And even when they got evidence, the Council only revoked Saren's Spectre status, and declared him to be brought to justice, but not wanting to chase after him.


 You think they were covering up for Saren, whilst fully suspecting he did lead the geth to invade?

 Or you think they were ignoring evidence? The only evidence was, as they state, one traumatised worker; that was enough for them to bring about a C-Sec investigation, which turned up nothing

 The Council did revoke his Spectre status when they hd evidence, declared him an outlaw.. why did they not chase him? He was operating in the Terminus Systems, and they don't want to provoke galaxy wide conflict by sending in a fleet. They did, however, send in a Spectre (you) specifically to bring him down/in

 You can have suspicions about ulterior motives, but they do not constitute as evidence of how the Council operate

#216
Aeowyn

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TobyHasEyes wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...
Unless I am mistaken, we don't have any examples of the Council covering up Saren's actions, or denying his involvement in anything


Denying Sarens presence in Eden Prime, refusing to believe him killing another Spectre despite the incident was witnessed by a person, and refusing to investigate further into the events.

And even when they got evidence, the Council only revoked Saren's Spectre status, and declared him to be brought to justice, but not wanting to chase after him.


 You think they were covering up for Saren, whilst fully suspecting he did lead the geth to invade?

 Or you think they were ignoring evidence? The only evidence was, as they state, one traumatised worker; that was enough for them to bring about a C-Sec investigation, which turned up nothing

 The Council did revoke his Spectre status when they hd evidence, declared him an outlaw.. why did they not chase him? He was operating in the Terminus Systems, and they don't want to provoke galaxy wide conflict by sending in a fleet. They did, however, send in a Spectre (you) specifically to bring him down/in

 You can have suspicions about ulterior motives, but they do not constitute as evidence of how the Council operate



And I suspect they knew it would turn up nothing because most of the Spectre work is classified.

#217
Fiery Phoenix

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leonia42 wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

There is a fundamental difference between the two, which is the goals and motives that drive them. For the Council, it's preserving galactic stability among all [Council] races; for Cerberus, it's humanity and only humanity. Hence, the Spectres (and, by extension, the Council themselves) are viewed as the good guys by the general public whereas Cerberus is only known as that terrorist organization that only cares about itself (read: the human race).

Some people may be aware of what Cerberus has done before, but all they hear about Spectres is that they're doing what they're doing for the greater good of all races and, aside from Saren, no Spectre is known to have done anything especially horrible. The Dracon Trade Center incident is a hoax; the Council will never believe or admit that it was one of their own agents that was behind it.

In many ways, it's like an illusion in the eyes of the average galactic citizen. But I assure you when the Reapers finally show up, things won't be quite the same anymore.

So really, regardless of the actual differences (and it can be argued that the Council is looking out for Council-interests via the Spectres, not necessarily the good of the entire galactic community), the propaganda paints both groups in two different ways. The general public doesn't have the facts on either of them and can only judge them based on what the media tells them is going on. They're both quite illusive, in that regard.

Essentially, yes. I never really thought of this from a deeper angle as I don't think we have enough facts just yet.

#218
Lotion Soronarr

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Aeowyn wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...
 Or you think they were ignoring evidence? The only evidence was, as they state, one traumatised worker; that as enough for them to bring about a C-Sec investigation, which turned up nothing




And I suspect they knew it would turn up nothing because most of the Spectre work is classified.



Didn't Garrus complain in ME1 about beign stonewalled and not being given enough time to finish his investigation?

#219
TobyHasEyes

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...
 Or you think they were ignoring evidence? The only evidence was, as they state, one traumatised worker; that as enough for them to bring about a C-Sec investigation, which turned up nothing




And I suspect they knew it would turn up nothing because most of the Spectre work is classified.



Didn't Garrus complain in ME1 about beign stonewalled and not being given enough time to finish his investigation?


 He claims that he needed more time to satisfy his 'gut feeling'

 Evidently the investigation was unsuccessful, and perhaps with unlimited funding, scope and time they might have found something. But because Garrus wasn't given those things is not evidence that the Council were protecting Saren, or refused to believe that a Spectre could do wrong

#220
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The ruling faction can label their rivals in any way they deem necessary. The moral labels that trigger emotions directly and completely bypass the brain's logical circuits are preferable. "Evil," "immoral," "terrorists" - all perfect labels to make sure people will automatically take the ruling faction's side without stopping to think about it, and without considering any information.

The Council does it. It's their privilege as the ruling faction. The asari found the Citadel first. That's the only real difference between the asari dominance and human aspiration - the asari were first, and humans were late. They're in power, and we're not. Yet. Hence, they employ heavy artillery against us. Like labels, yes.

And Cerberus is the only active pro-human organization in space that's not completely subdued to the Council. That worries the asari. We threaten their power.

Why does everybody think that Spectres, the Council's lawless enforcers, are heroes, and not terrorists? Because the Council, the ruling faction, declared them as such. They give a lofty speech, create a solemn atmosphere around the title, viola.

Why does everybody think that Cerberus are evil, even though they're a really small organization that operates in secret, and little is known about them, and their body count is completely insignificant in comparison, say, to blue suns? The Council propaganda. Who cares about the blue suns? They're just bandits without a purpose beyond personal profit. Cerberus has the purpose. And the Council doesn't like it. They won't surrender their power. They like it, you see.

As for the turians and salarians, they became too powerful, and the asari realized that since they can't defeat them, they need to join them. So the empire of one became the empire of three. They balance each other, since warring with each other would result in too heavy losses to everyone. The Council is here to uphold "the galactic stability," all right. If by galactic stability you mean the asari-turians-salarians empire status quo.

The "lesser species" tolerate this situation. Several reasons:

1. The Council is too powerful to challenge directly.

2. After the Council uses the other species to benefit their own, they try not to destroy their tools if they can afford it. No reason to go to war with them to the death for your species' survival. Just be content existing at the brink of extinction, if that's what your pride allows you.

3. The Council dangles the possibility of joining them like a carrot in front of the "lesser species", should they ever become powerful enough. As long as this possibility still exists, they need not actually give anyone a seat on the Council. And the volus are starting to realize that.

4. You don't even have to deal with the Council at all unless you have ambition for power. So there's no need for conflict if you're content with living in degradation and stagnation, and don't have any ambition to fulfill your genetic destiny by reaching for advancement. In fact, your species can continue living in the dirt of their own homeworld, never reaching for the stars, and disappear just as unnoticed as they arrived, without leaving any lasting impression on the galaxy.

If that's what you want.

Of course, the situation in the galaxy won't favour the species who don't actively reach for advancement, because they will just be wiped away by the Reapers if they're too lazy to develop in time. Evolution is a hard mistress.

So, the Council pretends to act in the interests of all the species. And they benefit everyone, indirectly, as any balance of power would benefit anyone who doesn't want to change it. But that's still asari dominance. And they're incompetent.

The only thing they're good at is mind control - people skills. But they're useless when it comes to survival and progress. They're too slow. Too complacent. They live for too long. They have no pressing need to do anything. Not active enough. Not curious enough. Not aggressive enough. They're unable to respond to the situation in time.

They failed the ultimate evolutionary test. They completely missed the Reaper threat. Despite all the warnings, all the signs of danger. Despite being outright told what was going on. Several times.

If you're unable to face the unpleasant truth, then you're not fit to rule the galaxy. Leave this job to someone who can face that truth and do something to change it. Someone like TIM.

Sure there's no direct "proof," but how can they take that risk, the defenders of the galaxy? Trillions of lives are at stake! They can't take the risk, they must act on suspicions. The only proof good enough would be the Reaper army itself. Anything else could be written off as geth advanced tech.

Let's just face it. The Council is unable to do their job. They weren't the ones who saved the galaxy twice. It was humanity. And now we're going to do it for the third, and the last time.

And we better be given the power and the tools to do this job right.

The Council must step down and let someone who's more capable of upholding galactic stability do the job. Otherwise, the galaxy will fall prey to the next external threat, because it wasn't ruled by the species who's good at dealing with that sort of thing.

Yes, yes. There's an essential difference between the Council and Cerberus. Here it is: the Council failed to save the galaxy. If things were left to them, the Reapers would've already taken over. And Cerberus brought Shepard back and were the only ones doing something about the Reaper threat. Here's your essential difference.

Look past the labels. Look at the core of things. The galaxy is still alive because of Cerberus. And no thanks to the Council. That's the core of everything.

#221
sponge56

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laecraft wrote...


As for the turians and salarians, they became too powerful, and the asari realized that since they can't defeat them, they need to join them. So the empire of one became the empire of three. They balance each other, since warring with each other would result in too heavy losses to everyone. The Council is here to uphold "the galactic stability," all right. If by galactic stability you mean the asari-turians-salarians empire status quo.


And three became four.  You could think of it as a way of keeping the strong in power but it goes further from that.  Humanity joined the council (if paragon) becasue they were both strong but also responcible (as shown by saving the council).  A council seat means applying both military and diplomatic means to keep the galaxy stable.  What each race has in common is military might.  People seem to forget that the asari have about twenty dreadnoughts, which is double what humanity has.  The 'lesser races' don't have the military capability to join the council and therefore shouldnt be given that responcibility.

The "lesser species" tolerate this situation. Several reasons:

1. The Council is too powerful to challenge directly.


They regularly challenge the council diplomaticaly

2. After the Council uses the other species to benefit their own, they try not to destroy their tools if they can afford it.


The other species get lots out of the Council, trade and territory expansion.  The council supported humanity's right to expanded territory in the conflict with the batarians, and as the elcor ambassador reminds the volus one in ME1, the volus have had massive territory expansion since joining the council.

3. The Council dangles the possibility of joining them like a carrot in front of the "lesser species", should they ever become powerful enough. As long as this possibility still exists, they need not actually give anyone a seat on the Council. And the volus are starting to realize that.


A Council seat, as Ive said above, demands military importance.  The other races have none

Let's just face it. The Council is unable to do their job. They weren't the ones who saved the galaxy twice. It was humanity. And now we're going to do it for the third, and the last time.


They stopped the rachni from eating everything and as it seems like the rachni may have been soverigns plan A, they may have actually delayed the reapers arrival by beating the rachni

Modifié par sponge56, 22 septembre 2011 - 11:54 .


#222
Ieldra

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@laecraft:
I agree with most of what you said, laecraft, but you really should upgrade your knowledge about evolution. Evolution has no direction, and it doesn't necessarily mean advancement. It's just a mechanism for biological adaption. There are no "genetic destinies" (though I like the term as a catchphrase), unless we create them by actively enacting genetic change on a large scale (which I would, being a transhumanist, endorse, but that's not the point). The only "evolutionary test" is survival - you will only have failed by not surviving, which obviously makes this a useless category to apply to species that still exist.

Also, co-operation has evolved within a species because it is, as a rule, useful for survival as a species. It is not a given that the same would not apply to a scenario with several species. In fact, the Reaper scenario appears to be exactly one where everyone profits from co-operation.

So don't bring biology into this, we are talking about the desirability of human advancement in comparison to upholding the status quo of Council rule, and of course there is no reason to prefer one to the other a priori. But that goes in both directions. I support human advancement because that's part of my personal "ideology" if you want, but just as upholding the status quo, it's not a priori preferable. It also doesn't follow that the desire for human advancement is natural just because the desire to survive is written in our genes - many species have a rather small ecological niche and kept it for millions of years. *That* is success on an evolutionary scale.  All I say is that human advancement is a valid goal that shouldn't be discounted as undesirable for some convoluted understanding of morality, especially given that the methods used by the Spectres and Cerberus aren't that different.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 septembre 2011 - 12:20 .


#223
TobyHasEyes

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 @Laecraft

 Wow.. 'genetic destiny'.. is that where this discussion has reached?

 The full extent of Council laws that we have been shown so far relate purely to what has brought about wars in the past eg. rules against activating relays, rules against AI, rules forbidding the use of certain weapons etc.

 While you can interpret any action done to preseve galactic stability as 'preserving galactic stability because it benefits asari etc.' it is far from established. What also has not been established is in what way the role the asari hold can be seen as a desirabble position of power.. in what ways do asari dominate that benefit themselves more than any other race? The only enforcement that occurs in Council space that we have seen is those conventions which promote peace

 Of course there could be more. I don't doubt that there could be more. But to state Council 'dominance' as a power play when there is no evidence given as to how they benefit from it, aside from having the ability (and responsibility) to enforce rules which dictate peace, it to make a wild assumption. You can interpret the availlable data how you like, but you can't describe the situation beyond what we have been shown

  I will also say that to assign all of Shepard's success to humanity is highly suspect. The Alliance did not stop Sovereign, it was Shepard. The Alliance did not stop the Arrival, it as Shepard. Cerberus actually has only had any involvement in stopping the Collectors, and again that appears to only have succeeded due to the Shepard factor.  In no situation has the Alliance, or Cerberus, or 'humanity' shown themselves as being any more capable at stopping Reapers

 No race in the history of the galaxy, it would seem, has proved themselves abe to stop the Reapers, and you seriously think the reason we have a chance now is because of humanity's innate greatness? Is it not thanks to the Protheans, to luck, and to Shepard being in the right place at the right time?

Modifié par TobyHasEyes, 22 septembre 2011 - 12:36 .


#224
TobyHasEyes

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Ieldra2 wrote...

@laecraft:
I agree with most of what you said, laecraft, but you really should upgrade your knowledge about evolution. Evolution has no direction, and it doesn't necessarily mean advancement. It's just a mechanism for biological adaption. There are no "genetic destinies" (though I like the term as a catchphrase), unless we create them by actively enacting genetic change on a large scale (which I would, being a transhumanist, endorse, but that's not the point). The only "evolutionary test" is survival - you will only have failed by not surviving, which obviously makes this a useless category to apply to species that still exist.

Also, co-operation has evolved within a species because it is, as a rule, useful for survival as a species. It is not a given that the same would not apply to a scenario with several species. In fact, the Reaper scenario appears to be exactly one where everyone profits from co-operation.

So don't bring biology into this, we are talking about the desirability of human advancement in comparison to upholding the status quo of Council rule, and of course there is no reason to prefer one to the other a priori. But that goes in both directions. I support human advancement because that's part of my personal "ideology" if you want, but just as upholding the status quo, it's not a priori preferable. It also doesn't follow that the desire for human advancement is natural just because the desire to survive is written in our genes - many species have a rather small ecological niche and kept it for millions of years. *That* is success on an evolutionary scale.  All I say is that human advancement is a valid goal that shouldn't be discounted as undesirable for some convoluted understanding of morality, especially given that the methods used by the Spectres and Cerberus aren't that different.


 I agree with your understanding of biology and the extent to which is can be relevant here

 And I wouldn't dismiss the desire for human dominance as being incorrect, or failing to meet some 'objective moral standard', as I don't believe in such a standard

 At the same time, it is worth clarifying that one might hold a stance advocating the co-operation of races, and standing against human dominance, purely on the basis of their finding it a more desirable of affairs

 I am aware that that recognition was implicit in your post too, but for the purpose of this discussion I wished to highlight it

#225
Aeowyn

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TobyHasEyes wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...
 Or you think they were ignoring evidence? The only evidence was, as they state, one traumatised worker; that as enough for them to bring about a C-Sec investigation, which turned up nothing




And I suspect they knew it would turn up nothing because most of the Spectre work is classified.



Didn't Garrus complain in ME1 about beign stonewalled and not being given enough time to finish his investigation?


 He claims that he needed more time to satisfy his 'gut feeling'

 Evidently the investigation was unsuccessful, and perhaps with unlimited funding, scope and time they might have found something. But because Garrus wasn't given those things is not evidence that the Council were protecting Saren, or refused to believe that a Spectre could do wrong


"Most of his files are classified." That was the first thing he said if you ask him if he had found anything. I'd say it's something the Council expected, and that they conducted the C-Sec investigation to save face. Saren was their best Spectre after all and him being accused for the attack on Eden Prime isn't just something they can sweep under the rug.