55 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

I just picture my Hawke going "You're right I should've let you die slowly and painfully in the middle of the deep roads. Hey maybe if you were really unlucky some darkspawn might've found you and did ra knows what!" (since he doesn't know about Broodmothers)

[Quething]

thats1evildude wrote...

I also wonder if Ella's fate has any impact on Bethany's demeanour, as she was Bethany's protegé.

Doubtful. Bethany only has one set of dialog for that reunion (unlike the Deep Roads, where it appears she's supposed to have two, like Carver, dependent on F/R status -- though it's hard to tell, it's very spread out in the talktable). She's always bitter during the Qunari Crisis, mage or Warden, Friend or Rival. And Ella can end up free and far from the Circle's control, or safe under Beth's tutelage again with Alrik out of the picture, as easily as she can end up dead; which means that since Beth's bitterness is consistent, it can't be a major factor.

I tend to think the siblings are pissy during that quest because of Leandra, myself. Their mother died, extremely recently, and they weren't there to do anything about it. But Hawke was, and Hawke still didn't stop it. That makes for a decent combination of guilt and anger, I'd think.

[Mike3207]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

To be serious: Imagine how you would feel though if you only had 30 years to live and most likely wouldn't be able to have a family through any natural means..

Not exactly true-Gaider's quote mentions Wardens can have children-just not with each other. There is a reduced chance yes, but a Warden Bethany could have children-just not with another Warden. It's only 2 Wardens where there's no chance.

[Annie_Dear]

Ryzaki wrote...

I just picture my Hawke going "You're right I should've let you die slowly and painfully in the middle of the deep roads. Hey maybe if you were really unlucky some darkspawn might've found you and did ra knows what!" (since he doesn't know about Broodmothers)

Why couldn't that have been an option? Why?

[Naqey]

Sylvianus wrote...

 Bethany has always dreamed of a stable and normal life. Nothing more, nothing less. And the life of a grey warden is anything but normal, anything but stable, anything but easy. Bethany has never dreamed of honor, glory, has never been driven by wars, and indeed has trouble understanding what some find interesting to become a soldier, where you fight all the time for petty goals.  Bethany don't want to fight all the time.

A grey Warden : fight,  No close family, no joy, no ability to have material things. For someone like Bethany who dreams of dresses and warmth, stability, that's very hard. Bethany wasn't ready for all that, that's why she behaves like that.

I don't think Bethany has always dreamed of a stable and normal life, at least not in the ordinary-girl sense. I think her actual resentment is not so much about being forced into a life of being on the road and fighting, but about being and outcast, being on the run. Being blamed for what she is without having a sense of... purpose which could help raise her self-esteem.

Being a warden doesn't mean no family and no joy; at least not if you understand the term "family" in a wider sense as those people you relate to and who you belong with. Take Alistair, for instance. Becoming a grey warden has given him the strongest sense of belonging he has ever had in his life, he considers the grey wardens his family (with Duncan taking the position of a father figure) and draws a great measure of strength and fulfillment out of his dedication to them.

And I think that's what Bethany is looking for and eventually finding in the circle AND with the wardens. Because being a grey warden ends her life as an outcast (apostate), her magical gift is not a curse any more to the people around her but she can put it to actual use for something good. I think this will give her a sense of fulfillment and contentment which she has been lacking so far in her life and looking for.

So, I disagree with the simple equation: warden Bethany - unhappy Bethany (as opposed to circle Bethany - happy Bethany). I tend to agree that her anger has more to do with the tenseness of the situation and her mother's death.

[TobiTobsen]

Naqey wrote...

I don't think Bethany has always dreamed of a stable and normal life, at least not in the ordinary-girl sense. I think her actual resentment is not so much about being forced into a life of being on the road and fighting, but about being and outcast, being on the run.

But that's exactly what she tells you in the first act. That she just wants to be normal. If she could she would give away her magic, just be a normal woman and settle down. With making her a warden she isn't just a mage anymore. She is a warden mage. Not normal in two ways now, not just in one.

That and the fact that she got the short stick in case of the constant nightmares. She seems to be one of the wardens that have them all the time, not just in times of a blight. Having nightmares all the time can make you ****y, I suppose

[GreenClover]

Can't completely agree with you, Naqey. I mean, I also don't see it like "warden Bethany - unhappy Bethany", but there is another reason why she feels good in the Circle. To me Bethany always looked not like she hated being blamed for what she is, but like she is the one who blames herself for it, like she feels guilty about being a mage. If Hawke isn't a mage, Bethany appears to be the one who always put her family in danger, even unwillingly, - or so she thinks. Through the Act 1 she acts the way that makes me think: she considered being sent into the Circle not such a bad option, because in this case her family wouldn't need to worry about templars and so on.

Modifié par GreenClover, 21 septembre 2011 - 11:48 .

[syllogi]

HMM, I'm meeting my sister for the first time since she was forced by dire circumstances to become part of an organization that was hated and feared in our homeland until just recently, and now she knows that she is most likely sterile, she is forced to kill darkspawn until she dies a premature and gruesome death, and unless she goes on the run (again), she is stuck with this organization for the rest of her shortened life, whether she likes these people or not.  ALSO, our mother recently died, and we are meeting in the middle of a full blown riot.

But she was not pleasant and thrilled to see my character. I should have totally had the option to be rude and mean and throw it in her face that *I* saved her life and she needs to kiss my pixelated behind.

DSM-IV-TR 301.81

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as: [1] A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g.,exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

Requires excessive admiration

Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her

Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Yeah, there are professionals who would be happy to talk to Hawkes with this attitude.

Modifié par TeenZombie, 21 septembre 2011 - 12:03 .

[Heidenreich]

Overall Bethany is less bitter about being left home and sent to the circle. In the circle she's with other people like herself, doesn't have to hide, doesn't have to ruin anyone elses life just because she's a mage,

Her whole life she's had other people pick up and move just to keep her safe. Other people protecting her, other people's lives ruined because of her magic (or this is how she believes)

Going to the circle ends up being "not so bad" (in her own words)


Where upon going to the Grey Wardens is a hard life, one not suited for someone like Bethany. She becomes very bitter, and it takes her a long time to get past the fact that she's still, technically, dieing. It's just going to take longer. Then heap on top of that the fact that Wardens overall aren't the best sorts of people. Bastards, criminals, "do what ever it takes" kind of folks.

We get this Idolized version of the Wardens from Alistair.. but remember that Alistair's with Duncan, who was a long-time friend of Maric. Up until his death, Duncan was doing his best to keep the Bastard Prince away from some of the more... less savory.. bits of Warden life. Alistair tells you that himself.

But, as even Alistair witnesses in the end, The Wardens aren't exactly the good guys. You can't always be the good guys if you're the ones charged with keeping the world safe. They're not super heroes, they're men and women, mortal (very, at that), and sworn to do "What ever it takes."

Which is why Riordan is so "okay" with just pardoning Loghain. Because an extra Warden is an Extra Warden, is an extra warden. One more body to throw at the Archdemon to keep the world safe.

[Sylvianus]

Naqey wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

 Bethany has always dreamed of a stable and normal life. Nothing more, nothing less. And the life of a grey warden is anything but normal, anything but stable, anything but easy. Bethany has never dreamed of honor, glory, has never been driven by wars, and indeed has trouble understanding what some find interesting to become a soldier, where you fight all the time for petty goals.  Bethany don't want to fight all the time.

A grey Warden : fight,  No close family, no joy, no ability to have material things. For someone like Bethany who dreams of dresses and warmth, stability, that's very hard. Bethany wasn't ready for all that, that's why she behaves like that.

I don't think Bethany has always dreamed of a stable and normal life, at least not in the ordinary-girl sense. I think her actual resentment is not so much about being forced into a life of being on the road and fighting, but about being and outcast, being on the run. Being blamed for what she is without having a sense of... purpose which could help raise her self-esteem.

Being a warden doesn't mean no family and no joy; at least not if you understand the term "family" in a wider sense as those people you relate to and who you belong with. Take Alistair, for instance. Becoming a grey warden has given him the strongest sense of belonging he has ever had in his life, he considers the grey wardens his family (with Duncan taking the position of a father figure) and draws a great measure of strength and fulfillment out of his dedication to them.

And I think that's what Bethany is looking for and eventually finding in the circle AND with the wardens. Because being a grey warden ends her life as an outcast (apostate), her magical gift is not a curse any more to the people around her but she can put it to actual use for something good. I think this will give her a sense of fulfillment and contentment which she has been lacking so far in her life and looking for.

So, I disagree with the simple equation: warden Bethany - unhappy Bethany (as opposed to circle Bethany - happy Bethany). I tend to agree that her anger has more to do with the tenseness of the situation and her mother's death.

I don't know, from what I understood. Bethany isn't happy,  the dialogue with Aveline in legacy proves it. Aveline asked solemnly : Is that all is well for you Bethany ?

Bethany : Oh yes, very well. I am dying by inches, but all is well. " Response ironic and bitter at the same time.

Aveline:"  Sorry, if I can do something for you ...; "

Bethany: " A grey warden covet nothing, but thank you. "

Response formal and resignation. I don't know what were exactly the sentences in english, but it's close.

To me, She is bitter and she is angry. Against herself and against the injustice which continues. First, because she was never able to live normally and then because it has worsened. When someone says, even if she doesn't think really that, she would rather be dead, it's not someone we can describe as happy. When someone accuses his brother of having saved it, that's not someone we can describe as happy. Bethany refused to correspond with her family at the beginning, after she was a warden, because it would have been too hard for her, and she couldn't stand it. Again, this indicates a strong trend of bitterness.

Bethany hopes to have a normal life with her family  somewhere she could live happily. This is reflected in a very simple thing in Act 1, when she confides to Hawk, enthusiastic what could have been their lives if they had been noble, and if the magic hadn't mingled with their lives.

Bethany is happy in the circle. She is with people like her, so she can feel she is normal, even if that's not really the case. She has sort of a new family who are the children whom she teaches, and other enchanters. She has contributed so much in the circle, she is quickly rising through the ranks, some willing to consider her at the head of the circle of Kirkwall. Not everything is good and perfect as well, because of the templars and the fear. But, she confides pretty much to Hawk in her letter, that she found finally her place and he doesn't need to worry for her.

And as I said for Bethany as a warden :

But that doesn't mean she won't change in the future. I felt in Act 3 she had finished by resigning herself to her new life, and she began, full of wisdom, to see things differently

There may be an evolution, and it may change gradually over time.

Being a warden doesn't mean no family and no joy; at least not if you understand the term "family" in a wider sense as those people you relate to and who you belong with. Take Alistair, for instance. Becoming a grey warden has given him the strongest sense of belonging he has ever had in his life, he considers the grey wardens his family (with Duncan taking the position of a father figure) and draws a great measure of strength and fulfillment out of his dedication to them.

Totally agree with that, but, if the guy is bitter because he's a warden, his integration will be difficult, and it will not necessarily have the desire to integrate with others and this is where we return to the point that Bethany isn't happy as a warden and she doesn't feel close to these people, that he misses her family terribly and that her new life she doesn't like.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 21 septembre 2011 - 04:13 .

[Naqey]

Sylvianus wrote...

I don't know, from what I understood. Bethany isn't happy,  the dialogue with Aveline in legacy proves it. Aveline asked solemnly : Is that all is well for you Bethany ?

Bethany : Oh yes, very well. I am dying by inches, but all is well. " Response ironic and bitter at the same time.

Aveline:"  Sorry, if I can do something for you ...; "

Bethany: " A grey warden covet nothing, but thank you. "

Wow... I never got that dialogue since my main tank is usually Fenris, not Aveline. I have obviously lacked an important piece of information while trying to form my opinion... I wasn't aware just what a bad brother my Hawke has been to Bethany...

[jamesp81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

To be serious: Imagine how you would feel though if you only had 30 years to live and most likely wouldn't be able to have a family through any natural means.

The price of freedom for her was heavy indeed. She lost a lot becoming a Warden, and has every right to feel bitter about it. She's angry at herself and Hawke, and although she mostly takes it out on Hawke most of her anger is towards herself.

Serious answer.  At first I'd be unhappy.  But I think I could learn to live with it and like the Wardens, eventually.

You might only have 30 years to live, but you'd be spending them slaying monsters.  As long as my compatriots know some good campfire songs about killing monsters and have some good ale to drink, I think I'd adapt.  It'd be a hard life, but one to be proud of.

In 30 years, Bethany would be near 50 years old.  Let's be honest, they live in a medieval fantasy world.  In that time, 50 was about life expectancy anyway.  Those who lived longer had a pretty bad quality of life too.

[jamesp81]

GreenClover wrote...

It always seemed to me that Carver is happier as a templar. It was his own choice after all, he was not forced to become one.

Still, I think Wardens may fit him better.  Carver isn't altogether wrong about being eclipsed by his older brother.  The Wardens give him an opportunity to find purpose and excel out of his brother's shadow.

[Sylvianus]

Naqey wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I don't know, from what I understood. Bethany isn't happy,  the dialogue with Aveline in legacy proves it. Aveline asked solemnly : Is that all is well for you Bethany ?

Bethany : Oh yes, very well. I am dying by inches, but all is well. " Response ironic and bitter at the same time.

Aveline:"  Sorry, if I can do something for you ...; "

Bethany: " A grey warden covet nothing, but thank you. "

Wow... I never got that dialogue since my main tank is usually Fenris, not Aveline. I have obviously lacked an important piece of information while trying to form my opinion... I wasn't aware just what a bad brother my Hawke has been to Bethany...

 Death is something terribly final. A bad brother would have let his sister down, what you did not. And Bethany is well aware that you were a good brother, what you have done, is because you love her. And there is nothing to reproach to you for having saved her. Shes knows that.

  She involves in an existential crisis, which is beyond reason. She does not think you're a bad brother, that's with herself that she has a problem.

If you have friendship with Bethany, normally you should be fine with her. Rivalry, is more complicated, but not less interesting however.

For all those who still have doubts, here is an example of dialogue that will make you understand a little better why Bethany is not happy as a warden.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 21 septembre 2011 - 04:04 .

[TEWR]

Mike Smith wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

To be serious: Imagine how you would feel though if you only had 30 years to live and most likely wouldn't be able to have a family through any natural means..

Not exactly true-Gaider's quote mentions Wardens can have children-just not with each other. There is a reduced chance yes, but a Warden Bethany could have children-just not with another Warden. It's only 2 Wardens where there's no chance.

That's why I said "most likely" .

I know about the reduced fertility in female Wardens, that they and a non-Warden can have a child together, and that two Wardens cannot naturally have a child together.

dragonfire100 wrote...

So you think she be happy dead or going to a mage prison?

Dead? No. Going to the Gallows, yes. She makes it very clear that she would've given herself up for her family long before Cullen shows up at their door.

My only problem with her being taken away is that given Kirkwall's Templars' attitude towards magic, there should've been at least 50 Templars stationed around the hovel to take Bethany away, led by Cullen and maybe Meredith.

Had that happened, Tobias Hawke would have no choice but to let her be taken away. And I roleplay him in a way that he puts his good faith in Templars like Thrask to watch over her and keep her safe from pricks like Alrik. Tobias Hawke has already killed Kerras, and will do everything he can to watch over her while she's in the Gallows. That means meeting with her daily, talking to Templars like Thrask and Emeric, and when Dissent comes around and Tobias sees what Alrik is doing, killing him. He now knows why he was giving her a creepy look, and he wants to kill the bastard and drape his guts all over the Gallows, with his head on a pike.

She's happier in the Gallows, and that's what matters. That she's no longer with Hawke doesn't mean he can't still protect her.

jamesp81

Serious answer.  At first I'd be unhappy.  But I think I could learn to live with it and like the Wardens, eventually.

You might only have 30 years to live, but you'd be spending them slaying monsters.  As long as my compatriots know some good campfire songs about killing monsters and have some good ale to drink, I think I'd adapt.  It'd be a hard life, but one to be proud of.

In 30 years, Bethany would be near 50 years old.  Let's be honest, they live in a medieval fantasy world.  In that time, 50 was about life expectancy anyway.  Those who lived longer had a pretty bad quality of life too.

At first, I would be too. But I have a feeling that the life of a Warden breaks some people. It's a heavy burden to become a Warden.

Still, there is something to be said about being around people who can still engage in camaraderie with you. Maybe eventually she'll learn to see the joy in that life, but that joy won't last. If she does have a child, she may not be a part of his life. And that would be horrible for both her and the child. To have the child grow up without having his mother around him all the time, and for her to have a child that she can rarely, if ever, see.

She's already 6 years into the Wardens by Act 3. She's got another 24 years to live. I'd like to see her have a child in the future.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 septembre 2011 - 05:22 .

[Ryzaki]

Yes yes how dare people want the option to ask Bethany why she'd prefer to become a broodmother or be 6 feet under rather than a Warden. How dare they question Bethany's righteous fury! I mean so many other wardens obviously would prefer to be dead than wardens. Let's not mention all that "stuck with organization." applies for CM as well. With the added bonus that she might be turned tranquil by some creeps and used as a sex slave. 

As for sterile. What an improvement over being in the circle and any children she does have would be dragged away from her for her never to see them again! 

Plus GWs aren't sterile. It's difficult not impossible for them to have children. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 septembre 2011 - 06:22 .

[Huntress]

Well bethany talked to My rogue she said: If I was in the circle I probably would have joined the wardens and became the hero like our cousin.
My hawke After seen the mages in the Gallows suffer and seen what Cullen thought of all of them , thought: why go to the middle guy? Hmm I think she could probably surpass our cousin if given the change!. And thas how bethany becomes the grey warden in every single one of my games.
No templars, no chantry and the dreams didn't kill The hero of ferelden or The king of ferelden! Bethany will do just fine.

Modifié par Huntress, 25 septembre 2011 - 02:19 .

[PrinceLionheart]

Maybe because the Warden life isn't glorious? Without a Blight, the Warden's spend majority of their time fighting in the dark roads. The fact that it literally wasn't a path that Bethany choose, but was forced to gives her every reason to be depressed.

[syllogi]

Ryzaki wrote...


Yes yes how dare people want the option to ask Bethany why she'd prefer to become a broodmother or be 6 feet under rather than a Warden. How dare they question Bethany's righteous fury! I mean so many other wardens obviously would prefer to be dead than wardens. Let's not mention all that "stuck with organization." applies for CM as well. With the added bonus that she might be turned tranquil by some creeps and used as a sex slave. 

As for sterile. What an improvement over being in the circle and any children she does have would be dragged away from her for her never to see them again! 

Plus GWs aren't sterile. It's difficult not impossible for them to have children. 

Bethany never expresses righteous fury.  She never says that she wishes she were dead or a Broodmother rather than a Grey Warden.  She never blames Hawke or gets angry.  She's just not happy in her new life, which is her right as a person.  

Bethany is the most mild mannered and even tempered characters in DA2, and her depression about being a Grey Warden is interesting and well done.  She doesn't sulk, but she doesn't hide her feelings.

Bioware has a habit of making characters who have feelings, even if they're not about making the player character feel wonderful all the time.

[Ryzaki]

TeenZombie wrote...
Bethany never expresses righteous fury.  She never says that she wishes she were dead or a Broodmother rather than a Grey Warden.  She never blames Hawke or gets angry.  She's just not happy in her new life, which is her right as a person.  

Bethany is the most mild mannered and even tempered characters in DA2, and her depression about being a Grey Warden is interesting and well done.  She doesn't sulk, but she doesn't hide her feelings.

Bioware has a habit of making characters who have feelings, even if they're not about making the player character feel wonderful all the time.

Never said she said she'd prefer to be a broodmother. Would be kind of ridculous if she did. As for not blaming Hawke what exactly is giving him the silent treatement supposed to represent? 

Oh yes let's go into the "oh you're just mad because she's not worshipping your character." spiel. Well that tells me how this "discussion" will go. FYI wanting to be able to RP your Hawke a certain way =/= OMG HOW DARE SHE NOT WORSHIP ME!

Just for future reference. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 septembre 2011 - 10:40 .

[syllogi]

Ryzaki wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...
Bethany never expresses righteous fury.  She never says that she wishes she were dead or a Broodmother rather than a Grey Warden.  She never blames Hawke or gets angry.  She's just not happy in her new life, which is her right as a person.  

Bethany is the most mild mannered and even tempered characters in DA2, and her depression about being a Grey Warden is interesting and well done.  She doesn't sulk, but she doesn't hide her feelings.

Bioware has a habit of making characters who have feelings, even if they're not about making the player character feel wonderful all the time.

Never said she said she'd prefer to be a broodmother. Would be kind of ridculous if she did. As for not blaming Hawke what exactly is giving him the silent treatement supposed to represent? 

Read your post again.  You said that Hawke isn't given the option to ask Bethany why she would prefer to be a Broodmother.  She never says she is unhappy that Anders helped her live.  She's entitled to feel unhappy that her life turned out pretty grim.  That has nothing to do with Hawke, and I don't think Bethany does anything to express that she thinks that Hawke is to blame.

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh yes let's go into the "oh you're just mad because she's not worshipping your character." spiel. Well that tells me how this "discussion" will go. FYI wanting to be able to RP your Hawke a certain way =/= OMG HOW DARE SHE NOT WORSHIP ME!

Just for future reference. 

If I can help it, I try not to respond to you directly, because I think you are generally childish and hyperbolic.  But you're getting mad about *Bethany* of all characters.  Bethany.  Think about your choices.

[Ryzaki]

Nevermind. I really can't be bothered. 

I would be amused if Hawke could sing Can't Decide to Bethany. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 septembre 2011 - 11:24 .

[Heidenreich]

Ryzaki wrote...

Nevermind. I really can't be bothered. 

I would be amused if Hawke could sing Can't Decide to Bethany. 

Basically -- bethany's moping because her life sucks as a warden. Its not what she wanted out of life, and didn't really get a choice (because Hawke makes the desision for her). It was die or become a grey warden, which  is still dieing, just a lot more slow.

And she deos blame Hawke, at least a little. Its pretty clear by the tone she has when you run into her in act 2/deep-roads in act 3(nathaniel quest).

She gets over it by the time the gallows showdown comences.

[Ryzaki]

Oh I know she gets over it. I just would've preferred if my Hawke can needle her. He can needle Carver (which is probably why I like Carver more). Hawke can't even e halfway as cruel to her as he can to Carver. Heck even when letting Meredith kill her you're railroaded into being somewhat nice.  I would've loved being able to play the elder sibling who couldn't stand her. Alas. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 septembre 2011 - 01:10 .

[Heidenreich]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh I know she gets over it. I just would've preferred if my Hawke can needle her. He can needle Carver (which is probably why I like Carver more). Hawke can't even e halfway as cruel to her as he can to Carver. Heck even when letting Meredith kill her you're railroaded into being somewhat nice.  I would've loved being able to play the elder sibling who couldn't stand her. Alas. 

Yea, they set Bethany up to be the lovable little sister that you MUST protect. Which is also why I like Carver more. because you can tease him. I long for a "So, carver.. about this letter from  Peaches I got this morning" extra loudly, in front of their mother. Complete with over-dramatic mother-gasping.

They dropped the ball in the sibling department a little bit. There should have been tons more "pick on your baby bro/sis" lines ;p