26 réponses à ce sujet

[d1sciple]

i've been thinking alot about genre defining etc. after reading through this thread:

http://social.biowar...3/index/8051493

and i've come to the conclusion that i hated the RPG elements in ME2, really hated it. to me the RPG elemtents in ME1 were really simplified but still enjoyable. poring over armour and weapon stats is something most RPG gamers love, but when it came to ME2 that system was so simplified it was just bad and it took away any exciting anticipation about what my character could learn or gain or make or aquire next, just some simple stats and a couple of upgrades.

after spending alot of time pondering i also started thinking about what an RPG is and if ME even fits the catergory at all, and i don't think they do. i would class them as more story and character driven action/adventure games and that got me thinking about why there was any leveling up to begin with. i mean, why after all these years as a soldier would shepard need to do any leveling up at all? and when it comes to ME2 any mention of having to level up seems ridiculous and goes completely against the story, which is built so strongly on past events.
i would've welcomed a simplified personal power system, where you have only a couple of basic non upgradable powers based on your class, say like crysis, with no leveling. shep is far from a student and here to kick ass, no need to bother sending him back to school.

-hey thanx for defeating Saren and the Geth, now get back to class!

then they could of introduced a HUGE armour/weapon system. alot of action/adventure games follow the same path, where your characters stats are just the basics and it's up to armour and armour upgrades to do the rest. why are the ammo powers even powers at all? they seem like ammo upgrades and atch to the weapons themselves, not you, which would then mean that everyone should be able to use them? why couldn't we buy them, why couldn't we buy anything but a couple of pieces of armour? as for the guns they're just lying around, how frustrating is that? that out there somewhere these weapons exist but you have to wait to find them?

like i said in the thread above i would welcome a complete change to the type of system above in ME3, as any upgrading would just be hugely frustrating and take away from the story. also as alot of people have said the basic weapon and armour system is bland and doesn't incite any excitement in the player. don't get me wrong i love ME2, it's one of the best games i've ever played and i started in the C64 days playing Platoon lol, but the genre hoping is getting me down.

what are your thoughts on the RPG elements of the games and where it could go from ME2?

[MrFob]

*grabs popcorn*
"Alright guys, I am set, let the games begin!"


In answer to your post though: I don't think a man ever stops learning. Too philosophical? Well, another point is that they rebuilt Shepard from a bit charred goo. I find it absolutely possible for him to relearn things (and some of them are new things after all). New biotic implants for the adept, new tools (such as cryo blast and combat drone) for the engineer and infiltrator (cloak). All in all, I think things are different enough to warrant some earning.
Gameplay-wise I have to agree though, the stat system was not implemented that well and could be improved (and it seems they make a few changes there for ME3).

Now, let me lean back and watch this
*munches popcorn*

[DoNotIngest]

*reads title*

*le glance at wall o' text*


Since when did trolls start writing long posts? @_@

[d1sciple]

DoNotIngest wrote...

*reads title*

*le glance at wall o' text*


Since when did trolls start writing long posts? @_@

nice input, i just finished wiping something similar off my ass just a minute ago.

this thread is in response to the one linked above, where the stats so far say that clearly more people liked ME1 than ME2 and that in fact there is massive griping about it, mainly about it not being a real RPG, which i didn't understand and didn't think was fair but figured out if looked at from a different genre perspective didn't stack up.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

Sometimes it's better to tear off the bandaid then go half-way.

I do personally like the RPG elements in ME2 - and what they did as a whole with ME2. The upgrades are the real "leveling" system. Did a 30+ NG import with no weapon specialization (save editor) on Insanity. Was incredibly hard, took forever to do anything.

Endgame, it's ****** easy. Upgrades turn you into a machine. Seems a little silly the game gets EASIER as you go along, the apex of difficulty being Mordin recruitment.

That said, I disagree with you.

[spartacusthegod]

d1sciple wrote...

after spending alot of time pondering i also started thinking about what an RPG is and if ME even fits the catergory at all, and i don't think they do.

Okay, hold up for a second here.  A game where you create your own character, control their abilities, weapons, and personality to your liking, and you're playing through that character that can be entirely your own creation, that doesn't qualify it to be a role-playing game?  Your logic behind that statement baffles me.  Leveling up, weapon modifications, and all that, is not the definition of an RPG.  An RPG should be more about you making your own character and playing through them, making them do what you would do.  Something like Kingdom Hearts, for example, doesn't count as an RPG, even though you level up and have different weapons and such.  It's a fantasy/adventure game with an inventory system.  Mass Effect is an RPG in my opinion, without a doubt.

In response to the question at the end, where the "RPG" elements could go after ME2, I feel the ONLY direction they should go is back towards what they were in ME1.  ME1 had a wonderful skill point system, and the weapon/armor modifications were a great thing to have.  Removing that and the inventory system entirely was a huge mistake, I feel.  The upgrade and research system was a very poor replacement for the upgrades and modifications of ME1.  Thankfully, they're doing exactly that for ME3.

There wasn't enough in the way of leveling and skill point distribution in ME2, FAR too little, and weapon modification had completely vanished, a horrible idea to do.  The squadmate armor customization entirely vanished as well.  Those all combined take away from what made ME1 a great RPG: the ability to make your team and your character exactly what you wanted them to be, down to the weapons they hold and the clothes on their back (or in this case, armor).

[Nincehelser]

d1sciple wrote...

what are your thoughts on the RPG elements of the games and where it could go from ME2?

  ME1 had an excellent story, with good character development and a broken inventory system.  and unlimited ammo.

  ME2 had a good story, with good character development and a completely redone, unexciting inventory system.  with limited ammo.

  ME2 doesn't stack up to ME1 simply because its the sequel.  ME1 introduced an amazing galaxy with cool aliens, cool spaceships, and (relatively) in-depth converstaions, compared to other games out there.  You also battled an utterly evil sentient machine bent on exterminating all intelligent life.  ME2 used essentially the same galaxy (thus losing the "new-ness" factor), a couple new, bland aliens, and in-depth conversations.  ME2's story, however, was essentially a long recruitment drive for a single mission.  The final boss of ME2, an embryonic Reaper, hardly amounts to the galaxy-wide threat we were introduced to in ME1.  In fact, the time spent recruiting for and launching this "suicide" mission may, in fact, have been better used to prepare the galaxy for the inevitable return of the Reapers as a whole, instead of destroying a single, not-yet-born Reaper.  A thermonuclear bomb, launched through the Omega-4 relay, would have worked just as well, and been quicker.  

Given all these comparisons, the fact that ME2 remains such an excellent game is a testament to the game developers involved.  DA2 had many of the same continuity problems that ME2 also ran into, yet I love playing ME2, while I can barely play DA2 without turning it off in disgust.

[DoNotIngest]

d1sciple wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...

*reads title*

*le glance at wall o' text*


Since when did trolls start writing long posts? @_@

nice input, i just finished wiping something similar off my ass just a minute ago.

I lol'd.


Yessum, I'm the very essence of maturity.

[Raven4030]

I'm just going to say it here:

What makes a game an RPG is not in the numbers and stats, these are just a means to an end. You know you have an RPG if your character is different from other characters.

The equipment tweaking aspect in ME1 doesn't do this, I'm going to take a guess and say this was your ideal equipment load out:
-Heaviest set of colossus armor you can wear
-Armor modded with health regen, maybe a shield battery if Soldier, Ashley, or Wrex with high class skill.
-Spectre Master Weapons (absolutely hated these because they made everything else pointless)
-Weapon mods... I'll admit these are the only ones where there might be some variety, but since by the end of the game your choices are 'accuracy, damage, heat dissipation, recoil control', it's not hard to figure out what you wanted on your gear.
-Ammo mods: HE for sniper rifles, either anti-organic or anti-synthetic rounds on the rest according to whom you were fighting.

If there is an 'ideal' equipment configuration for every single character regardless of class or morality, it doesn't contribute to the 'RPG' aspects, because there is no customization, only twinking.

This is what I liked about ME2, it got rid of the equipment sorting which was ultimately superfluous.

Anyway, in summation: An RPG is based on creating a character with a personality and skill-set that is uniquely yours, about the ability to create something different from what others have. In this regard, both of the Mass Effect games excel.

Modifié par Raven4030, 21 septembre 2011 - 06:19 .

[Sailears]

Raven4030 wrote...

I'm just going to say it here:

What makes a game an RPG is not in the numbers and stats, these are just a means to an end. You know you have an RPG if your character is different from other characters.

The equipment tweaking aspect in ME1 doesn't do this, I'm going to take a guess and say this was your ideal equipment load out:
-Heaviest set of colossus armor you can wear
-Armor modded with health regen, maybe a shield battery if Soldier, Ashley, or Wrex with high class skill.
-Spectre Master Weapons (absolutely hated these because they made everything else pointless)
-Weapon mods... I'll admit these are the only ones where there might be some variety, but since by the end of the game your choices are 'accuracy, damage, heat dissipation, recoil control', it's not hard to figure out what you wanted on your gear.
-Ammo mods: HE for sniper rifles, either anti-organic or anti-synthetic rounds on the rest according to whom you were fighting.

If there is an 'ideal' equipment configuration for every single character regardless of class or morality, it doesn't contribute to the 'RPG' aspects, because there is no customization, only twinking.

This is what I liked about ME2, it got rid of the equipment sorting which was ultimately superfluous.

Anyway, in summation: An RPG is based on creating a character with a personality and skill-set that is uniquely yours, about the ability to create something different from what others have. In this regard, both of the Mass Effect games excel.

I don't like getting into the whole rpg debates that go on, but I must say this is pretty much exactly my viewpoint too.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Managing a huge inventory and pouring over stats has nothing to do with RPG.  RPG is about story and such.  Now, many games do have huge inventories and such, and that's fine.  ME2 being simplified allowed players to not have to spend time looking through stores trying to find the best armor and best weapons and such.  For example, in ME2 I almost never used Wrex because I could never in my games find any decent Krogan armor for him.  In ME2, that isn't a problem.

Even worse was Tali with how rare Quarian armor is (by design apparently, since the rarity is mentioned on your one chance for guaranteed quarian armor).  Usually I'd wait until I was 30+ and end game THEN do Fire in the Sky and pick the Quarian Armor, then boom Tali now has better armor than anyone else on my squad (at 30+ she Gets like Collossus VIII or something like that).  Grats Tali.

Modifié par AbsolutGrndZer0, 21 septembre 2011 - 07:08 .

[d1sciple]

seriously the thread that led me to this really disturbed me because as i've said most of negativity towards ME2 is due to it 'failing' on the RPG front as far as levelling and upgrades and armour/weapons etc. but like i said, you get to that point only if you're thinking is constrained by genre.
to me RPG means story and that's it, obviously to most other people(seriously check out the thread above man it's massively disheartening) it's about the traditions of RPG gameplay, like massive inventories/levelling and such. which isn't what ME is about. it's a revolutionary game, i've never played anything like it and it seems from the vs thread above that most people get bogged down in RPG lore when critiquing it, which is the wrong approach in my mind.
it almost seems like the devs tried to make too many people happy, which is natural when you want to be popular but there's nothing out there like ME, i'd love them to take a risk with ME3 and really shake things up. the franchise has to be big enough that they can safely do that now don't you think?

[spartacusthegod]

Fibonacci wrote...

Ah. I think I see. The first problem is what do you call RPG elements? I think we have differnt ideas about what that means.

What an RPG is, and RPG elements, can be considered two different things entirely.  They're called RPG elements because they are mainly found in RPGs, but fantasy/adventure games, Bulletstorm and Kingdom Hearts for example, do use some of them.  A leveling and skill point system involving different abilities is one typical element, another would be an inventory system.  A more in-depth RPG element (and a wonderful one at that) would be modifying your gear, and customizing your gear as well.  Having teammates is one thing, but being able to modify their weapons and armor is a common RPG element for games that involve a squad.

Those are common RPG elements, not what defines an RPG though.  If a game doesn't have those, it can still be considered an RPG.  Take Infamous, for example.  Had no inventory system at all, a very vague leveling system, and a fairly clunky EXP and ability upgrade system.  However, you were playing the way you wanted, good or bad, and how you did everything, was all under your control.  You made him into what you wanted him to be.  Through the game, you role-played the character of Cole.

Mass Effect is an RPG at its core.  You create a character, you make him/her into what you want them to be, you create a personality for them and customize their weapons, armor, and abilities.  Your team is an addition to that, and being able to have the team you want is a great thing in a game.  

The main complaint about ME2 "not being an RPG" is the fact that they threw away entirely, or significantly diminished, way too many standard RPG elements.  Inventory system?  Doesn't exist.  Upgrades have been reduced to simple team-wide stat boosts, with a few special unlocks for each individual, instead of customization for each individual person to suit their best needs.  Weapon modification was completely removed as well, and the variety in the weapons (usually a common thing in RPGs) was also reduced VERY significantly.  Abilities and leveling being reduced I can understand, they made abilities a progressive point system, instead of every tiny increase being one point, and they changed the abilities and enhanced them at the end, which was a brilliant move.  They did that for the teammates as well, BUT they removed almost every single other aspect of teammate customization.  Armor modification for your character WAS greatly improved though, and I feel the new armor system is better than ME1's armor, mainly in the sense that you can tailor every little piece down to suit your character best.

TL;DR for those of you impatient with my walls of text:  RPG elements don't necessarily make an RPG.  However, the main complaints about ME2 are that they removed or reduced too many of these elements.  ME2 is still an RPG, and an excellent one at that, but it is not as good of an RPG as ME1 was, because of the lack of some of the little pieces and details that make it so entirely, 100% YOUR character.  The little things they tweaked, and the big things they removed, streamlined the RPG elements of the game way too much to keep it as good as it was in ME1.

[Doug4130]

hmm.. I recently replayed ME1 and 2 and I have to say that my opinion hasn't changed; I hated the inventory system of ME1, hated pouring over weapon and armor stats/absurd amount of upgrades for everything when so many were near useless. I also didn't like how all the characters looked the same in their armor.

Only thing I liked more in ME1 more was the character customization, so many more options. You could make a much more diversified squad, although it sucked not being able to reset anyone's abilities. In ME2 it came down to "what ability do you not max out" in 90% of the characters.

I really like both games, but I liked ME2 more for it's more streamlined experience despite the lack of customization, and I think the squadmates were much more developed the second time around.

[Hallusinaatti]

I'm quite content with ME2. While it had some downsides I will not judge the whole game because of a few slip ups. Overall I think ME2 improved over ME1 in every single way except inventory. And that they didn't have Liara as a squadmate...

Modifié par Hallusinaatti, 23 septembre 2011 - 08:26 .

[spartacusthegod]

lol, not having former squadmates besides Garrus and Tali was a disappointment, I agree. At least you got Liara for LotSB.

I'm content with ME2 as well, for the record. Don't think I hate the game, far from it, I love it to death. They just removed far too many of the standard RPG elements from the first game. Besides the inventory and modification system being removed and other things being trimmed down, it was a glorious improvement for sure.

[Hallusinaatti]

Hmmh, things I felt I missed in ME2 were:

- Blue hue, adding to the sci-fi element
- Ominous, silent music. Not that ME2's musics are bad in any way! Just a matter of preference. I liked the mystique.
- Inventory system, obviously, and weapon/armor mods.
- More skill point allocation, and more skills altogether.
- Grenades
- I WANT LIARA T_T

But yes, I rate ME2 very high in my gaming top 10. It's not as long as, say, DA:O but the twenty-something hours I can spend on one playthrough are beyond awesome.

Modifié par Hallusinaatti, 23 septembre 2011 - 05:36 .

[spartacusthegod]

Thank goodness for a few things in ME3. I don't know about the music, but grenades, more skill points and skills in general are in, the weapon mods are back in to a degree. And Liara is back entirely as well, as a permanent squadmate. Hell yeah.

I do agree with you, Hallusinaatti, about the missing of the mystique and the major sci-fi feel to it, all the armitures and geth everywhere certainly helped with that too. I really hope they bring back both of those aspects, and having some semblance of an inventory would be amazing as well.

Mass Effect 3 will absolutely be the best in the series. Making the combat system of ME2 better, and bringing back the things people missed most from ME1. Can't freaking wait. March seriously can't come soon enough.

[d1sciple]

i'm looking forward to the combat in ME3 too, a way better melee system and grenades again, joy! still have no idea about weapon/armour, levelling/stats yet, but here's hoping.
ME2 stands out from ME1, it's almost like a new platform and hopefully ME3 is a true evolution of that platform.

[spartacusthegod]

For leveling and stats, there's going to be 60 levels again, and many more powers than in ME2. When you spend points, every point you spend you evolve the skill tree in a certain direction and choose what exactly to upgrade. The amount of points needed to max something out as well is going to be closer to what it was in ME1, instead of just 4 big chunks.

Armor I have no idea, but as for weapons, each class can use each weapon type at any time, only thing is that the Soldier is the only class that can have all the weapons, all the time. Modifying is something nice though, you basically slap your gun down on a bench and attack parts to it to customize it. Not only are they simple stat changes though (which are finally SHOWN again) but it alters the physical appearance of the gun as well. You can also (I believe) change the skins of your weapons too.

ME3 isn't exactly an evolution of ME2. The way I'm seeing everything, they're blending the best of ME1 and ME2 together, adding a few new things, and making what was already good to be even better.

[Raven4030]

I still contend that the equipment aspect of ME1 added nothing to the RPG aspect by virtue of the fact that no matter your character your ideal kit was "heaviest Colossus armor you can wear" and "HMW" weapons without exception.

Equipment customization only adds to the RPG aspect if there is an actual trade-off that makes certain pieces of gear better suited to doing <x> than <y> (the standard being: best for sneaking, best for tanking, best for casting).

[d1sciple]

that's only if you're attached to the idea of a 'true' RPG. if you're looking at it like an adventure/action game then it had a good upgrade system. i found it exciting, finding newer, better armour, better weapons etc. it was worth the searching unlike the current planet mineral raping system in ME2, it was boring as crap with no real payoff.
essentially all you need to do is deplete around 4 planets and you're set for the rest of the game, pointless.
i didn't follow the colossus/med upgrade path, i preferred predator m for the superior biotic resistance. i tried to fit it all around the specific character, even with the weapons, no point in my shep having an HMW shotgun when i never used it, or Liara or Ash having one either.
i liked having that choice and being able to fit it to the character, even if it was quite narrow, in comparison ME2 has none of that, they use the upgraded version of their first weapon and that's it, no matter who they are, what their strengths or powers, it was frustrating.

[spartacusthegod]

Raven4030 wrote...

I still contend that the equipment aspect of ME1 added nothing to the RPG aspect by virtue of the fact that no matter your character your ideal kit was "heaviest Colossus armor you can wear" and "HMW" weapons without exception.

Equipment customization only adds to the RPG aspect if there is an actual trade-off that makes certain pieces of gear better suited to doing <x> than <y> (the standard being: best for sneaking, best for tanking, best for casting).

There were issues with the system yeah, but there WAS a system in place.  Still better than the complete lack of any inventory, armor, or weapon customization for your squad at all.  All you get in ME2 is armor customization for Shepard, and a ridiculously limited weapon selection.

All it is in ME2 is "equip the most recent weapon you picked up or the DLC weapons."  I still say the ME1 system was better.

And, for the record, the Colossus armor and Spectre gear weapons were only best when you got into the higher levels.  Almost all the weapons at lower levels had a tradeoff of some type, either more accuracy but fewer shots, or low shots before overheat and low accuracy but high damage, something like that.

Everything overall was a great system, until you got up high in level.  Then it just got ridiculously overpowered.

[BentOrgy]

spartacusthegod wrote...

There were issues with the system yeah, but there WAS a system in place.  Still better than the complete lack of any inventory, armor, or weapon customization for your squad at all.  All you get in ME2 is armor customization for Shepard, and a ridiculously limited weapon selection.

All it is in ME2 is "equip the most recent weapon you picked up or the DLC weapons."  I still say the ME1 system was better.

And, for the record, the Colossus armor and Spectre gear weapons were only best when you got into the higher levels.  Almost all the weapons at lower levels had a tradeoff of some type, either more accuracy but fewer shots, or low shots before overheat and low accuracy but high damage, something like that.

Everything overall was a great system, until you got up high in level.  Then it just got ridiculously overpowered.

Just throwing in a quick jab to say I agree here; the system change was pretty abrupt; going from dozens of options (Though, as we're quick to point out, most of them were quickly dropped in favour of Colossus and Spectre gear, although I like to think Predator Armor and the Geth Armoury were still viable options.) to some comsetic differences, none of which were available to your team, and a small cluster of weapons that were made obsolete with nearly every DLC.

Like they were trying to shirk off the ME1 smell or something, even though that's what made us like the title in the first place. Its "Nice" to hear that Bioware is "Remembering" the RPG elements in ME3, but from what I've seen (Like choosing how to augment a power.) It seems that its merely a delay to get to where we'll end up anyway, not an actual system worth using, and the workbench idea has promise, I just hope there's more than a few barrels and scopes to play with. I'd rather see the return of ME1's weapon slots if it means more versatility.