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[SandTrout]

leonia42 wrote...

They also knew that going into batarian space was going to aggravate the Hegemony but that didn't stop them letting Kenson and her team do their research.

Welcome to the world of espionage. They would have left Kenson out to dry as well, had Shepard not been available. Diplomatic problems from the detection of a spy is SOP for nations.

They are also responsible for the discovery of Sovereign (read: Revelation).

Not quite. Sovereign was poking around for a long time. It's not like that scientist found and woke up a deeply sleeping Reaper that would have been dormant otherwise. Sovereign found him, not the other way around.

Modifié par SandTrout, 22 septembre 2011 - 06:35 .

[Leonia]

Well, given the events of the novel and their ILLEGAL AI RESEARCH, they indirectly led Saren to Sovereign (which is really what I meant to say, me and my clumsy edits).

Modifié par leonia42, 22 septembre 2011 - 06:38 .

[Swimming Ferret]

Ferret, after having to deal with all the Alliance two-faced crap, will gladly give them a two finger salute during the Trail. She's a Sole Surivior, so has a deep hatred of Cerberus and when the opportunity arrives, she will hunt down every single operative, and every single person who had donated/supported Cerberus and kill them. She'll cut out TIM's eyes and put them in a jar for her mantel piece.
Her only loyalty is to her new family; that is her crew. Miranda, Jacob and a few other Cerberus members will be the only ones to be spared. Kelly can be fed to a Thresher for all she would care, though.

Dean's only loyalty is to Tali, so by extension the Quarians. He's fed up with all the political bullsh*t from the Alliance, Council and everyone else. He'll go live on the Quarian homeworld in a house with Tali.

Aneska's loyalty is only herself and Liara. Everyone else can burn.

[SandTrout]

leonia42 wrote...

Well, given the events of the novel and their ILLEGAL AI RESEARCH, they indirectly led Saren to Sovereign (which is really what I meant to say, me and my clumsy edits).

Illegal AI research is a separate issue, and one that I think you and I may disagree on, but blaming Humanity for Saren contacting Sovereign is a pretty convoluted means of redirecting blame, especially because it was one, indoctrinated human that really triggered all that, and one that had gone rogue from the alliance at that.

[CroGamer002]

leonia42 wrote...

Turian Hierarchy. Because.. well, I'll have to finish my fanfiction to explain that one.

I wouldn't give my allegiance to them either.
I mean, First Contact War? Really?

Shoot first and ask questions later is not a tactic I support.



If anyone then Salarian Union.
Maybe.

Unless Geth are accepting allegiance.

[MrFob]

leonia42 wrote...

Well, given the events of the novel and their ILLEGAL AI RESEARCH, they indirectly led Saren to Sovereign (which is really what I meant to say, me and my clumsy edits).

You can't blame the alliance for that one. First of all, IIRC it was the battarian guy who found it and Quian was working on Sov without the alliances approval or knowledge. You can blame them for their AI research but that's it.

As for my initial Shepard playthrough: He has no allegiance to Cerberus and isn't too fond of the Alliance or the Council either. He trusts Liara and with her resources as the new Broker, hopefully he wont have to rely too much on anyone else. If the Alliance or the Council want to help, that's great and I guess after the reaper invasion their goals will be mostly aligned with Sheps and he will work with them but they'll have to build up a whole lot of trust again after their behavior in ME2.

EDIT:

If anyone then Salarian Union.
Maybe.

I wouldn't go for one of the alien races either. They all have their skeletons. The Salarians have screwed up more than often enough. There is renegade Shep quote I really lke in ME2. It's a bit on the cerberus side, quite the generalization and very cynical but in its core, it is hilariously accurate (except for the part about the humans):
"If you want a problem shot, ask a Turian ... if you want a problem talked to death, ask an Asari .... if you want a NEW problem, ask a Salarian ... if you want a problem fixed, ask a human."

Modifié par MrFob, 22 septembre 2011 - 06:55 .

[Leonia]

The salarians are a good ally to have as well but personally I'd rather be best buddies with the group with the most dreadnoughts and the most naval firepower. The FCW was in the past, time to move on.

[SandTrout]

leonia42 wrote...

The salarians are a good ally to have as well but personally I'd rather be best buddies with the group with the most dreadnoughts and the most naval firepower. The FCW was in the past, time to move on.

I fully agree that making friends with the biggest guns is a good idea, and I wouldn't let the FCW prevent me from working with the Turians. However, it does indicate some issues that would come up when dealing with them, and there is nothing to suggest that they have significantly changed since that time.

The FCW is not such a big issue in and of itself, but it does exemplify the brutal tendencies of Turian culture to use force as the preferred option. Even if the Turians had just taken out the exploratory team that was activating the Relay, they could have, upon realizing that they had made first contact with a new species, opened up diplomatic channels. Instead, they conquered Shanxi while assuming that it was our primary world.

They had every intent of conquering us utterly and essentially enslaving us. There is no reason to believe that they would not try again, given adequate opportunity.

[Leonia]

Y'know, turians and humans aren't really all that different in that respect. Neither side opened up diplomatic channels, you can blame them both for that failure. Humans are aggressors that use force and violence when they need to get their way as well, maybe that's why the two species bumped heads (heh) so early on?

You have no idea about their intentions and they don't support slavery (we're not talking about batarians here). Look at their relationship with the volus, they could have had the same relationship with humanity. Yes, they are a military-oriented culture but that doesn't mean they go around conquering people, really. Even with the krogan, they set up a DMZ but didn't flat out conquer them. Nor with the volus. Nor with any other species. They defeat their enemies absolutely, 'tis a good reason to not be their enemy isn't it?

Modifié par leonia42, 22 septembre 2011 - 07:02 .

[SandTrout]

leonia42 wrote...

Y'know, turians and humans aren't really all that different in that respect. Neither side opened up diplomatic channels, you can blame them both for that failure. Humans are aggressors that use force and violence when they need to get their way as well, maybe that's why the two species bumped heads (heh) so early on?

Why should we have made extensive attempts to make diplomatic contact with an obviously hostile alien species? When someone invades your country violently and unprovoked, you don't think "I wonder if they're friendly?". You try to make contact with them and all that after you've kicked them out of where they shouldn't be. Which is what we did.

You should consider it similar to someone breaking into your home in the middle of the night. You're not going to stop and ask why they are there, you're going to either call the police to have them arrested or fight back to get them out of your house (depending what what state/country you live in). The Turians essentially broke into our house because someone living there was speeding. We are perfectly justified, and would be foolish not to, in using force to eject the Turians before finding out why the hell they are doing what they are doing.

I don't see how you can be so erroniously prejudiced in favor of the Turians in the FCW. Claiming Humanity as the Aggressor there is a complete inversion of the facts to the point. We defended ourselves, nothing more, and you are villifying humanity for it. Your line of thought follows no rational path here, and is actually apparently attempting to alter the reality of the situation in order to justify itself.

You have no idea about their intentions and they don't support
slavery (we're not talking about batarians here). Look at their
relationship with the volus, they could have had the same relationship
with humanity. Yes, they are a military-oriented culture but that
doesn't mean they go around conquering people, really. Even with the
krogan, they set up a DMZ but didn't flat out conquer them. Nor with the
volus. Nor with any other species. They defeat their enemies
absolutely, 'tis a good reason to not be their enemy isn't it?

Except that conquering us at first contact is exactly what they tried to do. Also, the Volus entered into their partnership with the Turians volunarily, and the Krogan only still exist because the Asari and Salarians held the Turians back.

Modifié par SandTrout, 22 septembre 2011 - 07:14 .

[Leonia]

On the FCW:

However, in 2157, their actions caught the notice of the turians, who found human explorers reactivating an inactive mass relay known as Relay 314. This was forbidden under the Citadel regulations after the Rachni Wars,
but instead of negotiating, the turians opened fire. One starship
escaped to warn the Alliance; a retaliatory force destroyed the turian
vessels, and the situation quickly escalated into war.

Was the retalitatary force necessary? Did we have to pick a fight by accident and continue to fight it once we realised we might have been in the wrong? Was it safe to assume that everything beyond the Charon Relay was free-game for humanity?

The occupation of Shanxi was wrong, everyone will agree to that in hindsight. But in no way was an attempt to conquer the human species. When someone attacks the galaxy's police force, even if the police force was in the wrong initially, what do you expect to happen? They were making a point to humans: the galaxy is not yours to do with as you please. Any intentions beyond that are guess work.

Modifié par leonia42, 22 septembre 2011 - 07:22 .

[SandTrout]

leonia42 wrote...

Dude, we invaded THEIR territory. Try to see it from their point-of-view.

No, we didn't. We were opening up an unmapped relay. We didn't even approach one of their worlds. They still innitiated the use of force, not us. Marco Polo didn't 'invade' China by traveling there to explore and trade. Christopher Columbus did not 'invade' the Americas by exploring and making contact, subsequent actions of the varrious european nations notwithstanding.

Simply entering a system with an explorotory flotilla does not constitute and invasion unless you are xenophobic to the most drastic extreme.

[MrFob]

AFAIK we tried to activate a dormant relay which, according to council regulations is forbidden since the rachni wars. turians just shot the ship down. We retaliated and the turians came down with the hammer. WTF? Shooting down an unknown exploratory vessel? I'd say the councils first contact protocols are a bit screwed up.

[Leonia]

SandTrout wrote...

No, we didn't. We were opening up an unmapped relay. We didn't even approach one of their worlds. They still
innitiated the use of force, not us. Marco Polo didn't 'invade' China bytraveling there to explore and trade. Christopher Columbus did not 'invade' the Americas by exploring and making contact, subsequent actions of the varrious european nations notwithstanding.

Clarified my post, sorry about that, though your real-world examples help reinforce my point: it looked like invasion to the natives.

Modifié par leonia42, 22 septembre 2011 - 07:20 .

[TobyHasEyes]

MrFob wrote...

I wouldn't go for one of the alien races either. They all have their skeletons. The Salarians have screwed up more than often enough. There is renegade Shep quote I really lke in ME2. It's a bit on the cerberus side, quite the generalization and very cynical but in its core, it is hilariously accurate (except for the part about the humans):
"If you want a problem shot, ask a Turian ... if you want a problem talked to death, ask an Asari .... if you want a NEW problem, ask a Salarian ... if you want a problem fixed, ask a human."

 If you want someone to complain about not ruling the galaxy ten years into discovering there it was around, to then trash talk you, and then wield that problem to stab you in the back, ask a Renegade Shepard

[SandTrout]

leonia42 wrote...

Was the retalitatary force necessary? Did we have to pick a fight by accident and continue to fight it once we realised we might have been in the wrong? Was it safe to assume that everything beyond the Charon Relay was free-game for humanity?

Retalitory force was absolutely necessary, because otherwise, we would have indicated that we would roll-over when a world is taken from us. To do this would only invite further invasions and assaults. By retaliating, we send a message that if you attack us, win or loose, you're going to come out bloody. Appeasment has never once worked in history to do anything except embolden invaders.

The occupation of Shanxi was wrong, everyone will agree to that in hindsight. But in no way was an attempt to conquer the human species. When someone attacks the galaxy's police force, even if the police force was in the wrong initially, what do you expect to happen? They were making a point to humans: the galaxy is not yours to do with as you please. Any intentions beyond that are guess work.

That point could have, and should have, been done verbally, not violently. They opened hostilities and were suprised when they found out that We had a much larger fleet than they thought we did.

Don't take me for being angry at your or hating you, but the claim that Humanity was the aggressor in the FCW is just absolute bull****. It is false and no reasonable person should accept it as a premise. Right or wrong, we only acted in self-defense.

[SandTrout]

leonia42 wrote...

Clarified my post, sorry about that, though your real-world examples help reinforce my point: it looked like invasion to the natives.

Not those two. Cortez, and his lot, yes.

[Leonia]

We may have to agree to disagree, SandTrout, seeing as neither of us looking at the argument from the same perspective.. I get your position, really, and if I were trying to rationalise this from a human POV, I would probably agree completely (and I do have two Shepards who are pro-Alliance that would completely back you up). But sometimes the grass looks different from the other side.

[wright1978]

My Main shep's loyalty is to his team. He respects the council but doesn't trust them to not shaft him when politically expedient. He does not trust the Illusive Man's motives and he has lost all respect for the Alliance despite his loyalty to several individuals within that organisation.

[SandTrout]

leonia42 wrote...

We may have to agree to disagree, SandTrout, seeing as neither of us looking at the argument from the same perspective.. I get your position, really, and if I were trying to rationalise this from a human POV, I would probably agree completely (and I do have two Shepards who are pro-Alliance that would completely back you up). But sometimes the grass looks different from the other side.

Don't get me wrong, the Turians are the only member of the Big 3 that I consider worth-while. And I can accept you claiming that Humanity was wrong to expand in the way it did, even if I disagree.

However, it is the specific point of calling Humanity the aggressor in the FCW that I cannot accept. Right or wrong, the Turians were the aggressor by virture of initiating the use of force. Right or wrong, humanity was not the aggressor here. To claim otherwise is to attempt to create false facts here. My signature has a quote regarding this.

I can agree to disagree with your opinion of who to side with, but I will not agree with your attempt to alter facts to suit you.

[Leonia]

Either way you look at it, first contact was one big misunderstanding that I think both sides have tried to move away from ever since. It kind of doesn't matter who the aggressor was though from the turian perspective, humanity was breaking the law (granted: humans didn't know there were any laws to break), and they were enforcing the law as they saw fit (maybe too heavy handed but when the humans come back with a fleet what are you supposed to do, roll over?). It's easy to see how the FCW started but I don't think either side is blameless. What's more important is learning from it and moving on and trying to understand each other before things get to that point again.

Anyway, I've enjoyed the spirited discussion

(Addendum: It's not an alteration of the facts, it's a seperate interpretation. And given we've yet to hear about these events from a turian NPC or source, we can only make guesses on their perspective).

Modifié par leonia42, 22 septembre 2011 - 08:10 .

[SandTrout]

I can agree with that, more or less.

You are correct that the important point is that we work together to oust the Asari from their misused seat of power.

[CroGamer002]

leonia42 wrote...

The salarians are a good ally to have as well but personally I'd rather be best buddies with the group with the most dreadnoughts and the most naval firepower. The FCW was in the past, time to move on.

Turians still haven't changed that tactic.

[Inquisitor Recon]

I'm placing my chips with Cerberus, even with the whole apparent betrayal thing I will just take over of the organization myself.

Admiral Hackett and Anderson are badasses, but I'm of the opinion that the Systems Alliance is broken in many aspects, and it's going to be far worse after Earth is torn to shreds.

[TobyHasEyes]

Mesina2 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

The salarians are a good ally to have as well but personally I'd rather be best buddies with the group with the most dreadnoughts and the most naval firepower. The FCW was in the past, time to move on.

Turians still haven't changed that tactic.

 Evidence?