27 réponses à ce sujet

[_Guile]

I know this will probably not go down well, but alas, just like the last disucssion, module builders need to know what you hate, just as much as those things you like....  Please stay on topic and DO NOT bash other players for their views, thanks.

Anyway, discuss...

Modifié par _Guile, 21 septembre 2011 - 07:24 .

[Shadooow]

in this order
1) fatigue
2) restricted multiclassing where some classes can be only dual or even single lol
3) DM quest enforced prestige classes
4) ultra restricted rest where you need blanket, food, water and there is only few places where you can rest and you cannot repeat rest until 1IRL hour
5) ultra easy creatures and ultra experiences for them, also grinding on dragons is really something I dont like to see or feel
6) loot system where EVERY monster drops few coins aka 3T especially if that monster has looong decay time, thats just idiotic
7) restricted maximal level for whatever reason
8) several feats disabled while others not, example: no devast but still ED!
9) specific weapons disabled like kamas
10) xp system that gives penalty for using familiar/animal and that gives penalty for being in party

[_Guile]

I'd have to agree that nerfs are by and large greatly hated in general..

[Queensilverwing]

ShaDoOoW wrote...


5) ultra easy creatures and ultra experiences for them, also grinding on dragons is really something I dont like to see or feel

*Roars with laughter* No one should ever have to grind on a dragon!

Dragons should really only be used for mega reward, at the end of a veeeeeeery long journey. Far too many dragons placed in silly little caves that simply have no back door!

*wrinkles her snout and taps her talons*

Apart from the above, what I really hate are those blasted loot bags/chests/barrells/boxes that have 1GP in them. I just disarmed a nasty trap, used my lock picks to great effect, and my reward is 1GP? *Snorts*

Oh yes, playable races - well TBH, I find the whole idea that you have to earn the right to be some winged creature, or a PC with horns and tail wrong. If the races are in the world, why should I not be able as a new player to play that race? Why does it have to be a reward? Pfft, It smacks of elitism and turns me off from ever wanting to be a part of that club

Modifié par Queensilverwing, 21 septembre 2011 - 07:44 .

[Rolo Kipp]

<taking notes...>

Queensilverwing wrote...
*Roars with laughter* No one should ever have to grind on a dragon!

The mind boggles!

Dragons should really only be used for mega reward, at the end of a veeeeeeery long journey. Far too many dragons placed in silly little caves that simply have no back door!

*wrinkles her snout and taps her talons*

And, my personal dislike, dragons are run so stupidly! Here you have what is arguably the deadliest biological fighting machine in existence, and it acts like a spell-casting dog. A rather dim-witted dog. >:-P

Apart from the above, what I really hate are those blasted loot bags/chests/barrells/boxes that have 1GP in them. I just disarmed a nasty trap, used my lock picks to great effect, and my reward is 1GP? *Snorts*

<tries not to look quilty> I *did* see them first, you know...

Oh yes, playable races - well TBH, I find the whole idea that you have to earn the right to be some winged creature, or a PC with horns and tail wrong. If the races are in the world, why should I not be able as a new player to play that race? Why does it have to be a reward? Pfft, It smacks of elitism and turns me off from ever wanting to be a part of that club

Please take it this in the humor I intend...

On Amethyst, which has a very *long* backstory, the Elven race has a secret. A big secret. I do not let new players play elves until I know I can trust them not to behave... er, "tolkein-ish". My elves are... not terribly nice ;->

Then, also, I don't trust most players to know how to play dragons correctly :-)
So I reserve them for DMs... I promised oh-so-long-ago that any dragon met in Amethyst would have a real living brain behind it. They will never be computer run NPCs.

You *did* ask why someone would limit players... :-)

OTOH, I'm working on ways to remove some restrictions... For instance, the Everyoung (younger, common type of elves) may be playable, as they really aren't in on the Big Secret until they make the Change and become High Elves (around their 5th century)... 

Edit: one more intense dislike. Favoring, even encouraging video-game playstyle by massively rewarding killing. Only killing. Every killing. Killing anything. Ugggh. Can we have a few alternative reward systems? xp = DC for using a skill? xp for finding hidden things? xp for mercy?

Well... I will certainly listen to this thread.
But I am old and curmudgeonly, so I probably will do things my own way any way. :-)

<...because he's low on tinder>

Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 21 septembre 2011 - 08:19 .

[Queensilverwing]

Rolo Kipp Wrote:

Please take it this in the humor I intend...

On Amethyst, which has a very *long* backstory, the Elven race has a secret. A big secret. I do not let new players play elves until I know I can trust them not to behave... er, "tolkein-ish". My elves are... not terribly nice ;->

*sighs* Yes, Tolkien Elves belong in Tolkiens books. High falutin, never been nose to nose with boars spore, knock kneed skinny SMALL creatures... *Waggles head* ...and they are supposed to be all wise. ppbbft!

Evil Elves sound far better, non-drow evil elves!

Then, also, I don't trust most players to know how to play dragons correctly :-)
So I reserve them for DMs... I promised oh-so-long-ago that any dragon met in Amethyst would have a real living brain behind it. They will never be computer run NPCs.

You *did* ask why someone would limit players... :-)

Yes, stupid dragons who cast a ton of spells and forget to use their talons, tail, horns and knashers! Just because we are magical beings does -not- mean we sling magic about like a washer woman pounding her man's underwear on a rock.

Oh, and servers that use dragons as tourist information, now that is just plain absurd.

*Drops a stake she was using as a tooth pick* I'm done with it.

Modifié par Queensilverwing, 21 septembre 2011 - 08:44 .

[MrZork]

Lots of notes here with which I agree.

For my personal peeve, I tend to shy from servers with too many spell nerfs. There are lots of things to look for when hunting for a PW to try, and I try and read through the FAQs. But, as someone who likes playing wizards, seeing more than a couple of my stand-by spells nerfed usually means not giving that server a try. Not fair of me, really, because I am sure some of those servers might be great fun. But, it can be tough going to get a wizard to the point where they are really effective and it's a real disincentive to see that my favorite long-lasting buffs are now 1 round/level, etc.

[Elhanan]

Favoritism, apathy, indifference, and being ignored on the Server (be it by other Players, Staff, or DM's) are all subjective issues I tend to avoid. Being part of a PW that avoids such things is far more appealing.

Modifié par Elhanan, 21 septembre 2011 - 08:56 .

[henesua]

(0) Annoying staff and players. - but that is likely true for everyone so lets ignore it.
(1) Weak setting.

Whether it is a hack and slash or a role play server, I log into a PW for immersion in another world. If the setting is a cheap knock off, unimaginative, poorly crafted, or whatever I couldn't care less about the systems the world has, what spells are available etc... In fact, a well conceived world is still a fun diversion for me even if the scripted game systems are a PITA.

"Server features" should be a secondary or tertiary consideration when working on a PW. NWN is not interesting enough as a game. The interface and mechanics hard coded into it were never appealing to me. And 10 years later I'd be surprised if they feel novel to anyone at this point. I don't want to be reminded of game mechanics in a PW, I just want to play in another world for awhile.

[Rolo Kipp]

<backpeddling furiously...>

Queensilverwing wrote...
*sighs* Yes, Tolkien Elves belong in Tolkiens books. High falutin, never been nose to nose with boars spore, knock kneed skinny SMALL creatures... *Waggles head* ...and they are supposed to be all wise. ppbbft!

Evil Elves sound far better, non-drow evil elves!

Not *evil*... just with a completely different agenda. Even the Twisted Ones sub-race (look like Drow - Dark skin/white hair is stigmata from being cannibals) aren't evil, exactly... it's an *honor* to be invited to a feast...

Yes, stupid dragons who cast a ton of spells and forget to use their talons, tail, horns and knashers! Just because we are magical beings does -not- mean we sling magic about like a washer woman pounding her man's underwear on a rock.

Oh, and servers that use dragons as tourist information, now that is just plain absurd.

*Drops a stake she was using as a tooth pick* I'm done with it.

Hey! That was polished and oiled zebrawood! Mpph. Woulda made a nice staff...

And *don't* get me started on the difference between Metallic and Chromatic dragons and the ball that Bioware *completely* fumbled! Did they even *look* in the Monster Manual? Think about the origin of myths? Eastern vs Western mythos? >:-(

I *will* be re-doing Metallic dragons and their AI...

<...as the Proud Rock tips slowly toward the gorge>

[Rolo Kipp]

<looking old...>

henesua wrote...
(0) Annoying staff and players. - but that is likely true for everyone so lets ignore it.
(1) Weak setting.

Whether it is a hack and slash or a role play server, I log into a PW for immersion in another world. If the setting is a cheap knock off, unimaginative, poorly crafted, or whatever I couldn't care less about the systems the world has, what spells are available etc... In fact, a well conceived world is still a fun diversion for me even if the scripted game systems are a PITA.

Gaia, I hope so :-) That's all I have to offer...

"Server features" should be a secondary or tertiary consideration when working on a PW. NWN is not interesting enough as a game. The interface and mechanics hard coded into it were never appealing to me. And 10 years later I'd be surprised if they feel novel to anyone at this point. I don't want to be reminded of game mechanics in a PW, I just want to play in another world for awhile.

Well, they actually are a bit novel for me :-P That ten year hiatus away from technology changed a lot of things for me... but it *did* keep NwN fresh! :-)

I'm so glad you stuck around!
Wish more of the Nexus and the Gemworlds had:-(
(Elhanon The Ancient One is the only name I recognize from the Interplay boards)

<...and feeling older>

Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 21 septembre 2011 - 11:39 .

[ffbj]

Things like food, taking off your armor to rest. You are just sitting down for 30 seconds not crawling into bed for 8 hours. Most things that really offer little except annoyance to the players.
Constant spam messages about inconsequential things. Going into areas that little or nothing spawns in. Those sort of window dressing areas that aren't really anything special just so the owners can say we have over 'large number here' areas.

[_Guile]

ffbj wrote...

Things like food, taking off your armor to rest. You are just sitting down for 30 seconds not crawling into bed for 8 hours. Most things that really offer little except annoyance to the players.
Constant spam messages about inconsequential things. Going into areas that little or nothing spawns in. Those sort of window dressing areas that aren't really anything special just so the owners can say we have over 'large number here' areas.

I would rather play on a server with 40 well developed areas than a server with 400 areas with almost no interaction in 75% of the module.. No thanks..

That's a common problem that plagues a lot of the Action Servers, but then there is the flip side, the RP servers who tend to overdo it some times in some areas, or they put too much emphasis on areas design and forget the most important part, the actual interactions!  Interactions are not limited to encounters, and really shouldn't be..

I suppose the biggest one for me is, the "dead" server, the one where there may be 1-20 players on, but you rarely see a DM on, if ever...  You know you aren't going to get to play around much, just run the module, grind grind grind!

If I see nerf en mass or restricted rest, I just leave, I'm completely against playing in a ultra-realism world too.

[Shadooow]

oh and found some more:
- timed XP for roleplaying doing nothing
- no XP for killing (challenging ofc) monsters
- restricted ammount of time you can play - yes i have seen this already as a prevention from powergamers lol
- character aging and penalties from age
- ultra overpriced items in shops (compared to average gold gain) like at 3T - this just leads to saving money as long as possible and not buying items from start where you can play just with buffs (vestment, gmw, flame)

[SuperFly_2000]

ffbj wrote...
Going into areas that little or nothing spawns in. Those sort of window dressing areas that aren't really anything special just so the owners can say we have over 'large number here' areas.

Yeah....or just to show of some new cool tileset or tileset group they have...

...forgetting that the area actually needs to contain somehting else than eyecandy. All too common...

[WebShaman]

All the above, and...having to do a cellar full of rats.

At first level.

I'm soooo gone!

[ffbj]

Yeah. Or how about slow moving zombies in open graveyard areas? They are so slow you dance around shooting arrows, they get close, you run away and shoot arrows again. Wash, rinse, repeat. Yep SuperFly, that kind of thing bugs me too. Pretty area with nothing there.

[WebShaman]

?? Kiting is a valid tactic in NWN.

[Kail Pendragon]

Undocumented changes to the vanilla game

Food/water/sleeping bags required to rest or just to survive. I'm capable of suspending my disbelief well enough to ignore the lack of actual implementation of all bodily functions in NWN (I can see a point of needing food/water in survival modules of course).

Huge (32x32) areas which simply end up creating lag.

Pointless, lag enhancing features (like useless NPCs).

Restrictions imposed on character building.

ILR

[WebShaman]

Ouch! I almost forgot about ILR.

What a ()=(//& system!

[Jenna WSI]

- Staff that acts rude/condescending
- Huge, boring areas, with very few placeables/decoration and nothing to interest the player... filler.
- Detailed areas that make no IC sense at all, and the builder didn't take the time to add a story or check the lore
- Getting killed by Super Rats or some other irritating spawns that are overpowered
- Rest/Fatigue/You need to poop now! systems

Modifié par Jenna WSI, 25 septembre 2011 - 03:10 .

[WebShaman]

^ You spoke from my heart!

Especially the first one!

I cannot count how many of those types have come on the forums, advertising their PWs, and in response to questions have fallen into that type of mindset!

And they wonder why they do not have a large playerbase...

It is like observing bosses at work, with their cronies.  Totally oblivious to the fact that everyone else is aware of the situation...

I have no idea how people like that live with themselves.

Modifié par WebShaman, 25 septembre 2011 - 05:06 .

[Jenna WSI]

You'd be surprised... some larger servers with this problem keep a big playerbase. Players are reluctant to leave once they've invested, and sadly it gives those in control a license to abuse others. Almost as bad, is the absentee landlord syndrome. Seen a few of these. The owner isn't present and rarely ever comes around, but just can't give up control and continues to make decisions that the rest of the server/staff doesn't agree with.

Modifié par Jenna WSI, 26 septembre 2011 - 01:48 .

[_Guile]

I'm not really in to OC style games, anything with IRL or ELC (Enforce Legal Character) is pretty much uninteresting to me.
Not something I detest, but IRL is pretty much completely uninteresting.

ELC however just shows that the builder isn't willing to go outside the rules & doesn't use subraces or Legendary Levels either (As those would make a character "Illegal" technically), which also probably means they probably didn't take the time to make custom stuff & the module, while it might be good, most likely is lacking in content & serious time of creation.

If you see poorly designed modules it's a big turn off, for most people...

The problem is, it's getting harder and harder to find high quality modules which are fun to play, you may be able to find some that are high quality, but they may not be fun to you, or the reverse they may be fun, but are lacking in quality.

It's tough to only talk about what you hate without talking about what you love, but I suppose I will just shortly say, if you want to win players, you had best be using good quality content, players are very selective today, and if you (as a builder) are not willing to use all that great free content built by so many countless other builders for you, then you are obviously aren't going to draw much of a crowd.

It's no small wonder why many servers go online, never grow, and remain dead, the builder thinks they can woo the crowds over with story or module design, it's not about the module & story as much as it is about the players!  Therefore players should be your very first and always foremost consideration when building, always!

So why not include custom crafting / forge system / Gem Systems and all those other countless systems to make your module more attractive to players.  I can tell you first hand that players love one thing more above EVERYTHING ELSE, and that is....

OPTIONS!



I've found servers with all the customization your heart could desire, massive great content, but it was really lacking in module design, or lacked balance or that "Fun" factor...

Then I have found really good storyline modules which were extremely fun to play, but were completely lacking in quality custom content.

Finding those kind of servers that are high quality are a rare gem, obviously when a server has both they are huge hit and have many players.

You may find a server with almost everything you wanted and the staff are complete uncaring, MIA (Missing in Action), or worse, completely asinine towards the players.

You may find a server that is great in 9 out of 10 things but fails to deliver the total package.  I have yet to see a server that offered "The total Package", some were extremely close, but only lacked like one or two things, while others are still growing and are very promising indeed.

Who knows, maybe in the few years this game has left, we will find a super server out there, who knows.  Unfortunately NWN's player base has dwindled down to less than 20% of what it use to be.

Modifié par _Guile, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:03 .

[Rolo Kipp]

 <tossing in a couple things...>

@Jenna: S. John Ross wrote an interesting little essay about some of the counter-intuitive success strategies of commercial RPG...

Five Elements (of Commercial Appeal in RPG Design) is not a theory, not a design guide, not about good games and not (specifically) an expression of my tastes. So what is it, then? You know. Stuff.

If you are not familiar with S. John Ross, he's another of the (*really*) old crew... I *highly* recommend browsing his Blue Room :-)

<...that are possibly on-topic, probably impertinent and certainly odd>

Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 26 septembre 2011 - 05:30 .