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[teenparty]

Is she good or bad?

Morrigan is probalby the most ambiguous characters in Dragon Age. My belief is that she is either trying to save the world or to doom it, but I can't decide which one.

Here are my thoughts.

Theory #1: Morrigan is "good".

Flemeth wants to old gods power and sends Morrigan with the warden to claim it for her. Morrigan decides this power could instead be used for some greater purpose and manipulates the warden into killing Flemeth. This is all done for some "greater good" as Morrigan claims that she has put the good of Theadas above herself.

There are a lot of hints in DAO that Morrigan is in fact a good soul corrupted by her upbringing. It could be argued that she is just manipulating the warden into believeing she has a heart of gold, but I believe most of her "softer" moments are genuine. Her evil persona seems like too much of a fasade. Why would she brag about being evil and heartless and then break up in tears whenever someone offers her a compliment or a thank you?

Theory #2: Morrigan is evil (She constanly advertises the fact. Why not take her word for it?)

Morrigan betrays Flemeth so that she could have the old god power for herself.

Morrigan is a sadist. She takes pleasure in bringing pain and death upon others. Even if this interpretation is far too obvious to be true it is simply not believeable that Morrigan would sacrifice her own happiness for the good of all. 

[Nerevar-as]

My Mabari likes her in WH. That´s enough for me.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Nerevar-as wrote...

My Mabari likes her in WH. That´s enough for me.

Strangely enough, that is a pretty damned good reason. I have found that animals seem to be far superior judges of character than most humans. When Dog doesn't think someone's kosher, he does speak up (Sophia Dryden, Zathrien, as examples). And he's pretty spot on.

Morrigan is far too complex to be good or evil, she just is. Whatever her grand plan is, it's probably going to be extremely grey and pragmatic.

[teenparty]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Whatever her grand plan is, it's probably going to be extremely grey and pragmatic.

Why grey and pragmatic? 

[jamesp81]

Nerevar-as wrote...

My Mabari likes her in WH. That´s enough for me.

Me too, actually.  Mabari in particular were magically bred to be smart and perceptive, and they seem to be able to take the measure of a person pretty accurately.

I'm closer to Theory #1.  Morrigan isn't really bad at heart, but she's been hardened a lot by her upbringing.

When she goes on and on about love being a weakness, I think she really believes that.  She probably got real jaded about the whole subject given her mother's activities.  Still, she wishes it weren't so as can be seen by the softer moments if you romance her.

[Nerevar-as]

teenparty wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Whatever her grand plan is, it's probably going to be extremely grey and pragmatic.

Why grey and pragmatic? 

Probably a noble goal but with methods that won´t care about collateral damage or removing whoever gets in the way no matter their intentions.

On the other side the same probably goes to Flemeth´s plan, although I trust her far less. For some reason she reminds me of Palpatine.

[Jonathan Seagull]

I suspect that neither Morrigan nor Flemeth will be revealed as being simply good or evil, but that they will have opposing goals, and that at some point the protagonist will have to choose which one to side with. With Flemeth especially, I think it would be a bit too lazy for them to just say "Yup, she really IS evil. Boss fight!"

[LobselVith8]

My Surana Warden trusted Morrigan, and so did his Mabari Hound. I suspect that Morrigan has an ambitious plan in the works.

[Jedimaster88]

jamesp81 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

My Mabari likes her in WH. That´s enough for me.

Me too, actually.  Mabari in particular were magically bred to be smart and perceptive, and they seem to be able to take the measure of a person pretty accurately.

I'm closer to Theory #1.  Morrigan isn't really bad at heart, but she's been hardened a lot by her upbringing.

When she goes on and on about love being a weakness, I think she really believes that.  She probably got real jaded about the whole subject given her mother's activities.  Still, she wishes it weren't so as can be seen by the softer moments if you romance her.

I agree with you. The dog seems to be a good judge of character.

I cant even begin to think, what kind of childhood morrigan has had. Her view of the world is propably petty much painted by flemeth, plus she hasnt had any friends. Those kind of things have a strong effect on person.

She is suprised and glad about the friendship and maybe about the love she shares with the warden and this can be seen at the final battle when she says to romanced warden that she doesnt regret what was between them. The warden can become the only person, she truly cares about.

So no I dont consider her to be "evil". Not "good" either, but I´d say she is maybe a bit more towards "good" or neutral. In witch hunt she seems to be a totally different person. In fact she seems to be more caring and compassionate than before. At least this is the image I get when my warden encounters her and she talks about their child.

Hopefully we will see more of her and I certainly DONT want to kill her.

[Johnny20]

It's hard to say. She doesn't seem the person to kill innocent people just for laughs, yet witnessing someone else commit the act wouldn't cause her much bother I feel. I doubt she'd step in to help either side unless she was gaining something from doing so.

She is out for herself, this is clear. She wants what she desires, and will actively work to achieve that goal, regardless of how or who it effects. That doesn't mean she will not get personally involved, and torturer herself for doing so. The fact she can feel such emotions tells me she isn't inherently evil. She isn't utterly ruthless. Her heart maybe isn't always in the right place, but it's hard to say.

What she does seem to want however is power. Once she has this, her personally could change, probably for the worse. Morrigan is a truly complex character, until we find out more of what she's been up to it's impossible to judge her moral standing, I feel.

Modifié par Johnny20, 21 septembre 2011 - 07:53 .

[Huntress]

Morrigan: http://www.druidry.o...s/morrigan.html

Why Morrigan have never seen her sisters in DA?:
"Very early she is under stood to be a triple goddess, a shape shifter, a three part person"
"Some tales say Arthur was taken to Avalon by Morrigan, and that as a transporter she is neither good nor evil, others that she is a particular corrupt spirit."
"She can fly, she can change her shape from old to young, she is kindly and well trained in medicine"

http://www.pantheon....m/morrigan.html

Is a great read

[Boiny Bunny]

IMO both Morrigan and Flemeth are firmly aligned to the 'greater good' - though are certainly not overly concerned about morals or insects (people) that they happen to meet along the way.

Morrigan in particular is very logically minded - if somebody asks for help and there is nothing material to be gained by doing so, she'll happily refuse.

[Tommy6860]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

IMO both Morrigan and Flemeth are firmly aligned to the 'greater good' - though are certainly not overly concerned about morals or insects (people) that they happen to meet along the way.

Morrigan in particular is very logically minded - if somebody asks for help and there is nothing material to be gained by doing so, she'll happily refuse.

I don't know if Morrigan is more "logical" than being "practical"

[SkittlesKat96]

I think she is unnecessarily cold and she is a bit messed up and I don't like her anti-order views but for the most part I don't think she is evil at all or really that bad. I also don't think she wants ultimate power or domination either (or maybe she does I don't know) and she seems to realize the danger of demons

She seems like an objectivist or something, I really don't think she wants the greater good (or at least not before the end of Witch Hunt) but I don't think she is completely twisted or messed up and I might be wrong, maybe she does want to help people and create peace/a greater good

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 22 septembre 2011 - 03:07 .

[Quething]

jamesp81 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

My Mabari likes her in WH. That´s enough for me.

Me too, actually.  Mabari in particular were magically bred to be smart and perceptive, and they seem to be able to take the measure of a person pretty accurately.

I'm closer to Theory #1.  Morrigan isn't really bad at heart, but she's been hardened a lot by her upbringing.

When she goes on and on about love being a weakness, I think she really believes that.  She probably got real jaded about the whole subject given her mother's activities.  Still, she wishes it weren't so as can be seen by the softer moments if you romance her.

Don't need to romance her to see it. Just take her to the Fade. That's one of the most subtlely awesome moments in the game IMO. She's completely contemptuous and dismissive of the idea of a loving, doting Flemeth, and well she should be. But the sloth demon wouldn't have tried to trap her with it if there weren't some part of her that genuinely did wish for it to be true.

Anyway I don't think she's either. She's not into outright evil -- she could have raped Alistair or Loghain easily enough if the Warden turns down the Ritual, Flemeth certainly would have, but it doesn't even seem to have occurred to her -- but I think true altruism is a little beyond her. She'll do nice things, even difficult things, for people she cares about, and for a cause that seems important to her, but I'll eat a shoe if her cause turns out to be "the good of mankind." It's probably something more like "the return of the Old Gods" or "the return of universal magic" or something along those lines (I think she's being both honest and telling when she says that some things are worth preserving), which may end up being to the general benefit of mankind as a side-effect. But that's not "good." Not in the D&D alignment sense anyway.

On the other hand, I think Flemeth might indeed have a genuinely altruistic endgame. She, of course, is clearly evil, but she is an abomination. It's a bit to be expected.

[Danyu]

I think she's just one of those characters that puts herself above everyone else. A case of the me-syndrome. Where she just makes sure she'll always end up on the greener side of things.

Anything that threatens her or her way of existence, she'll spat at or even kill to keep having. She's also got a case of being power hungry.

[GodWood]

Deliciously evil

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

She is just a child of nature who cares little for humanity. And nature can be both benevolent and cruel.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 22 septembre 2011 - 06:23 .

[Urzon]

I think Morrigan (and Flemeth) are for the greater good of Morrigan (and Flemeth).

Something big and very much bad seems to be planned for the future. If that Big Bad wants to wipe out and kill everyone in Thedas (including Morrigan and Flemeth), I can easily see them help out the underdogs (something they very much loath) if it meant it spares their lifes in the end.

Morrigan seems to be on the lighter side of grey though. All her life she has only known Flemeth's way of doing things (power above all else), but has she travels with the Warden; she grows into her own character more. She starts to except some of the feelings she repressed during her childhood (caring, love, companionship, and all the other mushy-mushy feelings),

Flemeth is more of the darker side of grey, and i personally see her more like Death from the Supernatural series (one of my favorite character on that series btw), It is not like she cares or not what happens to us. She is just above it all. Though, I could see her as trying to restore balance like Death is trying to in the series. Even more so if an outside force is playing in HER sandbox (Thedas).

[Darkly Tranquil]

I think that Morrigan is basically motivated by the neccessity of saving the world; whether that counts as good, bad, selfish, or altruistic, I shall leave up to you.

When she is told by Flemeth that she must go with the Wardens, she looks worried and afraid and says, "But, I'm not ready." Flemeth replies, "You must be or all will be lost." (or words to that effect). I interpret this to mean that Flemeth and Morrigan know what is to come and what must be done to prevent it. Flemeth sent Morrigan with the Wardens in order create the OGB, which is (I guess) part of the whole plan to save the world.

However, although I think that Morrigan's goal is ultimately for the greater good (even if her motivation is personal power) her methods of achieving this goal are completely pragmatic, which means that she comes across as callous and calculating. When the fate of the world is at stake, nothing can divert her from her mission.

Perhaps a more important question, as noted by Urzon above, is what is Flemeth's role in all this? She seems to crop up in pivotal events on a semi-regular basis (Stolen Throne, DAO, DA2), nudging the course of events in a particular direction. Flemeth seems to be a sort of all knowing oracle figure who is directing events in order to counter whatever existential threat is to come that she has forseen.

[Satyricon331]

Does the mabari still like her in WH if you rivalled Morrigan?  I've only ever befriended her.  Come to think of it, the dog not liking her if rivalled might be a bit too much to expect of a DLC.

Quething wrote...
Anyway I don't think she's either. She's not into outright evil -- she could have raped Alistair or Loghain easily enough if the Warden turns down the Ritual, Flemeth certainly would have, but it doesn't even seem to have occurred to her -- but I think true altruism is a little beyond her. She'll do nice things, even difficult things, for people she cares about, and for a cause that seems important to her, but I'll eat a shoe if her cause turns out to be "the good of mankind." It's probably something more like "the return of the Old Gods" or "the return of universal magic" or something along those lines (I think she's being both honest and telling when she says that some things are worth preserving), which may end up being to the general benefit of mankind as a side-effect. But that's not "good." Not in the D&D alignment sense anyway.

Yeah, I've thought of Morri as a more neutral character who has prominent shades of good and evil.  I think DA:The Revelation shows she's capable of feeling empathy and concern, at least if romanced or friended, and while I can't shake the feeling that one of the justifications/rationalizations to herself she has for the Dark Ritual is altruistic, I agree I doubt it's the sole, or even a decisive, reason.  I can understand people thinking she's evil though (particularly in a D&D alignment sense).  She does seem to have an evil streak.  Her attitude towards the mages in the tower - they deserve death since they haven't fought to the death for freedom - is a little sadistic and not really consistent with an interpretation of her that she's solely out for some greater good (the casualness she's willing to throw those slaves' lives away in that deal with Caladrius is also suggestive that it's not purely out of some greater-good calculation).  Still, it's interesting to see how few people think she's evil.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 22 septembre 2011 - 08:02 .

[GodWood]

Satyricon331 wrote...
Still, it's interesting to see how few people think she's evil.

They're blinded by their weenies.

[Satyricon331]

GodWood wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...
Still, it's interesting to see how few people think she's evil.

They're blinded by their weenies.

I'm gay 

Actually, I think it's largely because we know so little about her motivations and most players befriended her, meaning they think about her in light of friendship.  When I try to think about her actions outside of my characters' friendships w/ her though, the thing that strikes me is that it'd be really straightforward if her motivations were evil, and it just seems too simple and straightforward to be what Bioware would do with her.

[GodWood]

Satyricon331 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...
Still, it's interesting to see how few people think she's evil.

They're blinded by their weenies.

I'm gay 

Pwned me.

Actually, I think it's largely because we know so little about her motivations and most players befriended her, meaning they think about her in light of friendship.  When I try to think about her actions outside of my characters' friendships w/ her though, the thing that strikes me is that it'd be really straightforward if her motivations were evil, and it just seems too simple and straightforward to be what Bioware would do with her.

Honestly I cannot fathom thinking she's anything but.
All her actions and dialogue throughout the game point towards her being a sadistic, power hungry, self serving b*tch. And that's why I like her.