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Did anyone else want to kill Sister Nightingale?


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#226
phaonica

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IanPolaris wrote...

Divine's in the past have proven to have less wisdom and restraint than your typical mob, and the current one seems more of the same honestly. 


If you think that the Chantry Divine has less restraint than a mob (in Kirkwall, the city where nearly no one does anything logically) it's because you *want* to see more danger there.

You could argue that the Divines have a history of not showing restrait. So does a mob.
You could argue that this Divine is showing signs of being stupid. So does a mob.
You could argue that the Divine will react based on incomplete/falsified evidence. So will a mob.

The threat of the mob rioting in Kirkwall is no less real than the threat of an Exalted March.

Modifié par phaonica, 24 septembre 2011 - 07:21 .


#227
IanPolaris

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phaonica wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Divine's in the past have proven to have less wisdom and restraint than your typical mob, and the current one seems more of the same honestly. 


If you think that the Chantry Divine has less restraint than a mob (in Kirkwall, the city where nearly no one does anything logically) it's because you *want* to see more danger there.

You could argue that the Divines have a history of not showing restrait. So does a mob.
You could argue that this Divine is showing signs of being stupid. So does a mob.
You could argue that the Divine will react based on incomplete/falsified evidence. So will a mob.

The threat of the mob rioting in Kirkwall is no less real than the threat of an Exalted March.


The thing is we see no evidence that there was any "mob" ready to beseige the city after Ander's Act let alone against the mages.  However, there is plenty of evidence of Chantry wrong doing both currently and historically.

-Polaris

#228
Jedi Master of Orion

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Are you saying mobs don't have a long history of doing wrong things? You used the specific example of a mob in Kirkwall but a vauger general example of the Chantry's past wrongdoings.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 septembre 2011 - 08:39 .


#229
IanPolaris

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Are you saying mobs don't have a long history of doing wrong things? You used the specific example of a mob in Kirkwall but a vauger general example of the Chantry's past wrongdoings.


Not at all.  What I am saying is that there is direct evidence that the Divine was meddling (or getting ready to meddle) in Kirkwall in an extremely reactive and shortsighted manner (why else would Lelianna demand the Grand Cleric to leave and not even be willing to talk about any other cause but the resolutionists?)  Seems to me that the batty old Divine had already made up her mind.  Meredith certainly seemed to think so since she went over Elthina's head to request a Right of Annulment...she wouldn't do that if she thought the Divine wouldn't agree I think.

OTOH, there is no evidence at all (other than Meredith's bald assertion) that there was any mob ready to kill all mages and wreck Kirkwall.  In fact Meredith clearly wants to slaughter all mages in Kirkwall so badly she can taste it...and that means her word on this can not be trusted.

-Polaris

#230
TEWR

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IanPolaris wrote...

phaonica wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Divine's in the past have proven to have less wisdom and restraint than your typical mob, and the current one seems more of the same honestly. 


If you think that the Chantry Divine has less restraint than a mob (in Kirkwall, the city where nearly no one does anything logically) it's because you *want* to see more danger there.

You could argue that the Divines have a history of not showing restrait. So does a mob.
You could argue that this Divine is showing signs of being stupid. So does a mob.
You could argue that the Divine will react based on incomplete/falsified evidence. So will a mob.

The threat of the mob rioting in Kirkwall is no less real than the threat of an Exalted March.


The thing is we see no evidence that there was any "mob" ready to beseige the city after Ander's Act let alone against the mages.  However, there is plenty of evidence of Chantry wrong doing both currently and historically.

-Polaris


Didn't Aveline say Donnic and the rest of the Guard were keeping the citizens under control?

#231
LobselVith8

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phaonica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I thought it had to do with the premise that Meredith is ordering the execution of an entire population of people for an act that they didn't commit because she wants to appease the hypothetical mob, while Leliana seems to be saying she'll encourage an Exalted March against Kirkwall since she was sent to investigate the situation and doesn't seem to be dissuaded from sacking an entire city despite not having all the facts.


But you have said that Meredith's hypothetical mob is imaginary.


Meredith's mention of a mob is imagined - she's acting on what she imagines will be the reaction of the people. She orders the murder of hundreds of men, women, and children because she imagines a mob will demand their deaths, even though they are innocent of Anders' actions. 

phaonica wrote...

You have implied that, despite what Meredith would have you believe, there would be no mob to or not to appease because there is no evidence that the mages Meredith wants to kill are involved with the destruction of the Chantry, except the misguided conclusions that Meredith might propose to the mob.


I have implied no such thing. I addressed that Meredith has ordered the execution of an entire population of people for an act that Anders alone is responsible for.

phaonica wrote...

So why is the Divine's hypothetical Exalted March not imaginary?


Leliana is a representative of the Divine who is warning Hawke to tell Grand Cleric Elthina to leave the city and seems to be telling Hawke that she'll recommend that the Divine pursue an Exalted March even though she doesn't actually know the source behind the unrest. Leliana admits that she merely thinks the Resolutionists may be responsible for the unrest in Kirkwall based on her actual dialogue; even she doesn't seem to know for certain, despite that being the task that she was assigned to investigate when she was sent to Kirkwall.

phaonica wrote...

You said yourself that Leliana had no actual evidence that the mages targeted by the Exalted March are involved with the unrest, yet she would take whatever misguided conclusions she had made to the Divine.


Leliana admits she doesn't actually know if the Resolutionists are behind the unrest in Kirkwall. She says they "may" be responsible, not that they actually are responsible. Her lack of certainty doesn't seem to dissuade her from condemning the entire city, however.

phaonica wrote...

Do you think the Divine would ask less questions than a mob?


We see what happens when a leader gives in to the mob in Amaranthine. Why should an entire population of people who are innocent die simply because of the actions of one, single man who is not a member of their community? Anders is a former Grey Warden, and before that he was a member of the Circle of Ferelden. Why should every man, woman, and child perish because of the actions of one apostate? That was the crux of my argument elsewhere about this issue in the threads about the Right of Annulment that Meredith enacted.

I'm addressing in this thread the potential threat that Leliana poses if she encourages an Exalted March against Hawke's home. I'd imagine Hawke may care more about saving his home than sparing Leliana, especially if she's going to back a plan to attack Kirkwall.

#232
Augustei

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LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see why you think there are more.

With the templars being Kirkwalls standing army and the second biggest templar force in the world - You'd think its second in command would be accompanied by some form of honor guard or something. Could you  see a Lieutenant-General apprehending dangerous persons accompanied by a total of two men? No you wouldn't see that, he would have been accompanied by a platoon of Templars

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 24 septembre 2011 - 10:30 .


#233
Augustei

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LobselVith8 wrote...
Which is why I'd imagine Ser Thrask could easily provide an explanation that didn't involve the Amell family.

Pretty big and likely false assumption there, Ser Thrask only accepted Hawke killing templars because their leader was a ****** who was going to kill all the mages anyway, Whereas Cullen was simply taking Bethany into Custody - And whome is his Knight-Captain. I doubt Thrask would approve the killing of Templars who were just doing their job and taking a mage to the circle. Your assumtion that he would is wishful thinking

LobselVith8 wrote...
There's no difference in Hawke protecting random strangers and Hawke
protecting his sister, so you don't know that Thrask won't settle for
this.

And you dont know that he will settle for it. Theres a big difference, One case has Hawke killing Templars for not doing their duty properly and about to commit murder, the other case has Hawke killing the Knight-Captain of the order for doing his duty and taking a mage to the circle.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 24 septembre 2011 - 11:12 .


#234
Augustei

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IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Even if you killed Cullen and his goon, what are you going to do with the bodies? Share a cramped hovel with them? Try and sneak them out without getting caught in a city that we're told is full to bursting at all times of the day?


Hamburger Helper.  Dog eats well for a few days.  No mess and no fuss.

It's not like people (even important people) don't go missing all the time in Low Town.....

-Polaris


I'd be so much more convenient if Hawke already lived in his estate when Cullen came around wouldn't it? Just head down into the cellers with the body and chuck anywhere in Darktown.

#235
Heimdall

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[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...

 No, your missing it.  Meredith's abuses of power are reactionary.  The root is in the deeds of mages like the Resolutionists and a few individual corrupt Templars acting on their own.  They set off the vicious cycle that feeds Meredith's draconian rule.  Meredith is not the root, she is a symptom.  She exasterbates the problem. drastically even, but she doesn't cause it.
[/quote]

No, I am not missing it.   Rogue mages (some of which are maleficar of the worst sort) and rogue templars have always existed and always will exist.  That is part and  parcel with human nature and the setting itself.  It's particularly easy (and dangerous) to be a bloodmage in Kirkwall which means the Templars tend to be less forgiving, but this has been true for over seven hundred years and only now is the city ready to revolt.

What changed?  Meredith, that's what.  Meredith's overweaning, dictatorial, abusive, and in many cases frankly illegal uses of her power and usupation of civil power that she is NOT supposed to have is the very root of the problem.  It is WHY what had been a minor irritant before has suddenly blown up into the verge of an open revolution.

Meredith is the Key Log.  Even a blind nug should be able to see it.[/quote]  I'm not denying that she made the problem worse, but you're missing it still.  Of course the Templars have had to deal with rogue mages and members of their own order.  That by no means indicates that the Resolutionists where just nother day in the office.  An entire organization of demon summonng blood mages in a city with as thin a veil as Kirkwall, that was not normal by any stretch.  That is what changed.  Meredith is reactionary.[/quote]

[quote][quote]
The Seekers and the Divine should be concerned about a bunch of rogue blood Mages that are at the root of the issue, Meredith is a secondary concern by comparison.  More to the point, the Divine has to consider that the situation might be beyond salvaging, hence the possability of an Exalted March.

[/quote]

WRONG.  Rogue bloodmages have always been present.  That means they are NOT the reason that Kirkwall is going up in flames.  Meredith and her frank abuse of power and incompetant leadership is, and a blind nug could see that with any kind of investigation in five minutes....but Lelianna is too lazy to do her damn job.  For that alone she deserves the murder knife right along with her boss and the Grand Cleric (for failing to do their jobs as well).

-Polaris[/quote]  Zealous knight commanders have always been present, a militarized sect of bloodmages out to push everything in Kirkwall to a head is not.  Your intent is clearly to lay all the blame anywhere but the mages, but that is simply not so.  The Resolutionists would have continued to push the situation in Kirkwall regardless of Meredith, and it simply would have taken longer for the situation to get as bad as it did,  It still would have if not for Anders' idiocy.  Leliana realized this, clearly shes better at her job than you are.

#236
Heimdall

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Ryzaki wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


DPSSOC wrote...

Thrask isn't going to step in for this.  He assisted and kept quiet about Kerass because he was planning to do wrong (in Thrask's eyes).  You don't have that benefit with Cullen, he was just a Templar doing his duty.


There's no difference in Hawke protecting random strangers and Hawke protecting his sister, so you don't know that Thrask won't settle for this.

  The situation is entirely different.  Thrask changed his tune before Act 3, but after what happened to his daughter he tells you that he believes the Circle is the safest place for Mages.  He wanted Hawke to help him save Mage lives specifically because he doesn't want innocents killed.  He has no qualms about the circle.  Hawke, on the other hand, slaughtered a Templar who was escorting Bethany to the circle, something Thrask supports.  He is not going to intervene to help you after that.


Except that's exactly what he does do if you decide in act 1 to attack the templars to help Grace. :/ 

  No, he did that to stop a Templar who was out of bounds and going to kill an innocent.  He is not going to help you after you killed a Templar that was just doing his duty and brining a mage to the circle, something he believes in.

#237
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...


Just about anyone could see that Kirkwall might be headed in the direction Anders pushed it.  He only speeded the process along.  Knowing that widespread devestating harm could result generates very real very rational concerns, concerns that she took to heart and sent her most trusted agent to investigate.  Why would she assume the problem was on the Templar's end when foreign Mages not in the circle were stirring up much of the trouble?  Besides, Meredith was not incompetent in her duties, just overly harsh in their fulfillment.  What would the Seekers do?  Tell her not to guard the Mages more closely when it is a very real possibility some of them may be working with the Resolutionists?[/quote]

Because the Templars are ruling Kirkwall. They are the ones in charge of the place. And the Divine is in charge of them. It's called Chain of command. In normal, competant military or political organizations, it works. In the case of the Chantry, it's virtually non-existant.

And Anders did not push Kirkwall in any direction until he blew up the Chantry. which came at the end of act 3. After the Divine's agent had long been gone. He only matters in the picture at that point, before that, he's just another faceless apostate milling about Kirkwall. Before that, it was Meredith, and probably Orsino, though we don't see anything going on with the Circle mages at all, so its hard to tell.

Regardless, Chain of command. Sh*t rolls uphill as well as downhill. It was clearly obvious the Chain of command was breaking down, especially when Meredith was going over Elthina's head to get her annulment invoked.


[/quote]  No, the first thing she should be looking into is the cause of the trouble.  And she did, she found that the Resolutionists are stirring up trouble for the Templars, setting off the reaction I mentioned earlier.  Guilty mages should matter to you when judging the divine's actions.  They certainly matter to the Divine and factor into her decision.  Why send Seekers when the source of the troubles is a group of Mages, and thus a Templar issue?  Clearly, she realized that the Templars of Kirkwall were not succeeding in their task, for she thought an Exalted March might be necesary to contain their failure.
[/quote]

Yes, she should be looking into the cause of the trouble. The problem was, she was only looking at the Resolutionists, and they were only part of the problem, and a problem that was growing due to the incompetance and mismanagement of Meredith and Elthina. She can worry about resolutionists till her heart's content, and ignore her own ranks that are creating the situation where extremists thrive.

Meredith was fully incompetant. Hell, you don't even need an investigation that deep to reveal this fact.

1. She had turned the City of Kirkwall against the Templars. Templars, who are often seen by the common folk as valiant protectors, are now seen as Tyrants and assh*les by the common folk. That Meredith destroyed perhaps the Templar's most powerful resource, the love and respect of the common people, should have been looked at right then and there, because this is something unheard of in most of the rest of Thedas. Where templars are still respected and loved by the common folk. And this has been going on for years, because in Act 1, Cullen even says that people are starting to look unkindly at the Templar order. This reeks of incompetance.

2. Her own men were conspiring with blood mages to overthrow her. Hello. Red flags. If there was any reason to investigate the templars that in itself should have garnered a closer look.

3. Kirkwall in Act 3 was overrun with escaped apostates. The Templar's job is to hunt them down and keep them under wraps. They are obviously failing miserably at this task. That alone should make the Divine send a whole unit of Seekers to figure out what the problem is. Why the Templars are not doing their job. And well...isn't that was the Seekers are supposed to do? Step in when Templars are failing their duties?

4. Orsino. Meredith, as Knight Commander, could have very well forced Orsino to allow her to search the tower for corruption. The mages are under the Templar's rule. templars have the final say, pretty much, and if meredith was that convinced the tower was corrupt, she could have forced the search, whether the mages liked it or not. She did not. Because she's an idiot.

5. Flagrant abuses were taking place right under her nose, there was corruption in her own ranks. As a military commander, it is not only her job, but responsibility to keep order and function within her own ranks, and to know everything that is happening amongst her men. If she knew about it, she was condoning it. If she didn't, she was an incompetant commander, because it is her job and duty to know exactly what her men are doing. That's standard in ANY military chain of command, and a commander who tried to claim ignorance of their troops actions in a court martial would get stripped of rank and thrown in the brig, and laughed out of the courtroom.

The reason I said I do not care about the resolutionists, is because they are not shown at all, and only mentioned by leliana. Before the quest Faith, I'd spent about 4-5 years in Kirkwall, never meeting any, nor encountering a group of them, or discovering any plot of theirs. Only Act 3 mention of them.

While I do not doubt that they are involved in some manner, the level of their involvement seems pretty minor, with what I've seen in the game. Since I've never met any at all. or really know exactly how they are supposed be stirring things up, I really don't care what they are doing. I don't even hear rumors, or get little hints or evidence, of their activity. other than the Mage Underground, which has been mostly helping apostates escape, something that is not unusual. We had the Mage's Collective in Ferelden, after all.

It was poor writing, I'll admit. If they wanted to have the mages play an equal role in Kirkwall's troubles, they should have shown, and not told us, about the resolutionists. They did not. All they showed me were batsh*t crazy apostates and blood mages. And while problematic in their own right, they are small potatoes compared to what was going on in the bigger picture of Kirkwall. They looked to me more  a symptom of breakdown, incompetance, and corruption, not the cause. The Divine is looking into the symptoms, but not the cause, in Kirkwall.

And the biggest cause of everything I saw boiled down to the two in charge: Meredith and Elthina. Elthina couldn't keep her own zealots in check (Petrice and her templar accomplices) and they almost caused the Qunari to take over. And she did absolutely nothing about Meredith and Orsino, two people she was not only in a position of authroity over, but had the distinct responsibility, as part of her job, to deal with them should they get out of hand.

The  actions of a terrorist group should be secondary to the Divine's concerns when her own ranks are full of corruption, incompetance, and lazieness. That the Divine sent one person, leliana, to investigate the situation, shows she's an idiot. She should have sent an entire contingent of Seekers to investigate everyone in Kirkwall. Instead of sending one person to decide if the city needs to be destroyed.

That is, if the Divine had a brain. Which she clearly does not. Like her predecessors, she is quick to consider an exalted march as a solution for a problem that could have been solved through less violent means. But that's the Chantry in a nutshell.

#238
IanPolaris

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Lord Aesir wrote...

 Zealous knight commanders have always been present, a militarized sect of bloodmages out to push everything in Kirkwall to a head is not.  Your intent is clearly to lay all the blame anywhere but the mages, but that is simply not so.  The Resolutionists would have continued to push the situation in Kirkwall regardless of Meredith, and it simply would have taken longer for the situation to get as bad as it did,  It still would have if not for Anders' idiocy.  Leliana realized this, clearly shes better at her job than you are.


That isn't true you know.  We know that Callenhad himself was accompanied by a rather radical mage revolutionary who may well have been a maleficar.  We know that the Spiral Mage was a maleficar.  The point is that mage opposition has been in open revolt and opposition to the chantry for a very long time.  The Resolutionists are just the most recent manifestation of it.

To equate Meredith with other "Zealous" knight commanders is completely missing the point.  Other "Zealous" knight commanders didn't activally try to illegally seize civil control of government...something that is supposed to be completely out of bounds for Templars.  Other "Zealous" knight commanders had to (hypothetically anyway) at least respect Chantry authority lest they get on the wrong side of the Seekers.  Meredith didn't care and the Chantry let her get away with it.

No, Meredith is the key log and KEY PRIME CAUSE for the unrest in Kirkwall.  Even a blind nug should be able to see that.  Saying otherwise is simply putting on those Chantry blinders....again.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  No.  Lelianna is an idiot.  She has drawn her conclusions in spite of the facts to fit her anti-mage preconceptions.  That's bad spyword all around.  Again, please remove those Chantry blinders.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 septembre 2011 - 12:05 .


#239
Wulfram

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Why would mages, rebel or otherwise, care about Meredith seizing civil authority? It doesn't affect their situation in any way.

#240
IanPolaris

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Wulfram wrote...

Why would mages, rebel or otherwise, care about Meredith seizing civil authority? It doesn't affect their situation in any way.


Point.  Missing it.  If the Knight Commander is willing to illegally seize civil authority, then it means she has no respect for the rules that she is supposed to follow, and is a good bet to act illegally in other ways as well (and she does or at least tolerates such behavior).

More to the point, the key PoV in this thread is the PoV of the Divine/Seekers.  If you have a city seething with rebellious mages, and you quickly find out that your Knight Commander has gone rogue and is seeking/(ab)using civic authority that isn't hers, it's a very good bet that your problem lies with the Knight Commander!

-Polaris

#241
Wulfram

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Well, it's pretty pointless discussing Leliana, the Divine or the Seekers view of Meredith, since we have no indication what it is.

#242
IanPolaris

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Wulfram wrote...

Well, it's pretty pointless discussing Leliana, the Divine or the Seekers view of Meredith, since we have no indication what it is.


Actually we do.  Cassandra tells us (admitted she alludes to it rather than saying it explicitly) but if you review Cassandra's convo with Varic, you find that the Seekers bought Meredith's story hook, line, and sinker and blamed the entire mess on Hawke and his friends.  THAT is how the Divine and Seekers view(ed) Meredith...as a hero that was assaulted and killed by an anti-Chantry Villian named Hawke.

-Polaris

#243
Wulfram

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IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Well, it's pretty pointless discussing Leliana, the Divine or the Seekers view of Meredith, since we have no indication what it is.


Actually we do.  Cassandra tells us (admitted she alludes to it rather than saying it explicitly) but if you review Cassandra's convo with Varic, you find that the Seekers bought Meredith's story hook, line, and sinker and blamed the entire mess on Hawke and his friends.  THAT is how the Divine and Seekers view(ed) Meredith...as a hero that was assaulted and killed by an anti-Chantry Villian named Hawke.


That doesn't show what the view was at the time when Leliana visited Kirkwall.

By the time she interviews Varric, Cassandra clearly does know that Meredith was driven crazy by the idol, because she thinks that was Hawke's plan.

#244
IanPolaris

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Wulfram wrote...

That doesn't show what the view was at the time when Leliana visited Kirkwall.

By the time she interviews Varric, Cassandra clearly does know that Meredith was driven crazy by the idol, because she thinks that was Hawke's plan.


Yes it does.  Admitted it does by implication rather than by explicit statement but it does.  The Chantry/Seekers think that Meredith is the victim and that the revolution was all Hawke's fault and was his plan from the beginning.

If Hawke sides with the mages, Cassandra exclaims in shock that it was Meredith that provoked Hawke/Mages.

If Hawke sides with the Templars, Cassandra exclaims that it was Meredith that backstabbed Hawke (instead of the other way around which was her clear presumption).

EIther way, it's clear that the Divine/Seekers have had awful intelligence about Kirkwall for years, even after a handpicked Seeker was sent to investigate!

That means Lelianna was too damned lazy to do her DAMNED JOB!

-Polaris

#245
Wulfram

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Yes, Cassandra apparently thinks this was part of Hawke's master plan. But part of that supposed plan was going to the deep roads, recovering the idol and allowing to drive Meredith crazy. Which requires knowledge that Meredith was crazy.

Leliana's visit was before the fight at the gallows, so I'm not sure how she was supposed to determine the precise course of events there.

#246
IanPolaris

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Wulfram wrote...

Yes, Cassandra apparently thinks this was part of Hawke's master plan. But part of that supposed plan was going to the deep roads, recovering the idol and allowing to drive Meredith crazy. Which requires knowledge that Meredith was crazy.

Leliana's visit was before the fight at the gallows, so I'm not sure how she was supposed to determine the precise course of events there.


Point.  Missing it.  If Lelianna had actually done five minutes of real investigating, than all the red flags that have already been listed about would have shown her that the Knight Commander was incompetant at best...and has been for years (well before Hawke ever arrived even).

The fact this comes as such a shock to Cassandra three years later proves that Lelianna was completely incompetant and the Chantry bought Meredith's side hook-line-and-sinker.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Read Skadi's post above.  It's rather lengthy, but it's a good precise of just how much imcompetance Lelianna should have been able to find with just a few hours (probably a few minutes) of any real investigation into Kirkwall.  Since that never happened, I can only conclude that Lelianna and her boss "knew" all the answers and didn't want to be bothered with doing their own jobs.  After all, who cares about the facts when the Maker whispers the "truth" in your ear?

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 septembre 2011 - 12:52 .


#247
LobselVith8

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Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Almost every Lobselvith8 thread derails into this topic are you really that suprised?

On topic no I like Leliana so I wouldn't want to kill her and it would be stupid for Hawke to do it anyway since she's the only thing keeping the Divine from killing everyone.


I notice some people think it's stupid for others to disagree with them. I don't understand the premise behind such an argument: why can't people simply agree to disagree? Why does the response have to devolve into thinking that the opposing line of thought is stupid?

Why would it be stupid to kill Leliana if she's going to recommend that the Divine pursue an Exalted March against Kirkwall? Because you like Leliana? I don't understand why people think this act should depend on whether Hawke is pro-mage or pro-templar. Isn't a pro-templar Hawke going to suffer as much as pro-mage Hawke if Kirkwall is beseiged by an Exalted March? Hawke Hawke tries and fails to persuade Leliana to convince the Divine not to attack Kirkwall in "Faith," so I don't see why Hawke shouldn't remove her if she's going to condemn the city - and all its inhabitants - to death with her recommendation to the Divine.

#248
Wulfram

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Point. Missing it. If Cassandra didn't think that Meredith's idol induced madness played a role in her downfall, she wouldn't think that the idol was part of Hawke's plan.

And there's no indication that Meredith was incompetent prior to the final act.

#249
Wulfram

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Why would it be stupid to kill Leliana if she's going to recommend that the Divine pursue an Exalted March against Kirkwall?


Because there's no real evidence that Leliana is going to recommend that the Divine attack Kirkwall.  While there's every reason to believe that if this is a possibility the Divine is considering, Leliana's murder would trigger it.

#250
IanPolaris

IanPolaris
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Wulfram wrote...

Point. Missing it. If Cassandra didn't think that Meredith's idol induced madness played a role in her downfall, she wouldn't think that the idol was part of Hawke's plan.


Point. Missing it.  Cassandra thinks the Idol rotted Meredith's brain because she has all sorts of Templar Eyewitness testimony saying it did at the very end, it would would be fairly easy to track that lyrium to Bartrand (and Meredith even says it's from that idol).  Combine that with the Chantry already viewing Meredith as the Victim, and the "Hawke villiany" becomes almost the conventional wisdom.

The point is that the Chantry clearly didn't know the situation in Kirkwall and hadn't for years in spite of having a Seeker sent there to investigate!


And there's no indication that Meredith was incompetent prior to the final act.


Wrong.  Read Skadi's post above.  If Lelianna had done even a few minutes worth of real investigating, there were strong signs of almost criminal incompetance by Meredith as soon as Act I (even before Hawke gets off the boat in fact).

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 septembre 2011 - 01:17 .