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[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why would it be stupid to kill Leliana if she's going to recommend that the Divine pursue an Exalted March against Kirkwall?

Because there's no real evidence that Leliana is going to recommend that the Divine attack Kirkwall.  While there's every reason to believe that if this is a possibility the Divine is considering, Leliana's murder would trigger it.

Lelianna has already made up her mind.  If you try to tell her things aren't that bad (which is what Elthina asked you to do btw), Lelianna completely disregards whatever you say and demands that the grand cleric leave Kirkwall.

That isn't a "possibility" of an Exalted March.  It's a certainty.

-Polaris

[Urzon]

IanPolaris wrote...

Point.  Missing it.  If the Knight Commander is willing to illegally seize civil authority, then it means she has no respect for the rules that she is supposed to follow, and is a good bet to act illegally in other ways as well (and she does or at least tolerates such behavior).

More to the point, the key PoV in this thread is the PoV of the Divine/Seekers.  If you have a city seething with rebellious mages, and you quickly find out that your Knight Commander has gone rogue and is seeking/(ab)using civic authority that isn't hers, it's a very good bet that your problem lies with the Knight Commander!

-Polaris

The Chantry doesn't see Meredith "going rogue" though. Kirkwall has alway needed a strict Knight Commander, ever since the Imperium made and then build it on a lake of blood. They Chantry only sees it as it being the mages fault.

The Chantry sees a Circle of rebellious mages: They put in place a strict Knight Commander.
The Chantry sees gangs of blood mages start roaming a city: They allow the KC more power to put them down.
The Chantry sees that the blood mages aren't going away: The declare an Exalted March and put an end to the problem.

Everyone seems to think that the Chantry should have seen that Meredith was a problem. While she was a big part of the problem, the Chantry will never see it that way while there are still gangs of blood mage and apostates roaming the city summoning demons and causing all sorts of panic with the general population.

And even if they did get rid of Meredith and replaced her with another templar, do you really think all the blood mages and insane apostates, that area of Kirkwall itself makes, will just instantly disappear? The only thing insane super sayian Meredith caused was the problem to come to a head faster. Given another 10-20 years, i'm sure there would have still been a mage/templar war.

[whykikyouwhy]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Almost every Lobselvith8 thread derails into this topic are you really that suprised?

On topic no I like Leliana so I wouldn't want to kill her and it would be stupid for Hawke to do it anyway since she's the only thing keeping the Divine from killing everyone.

I notice some people think it's stupid for others to disagree with them. I don't understand the premise behind such an argument: why can't people simply agree to disagree? Why does the response have to devolve into thinking that the opposing line of thought is stupid?

Why would it be stupid to kill Leliana if she's going to recommend that the Divine pursue an Exalted March against Kirkwall? Because you like Leliana? I don't understand why people think this act should depend on whether Hawke is pro-mage or pro-templar. Isn't a pro-templar Hawke going to suffer as much as pro-mage Hawke if Kirkwall is beseiged by an Exalted March? Hawke Hawke tries and fails to persuade Leliana to convince the Divine not to attack Kirkwall in "Faith," so I don't see why Hawke shouldn't remove her if she's going to condemn the city - and all its inhabitants - to death with her recommendation to the Divine.

It's not that people find it stupid for there to be disagreement (though I say that for myself...maybe some actually think that) - it's that even in agreeing-to-disagree, there is usually some acknowledgement of valid points. A "hey, overall, I don't agree with you, but I can see where you are coming from."

Your issues seem to be with the writers. Again, that's fine. But sometimes it seems that you have these huge blinders on and won't even allow for any counterpoint to be made, or that a counterpoint could even have a shred of validity. The fact is, there is much that we simply don't know. The why's or the how's or any number of intricate details from the devs that have to do with the presence, or absence, of certain story elements. They may have a plan. They may be making it up as they go along. They may have considered all possible divergent paths but chose X, Y, Z for a reason. They may have simply never conceived of a certain path. So until such time as they make a declaration one way or the other, the vitriolic diatribes about the injustices of their character development take on the air of unwavering disapproval, and therefore are not conducive to actual conversation and discourse.

I've said before that it's Bioware's story. We only hold so much ownership in it and really, it's more like rental rights. Ultimately, we have to let them tell the tale. And we can wait to see how they explain everything. It's fine to discuss the pros and cons, the likes and dislikes, but when you start talking about unyielding plot armor, and your own stance is unyielding, it's incongruent. There has to be a bit of give and take for discourse to flow.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wulfram wrote...

And there's no indication that Meredith was incompetent prior to the final act.

There is plenty of evidence Meredith was incompetant in Acts 1 and 2. Long before she ever got a hold of her purty idol. She wasn't raving mad like she was at the end of Act 3. But one does not need to be crazy to be incompetant. Kirkwall was going downhill in Acts 1 and 2. Her incompetance bore it's fullest fruit in Act 3, but was apparant in Acts 1 and 2. Even Cullen was questioning her in Act 2, and that's 3 years before Act 3.

Of course, this is something that Elthina should have been dealing with, but didn't. Because she is just as incompetant. The Divine should have been investigating her failure to act as well.

That's what internal affairs are supposed to be for. To deal with incompetance, corruption, and failure within an organization, before the problem gets out of hand. No one did this. The Seekers only came after everything went to sh*t. Too little too late.

[IanPolaris]

Urzon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Point.  Missing it.  If the Knight Commander is willing to illegally seize civil authority, then it means she has no respect for the rules that she is supposed to follow, and is a good bet to act illegally in other ways as well (and she does or at least tolerates such behavior).

More to the point, the key PoV in this thread is the PoV of the Divine/Seekers.  If you have a city seething with rebellious mages, and you quickly find out that your Knight Commander has gone rogue and is seeking/(ab)using civic authority that isn't hers, it's a very good bet that your problem lies with the Knight Commander!

-Polaris

The Chantry doesn't see Meredith "going rogue" though. Kirkwall has alway needed a strict Knight Commander, ever since the Imperium made and then build it on a lake of blood. They Chantry only sees it as it being the mages fault.

Which proves the Chantry is stupid, but we knew that.  Moving on.

The Chantry sees a Circle of rebellious mages: They put in place a strict Knight Commander.
The Chantry sees gangs of blood mages start roaming a city: They allow the KC more power to put them down.
The Chantry sees that the blood mages aren't going away: The declare an Exalted March and put an end to the problem.

The Chantry never gave it's blessing for Meredith to assume the effective role of Viscountess.  She did that on her own.  The Chantry merely turned a blind eye.  Even as soon as Act I, KC Cullen is saying that the Templars are getting a bad reputation.  That alone should have demanded a full Seeker investigation...otherwise why bother to have Seekers at all?  The fact the the Templars couldn't or wouldn't get the bloodmage problem under control certainly should have demanded a full Seeker investigation with OPEN minds.  Yeah, right.

Everyone seems to think that the Chantry should have seen that Meredith was a problem. While she was a big part of the problem, the Chantry will never see it that way while there are still gangs of blood mage and apostates roaming the city summoning demons and causing all sorts of panic with the general population.

You don't have to be pro-mage to see that Meredith was the root cause of the problem.  The fact she was flouting even Chantry law should have been a dead giveaway.  The fact her own Templars many with sterling reputations (and yes Ser Thrask has a sterling reputation) are turning on her should have been a dead giveaway.

And even if they did get rid of Meredith and replaced her with another templar, do you really think all the blood mages and insane apostates, that area of Kirkwall itself makes, will just instantly disappear? The only thing insane super sayian Meredith caused was the problem to come to a head faster. Given another 10-20 years, i'm sure there would have still been a mage/templar war.

Problems like that don't instantly dissapear unless you are willing to kill everyone in which case I like the Chantry even less than I did already (and that's a real trick since I dislike it intensely right now).  As for the inevitability of a mage-templar war, that is almost certainly right given the instransigence of the Chantry and the growing impatience within the fraternaties of mages, but it didn't have to happen in Kirkwall and it didn't have to happen right then.  That was entirely Meredith's doing.  Even a few minutes of any REAL and open minded investigation would have revealed that...pro-mage or not.  The fact is that the Chantry's intelligence of Kirkwall was criminally bad especially since a Seeker had already been there recently...but Lelianna had made up her own anti-mage mind and couldn't be bothered to do any real investigating or any real work.

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

edit: Meredith is often criticised for her harshness prior to Act 3.  Harshness is not the same as incompetence.

IanPolaris wrote...

Lelianna has already made up her mind.  If you try to tell her things aren't that bad (which is what Elthina asked you to do btw), Lelianna completely disregards whatever you say and demands that the grand cleric leave Kirkwall.

That isn't a "possibility" of an Exalted March.  It's a certainty.

-Polaris

Leliana says that the situation in Kirkwall is extremely serious - which it clearly is - and that the Grand Cleric is in danger - which she clearly was.  Nowhere does she endorse an Exalted March.  edit:  If Leliana's advice had been listened to, the Annullment of the Kirkwall circle might have been avoided.

The Exalted March is merely speculation on the part of Elthina.

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 septembre 2011 - 01:19 .

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lelianna has already made up her mind.  If you try to tell her things aren't that bad (which is what Elthina asked you to do btw), Lelianna completely disregards whatever you say and demands that the grand cleric leave Kirkwall.

That isn't a "possibility" of an Exalted March.  It's a certainty.

-Polaris

Leliana says that the situation in Kirkwall is extremely serious - which it clearly is - and that the Grand Cleric is in danger - which she clearly was.  Nowhere does she endorse an Exalted March.  edit:  If Leliana's advice had been listened to, the Annullment of the Kirkwall circle might have been avoided.

The Exalted March is merely speculation on the part of Elthina.

It's like recalling an ambassador when military tensions are high.  Doing so is a sign that a declaration of war is imminent.  Same, same.  In this case, there is no reason to think that the Grand Cleric wouldn't be as safe as houses UNLESS the Divine had already made up her mind that she was going to eradicate the whole city.  [I think it's safe to assume that no one was expecting Anders to do what he did.]

As such, Ethina's assumption isn't much of an 'assumption' but a correct reading of the political tea leaves.

-Polaris

Edit (in response to edit above):  If Elthina had left, there certainly would have been either an annulment or exalted march anyway.  Either the Divine herself would grant Meredith the Annulment (and Meredith did go over Elthina's head), or because of the messed up chain of command per DG, the moment Elthina left, Meredith would kill all the mages anyway on her own authority as soon as Ethina's ship left the docks....and we are told by DG that this would be 'perfectly legal'.  Either way, as long as Meredith is KC, the Right of Annulment is unavoidable.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 septembre 2011 - 01:24 .

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Wulfram]

IanPolaris wrote...

It's like recalling an ambassador when military tensions are high.  Doing so is a sign that a declaration of war is imminent.  Same, same.  In this case, there is no reason to think that the Grand Cleric wouldn't be as safe as houses UNLESS the Divine had already made up her mind that she was going to eradicate the whole city.  [I think it's safe to assume that no one was expecting Anders to do what he did.]

As such, Ethina's assumption isn't much of an 'assumption' but a correct reading of the political tea leaves.

-Polaris

Crazy mages and templars all over the place, and you don't think it was obvious that Elthina was in danger?  If a mage hadn't killed her, Meredith would have.

Even if an Exalted March was called, there's no reason to think it would eradicate the whole city.

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

It's like recalling an ambassador when military tensions are high.  Doing so is a sign that a declaration of war is imminent.  Same, same.  In this case, there is no reason to think that the Grand Cleric wouldn't be as safe as houses UNLESS the Divine had already made up her mind that she was going to eradicate the whole city.  [I think it's safe to assume that no one was expecting Anders to do what he did.]

As such, Ethina's assumption isn't much of an 'assumption' but a correct reading of the political tea leaves.

-Polaris

Crazy mages and templars all over the place, and you don't think it was obvious that Elthina was in danger?  If a mage hadn't killed her, Meredith would have.

Even if an Exalted March was called, there's no reason to think it would eradicate the whole city.

Um read up on the Exalted Marches and what they did to Northern Rivvain,i.e. so much death that the Veil was Torn.  That takes a LOT of death, so I do think that an Exalted March on Kirkwall means essentially eradicating the city.

As for the rest, Kirkwall had had a blood/rogue-mage problem for centuries but the Grand Cleric and even Senior Sisters/Mothers were never targeted and there was no evidence that this had changed.  Ander's act caught EVERYONE by suprise.  No, the reason the Grand Cleric was asked to leave was because her post was about to become burnt timber atop charred stone.

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

(posting this in a new post because editing in response to an edit in response to an edit would be getting silly)

Meredith has the right to call for Annullment in the event of the Grand Cleric's death. There's no indication she has that power when the GC is merely absent. Knight-Commander Greagoir didn't have the right to annul the Fereldan tower, despite the Grand Cleric being far away.

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

(posting this in a new post because editing in response to an edit in response to an edit would be getting silly)

Meredith has the right to call for Annullment in the event of the Grand Cleric's death. There's no indication she has that power when the GC is merely absent. Knight-Commander Greagoir didn't have the right to annul the Fereldan tower, despite the Grand Cleric being far away.

That isn't what DG said.  DG stated very explicitly (because I made a stink about this point), that the KC can call the annulment in the Grand Cleric's absence.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  In the case of Gregoire, Gregoire wasn't insane, and he had a chain of command and honored it.  In his case, however, his superior was several days away (in Denerim) and he didn't want to move without authorization.  This is what KC Meredith SHOULD have done....asked for the Divine to authorize, but she took her legal rights to their full extent (and almost certainly beyond what the chantry intended).  In short, Meredith was a fruit-loop and Gregoire was not.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 septembre 2011 - 01:33 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wulfram wrote...

edit: Meredith is often criticised for her harshness prior to Act 3.  Harshness is not the same as incompetence.

It is when the harshness not only turns the population against you, but adds to the number of crazy apostates and blood mages. Harsh measures are fine and dandy when called for, but excessive, unfocused use of harshness is still incompetance. It wasn't her harsh treatment of mages that anyone cared about, most people supported her before because she was harsh on the mages.. That guard tells you as much when hawke arrives in Kirkwall before Act 1 starts.

By Act 1, however, after Hawke has been in Kirkwall a year, popular support for meredith has considerably waned, due to her overstepping her bounds and being excessively harsh towards non-mages as well. Popular support is perhaps the templar's most valuable resource, and Meredith blew it. Because she was incompetant.

[Wulfram]

People are shocked by the scale of Anders act, not just the death of the Grand Cleric herself.

The situation in Kirkwall is clearly escalating in Act 3. Sebastian believes Elthina is placing herself at risk by standing between the "maleficarum" and the Templars. The risk to the Grand Cleric is obvious, even if you haven't heard Meredith's growing frustration with her and her increasing tendency to ascribe any opposition to the influence of blood magic.

The post from Mr Gaider I can find says

So long as the Grand Cleric was alive and refused Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment, Meredith's only option was to appeal to the Divine. Once the Grand Cleric was dead, and no immediate successor in evidence, Meredith had the legal authority she needed.

Harshness is not the same as incompetence, nor is unpopularity. And Meredith maintains considerable popular support until the end, anyway.

Elthina clearly says that the Divine will do her best to avoid innocent deaths, which does not fit with the idea she is planning to "eradicate" Kirkwall. Though frankly demolishing the place would be a good idea.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wulfram wrote...


Harshness is not the same as incompetence, nor is unpopularity. And Meredith maintains considerable popular support until the end, anyway.

Harshness not carefully applied IS incompetance. Losing popular support your order once had because of your actions, to the point where the populace is passively interfering with, or turning your nose up, at your order, is incompetance. Applying harsh measures in a hamfisted, generalized manner is incompetance. Which is what Meredith was doing.

She does not maintain considerable popular support. Act 1, Cullen, her second in command, even tells you people now slam their doors on the templars rather than assist them. The templars, like the Chantry, derive their power from popular support. Now they no longer have it, and people are now more willing to harbor dangerous apostates, or look the other way. This was not so when Meredith first took over. People were more willing to help the templars, because they believed in them. Not anymore. And that's just one example.

Elthina clearly says that the Divine will do her best to avoid innocent deaths, which does not fit with the idea she is planning to "eradicate" Kirkwall. Though frankly demolishing the place would be a good idea.

Oh, believe me, from my own personal point of view, the best thing that anyone could do is raze Kirkwall to the ground, since it seems irreperably cursed. But my own opinions aside, the fact that the Divine was talking about an exalted March before Ander's bomb and the fight at the gallows, and before Kirkwall had fallen apart, does not sound like the descision of a competant, intelligent leader with a very calm, rational mind. Who wants to avoid bloodshed.

I will give a real world example to explain better how I see things. In the past couple of years, back in home in Seattle, there has been a disturbing number of police shootings, many of which were questionable or outright illegal. This spree of cops shooting people in above average numbers has caused alot of animosity in the Puget sound region, enough that the president has sent an internal affairs commision to find out what the hell is going on, and see what was wrong in the police departments from the city to the state level. Even to the state attorney general's office and the govonor.

Obviously, the rules and laws of Thedas and modern day US are completely different, as are the specific situations. However, the basic principle still stands: the highest levels of command in the US saw a problem, and instead of sending one guy to Seattle to see if crime was that bad, they went straight to the source: the authorities. To find out why law enforcement was failing so bad that there has been public outcry and animosity towards the police. That some of the cop shooting were indeed legal and justified are not in question, especially when dealing with gangs and crazies who want to commit suicide by cop. But there were too many that involved unarmed, non violent suspects, or even non suspects. The feds sent in their guys to investigate to keep the situation from growing out of control. Sending in an army to raze Seattle to the ground was not even in the books.

Kirkwall was not a foreign city under occupation by foreign, non-Andrastian invaders. It was an Andrastian city under direct control of the templars, a branch of the Chantry. It was not only the right of the divine to intervene directly with internal affairs, it was her responsibility, since Elthina was clearly not doing her job.

Every major problem that occured in Kirkwall occured due to incompetance. Elthina, then meredith, then Orsino, because none of them were even remotely doing their jobs in an effective manner. Crazy apostates and blood mages are a symptom of the failing system, not the cause.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

(posting this in a new post because editing in response to an edit in response to an edit would be getting silly)

Meredith has the right to call for Annullment in the event of the Grand Cleric's death. There's no indication she has that power when the GC is merely absent. Knight-Commander Greagoir didn't have the right to annul the Fereldan tower, despite the Grand Cleric being far away.

That isn't what DG said.  DG stated very explicitly (because I made a stink about this point), that the KC can call the annulment in the Grand Cleric's absence.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  In the case of Gregoire, Gregoire wasn't insane, and he had a chain of command and honored it.  In his case, however, his superior was several days away (in Denerim) and he didn't want to move without authorization.  This is what KC Meredith SHOULD have done....asked for the Divine to authorize, but she took her legal rights to their full extent (and almost certainly beyond what the chantry intended).  In short, Meredith was a fruit-loop and Gregoire was not.

Regarding the bolded, it makes me wonder if Leliana asked Hawke to get Elthina to leave so that maybe Meredith would call for an Annulment on the mages who are the problem in her eyes.

You make some valid points on Leliana's "investigation". You would think that when Leliana became a Seeker she would have told Cassandra that Meredith was the real problem, if she had ever done any real investigating along those lines. Seems like something you shouldn't withhold from your fellow Seekers.

It seems Bioware dun' goofed big time on this one.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 septembre 2011 - 02:40 .

[Monica21]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Regarding the bolded, it makes me wonder if Leliana asked Hawke to get Elthina to leave so that maybe Meredith would call for an Annulment on the mages who are the problem in her eyes.

You make some valid points on Leliana's "investigation". You would think that when Leliana became a Seeker she would have told Cassandra that Meredith was the real problem, if she had ever done any real investigating along those lines. Seems like something you shouldn't withhold from your fellow Seekers.

It seems Bioware dun' goofed big time on this one.

Um, that seems rather far-fetched. I'm one of those people who's reserving judgment on the Divine (I know, right?) until we get the whole story. Until we have a different story than, "It's not safe for her in Kirkwall" then I'm going with that one, if only because it ultimately proves true. 

As for Leliana, she doesn't know about the idol when you meet her in Faith and she wouldn't have known about it until the sword ate Meredith in the Gallows. We don't know how long she was in Kirkwall. It could have been all of Act 3. She may have seen the events transpire, heard about the Gallows and the sword, and then returned to Orlais to convince the Divine not to send Templars against the city, knowing that she doesn't have a lot of time. By that time thought, something has happened, either your Champion Hawke or your Viscount Hawke has fled because of Varric's line about how quickly fortunes change, so no one knows where the idol came from. It's simply traced back to Hawke. 

[TEWR]

Monica21 wrote...

Um, that seems rather far-fetched. I'm one of those people who's reserving judgment on the Divine (I know, right?) until we get the whole story. Until we have a different story than, "It's not safe for her in Kirkwall" then I'm going with that one, if only because it ultimately proves true. 

Maybe a bit, as I just remembered Elthina's lessers may have taken the mantle of Grand Cleric of Kirkwall and Elthina may have been nothing more than a woman in a fancy dress waiting in Orlais.

As for Leliana, she doesn't know about the idol when you meet her in Faith and she wouldn't have known about it until the sword ate Meredith in the Gallows. We don't know how long she was in Kirkwall. It could have been all of Act 3. She may have seen the events transpire, heard about the Gallows and the sword, and then returned to Orlais to convince the Divine not to send Templars against the city, knowing that she doesn't have a lot of time. By that time thought, something has happened, either your Champion Hawke or your Viscount Hawke has fled because of Varric's line about how quickly fortunes change, so no one knows where the idol came from. It's simply traced back to Hawke. 

She wouldn't have to know about the idol (which a Seeker could still assume was due to Hawke) to say that Meredith was the cause of the problems in Act 3.

It's fine to assume Hawke may have caused her insanity, but it's not fine to think that because of her insanity she wasn't the problem at hand.



------------------------------------------------------------------------


edit: Because you said far-fetched, I must post a picture of Farfetch'd:




it's a force of habit. I can't help but post a Farfetch'd picture or link when someone says it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 septembre 2011 - 03:06 .

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Everyone seems to forget, regarding Thrask, that his concern was the other Templars were going to simply kill the mages out of hand, rather than take them to the Circle as they were supposed to. THAT'S what made him look the other way in that instance.

After the templars were dead, why didn't Ser Thrask try to convince Grace and the other Starkhaven Circle mages to go to the Circle of Kirkwall? He never tries to persuade them to go to the Chantry controlled Circle, he fought with Hawke to kill the templars and protect the mages. Why would Thrask turn his back on Hawke if he's trying to protect Bethany from suffering the same fate as Karl?

TJPags wrote...

Makes it rather different than Hawke killing the Knight Commander, who is trying to escort a mage - who is going willingly, btw - to the Circle.

Cullen is the Knight-Captain, and Bethany is pleading with Hawke not to fight with Cullen because she feels her family has a sacrificed a great deal to protect her. That doesn't change the fact that Hawke doing nothing to help Bethany is abandoning her to a Circle of Magi where mages are getting tortured, raped, and made tranquil illegally. Why would her brother do nothing when he's informed of how bad it is for mages in the Gallows? Why would he risk Bethany's life, or her humanity, simply because she doesn't want her brother to put her needs before his own? If Hawke is trying to protect his sister from the likes of Ser Kerras and from the fate that Karl suffered, then I don't see the difference. Hawke is trying to keep Bethany safe in the same way that Ser Thrask wanted the Starkhaven mages safe.

TJPags wrote...

I really think people are overestimating Thrask here. He's a Templar. He believes in the Circle's, and in what Templars are supposed to do. Seems rather far-fetched to think he'd look the other way, or help cover that up.

Except that's precisely what Thrask does with the Starkhaven mages if Ser Kerras is killed, and he never tries to persuade them to go to the Circle of Kirkwall once Ser Kerras and his men are dead. I don't see why Thrask wouldn't do the same if Hawke is trying to protect Bethany from succumbing to the same fate as Karl, or from other templars like Kerras.

TJPags wrote...

I also find the contradictory arguments rather odd. In one, Hawke should kill Leliana because he wants to protect his home, which he cares so much about. In the other, Hawke should kill Cullen, then go on the run with Bethany, abandoning that home that he cares so much about that he should kill the Divine's agent to protect.

Consistency would be nice.

How would Hawke care about a home he's barely lived in when his sister's humanity and life is at stake, especially when there's no risk to Kirkwall at this time? Comparing the man who has barely lived in Kirkwall for a year with the man who has lived there for nearly a decade is a sharp contrast, especially when killing Leliana is about preventing a person who seems to endorse an attack on the city from advising the Divine on this course of action. When Hawke faces Cullen, there isn't a threat to Kirkwall by Divine Justina V, only to his little sister.

I get no impression that Hawke's attempt to persuade Leliana not to argue in favor of the Exalted March worked, since it seems to fall on dear ears. Hawke has lived in Kirkwall for nearly a decade, and remains in the city even after the death of his mother. The Champion is a person who has a reputation among the people and he (or she) could care about Kirkwall because it's his (or her) home - not to mention his friends live there, and he may have a possible love interest living in the city with him. How is the Champion trying to protect his home from an Exalted March by allowing Leliana to leave when she seems to endorse an Exalted March, and even informs Hawke to tell Elthina to leave the city?

[Wulfram]

It is not a fact that the Divine is considering an Exalted March.  All we know is that she was highly concerned by the situation in Kirkwall 
In fact, not even Elthina actually suggests this as a prospect, she only uses it as an illustration that the concern of the Divine is dangerous to attract.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Regarding the bolded, it makes me wonder if Leliana asked Hawke to get Elthina to leave so that maybe Meredith would call for an Annulment on the mages who are the problem in her eyes.

David Gaider wrote

So long as the Grand Cleric was alive and refused Meredith's request for
the Right of Annulment, Meredith's only option was to appeal to the
Divine. Once the Grand Cleric was dead, and no immediate successor in
evidence, Meredith had the legal authority she needed.

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 septembre 2011 - 03:14 .

[Urzon]

Monica21 wrote...
Um, that seems rather far-fetched. I'm one of those people who's reserving judgment on the Divine (I know, right?) until we get the whole story. Until we have a different story than, "It's not safe for her in Kirkwall" then I'm going with that one, if only because it ultimately proves true. 

I'm saving my opinion on the Divine till i know more as well. During Leliana's dlc she seemed more shrewd than anything else, that seems to just be how people stay alive in Orlaisian politics. I don't really she her as the type to rub her hands together and cackle evilly, while going on a spree of punching babies in strollers and throwing sacks of puppies into a lake somewhere. But it is easy to paint her with the same insane brush that Meredith got, because everyone else in DA2 seem to have got the same treatment.

DG said that we don't know everything that is going on in Thedas, since DA2 was only in demonic bubble that is Kirkwall. I'll wait to Asunder or DA3 to make any final decisions.

Modifié par Urzon, 24 septembre 2011 - 03:18 .

[RagingCyclone]

Has anyone stopped to think perhaps Leliana was trailing the Resolutionists, and her goal in Kirkwall was to access their influence in the city? Since she mentions them specifically, and it's the group you encounter in the Chantry, they are her main focus in her investigation? To her and the Divine the other factors everyone seems to argue about (using 20/20 hindsight) are secondary and trivial in the grand scheme of Thedas? That perhaps the reason "all eyes are on Kirkwall" could be that the strongest influence of the Resolutionists exists in the city?

And Lobelsvith8...the way you keep arguing...and myself being a Leliana fan...I could easily become a mage hunter and enjoy it. Until this thread I didn't care one way or the other...but some of the logic you use...mages don't look so good to me right now...just saying.

[Urzon]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Has anyone stopped to think perhaps Leliana was trailing the Resolutionists, and her goal in Kirkwall was to access their influence in the city? Since she mentions them specifically, and it's the group you encounter in the Chantry, they are her main focus in her investigation? To her and the Divine the other factors everyone seems to argue about (using 20/20 hindsight) are secondary and trivial in the grand scheme of Thedas? That perhaps the reason "all eyes are on Kirkwall" could be that the strongest influence of the Resolutionists exists in the city?

And Lobelsvith8...the way you keep arguing...and myself being a Leliana fan...I could easily become a mage hunter and enjoy it. Until this thread I didn't care one way or the other...but some of the logic you use...mages don't look so good to me right now...just saying.

It very much could be. I do think that the Mage Underground in Kirkwall is either secretly or openly ran by the Resolutionists myself. I'm sure there are alot of good-hearted apostates helping free mages from the Gallows, but what better place to pick up new members that from the angry mages that got abused by the templars?

And yes, there seem to be a couple of people that like all mages are the second coming of Jesu.... Andraste herself. They can do no wrong. They are always the victim in any problem, and it's always the Chantry's and templar's fault. No matter what.

.....and their farts smell like roses.

[Xilizhra]

And yes, there seem to be a couple of people that like all mages are the second coming of Jesu.... Andraste herself. They can do no wrong. They are always the victim in any problem, and it's always the Chantry's and templar's fault. No matter what.

Honestly, the vast majority of mages I've seen doing wrong have been doing things that had nothing to do with the Chantry. Danarius, Hadriana, Quentin, the Crimson Weavers... Decimus and eventually Grace did wrong because they were attacking those not of the Chantry/templars. The only mage I know of who was on the morally wrong side of an action against the templars is Tarohne.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Blood mages were clearly the source of all the problems in Kirkwall. Not Meredith. Had there not been a major blood mage problem in Kirkwall (even prior to Meredith's reign), then none of DA2 would have happened. If it was another KC than meredith, a lot of all the problems would STILL have happened. So, perhaps it is time you lay blame where it is due?.... Oh waht am I thinking, that would be blaming the poor and always innocent mages, who could enver dream of harming another living being.