585 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

@Zanallen

Absolutely nothing.

Frankly Polaris, I don't know where you get the idea Meredith would want Elthina dead. Just to call the Right of Annulment? You misjudge her. Fanatical as her paranoia of Mages may be, Meredith has shown no inclination that she desired harm upon the woman she has no doubt looked up to since childhood and her superior in the Chantry. Go over her head and try to get the RoA from the Divine maybe, but killing her is something I don't see her even considering.

If you side with her through Act III, it's clear that Meredith is frustrated with Elthina and thinks that Orsino and "bloodmages" have unreasonable influence with the Grand Cleric.  Given Meredith's paranoia and long standing willingness to 'creatively interpret' the rules, I can easily see a situation where Meredith would have given the quiet OK to have Elthina assassinated.  In fact I think Anders merely beat Meredith to the punch.

-Polaris

and any successors that may take up the mantle of Grand Cleric would either be killed for not agreeing with Meredith (for the same reasons), side with Meredith out of fear, or side with her due to a similar mindset.

[TEWR]

DPSSOC wrote...

My read on the GC/KC thing is this. In the event of the death of the GC the KC takes over until a successor is found. This means sending notice to Val Royeux that the current GC has died, and the Divine needs to name a new one. How a successor is chosen I haven't the faintest (perhaps it's just seniorit), regardless not important. The purpose of this is to allow a smooth transition without a lot of down-time. The KC can continue to perform his/her duties including those which would normally involve GC approval. In most cases this doesn't cause an issue but also in most cases the Circles aren't located in cities that are sitting on a mountain of crazy.

Regarding Gregoire if I remember correctly he isn't the Knight Commander his is a Knight Commander (Mages Collective has you deliver Lyrium Potions to one of two KC's) so it's possible that, even if the Fereldan GC is dead or incommunicado, authority falls to another.

I believe the next Grand Cleric would be a Mother, as they are just below the Grand Cleric in terms of authority.

As for Ferelden's Grand Cleric, I believe she's Grand Cleric of the entire nation of Ferelden. They preside over numerous Chantries in their region. So if she were to die, I don't know what would happen.

[DPSSOC]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I believe the next Grand Cleric would be a Mother, as they are just below the Grand Cleric in terms of authority.

Well yes but is it just the next senior mother, is it one recommended by the previous GC, is it one selected by the Divine based on their record, do the Reverred Mothers in Kirkwall nominate/elect one of their own, do they all have a mud wrestling competition (apologies for the mental image), etc.  Again it's not really relevant because even if it is just the next senior Mother it's still going to take time to figure out who survived and who has seniority durring which time Meredith is in charge.  If Elthina were going away she would no doubt have said, "I'm taking a trip to Val Royeux, Binky's in charge." eliminating Meredith's window of opportunity.

[TJPags]

Just so we all know what DG said:

David Gaider wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Meridith is not a member of the Chantry Clergy and certainly not the Grand Cleric.  She had no more right to declare a Right of Annulment than KCGregoire did (under far more dire conditions).  She was obligated to seek permission from Divine Justina in absence of a local Grand Cleric,

And you decided this when, exactly?

A Knight-Commander is second-in-command next to the Grand Cleric. With Elthina's death, Meredith was legally in command of the Kirkwall Chantry-- such as it was, and certainly in the absence of any ranking Revered Mother or the Divine herself. Cullen's objection was not that her invocation of the Rite was illegal, it was that it was unjustified.

David Gaider wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Since when?  It was always my understanding (based on what KC Gregoire says in DAO in a much more dire situation in the middle of a civil war where he is out of contact with the Grand Cleric) that the Templars don't have that authority and AREN'T in the Chantry chain of command at all.  Your own codex entries regarding the structure of the chantry also denies what you just posted, so please explain again why all these prior lore and codex entries are wrong?

Sigh.

Greagoir is out of contact with the Grand Cleric. He has no reason to believe she is dead or had no successor.

As for the chain of command, this relates to who is in command of the Circle of Magi specifically. The hierarchy of the Chantry itself is its own, separate structure-- as the codex would explain. I'm pretty certain it does not, however, go into this particular instance. Unless you care to point me to which particular codex I'm contradicting?

David Gaider wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You are contradicing this codex entry:

http://dragonage.wik...antry_Hierarchy

It clearly talks about the Clerical Chain of command from top to bottom, and guess what?  There isn't a Knight Commander listed anywhere.  This is of course no suprise since the Chantry restricts the Cleric to women only (at least with any authority) in honor of Andraste and many Templars (including Knight Commanders) are men.

The Templar has (by your own blog entries regarding them) their own parallel chain of command subservient to the Chantry headed by the Knight Vigilant.

Yes, you can retcon your own game, but  based on the game lore, Meridith's action was illegal (and so were a lot of her actions in Acts 2 and 3) as you well know (and Grand Cleric Elthina did nothing about them).

Right.

And where in that codex entry does it say who commands the Circle of Magi? Or who holds the authority to invoke the Rite of Annulment? Or what happens when a Grand Cleric dies? It talks about the heirarchy of the Chantry itself, which the templars are not part of but rather adjacent to.

You are drawing inferences that are not explicitly stated, and deciding they are facts. Then, when I tell you there's more to it than that, you say I'm contradicting something you yourself decided. You're wrong. Please deal with it.

The emphasis in the first post was mine.

Per DG, if the Grand Cleric is dead, and there is no ranking Revered Mother, or the Divine herself present, the KC has the authority to invoke a RoA.
 
So, yes, he did say ranking Revered Mother, not just any old Chanter who happened to be sitting in a tavern somewhere.  Elthinna's mere absense, therefore, is not what gives Meredith the authority to do what she did.  For her to have gotten that authority by taking out Elthinna, she'd also have had to take out every ranking Revered Mother in Kirkwall, perhaps in the entire Free Marches, but certainly in Kirkwall.

So let's stop talking like all Meredith has to do is wait for Elthinna to go to the toilet before taking over, okay?

[Heimdall]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

@Zanallen

Absolutely nothing.

Frankly Polaris, I don't know where you get the idea Meredith would want Elthina dead. Just to call the Right of Annulment? You misjudge her. Fanatical as her paranoia of Mages may be, Meredith has shown no inclination that she desired harm upon the woman she has no doubt looked up to since childhood and her superior in the Chantry. Go over her head and try to get the RoA from the Divine maybe, but killing her is something I don't see her even considering.

If you side with her through Act III, it's clear that Meredith is frustrated with Elthina and thinks that Orsino and "bloodmages" have unreasonable influence with the Grand Cleric.  Given Meredith's paranoia and long standing willingness to 'creatively interpret' the rules, I can easily see a situation where Meredith would have given the quiet OK to have Elthina assassinated.  In fact I think Anders merely beat Meredith to the punch.

-Polaris

  Frustration =/= Deathwish

Meredith has not actually broken Chantry law at any point.  Killing Elethina, her superior and the very woman she owes her position to, would certainly be like nothing else she has done and out of character.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 25 septembre 2011 - 03:32 .

[IanPolaris]

DPSSOC wrote...

Regarding Gregoire if I remember correctly he isn't the Knight Commander his is a Knight Commander (Mages Collective has you deliver Lyrium Potions to one of two KC's) so it's possible that, even if the Fereldan GC is dead or incommunicado, authority falls to another.

The way I've always interpreted it is that the title of "Knight Commander" is both a national and regional title.  That is there is a "Knight Commander of Fereldan" and a "Knight Commander of {Region A} in Fereldan".  Normally the KC of the Tower and the KC of the Capital city (and thus nation) would be one and the same (and this pattern appears to hold in the Free Marches).  It's rare for a Tower to not be in a major city (and captitol city) which makes Fereldan somewhat unique.  Nevertheless, it was my understanding that Gregoire was indeed "Knight Commander of Fereldan" and as such was given the post important post, Custodian of the Circle Tower.  I also think the KC of Denerim is directly underneath him in the national Hiearchy with the various other Knight Commanders also ultimately reporting to Gregoire (including the KC of Redcliff).

Just my take.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I believe the next Grand Cleric would be a Mother, as they are just below the Grand Cleric in terms of authority.

Well yes but is it just the next senior mother, is it one recommended by the previous GC, is it one selected by the Divine based on their record, do the Reverred Mothers in Kirkwall nominate/elect one of their own, do they all have a mud wrestling competition (apologies for the mental image), etc.  Again it's not really relevant because even if it is just the next senior Mother it's still going to take time to figure out who survived and who has seniority durring which time Meredith is in charge.  If Elthina were going away she would no doubt have said, "I'm taking a trip to Val Royeux, Binky's in charge." eliminating Meredith's window of opportunity.

Not necessarily.  Just because Elthina says "Binky's in charge" does not automatically give "Binky" the authority of the Grand Cleric in this regard.  If the Grand Cleric is not available, then per DG, Meredith gets to make the call, and you can bet that's exactly what Meredith will say if questioned.   She has proven perfectly willing to bend Chantry law into a pretzel if it serves her purposes.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lord Aesir wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

@Zanallen

Absolutely nothing.

Frankly Polaris, I don't know where you get the idea Meredith would want Elthina dead. Just to call the Right of Annulment? You misjudge her. Fanatical as her paranoia of Mages may be, Meredith has shown no inclination that she desired harm upon the woman she has no doubt looked up to since childhood and her superior in the Chantry. Go over her head and try to get the RoA from the Divine maybe, but killing her is something I don't see her even considering.

If you side with her through Act III, it's clear that Meredith is frustrated with Elthina and thinks that Orsino and "bloodmages" have unreasonable influence with the Grand Cleric.  Given Meredith's paranoia and long standing willingness to 'creatively interpret' the rules, I can easily see a situation where Meredith would have given the quiet OK to have Elthina assassinated.  In fact I think Anders merely beat Meredith to the punch.

-Polaris

  Frustration =/= Deathwish

Meredith has not actually broken Chantry law at any point.  Killing Elethina, her superior and the very woman she owes her position to, would certainly be like nothing else she has done and out of character.

That is not true.  Meredith either sanctioned or permitted harrowed mages to be tranquilled against the wishes of the first enchanter.  That is clearly in violation of chantry law.  Not only that, but Meredith has taken over civil government and that is certainly in violation of the spirit (if perhaps not quite the letter) of Chantry law that says that Templars can not inherit title (see Irminric in DAO).  Also going over her clerical superior's head is not exactly consistant with meekly following chantry law either....so I would call your characterization false.

-Polaris

[Heimdall]

IanPolaris wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I believe the next Grand Cleric would be a Mother, as they are just below the Grand Cleric in terms of authority.

Well yes but is it just the next senior mother, is it one recommended by the previous GC, is it one selected by the Divine based on their record, do the Reverred Mothers in Kirkwall nominate/elect one of their own, do they all have a mud wrestling competition (apologies for the mental image), etc.  Again it's not really relevant because even if it is just the next senior Mother it's still going to take time to figure out who survived and who has seniority durring which time Meredith is in charge.  If Elthina were going away she would no doubt have said, "I'm taking a trip to Val Royeux, Binky's in charge." eliminating Meredith's window of opportunity.

Not necessarily.  Just because Elthina says "Binky's in charge" does not automatically give "Binky" the authority of the Grand Cleric in this regard.  If the Grand Cleric is not available, then per DG, Meredith gets to make the call, and you can bet that's exactly what Meredith will say if questioned.   She has proven perfectly willing to bend Chantry law into a pretzel if it serves her purposes.

-Polaris

  If Elthina appoints someone as her replacement, even temproarily, that person would assume the responsabilities of the Grand Cleric for as long as necesary.  I can't imagine why it would be otherwise.  That includes the Right of Annulment.  Also...

David Gaider wrote...

certainly in the absence of any ranking Revered Mother or the Divine herself

Well it certainly seems that a ranking Revered Mother is in charge in the absence of a Grand Cleric or the Divine herself.  I'm not sure why you're twisting around this.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

The emphasis in the first post was mine.

Per DG, if the Grand Cleric is dead, and there is no ranking Revered Mother, or the Divine herself present, the KC has the authority to invoke a RoA.

Chantry law gives the Grand Cleric, not a ranking Mother the authority to sanction a Right of Annulment.  DG made it very clear when I pressed him further, that yes, if Elthina were assassinated then Meredith would have a legal window of opportunity to declare a RoA on her own authority.  Certainly Meredith would think so.

So, yes, he did say ranking Revered Mother, not just any old Chanter who happened to be sitting in a tavern somewhere.  Elthinna's mere absense, therefore, is not what gives Meredith the authority to do what she did.  For her to have gotten that authority by taking out Elthinna, she'd also have had to take out every ranking Revered Mother in Kirkwall, perhaps in the entire Free Marches, but certainly in Kirkwall.

So let's stop talking like all Meredith has to do is wait for Elthinna to go to the toilet before taking over, okay?

I won't back down from this.  DG never said that you had to be a "Senior Reverend Mother" to act as Grand Cleric.  He stipulated that in the scene in question there was no senior clerical authorithy present to challenge Meredith's assumption what is normally the Grand Cleric's rights.  What DG said does in fact contradict the chain of Chantry Clerical Command that you were so kind to post the link to the codex entry for, but since DG has said that the KC is the next in line, that is that.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

so.... what's being said is that if Elthina were to flee to Val Royeaux, Meredith would still be obligated to ask her for permission from Elthina for an Annulment? Am I understanding this right?

Bah.... I'm confused. So much back and forth going on...

edit: I forgot a bit of key information in my question.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 septembre 2011 - 04:00 .

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...

 If Elthina appoints someone as her replacement, even temproarily, that person would assume the responsabilities of the Grand Cleric for as long as necesary.  I can't imagine why it would be otherwise.  That includes the Right of Annulment.  Also...
[/quote]

That is a matter of dispute.  I can easily see Meredith taking the law into her own hands and asking questions about it later...or simply killing the stand in and declaring the RoA during the confusion.  Meredith is more than capable and connected enough to do so without any direct ties to her either.  In fact she'd probably contract out criminal apostates to do so...and then "kill the apostates when resisting arrest".  It's a classic move.



[quote]David Gaider wrote...

certainly in the absence of any ranking Revered Mother or the Divine herself[/quote]Well it certainly seems that a ranking Revered Mother is in charge in the absence of a Grand Cleric or the Divine herself.  I'm not sure why you're twisting around this.
[/quote]

That isn't what he said.  He stipulated that there was no senior clerical leadership to challenge Meredith's assumption of the Grand Cleric's authority.  He never said they'd be in charge in this regard.

-Polaris

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Pride would be the most likely reason especially if she left under protest (as she certainly would).  Elthina has a lot of misplaced pride.

-Polaris

I would think pride would make her more likely to choose her own successor. That way, even if she is leaving out of protest, she still determines who is going to lead in her stead. It is still a small measure of control.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

so.... what's being said is that if Elthina were to flee to Val Royeaux, Meredith would still be obligated to ask her for permission for an Annulment? Am I understanding this right?

Bah.... I'm confused. So much back and forth going on...

That is what the pro-chantry people are claiming yes.  It makes no sense.  Per DG, KC Meredith has the legal right to act as she did precisely because it might take too long to get permission from elsewhere.  IE the Grand Cleric doesn't have to be dead...just unavailable.  Of course this is supposed to be used for emergency discretion, but if the law offers an inch, we both know Meredith will take a mile.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Pride would be the most likely reason especially if she left under protest (as she certainly would).  Elthina has a lot of misplaced pride.

-Polaris

I would think pride would make her more likely to choose her own successor. That way, even if she is leaving out of protest, she still determines who is going to lead in her stead. It is still a small measure of control.

i disagree.  Pride would make her keep her title in protest that such a recall wasn't necessary.  There are all sorts of precedents for this in real history.  At least that's my take.

-Polaris

[Heimdall]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

@Zanallen

Absolutely nothing.

Frankly Polaris, I don't know where you get the idea Meredith would want Elthina dead. Just to call the Right of Annulment? You misjudge her. Fanatical as her paranoia of Mages may be, Meredith has shown no inclination that she desired harm upon the woman she has no doubt looked up to since childhood and her superior in the Chantry. Go over her head and try to get the RoA from the Divine maybe, but killing her is something I don't see her even considering.

If you side with her through Act III, it's clear that Meredith is frustrated with Elthina and thinks that Orsino and "bloodmages" have unreasonable influence with the Grand Cleric.  Given Meredith's paranoia and long standing willingness to 'creatively interpret' the rules, I can easily see a situation where Meredith would have given the quiet OK to have Elthina assassinated.  In fact I think Anders merely beat Meredith to the punch.

-Polaris

  Frustration =/= Deathwish

Meredith has not actually broken Chantry law at any point.  Killing Elethina, her superior and the very woman she owes her position to, would certainly be like nothing else she has done and out of character.

That is not true.  Meredith either sanctioned or permitted harrowed mages to be tranquilled against the wishes of the first enchanter.  That is clearly in violation of chantry law.  Not only that, but Meredith has taken over civil government and that is certainly in violation of the spirit (if perhaps not quite the letter) of Chantry law that says that Templars can not inherit title (see Irminric in DAO).  Also going over her clerical superior's head is not exactly consistant with meekly following chantry law either....so I would call your characterization false.

-Polaris

 

When did she sanction these things again?  I don't recall

There is a difference between bending and breaking.  There's a huge difference between assuming the role of unofficial ruler and inheriting a title, she doesn't even have to bend the law here because the chantry does not forbid it, illegal as it may be in civil law.  Going over Elthina's head is a far cry from murdering the woman.  Not to mention going over Elthina's head wouldn't be necesary if Meredith was willing to kill her.  So that actually helps my point.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

The emphasis in the first post was mine.

Per DG, if the Grand Cleric is dead, and there is no ranking Revered Mother, or the Divine herself present, the KC has the authority to invoke a RoA.

Chantry law gives the Grand Cleric, not a ranking Mother the authority to sanction a Right of Annulment.  DG made it very clear when I pressed him further, that yes, if Elthina were assassinated then Meredith would have a legal window of opportunity to declare a RoA on her own authority.  Certainly Meredith would think so.

So, yes, he did say ranking Revered Mother, not just any old Chanter who happened to be sitting in a tavern somewhere.  Elthinna's mere absense, therefore, is not what gives Meredith the authority to do what she did.  For her to have gotten that authority by taking out Elthinna, she'd also have had to take out every ranking Revered Mother in Kirkwall, perhaps in the entire Free Marches, but certainly in Kirkwall.

So let's stop talking like all Meredith has to do is wait for Elthinna to go to the toilet before taking over, okay?

I won't back down from this.  DG never said that you had to be a "Senior Reverend Mother" to act as Grand Cleric.  He stipulated that in the scene in question there was no senior clerical authorithy present to challenge Meredith's assumption what is normally the Grand Cleric's rights.  What DG said does in fact contradict the chain of Chantry Clerical Command that you were so kind to post the link to the codex entry for, but since DG has said that the KC is the next in line, that is that.

-Polaris

Wow, you even twist things when they're right there in black and white for you and everyone else to read.

I quoted DG.  He said "ranking Revered Mother".  Go read it.  You want to replace that with "senior revered mother" so you can say he never said that?  Go ahead. 

He stated that, with the death of the Grand Cleric, and in the absence of any ranking Revered Mother, the Knight Commander was in charge of the Kirkwall Chantry.

So sorry, but clearly, he said that it's not JUST Elthinna's absence, but her death that is necessary.  He said it also requires the absence of a Ranking Revered Mother for the Knight Commander to have that authority.

In other words, if the Grand Cleric is dead, a Ranking Revered Mother is in charge.  If the Grand Cleric is dead, and there is no Ranking Revered Mother, then the Knight Commander is in charge.

This does not mean that if Elthinna goes to visit the countryside, takes a long shower, or goes to Val Royeaux, that Meredith is in charge.  In none of those scenarios is she DEAD.  In none of those scenarios is there a lack of a Ranking Revered Mother.

You don't have to back down.  You're wrong.  Yell, whine and complain as loudly as you like, twist words all you want.  The words are there for everyone and anyone to read. 

[Heimdall]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

so.... what's being said is that if Elthina were to flee to Val Royeaux, Meredith would still be obligated to ask her for permission for an Annulment? Am I understanding this right?

Bah.... I'm confused. So much back and forth going on...

That is what the pro-chantry people are claiming yes.  It makes no sense.  Per DG, KC Meredith has the legal right to act as she did precisely because it might take too long to get permission from elsewhere.  IE the Grand Cleric doesn't have to be dead...just unavailable.  Of course this is supposed to be used for emergency discretion, but if the law offers an inch, we both know Meredith will take a mile.

-Polaris

  It makes perfect sense.  You just don't want it to.  Why would the KC have trouble getting permission from elsewhere when a Revered Mother is there in the GC absence, literally right nearby for her to ask.  It is in the absence of this authority entirely, like when the Chantry blew up, that allows Meredith to take action.

I'm not pro-chantry btw, nor am I pro-mage

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 25 septembre 2011 - 04:02 .

[TEWR]

When did she sanction these things again? I don't recall

There is a difference between bending and breaking. There's a huge difference between assuming the role of unofficial ruler and inheriting a title, she doesn't even have to bend the law here because the chantry does not forbid it, illegal as it may be in civil law. Going over Elthina's head is a far cry from murdering the woman. Not to mention going over Elthina's head wouldn't be necesary if Meredith was willing to kill her. So that actually helps my point.

Just because Meredith hasn't yet killed Elthina doesn't mean she wouldn't. The idol gradually makes a person go more insane the longer they're in possession of it. The longer she has that sword (which you can see in the opening of Act 3), the worse she'll get.

[TEWR]

Lord Aesir wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

so.... what's being said is that if Elthina were to flee to Val Royeaux, Meredith would still be obligated to ask her for permission for an Annulment? Am I understanding this right?

Bah.... I'm confused. So much back and forth going on...

That is what the pro-chantry people are claiming yes.  It makes no sense.  Per DG, KC Meredith has the legal right to act as she did precisely because it might take too long to get permission from elsewhere.  IE the Grand Cleric doesn't have to be dead...just unavailable.  Of course this is supposed to be used for emergency discretion, but if the law offers an inch, we both know Meredith will take a mile.

-Polaris

  It makes perfect sense.  You just don't want it to.  Why would the KC have trouble getting permission from elsewhere when a Revered Mother is there in the GC absence, literally right nearby for her to ask.  It is in the absence of this authority entirely, like when the Chantry blew up, that allows Meredith to take action.

I'm not pro-chantry btw, nor am I pro-mage

so you're pro-neutrality?

I have no strong feelings one way or the other.

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

When did she sanction these things again? I don't recall

There is a difference between bending and breaking. There's a huge difference between assuming the role of unofficial ruler and inheriting a title, she doesn't even have to bend the law here because the chantry does not forbid it, illegal as it may be in civil law. Going over Elthina's head is a far cry from murdering the woman. Not to mention going over Elthina's head wouldn't be necesary if Meredith was willing to kill her. So that actually helps my point.

Just because Meredith hasn't yet killed Elthina doesn't mean she wouldn't. The idol gradually makes a person go more insane the longer they're in possession of it. The longer she has that sword (which you can see in the opening of Act 3), the worse she'll get.

  Just because you think it doesn't mean she will.  She hasn't presented any malicious intentions toward Elthina, insane as the sword makes her.  She only becomes convinced any member of the Chantry is truly against her once she's using it to the point her eyes were glowing, and then she still seems quite shocked by it.

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

so.... what's being said is that if Elthina were to flee to Val Royeaux, Meredith would still be obligated to ask her for permission for an Annulment? Am I understanding this right?

Bah.... I'm confused. So much back and forth going on...

That is what the pro-chantry people are claiming yes.  It makes no sense.  Per DG, KC Meredith has the legal right to act as she did precisely because it might take too long to get permission from elsewhere.  IE the Grand Cleric doesn't have to be dead...just unavailable.  Of course this is supposed to be used for emergency discretion, but if the law offers an inch, we both know Meredith will take a mile.

-Polaris

  It makes perfect sense.  You just don't want it to.  Why would the KC have trouble getting permission from elsewhere when a Revered Mother is there in the GC absence, literally right nearby for her to ask.  It is in the absence of this authority entirely, like when the Chantry blew up, that allows Meredith to take action.

I'm not pro-chantry btw, nor am I pro-mage

so you're pro-neutrality?

I have no strong feelings one way or the other. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

I tend to speak for whater side I feel is getting too much blame, Templar or Mage, since I think neither is innocent and both have good points.

Hating Templars is far more popular, however <_<

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 25 septembre 2011 - 04:13 .

[Zanallen]

Lord Aesir wrote...

It makes perfect sense.  You just don't want it to.  Why would the KC have trouble getting permission from elsewhere when a Revered Mother is there in the GC absence, literally right nearby for her to ask.  It is in the absence of this authority entirely, like when the Chantry blew up, that allows Meredith to take action.

I'm not pro-chantry btw, nor am I pro-mage

This.

If the Grand Cleric just up and left, a Revered Mother would take up the GC's duties and responsibilities. Most likely, said RM would be someone chosen ahead of time in case of such an event. You know, that successor that people have been talking about.

[IanPolaris]

Lord Aesir wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

so.... what's being said is that if Elthina were to flee to Val Royeaux, Meredith would still be obligated to ask her for permission for an Annulment? Am I understanding this right?

Bah.... I'm confused. So much back and forth going on...

That is what the pro-chantry people are claiming yes.  It makes no sense.  Per DG, KC Meredith has the legal right to act as she did precisely because it might take too long to get permission from elsewhere.  IE the Grand Cleric doesn't have to be dead...just unavailable.  Of course this is supposed to be used for emergency discretion, but if the law offers an inch, we both know Meredith will take a mile.

-Polaris

  It makes perfect sense.  You just don't want it to.  Why would the KC have trouble getting permission from elsewhere when a Revered Mother is there in the GC absence, literally right nearby for her to ask.  It is in the absence of this authority entirely, like when the Chantry blew up, that allows Meredith to take action.

I'm not pro-chantry btw, nor am I pro-mage

That's a nice theory.  Too bad it doesn't hold water.  The fact is that Chanty authority is not absent even after Ander's act of terrorism.  There is still a senor sister or even local mother (in Starkhaven if nothing else) that is next in line.  That was my entire point to DG.  KC Meredith is NOT in the Chantry's chain of command.  DG told me using WoG that what she did was legal anyway which means it's the physical presence of the Grand Cleric that matters.

Yes DG used the words "Senior Reverend Mother" but not in the way you and others were claiming.  He was simply pointing out as a (correct) fact of the matter than in this case there was no senior Mother there on the spot to countermand Meredith.  He does admit that Meredith could assassinate the Grand Cleric and still be golden legally which is why I didn't think it was legal in the first place.  Don't blame me for someone else's bad writing in this regard.  The way the world is structured if Elthina is in-comminicado (or dead) then KC Meredith gets to call a RoA on her own authority no matter who else is there (except perhaps the Divine herself).  Certain Meredith sees it this way.

The only way for this not to be true is for the Divine (or Elthina) to officially appoint someone the new Grand Cleric before leaving.

Yes it makes no sense but a lot of stuff in DA2 makes no sense.  Apparently the same person that requests the RoA can authorize it if the Grand Cleric is unavailable pretty much no matter what.  No sane organization would divvy up power this way, but there it is....

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

It makes perfect sense.  You just don't want it to.  Why would the KC have trouble getting permission from elsewhere when a Revered Mother is there in the GC absence, literally right nearby for her to ask.  It is in the absence of this authority entirely, like when the Chantry blew up, that allows Meredith to take action.

I'm not pro-chantry btw, nor am I pro-mage

This.

If the Grand Cleric just up and left, a Revered Mother would take up the GC's duties and responsibilities. Most likely, said RM would be someone chosen ahead of time in case of such an event. You know, that successor that people have been talking about.

Still doesn't give her veto power over the Right of Annulment.  You actually (apparently) have to BE the Grand Cleric to have that.  Otherwise it falls to Meredith.  At least that's what Meredith would certainly argue after the fact and I don't think too many in the Chantry would disagree (and certainly the templars would back Meredith).

-Polaris