585 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Still doesn't give her veto power over the Right of Annulment.  You actually (apparently) have to BE the Grand Cleric to have that.  Otherwise it falls to Meredith.  At least that's what Meredith would certainly argue after the fact and I don't think too many in the Chantry would disagree (and certainly the templars would back Meredith).

-Polaris

That is exactly what it gives her. For all intents and purposes, she would be acting Grand Cleric and have all the powers and responsibilities inherent to the title. Meredith cannot call for a RoA if Elthina has just left the city. The Grand Cleric and her successors would have to be dead.

[Heimdall]

The leading member of the Chantry, meaning the Grand Cleric or a ranking Revered Mother in her absence, has the power to order a Right of Annulment, not a veto. That is why Gregoire had to request it. That is a fairly large distiction. Unless Meredith can get the Grand Cleric's successor to actually command a Right of Annulment, nothing happens. The Templars are subordinate to the local leader of the chantry and there would be no question as to who was rightfully in charge.

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...
That's a nice theory.  Too bad it doesn't hold water.  The fact is that Chanty authority is not absent even after Ander's act of terrorism.  There is still a senor sister or even local mother (in Starkhaven if nothing else) that is next in line.  That was my entire point to DG.  KC Meredith is NOT in the Chantry's chain of command.  DG told me using WoG that what she did was legal anyway which means it's the physical presence of the Grand Cleric that matters.

Except the Chantry authority is absent in Kirkwall. Kirkwall is a city-state with its own Grand Cleric and that is the command structure. Greagoire doesn't send to Orlais or Ostwick  for permission to invoke an RoA in Ferelden, he sends to Denerim because that's where his Grand Cleric is. The Chantry in Starkhaven has no legal authority over the Circle in Kirkwall.

Yes DG used the words "Senior Reverend Mother" but not in the way you and others were claiming.  He was simply pointing out as a (correct) fact of the matter than in this case there was no senior Mother there on the spot to countermand Meredith.  He does admit that Meredith could assassinate the Grand Cleric and still be golden legally which is why I didn't think it was legal in the first place.  Don't blame me for someone else's bad writing in this regard.  The way the world is structured if Elthina is in-comminicado (or dead) then KC Meredith gets to call a RoA on her own authority no matter who else is there (except perhaps the Divine herself).  Certain Meredith sees it this way.

DG used the words "Senior Revered Mother" as an indicator of where the authority falls and nothing else. You can try to twist it to mean something else, but you'd still be wrong. He said "ranking Revered Mother." There isn't one in Kirkwall. 

Yes it makes no sense but a lot of stuff in DA2 makes no sense.  Apparently the same person that requests the RoA can authorize it if the Grand Cleric is unavailable pretty much no matter what.  No sane organization would divvy up power this way, but there it is....

No, that isn't the case. "Unavailable" does not mean "dead." That was the context and content of DG's quote. The person who has the authority to invoke an RoA is dead, therefore that authority falls to the next person in the chain of command. That next person is Meredith. 

[Sepewrath]

Meredith could do whatever she wanted, first off the lyrium made her crazy and crazy people generally don't follow the rules. Second, she had way more power than a knight commander is suppose to have. The Chantry would respond to her getting out of line of course, but it would have been too late by then.

But I don't think they are required to get permission, I believe Gregoire was sending to Denerim, more for reinforcements than permission. Doesn't he have a line where he says they would have already razed the tower to the ground, if they had the manpower or something like that.

[IanPolaris]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The leading member of the Chantry, meaning the Grand Cleric or a ranking Revered Mother in her absence, has the power to order a Right of Annulment, not a veto. That is why Gregoire had to request it. That is a fairly large distiction. Unless Meredith can get the Grand Cleric's successor to actually command a Right of Annulment, nothing happens. The Templars are subordinate to the local leader of the chantry and there would be no question as to who was rightfully in charge.

The codex entry does not say that.  It says only that the "Grand Cleric" (and only the Grand Cleric) has the right to authorize a Right of Annulment.  It is only via WoG that we know that Meredith is next down in the chain of command, and thus if Ethina leaves without another Grand Cleric, Meredith will use this as her justification.  If she sees any legal daylight to order a RoA (esp by Act III) she will use it.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Still doesn't give her veto power over the Right of Annulment.  You actually (apparently) have to BE the Grand Cleric to have that.  Otherwise it falls to Meredith.  At least that's what Meredith would certainly argue after the fact and I don't think too many in the Chantry would disagree (and certainly the templars would back Meredith).

-Polaris

That is exactly what it gives her. For all intents and purposes, she would be acting Grand Cleric and have all the powers and responsibilities inherent to the title. Meredith cannot call for a RoA if Elthina has just left the city. The Grand Cleric and her successors would have to be dead.

Wrong.  In DA2, the clerical "chain of command" sucessor was still in the Free Marches and still alive.  After all not all the sisters were in the Chantry, and surely the Senior Mother of Starkhaven would be next in line anyway and that's only a day or two away.  However, we are told that if the Grand Cleric is "unavailable" then it falls to Meredith.  Yes I think it makes no sense either, but this is what we were told.

-Polaris

[Monica21]

Sepewrath wrote...
Meredith could do whatever she wanted, first off the lyrium made her crazy and crazy people generally don't follow the rules. Second, she had way more power than a knight commander is suppose to have. The Chantry would respond to her getting out of line of course, but it would have been too late by then.

If you mean within the Chantry authority, she had the exact amount of power a Knight-Commander is supposed to have. I do agree that she had more authority in the city of Kirkwall than she should have.

But I don't think they are required to get permission, I believe Gregoire was sending to Denerim, more for reinforcements than permission. Doesn't he have a line where he says they would have already razed the tower to the ground, if they had the manpower or something like that.

His specific words are "I have sent word to Denerim, calling for reinforcements and the Right of Annulment."

Modifié par Monica21, 25 septembre 2011 - 05:43 .

[IanPolaris]

Sepewrath wrote...

Meredith could do whatever she wanted, first off the lyrium made her crazy and crazy people generally don't follow the rules. Second, she had way more power than a knight commander is suppose to have. The Chantry would respond to her getting out of line of course, but it would have been too late by then.

But I don't think they are required to get permission, I believe Gregoire was sending to Denerim, more for reinforcements than permission. Doesn't he have a line where he says they would have already razed the tower to the ground, if they had the manpower or something like that.

Indeed, Gregoire has no qualms about deputizing the Warden and his party as "Acting Templars" with orders to cleanse the tower if necessary.  It might not technically be a "Right of Annulment" but it amounts to the same thing.  The difference between Gregoire and Meredith is that Gregoire is actually trying to follow the rules both by letter and intent and Meredith doesn't care.  In fact if Gregoire called a Right of Annulment in the Fereldan situation on his own authority I don't think anyone would have blamed him.  Even Wynne makes it clear (when you talk with her) that from Gregoire's perspective, he would be perfectly justified in doing this.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Monica21 wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...
Meredith could do whatever she wanted, first off the lyrium made her crazy and crazy people generally don't follow the rules. Second, she had way more power than a knight commander is suppose to have. The Chantry would respond to her getting out of line of course, but it would have been too late by then.

If you mean within the Chantry authority, she had the exact amount of power a Knight-Commander is supposed to have. I do agree that she had more authority in the city of Kirkwall than she should have.

But I don't think they are required to get permission, I believe Gregoire was sending to Denerim, more for reinforcements than permission. Doesn't he have a line where he says they would have already razed the tower to the ground, if they had the manpower or something like that.

His specific words are "I have sent word to Denerim, calling for reinforcements and the Right of Annulment."

He also makes it clear that if he could cleanse the tower on his own (if he had the manpower) he would.  He has no issues with giving the Warden acting authorization to effectively do the Right of Annulement on his own authority.  I also think in his case it's actually justifiable.

-Polaris

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wrong.  In DA2, the clerical "chain of command" sucessor was still in the Free Marches and still alive.  After all not all the sisters were in the Chantry, and surely the Senior Mother of Starkhaven would be next in line anyway and that's only a day or two away.  However, we are told that if the Grand Cleric is "unavailable" then it falls to Meredith.  Yes I think it makes no sense either, but this is what we were told.

-Polaris

No. The Chantry in Kirkwall is not in any way beholden to Starkhaven. Neither is the Kirkwall Circle of Magi. Why would you think that?

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...
Meredith could do whatever she wanted, first off the lyrium made her crazy and crazy people generally don't follow the rules. Second, she had way more power than a knight commander is suppose to have. The Chantry would respond to her getting out of line of course, but it would have been too late by then.

If you mean within the Chantry authority, she had the exact amount of power a Knight-Commander is supposed to have. I do agree that she had more authority in the city of Kirkwall than she should have.

But I don't think they are required to get permission, I believe Gregoire was sending to Denerim, more for reinforcements than permission. Doesn't he have a line where he says they would have already razed the tower to the ground, if they had the manpower or something like that.

His specific words are "I have sent word to Denerim, calling for reinforcements and the Right of Annulment."

He also makes it clear that if he could cleanse the tower on his own (if he had the manpower) he would.  He has no issues with giving the Warden acting authorization to effectively do the Right of Annulement on his own authority.  I also think in his case it's actually justifiable.

-Polaris

And he also makes it clear that he was waiting for the Right to be approved from Denerim. No, he couldn't clear out the Circle by himself, but that's why the gates are barred.

And what is is that you're arguing at this point? Is it that it wasn't legal (even though Gaider said it was) or that the chain of command wasn't followed (even though Gaider said it was) or that it wasn't in a codex entry in the game?

[Sepewrath]

Monica21 wrote...
If you mean within the Chantry authority, she had the exact amount of power a Knight-Commander is supposed to have. I do agree that she had more authority in the city of Kirkwall than she should have.

But I don't think they are required to get permission, I believe Gregoire was sending to Denerim, more for reinforcements than permission. Doesn't he have a line where he says they would have already razed the tower to the ground, if they had the manpower or something like that.

His specific words are "I have sent word to Denerim, calling for reinforcements and the Right of Annulment."

Yeah that's what I'm talking about, she was powerful in Kirkwall, it wouldn't be so easy to take her down, like you would a normal knight commander. And like Polaris said, I'm pretty sure he has a line where he would have done it himself if he could, it was going to happen with or without permission.

Though  I don't know if I would call his annulment justified either, moreso than Meredith's insanity of course. But he was on board for killing everyone if one man was dead. Think about it, lets say Uldred killed him with the surprise attack, but a bunch of other people survived, you would kill them all because one man died? I cant get behind that one either.

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Wrong.  In DA2, the clerical "chain of command" sucessor was still in the Free Marches and still alive.  After all not all the sisters were in the Chantry, and surely the Senior Mother of Starkhaven would be next in line anyway and that's only a day or two away.  However, we are told that if the Grand Cleric is "unavailable" then it falls to Meredith.  Yes I think it makes no sense either, but this is what we were told.

-Polaris

No. The Chantry in Kirkwall is not in any way beholden to Starkhaven. Neither is the Kirkwall Circle of Magi. Why would you think that?

Grand Cleric Elthina is Grand Cleric of the Free Marches.  Starkhaven is part of the Free Marches. It's pretty clear that individual Chantry organizations are organized along national lines which means the Senior Cleric of Starkhaven probably would be the next in line.

The point is that Ander's attack did NOT wipe out the Chantry in Kirkwall let alone in the Free Marches and that means that someone was there that was 'de facto' Grand Cleric, knowingly or not, just as a humble Ensign handling damage control on a ship might suddenly become "Captain" if the Bridge is hit.  Same, same.

However, DG has told us that if the Grand Cleric isn't there, then KC Meredith has the legal authority.  Certainly Meredith would think so and go with that (and apologize later if need be).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Monica21 wrote...

And he also makes it clear that he was waiting for the Right to be approved from Denerim. No, he couldn't clear out the Circle by himself, but that's why the gates are barred.

Actually if you talk with him, he makes it clear that the reason the gates are barred and he isn't doing anything is because he lacks men, not the legal authority.  He has no trouble authorizing a Grey Warden and companions to perform the Rite with or without Grand Cleric approval which tells you everything you need to know about this.  Why?  Because Gregoire is out of contact with his nominal superior and fears (probably correctly) that the Civil War + Blight have made her inaccessable in which case (and he makes this very clear many times), it's up to him to make the command decisions for all the Templars.

The difference between Gregoire and Meredith is that Gregoire isn't a mage-hating fruitloop and Meredith frankly is, and the rules mean something to Gregoire while Meredith clearly thinks they are inconveniences to be worked around.

And what is is that you're arguing at this point? Is it that it wasn't legal (even though Gaider said it was) or that the chain of command wasn't followed (even though Gaider said it was) or that it wasn't in a codex entry in the game?

I am arguing for consistancy.  Given that DG expressly said what Meredith did was legal, then it logically follows that if Ethina either dissapears and/or leaves Kirkwall, then Meredith is able to call (and will call) the RoA on her own authority.  If you argue this point, then you are in effect saying that what Meredith did was not legal.  You don't get it both ways.

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

IanPolaris wrote...

I am arguing for consistancy.  Given that DG expressly said what Meredith did was legal, then it logically follows that if Ethina either dissapears and/or leaves Kirkwall, then Meredith is able to call (and will call) the RoA on her own authority.  If you argue this point, then you are in effect saying that what Meredith did was not legal.  You don't get it both ways.

-Polaris

There's nothing inconsistent.

Grand Cleric alive = Meredith can't authorise Annullment
Ranking Reverend Mother present in Kirkwall = Meredith can't authorise Annullment
Grand Cleric dead and no Ranking Reverend Mother in Kirkwall = Meredith can authorise Annullment

[Heimdall]

@Wulfram

You have the right of it, perhaps Polaris would be willing to tell us what is so inconsistent about this setup. For that matter, find us where Elthina is described as the Grand Cleric of the entire Free Marches rather than just Kirkwall.

[Heimdall]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The leading member of the Chantry, meaning the Grand Cleric or a ranking Revered Mother in her absence, has the power to order a Right of Annulment, not a veto. That is why Gregoire had to request it. That is a fairly large distiction. Unless Meredith can get the Grand Cleric's successor to actually command a Right of Annulment, nothing happens. The Templars are subordinate to the local leader of the chantry and there would be no question as to who was rightfully in charge.

The codex entry does not say that.  It says only that the "Grand Cleric" (and only the Grand Cleric) has the right to authorize a Right of Annulment.  It is only via WoG that we know that Meredith is next down in the chain of command, and thus if Ethina leaves without another Grand Cleric, Meredith will use this as her justification.  If she sees any legal daylight to order a RoA (esp by Act III) she will use it.

-Polaris

And yet he also said in the absence of a ranking revered mother, Meredith is in charge.  We have WoG for this.  Only then is Meredith next in the chain of command.  There's no question to this, it's clear as day in DG's comments.  If Elthina leaves without another Grand Cleric, Meredith can't simply take charge.

[dsl08002]

Considering That Leliana was often my romance option in DAO then no i didn´t want to kill her

[LobselVith8]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Has anyone stopped to think perhaps Leliana was trailing the Resolutionists, and her goal in Kirkwall was to access their influence in the city? Since she mentions them specifically, and it's the group you encounter in the Chantry, they are her main focus in her investigation? To her and the Divine the other factors everyone seems to argue about (using 20/20 hindsight) are secondary and trivial in the grand scheme of Thedas? That perhaps the reason "all eyes are on Kirkwall" could be that the strongest influence of the Resolutionists exists in the city?

Leliana admits that she doesn't actually know if the Resolutionists are behind the unrest, she specifically states they may be.

RagingCyclone wrote...

And Lobelsvith8...the way you keep arguing...and myself being a Leliana fan...I could easily become a mage hunter and enjoy it. Until this thread I didn't care one way or the other...but some of the logic you use...mages don't look so good to me right now...just saying.

I have an opinion on the issue. You have a different one.
My issue focuses on whether Hawke should remove Leliana in "Faith" because she seems to be saying she'll advocate an Exalted March against Kirkwall to the Divine, which would lead to the deaths of many people, possibly the Champion of Kirkwall as well, whether he's pro-templar or pro-mage.

People are welcome to have a different opinion than my own on the issue, I certainly don't claim that mine is the only one that should be adhered to. I'm simply addressing the scene in "Faith" as I see it, and advocating a position that I think I would have had my Hawke take if I believed a person was going to recommend to the Divine that an Exalted March should be called on Kirkwall.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...
Meredith could do whatever she wanted, first off the lyrium made her crazy and crazy people generally don't follow the rules. Second, she had way more power than a knight commander is suppose to have. The Chantry would respond to her getting out of line of course, but it would have been too late by then.

If you mean within the Chantry authority, she had the exact amount of power a Knight-Commander is supposed to have. I do agree that she had more authority in the city of Kirkwall than she should have.

But I don't think they are required to get permission, I believe Gregoire was sending to Denerim, more for reinforcements than permission. Doesn't he have a line where he says they would have already razed the tower to the ground, if they had the manpower or something like that.

His specific words are "I have sent word to Denerim, calling for reinforcements and the Right of Annulment."

He also makes it clear that if he could cleanse the tower on his own (if he had the manpower) he would.  He has no issues with giving the Warden acting authorization to effectively do the Right of Annulement on his own authority.  I also think in his case it's actually justifiable.

-Polaris

And he also makes it clear that he was waiting for the Right to be approved from Denerim. No, he couldn't clear out the Circle by himself, but that's why the gates are barred.

And what is is that you're arguing at this point? Is it that it wasn't legal (even though Gaider said it was) or that the chain of command wasn't followed (even though Gaider said it was) or that it wasn't in a codex entry in the game?

Because it's the only way his crazy theory makes sense.

He wants Mredith to be over-reaching.  He needs her to be over-reacting.  He needs her action to be one of sheer hatred and insanity, not a legal and logical reaction to the situation.

Polaris keeps talking about Elthinna being "away", as if that's what gives Meredith the authority.  In the next breath, he argues that some Revered Mother in Starkhaven is in charge.  Those are incompatible, and neither is what DG said.

DG was responding spcifically to questions about the situation in Kirkwall.  As I've posted the quotes, go read them (oddly, he was arguing with Polaris at the time).  He clearly says that, with Elthinna dead - not away on a trip - and with no ranking Revered Mother - not some Chanter or Acolyte of Lay Sister - the authority falls to Meredith.

That's the situation.  Polaris now wants to concoct some scenario in his head in which the Grand Cleric somewhere else fits into that chain of command because of proximity.  There is no support for that.  None.  At all.

It's really hard to argue with someone who makes up their own rules, states them as fact, contorts the actual rules, and twists clear statements from the person in charge of the rules into saying something they never said.

[Heimdall]

TJPags wrote...
He wants Mredith to be over-reaching.  He needs her to be over-reacting.  He needs her action to be one of sheer hatred and insanity, not a legal and logical reaction to the situation.

  To be fair, Meredith was insane and overreacting when she called the Right of Annulment.  However, thats a judgement call by us, it was perfectly legal because her superiors just got exploded.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 25 septembre 2011 - 02:32 .

[TJPags]

Lord Aesir wrote...

TJPags wrote...
He wants Mredith to be over-reaching.  He needs her to be over-reacting.  He needs her action to be one of sheer hatred and insanity, not a legal and logical reaction to the situation.

  To be fair, Meredith was insane and overreacting when she called the Right of Annulment.  However, thats a judgement call by us, it was perfectly legal because her superiors just got exploded.

And that's my point, really, although I'll quibble with your choice of language.

It's a judgment call about whether it's the right thing to do, yes.  Meredith was insane, yes.  It's not in any way illegal, nor is it clearly the wrong thing, and thus I don't see where she was overreacting.  Her opinion that people will want blood is quite a logical one, actually.  Now that may not be a good reason to do what she did - on it's own, I agree it's not - but the idea that the populace, raised to believe what the Chantry preaches, and finding out that a mage, who had ties to the mage underground, is an apostate who has run away from the Circle 7 times, run away from the Grey Wardens as well, and is actually an abomination, and who has ties to mages in the Circle, will NOT want mage blood in retribution is the illogical one, IMO.

Me personally, I was sick of mages by the time I got to that point in the game.  I thought the number of crazy mages I ran into was absurd, thought Anders and his underground were out  of control, thought the mages in the Circle were out of control, especially after seeing how Grace had conned Thrask into kidnapping Bethany to lure me in.

However, my sense of justice kicked in a bit after Anders did his deed, and yes, after thinking for a few minutes, I thought "the mages may be out of control, but they didn't do this.  It's wrong to kill them for it, without punishing Anders".  So I sided with the mages.

I've since decided - after running through the Gallows, fighting more mages and demons then Templars - that I was wrong.  The Circle needed to be wiped out, and if this was the only way I was going to be allowed to make that happen, I'll jump on it.

I have no problem with anyone who decides the way I actually did.  My only problem is, and will always be, with people who want to argue it was clearly wrong, it was unsupportable, it was illegal, or it was simply a product of Meredith's mindless hate.  Especially when they distort the truth to support their arguments.

[Heimdall]

TJPags wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

TJPags wrote...
He wants Mredith to be over-reaching.  He needs her to be over-reacting.  He needs her action to be one of sheer hatred and insanity, not a legal and logical reaction to the situation.

  To be fair, Meredith was insane and overreacting when she called the Right of Annulment.  However, thats a judgement call by us, it was perfectly legal because her superiors just got exploded.

And that's my point, really, although I'll quibble with your choice of language.

It's a judgment call about whether it's the right thing to do, yes.  Meredith was insane, yes.  It's not in any way illegal, nor is it clearly the wrong thing, and thus I don't see where she was overreacting.  Her opinion that people will want blood is quite a logical one, actually.  Now that may not be a good reason to do what she did - on it's own, I agree it's not - but the idea that the populace, raised to believe what the Chantry preaches, and finding out that a mage, who had ties to the mage underground, is an apostate who has run away from the Circle 7 times, run away from the Grey Wardens as well, and is actually an abomination, and who has ties to mages in the Circle, will NOT want mage blood in retribution is the illogical one, IMO.

Me personally, I was sick of mages by the time I got to that point in the game.  I thought the number of crazy mages I ran into was absurd, thought Anders and his underground were out  of control, thought the mages in the Circle were out of control, especially after seeing how Grace had conned Thrask into kidnapping Bethany to lure me in.

However, my sense of justice kicked in a bit after Anders did his deed, and yes, after thinking for a few minutes, I thought "the mages may be out of control, but they didn't do this.  It's wrong to kill them for it, without punishing Anders".  So I sided with the mages.

I've since decided - after running through the Gallows, fighting more mages and demons then Templars - that I was wrong.  The Circle needed to be wiped out, and if this was the only way I was going to be allowed to make that happen, I'll jump on it.

I have no problem with anyone who decides the way I actually did.  My only problem is, and will always be, with people who want to argue it was clearly wrong, it was unsupportable, it was illegal, or it was simply a product of Meredith's mindless hate.  Especially when they distort the truth to support their arguments.

  A fair opinion.  I too was getting a bit tired of Mages by the end, but I also thought Meredith wasn't really helping matters.  I thought it was pretty logical that the public would call for Mage blood.  Although, as I think I mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread, I think a long drawn out very public execution of Anders would have suited that purpose.  Hence why I thought she was overreacting.

I still tend to think standing with the Mages was the right choice, though mostly because my Hawkes tend to want to preserve what innocent lives are in the Circle (Fewer than I thought as it turned out!) and Bethany.  I would also say that all those demons are partly the result of the Mage's sheer terror interacting with Kirkwall's thin veil, so the circle isn't totally to blame.  Actually the veil is one of the reasons I don't put that much blame on the Templars, I think it made their job a doomed endeavor from the start.  Frankly, whoever decided to keep a circle in Kirkwall needs to be hung.

[Monica21]

Lord Aesir wrote...

@Wulfram

You have the right of it, perhaps Polaris would be willing to tell us what is so inconsistent about this setup. For that matter, find us where Elthina is described as the Grand Cleric of the entire Free Marches rather than just Kirkwall.

It's in her codex entry, although that still doesn't mean that a Starkhaven Revered Mother can approve or veto a Kirkwall RoA. "Revered Mother Elthina assumed the mantle of Grand Cleric almost twenty years ago; she is responsible for the spiritual well-being of the southern Free Marches (everything south of Starkhaven and the Minanter River)."

If this situation were reversed and Starkhaven needed to call an RoA, they would have to get approval from Elthina. If Elthina is dead, I would imagine that Petrice cannot approve one in the absence of a Grand Cleric.

Modifié par Monica21, 25 septembre 2011 - 03:09 .

[Xilizhra]

I have no problem with anyone who decides the way I actually did. My only problem is, and will always be, with people who want to argue it was clearly wrong, it was unsupportable, it was illegal, or it was simply a product of Meredith's mindless hate. Especially when they distort the truth to support their arguments.

Oh, it was clearly wrong, unsupportable, has no worth whatsoever, and ultimately didn't even accomplish anything because the revolution began anyway. You just got to murder a few more people.