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[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
Because it's the only way his crazy theory makes sense.

He wants Meredith to be over-reaching.  He needs her to be over-reacting.  He needs her action to be one of sheer hatred and insanity, not a legal and logical reaction to the situation.

Polaris keeps talking about Elthina being "away", as if that's what gives Meredith the authority.  In the next breath, he argues that some Revered Mother in Starkhaven is in charge.  Those are incompatible, and neither is what DG said.

DG was responding spcifically to questions about the situation in Kirkwall.  As I've posted the quotes, go read them (oddly, he was arguing with Polaris at the time).  He clearly says that, with Elthinna dead - not away on a trip - and with no ranking Revered Mother - not some Chanter or Acolyte of Lay Sister - the authority falls to Meredith.

That's the situation.  Polaris now wants to concoct some scenario in his head in which the Grand Cleric somewhere else fits into that chain of command because of proximity.  There is no support for that.  None.  At all.

It's really hard to argue with someone who makes up their own rules, states them as fact, contorts the actual rules, and twists clear statements from the person in charge of the rules into saying something they never said.

Well, that makes sense. (Or none, depending on how you look at it.) So basically his only interest is in the developers being wrong. I did read the quotes (apparently more times than Ian) so that's where I was swerving.

[Xilizhra]

To be honest, I don't know why anyone cares about legality when the laws as they stand are evil and corrupt.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

@Wulfram

You have the right of it, perhaps Polaris would be willing to tell us what is so inconsistent about this setup. For that matter, find us where Elthina is described as the Grand Cleric of the entire Free Marches rather than just Kirkwall.

It's in her codex entry, although that still doesn't mean that a Starkhaven Revered Mother can approve or veto a Kirkwall RoA. "Revered Mother Elthina assumed the mantle of Grand Cleric almost twenty years ago; she is responsible for the spiritual well-being of the southern Free Marches (everything south of Starkhaven and the Minanter River)."

If this situation were reversed and Starkhaven needed to call an RoA, they would have to get approval from Elthina. If Elthina is dead, I would imagine that Petrice cannot approve one in the absence of a Grand Cleric.

See, I would think that once Elthinna dies - under normal circumstances, of course - the highest ranking Revered Mother in that region would assume the title, at least on an interim basis, until a formal decision is made, however that is done (I don't think we know whether Revered Mothers vote, or the Divine picks someone, or they have a drinking contest and the last one standing wins).

There's clearly a duel tree of command here, something that's getting blown out of proportion and lost.  A Knight Commander commands Templars, but does so under the command of a Grand Cleric.  Templars are not clerics, they are not clergy, they are not in the line of succession, so to speak, for the Grand Cleric.  I don't think anyone would argue, for example, that if Meredith died, Elthinna becomes Knight Commander.

Only in the case of a catostrophic event, where the Grand Cleric as well as all ranking Revered Mothers are killed - such as when someone blows up the Chantry with them all in it - does the Knight Commander temporarily step into the authority of a Grand Cleric, and only until the situation resolves, and a successor is chosen by the Divine.

So yes, it it was just Elthinna that was killed, then Petrice, assuming she was the next highest ranked Revered Mother, would assume that title on at least an interim basis, IMO.

[TJPags]

Xilizhra wrote...

I have no problem with anyone who decides the way I actually did. My only problem is, and will always be, with people who want to argue it was clearly wrong, it was unsupportable, it was illegal, or it was simply a product of Meredith's mindless hate. Especially when they distort the truth to support their arguments.

Oh, it was clearly wrong, unsupportable, has no worth whatsoever, and ultimately didn't even accomplish anything because the revolution began anyway. You just got to murder a few more people.

That's your opinion.  Mine differs.

As we've done the wrong and unsupportable thing to death, let me address your last points, about it not acomplishing anything because the revolution started anyway.

First, it's unfair to use hindsight like that.  But, even we do, siding with the mages accomplishes nothing as well, since they all die.  You just get to kill a few more people.

And revolutions are not always the right thing.  Just because some people revolt doesn't make them right.  And I wonder, how many people will die in this revolution?

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
See, I would think that once Elthinna dies - under normal circumstances, of course - the highest ranking Revered Mother in that region would assume the title, at least on an interim basis, until a formal decision is made, however that is done (I don't think we know whether Revered Mothers vote, or the Divine picks someone, or they have a drinking contest and the last one standing wins).

There's clearly a duel tree of command here, something that's getting blown out of proportion and lost.  A Knight Commander commands Templars, but does so under the command of a Grand Cleric.  Templars are not clerics, they are not clergy, they are not in the line of succession, so to speak, for the Grand Cleric.  I don't think anyone would argue, for example, that if Meredith died, Elthinna becomes Knight Commander.

Only in the case of a catostrophic event, where the Grand Cleric as well as all ranking Revered Mothers are killed - such as when someone blows up the Chantry with them all in it - does the Knight Commander temporarily step into the authority of a Grand Cleric, and only until the situation resolves, and a successor is chosen by the Divine.

So yes, it it was just Elthinna that was killed, then Petrice, assuming she was the next highest ranked Revered Mother, would assume that title on at least an interim basis, IMO.

I see it more as an org chart with a dotted line from the Grand Cleric to the Knight-Commander. Even Meredith isn't entirely under Elthina's command, but there are specific cases where a Grand Cleric's approval is required. 

Where the RoA comes in though, you have to have a functioning role that has the authority to carry one out in the absence of the Grand Cleric. That person is Meredith, not the Revered Mother in Starkhaven. That part at least, is very clear.

[Xilizhra]

First, it's unfair to use hindsight like that. But, even we do, siding with the mages accomplishes nothing as well, since they all die. You just get to kill a few more people.

Incorrect. Varric: "Many survived to tell the tale."

And revolutions are not always the right thing. Just because some people revolt doesn't make them right. And I wonder, how many people will die in this revolution?

No, but in this situation, they're right for revolting. As for how many would die, how many would die/become Tranquil/etc. in the future if we do nothing? I didn't start the revolution, obviously, but now that we're in it, there's really no other choice other than to fight in it.

[Heimdall]

Monica21 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

@Wulfram

You have the right of it, perhaps Polaris would be willing to tell us what is so inconsistent about this setup. For that matter, find us where Elthina is described as the Grand Cleric of the entire Free Marches rather than just Kirkwall.

It's in her codex entry, although that still doesn't mean that a Starkhaven Revered Mother can approve or veto a Kirkwall RoA. "Revered Mother Elthina assumed the mantle of Grand Cleric almost twenty years ago; she is responsible for the spiritual well-being of the southern Free Marches (everything south of Starkhaven and the Minanter River)."

If this situation were reversed and Starkhaven needed to call an RoA, they would have to get approval from Elthina. If Elthina is dead, I would imagine that Petrice cannot approve one in the absence of a Grand Cleric.

  A portion of the Free Marches then, though that Codex entry seems to imply that Starkhaven is not included (Perhaps the Grand Cleric of the Northen Free Marches is based in Starkhaven, we already know there's a Circle there) so the point is a bit moot.

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I am arguing for consistancy.  Given that DG expressly said what Meredith did was legal, then it logically follows that if Ethina either dissapears and/or leaves Kirkwall, then Meredith is able to call (and will call) the RoA on her own authority.  If you argue this point, then you are in effect saying that what Meredith did was not legal.  You don't get it both ways.

-Polaris

There's nothing inconsistent.

Grand Cleric alive = Meredith can't authorise Annullment
Ranking Reverend Mother present in Kirkwall = Meredith can't authorise Annullment
Grand Cleric dead and no Ranking Reverend Mother in Kirkwall = Meredith can authorise Annullment

DG never said that.  He only said that there was no Revered Mother present to challenge Meredith's authority.  He even admitted that he Chantry had a chain of command, but also said WoG that if the Grand Cleric wasn't there it fell to Meredith.  There is nothing that says a Revered Mother ever has this right either by WoG (and no DG doesn't say that) or Codex entry.

-Polariks

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
See, I would think that once Elthinna dies - under normal circumstances, of course - the highest ranking Revered Mother in that region would assume the title, at least on an interim basis, until a formal decision is made, however that is done (I don't think we know whether Revered Mothers vote, or the Divine picks someone, or they have a drinking contest and the last one standing wins).

There's clearly a duel tree of command here, something that's getting blown out of proportion and lost.  A Knight Commander commands Templars, but does so under the command of a Grand Cleric.  Templars are not clerics, they are not clergy, they are not in the line of succession, so to speak, for the Grand Cleric.  I don't think anyone would argue, for example, that if Meredith died, Elthinna becomes Knight Commander.

Only in the case of a catostrophic event, where the Grand Cleric as well as all ranking Revered Mothers are killed - such as when someone blows up the Chantry with them all in it - does the Knight Commander temporarily step into the authority of a Grand Cleric, and only until the situation resolves, and a successor is chosen by the Divine.

So yes, it it was just Elthinna that was killed, then Petrice, assuming she was the next highest ranked Revered Mother, would assume that title on at least an interim basis, IMO.

I see it more as an org chart with a dotted line from the Grand Cleric to the Knight-Commander. Even Meredith isn't entirely under Elthina's command, but there are specific cases where a Grand Cleric's approval is required. 

Where the RoA comes in though, you have to have a functioning role that has the authority to carry one out in the absence of the Grand Cleric. That person is Meredith, not the Revered Mother in Starkhaven. That part at least, is very clear.

That I agree with.  You don't go outside the Grand Cleric's area of control, at the very least, and likely not outside the immediate vicinity.  So Starkhaven is irelevant to this discussion - it's who is in Kirkwall, which is nobody except Meredith.

[Heimdall]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
See, I would think that once Elthinna dies - under normal circumstances, of course - the highest ranking Revered Mother in that region would assume the title, at least on an interim basis, until a formal decision is made, however that is done (I don't think we know whether Revered Mothers vote, or the Divine picks someone, or they have a drinking contest and the last one standing wins).

There's clearly a duel tree of command here, something that's getting blown out of proportion and lost.  A Knight Commander commands Templars, but does so under the command of a Grand Cleric.  Templars are not clerics, they are not clergy, they are not in the line of succession, so to speak, for the Grand Cleric.  I don't think anyone would argue, for example, that if Meredith died, Elthinna becomes Knight Commander.

Only in the case of a catostrophic event, where the Grand Cleric as well as all ranking Revered Mothers are killed - such as when someone blows up the Chantry with them all in it - does the Knight Commander temporarily step into the authority of a Grand Cleric, and only until the situation resolves, and a successor is chosen by the Divine.

So yes, it it was just Elthinna that was killed, then Petrice, assuming she was the next highest ranked Revered Mother, would assume that title on at least an interim basis, IMO.

I see it more as an org chart with a dotted line from the Grand Cleric to the Knight-Commander. Even Meredith isn't entirely under Elthina's command, but there are specific cases where a Grand Cleric's approval is required. 

Where the RoA comes in though, you have to have a functioning role that has the authority to carry one out in the absence of the Grand Cleric. That person is Meredith, not the Revered Mother in Starkhaven. That part at least, is very clear.

  I think the KC is actually under the command of the Grand Cleric for the most part, though I'm largely getting that from the scene where Elthina tells Meredith to go back to the Galows "like a good girl" (I still get a kick out of watching that )

Since there is no Revered Mother within a convenient distance, Starkhaven isn't just next door, it falls to Meredith the ability to call the RoA.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...
Only in the case of a catostrophic event, where the Grand Cleric as well as all ranking Revered Mothers are killed - such as when someone blows up the Chantry with them all in it - does the Knight Commander temporarily step into the authority of a Grand Cleric, and only until the situation resolves, and a successor is chosen by the Divine.

So yes, it it was just Elthinna that was killed, then Petrice, assuming she was the next highest ranked Revered Mother, would assume that title on at least an interim basis, IMO.

That's the problem I'm having with all this.  Even with the Chantry blowing up there were surviving Revered Mothers.  There almost had to be at least in Kirkwall and certainly in Starkhaven or Cumberland, and they would be next in any chain of command and by this self-same logic would be the Acting Grand Cleric.

I argued this point months ago, and was told point-blank that NO, in the absence of a bonafide GRAND CLERIC (not acting Grand Cleric), it was the Knight Commander that made the call.  I agree it makes no sense but that is WoG.  Thus if Elthina took a powder and left Kirkwall, Meredith would certainly seize the opportunity to do a RoA on her own hook.

-Polaris

[Heimdall]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I am arguing for consistancy.  Given that DG expressly said what Meredith did was legal, then it logically follows that if Ethina either dissapears and/or leaves Kirkwall, then Meredith is able to call (and will call) the RoA on her own authority.  If you argue this point, then you are in effect saying that what Meredith did was not legal.  You don't get it both ways.

-Polaris

There's nothing inconsistent.

Grand Cleric alive = Meredith can't authorise Annullment
Ranking Reverend Mother present in Kirkwall = Meredith can't authorise Annullment
Grand Cleric dead and no Ranking Reverend Mother in Kirkwall = Meredith can authorise Annullment

DG never said that.  He only said that there was no Revered Mother present to challenge Meredith's authority.  He even admitted that he Chantry had a chain of command, but also said WoG that if the Grand Cleric wasn't there it fell to Meredith.  There is nothing that says a Revered Mother ever has this right either by WoG (and no DG doesn't say that) or Codex entry.

-Polariks

  He said that it was Meredith's perogative to call the RoA in the absence of a ranking revered mother or the Divine herself once there was no Grand Cleric.  Your assertion only makes any sense if you pretend he never said that, but he did, WoG.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
See, I would think that once Elthinna dies - under normal circumstances, of course - the highest ranking Revered Mother in that region would assume the title, at least on an interim basis, until a formal decision is made, however that is done (I don't think we know whether Revered Mothers vote, or the Divine picks someone, or they have a drinking contest and the last one standing wins).

There's clearly a duel tree of command here, something that's getting blown out of proportion and lost.  A Knight Commander commands Templars, but does so under the command of a Grand Cleric.  Templars are not clerics, they are not clergy, they are not in the line of succession, so to speak, for the Grand Cleric.  I don't think anyone would argue, for example, that if Meredith died, Elthinna becomes Knight Commander.

Only in the case of a catostrophic event, where the Grand Cleric as well as all ranking Revered Mothers are killed - such as when someone blows up the Chantry with them all in it - does the Knight Commander temporarily step into the authority of a Grand Cleric, and only until the situation resolves, and a successor is chosen by the Divine.

So yes, it it was just Elthinna that was killed, then Petrice, assuming she was the next highest ranked Revered Mother, would assume that title on at least an interim basis, IMO.

I see it more as an org chart with a dotted line from the Grand Cleric to the Knight-Commander. Even Meredith isn't entirely under Elthina's command, but there are specific cases where a Grand Cleric's approval is required. 

Where the RoA comes in though, you have to have a functioning role that has the authority to carry one out in the absence of the Grand Cleric. That person is Meredith, not the Revered Mother in Starkhaven. That part at least, is very clear.

That I agree with.  You don't go outside the Grand Cleric's area of control, at the very least, and likely not outside the immediate vicinity.  So Starkhaven is irelevant to this discussion - it's who is in Kirkwall, which is nobody except Meredith.

By that logic then, Gregoire shouldn't have had to send word to Denerim to get a RoA from the Grand Cleric since the Circle Tower in Fereldan is a long aways away from the Immediate Control of Denerim.

However, we all know it doesn't work that way.  It's apparently one Grand Cleric per Nation.  It so happens that the Circle in Kirkwall is in the same city as the Grand Cleric but this is often not the case.  Most circles don't have easy and immediate proximity (within a day) of the Grand Cleric.

-Polaris

[Heimdall]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Only in the case of a catostrophic event, where the Grand Cleric as well as all ranking Revered Mothers are killed - such as when someone blows up the Chantry with them all in it - does the Knight Commander temporarily step into the authority of a Grand Cleric, and only until the situation resolves, and a successor is chosen by the Divine.

So yes, it it was just Elthinna that was killed, then Petrice, assuming she was the next highest ranked Revered Mother, would assume that title on at least an interim basis, IMO.

That's the problem I'm having with all this.  Even with the Chantry blowing up there were surviving Revered Mothers.  There almost had to be at least in Kirkwall and certainly in Starkhaven or Cumberland, and they would be next in any chain of command and by this self-same logic would be the Acting Grand Cleric.

I argued this point months ago, and was told point-blank that NO, in the absence of a bonafide GRAND CLERIC (not acting Grand Cleric), it was the Knight Commander that made the call.  I agree it makes no sense but that is WoG.  Thus if Elthina took a powder and left Kirkwall, Meredith would certainly seize the opportunity to do a RoA on her own hook.

-Polaris

  There were not any surviving revered mothers, they went up with the chantry.  Revered mothers from Starkhaven or Cumberland are not within the Chantry chain of command in Kirkwall and thus irrelevant.  The quote We've been referencing disagrees with you, WoG.

[IanPolaris]

Lord Aesir wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I am arguing for consistancy.  Given that DG expressly said what Meredith did was legal, then it logically follows that if Ethina either dissapears and/or leaves Kirkwall, then Meredith is able to call (and will call) the RoA on her own authority.  If you argue this point, then you are in effect saying that what Meredith did was not legal.  You don't get it both ways.

-Polaris

There's nothing inconsistent.

Grand Cleric alive = Meredith can't authorise Annullment
Ranking Reverend Mother present in Kirkwall = Meredith can't authorise Annullment
Grand Cleric dead and no Ranking Reverend Mother in Kirkwall = Meredith can authorise Annullment

DG never said that.  He only said that there was no Revered Mother present to challenge Meredith's authority.  He even admitted that he Chantry had a chain of command, but also said WoG that if the Grand Cleric wasn't there it fell to Meredith.  There is nothing that says a Revered Mother ever has this right either by WoG (and no DG doesn't say that) or Codex entry.

-Polariks

  He said that it was Meredith's perogative to call the RoA in the absence of a ranking revered mother or the Divine herself once there was no Grand Cleric.  Your assertion only makes any sense if you pretend he never said that, but he did, WoG.

Reread that quote.  That is NOT what DG said.  He said that in the absence of the Grand Cleric or the Divine, the authority fell on Meredith.  He then went on to add that this was certainly the case with no senior Revered mother.  The second sentence does not modify the first whatsoever.  It merely illustrates that there was no senior clerical authority immediately present to challenge Meredith, not that that challenge would have had merit.

Please read what you quote.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lord Aesir wrote...

 There were not any surviving revered mothers, they went up with the chantry.  Revered mothers from Starkhaven or Cumberland are not within the Chantry chain of command in Kirkwall and thus irrelevant.  The quote We've been referencing disagrees with you, WoG.

Evidence would be nice re no surviving Revered Mothers.  The game never makes that claim certainly not in Kirkwall, and if you read the various Codex entries, the Revered Mothers of Starkhaven and Cumberland most certainly are in the Chantry Chain of Command and thus ARE relevent.  As for the quote, it doesn't say what you claim.  Bottom line.

-Polaris

[Heimdall]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
See, I would think that once Elthinna dies - under normal circumstances, of course - the highest ranking Revered Mother in that region would assume the title, at least on an interim basis, until a formal decision is made, however that is done (I don't think we know whether Revered Mothers vote, or the Divine picks someone, or they have a drinking contest and the last one standing wins).

There's clearly a duel tree of command here, something that's getting blown out of proportion and lost.  A Knight Commander commands Templars, but does so under the command of a Grand Cleric.  Templars are not clerics, they are not clergy, they are not in the line of succession, so to speak, for the Grand Cleric.  I don't think anyone would argue, for example, that if Meredith died, Elthinna becomes Knight Commander.

Only in the case of a catostrophic event, where the Grand Cleric as well as all ranking Revered Mothers are killed - such as when someone blows up the Chantry with them all in it - does the Knight Commander temporarily step into the authority of a Grand Cleric, and only until the situation resolves, and a successor is chosen by the Divine.

So yes, it it was just Elthinna that was killed, then Petrice, assuming she was the next highest ranked Revered Mother, would assume that title on at least an interim basis, IMO.

I see it more as an org chart with a dotted line from the Grand Cleric to the Knight-Commander. Even Meredith isn't entirely under Elthina's command, but there are specific cases where a Grand Cleric's approval is required. 

Where the RoA comes in though, you have to have a functioning role that has the authority to carry one out in the absence of the Grand Cleric. That person is Meredith, not the Revered Mother in Starkhaven. That part at least, is very clear.

That I agree with.  You don't go outside the Grand Cleric's area of control, at the very least, and likely not outside the immediate vicinity.  So Starkhaven is irelevant to this discussion - it's who is in Kirkwall, which is nobody except Meredith.

By that logic then, Gregoire shouldn't have had to send word to Denerim to get a RoA from the Grand Cleric since the Circle Tower in Fereldan is a long aways away from the Immediate Control of Denerim.

However, we all know it doesn't work that way.  It's apparently one Grand Cleric per Nation.  It so happens that the Circle in Kirkwall is in the same city as the Grand Cleric but this is often not the case.  Most circles don't have easy and immediate proximity (within a day) of the Grand Cleric.

-Polaris

  The Circle tower in Ferelden is within the direct control of the Grand Cleric of Ferelden.  So, yes, Gregoire had to send for the RoA.  Ferelden had an atypical setup, most circles are quite close to the capital city where the Grand Cleric is located.  Elthina was only in charge of the Southern Free Marches, which is described as being the area south of Starkhaven.  Therefore a Revered Mother in Starkhaven has no bearing on the Chantry chain of command in Kirkwall.

[Monica21]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

@Wulfram

You have the right of it, perhaps Polaris would be willing to tell us what is so inconsistent about this setup. For that matter, find us where Elthina is described as the Grand Cleric of the entire Free Marches rather than just Kirkwall.

It's in her codex entry, although that still doesn't mean that a Starkhaven Revered Mother can approve or veto a Kirkwall RoA. "Revered Mother Elthina assumed the mantle of Grand Cleric almost twenty years ago; she is responsible for the spiritual well-being of the southern Free Marches (everything south of Starkhaven and the Minanter River)."

If this situation were reversed and Starkhaven needed to call an RoA, they would have to get approval from Elthina. If Elthina is dead, I would imagine that Petrice cannot approve one in the absence of a Grand Cleric.

  A portion of the Free Marches then, though that Codex entry seems to imply that Starkhaven is not included (Perhaps the Grand Cleric of the Northen Free Marches is based in Starkhaven, we already know there's a Circle there) so the point is a bit moot.

The entry is a little odd, but the Minanter River is north of Starkhaven, so Starkhaven falls under Elthina's authority. I'm not seeing a clear line for "Free Marches" on a map so northern Free Marches might be north of the Minanter, but it's not clear where Antiva ends and the Free Marches begin. 

[IanPolaris]

Lord Aesir wrote...

 The Circle tower in Ferelden is within the direct control of the Grand Cleric of Ferelden.  So, yes, Gregoire had to send for the RoA.  Ferelden had an atypical setup, most circles are quite close to the capital city where the Grand Cleric is located.  Elthina was only in charge of the Southern Free Marches, which is described as being the area south of Starkhaven.  Therefore a Revered Mother in Starkhaven has no bearing on the Chantry chain of command in Kirkwall.

We know that isn't true.  It's one Grand Cleric per nation, but most nations have mutiple towers usually (but not always) located in major cities.  Thus the usual case is to have the Grand Cleric be at least a few days journey away.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Monica21 wrote...

The entry is a little odd, but the Minanter River is north of Starkhaven, so Starkhaven falls under Elthina's authority. I'm not seeing a clear line for "Free Marches" on a map so northern Free Marches might be north of the Minanter, but it's not clear where Antiva ends and the Free Marches begin. 

Indeed, the fact that the third born son of the Prince of Starkhaven would wind up in Elthina's Cathedral tells you that Starkhaven does indeed fall under Grand Cleric Elthina's Relgious influence as well.

-Polaris

[Heimdall]

Monica21 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

@Wulfram

You have the right of it, perhaps Polaris would be willing to tell us what is so inconsistent about this setup. For that matter, find us where Elthina is described as the Grand Cleric of the entire Free Marches rather than just Kirkwall.

It's in her codex entry, although that still doesn't mean that a Starkhaven Revered Mother can approve or veto a Kirkwall RoA. "Revered Mother Elthina assumed the mantle of Grand Cleric almost twenty years ago; she is responsible for the spiritual well-being of the southern Free Marches (everything south of Starkhaven and the Minanter River)."

If this situation were reversed and Starkhaven needed to call an RoA, they would have to get approval from Elthina. If Elthina is dead, I would imagine that Petrice cannot approve one in the absence of a Grand Cleric.

  A portion of the Free Marches then, though that Codex entry seems to imply that Starkhaven is not included (Perhaps the Grand Cleric of the Northen Free Marches is based in Starkhaven, we already know there's a Circle there) so the point is a bit moot.

The entry is a little odd, but the Minanter River is north of Starkhaven, so Starkhaven falls under Elthina's authority. I'm not seeing a clear line for "Free Marches" on a map so northern Free Marches might be north of the Minanter, but it's not clear where Antiva ends and the Free Marches begin. 

  It specifically says "South of Starkhaven" though, so it would seem that it falls outside her jurisdiction which would not be so odd given that it is so close to the river.

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...
Evidence would be nice re no surviving Revered Mothers.  The game never makes that claim certainly not in Kirkwall, and if you read the various Codex entries, the Revered Mothers of Starkhaven and Cumberland most certainly are in the Chantry Chain of Command and thus ARE relevent.  As for the quote, it doesn't say what you claim.  Bottom line.

-Polaris

Does Petrice die in Act 2 no matter what? If that's the case, there is no Revered Mother in Act 3. So there you go, Petrice is dead, hence no surviving Revered Mothers.

Being part of the Chantry hierarchy does not mean they have authority over a Circle in a different city. So no, they are not relevant in this decision.

[Heimdall]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

 The Circle tower in Ferelden is within the direct control of the Grand Cleric of Ferelden.  So, yes, Gregoire had to send for the RoA.  Ferelden had an atypical setup, most circles are quite close to the capital city where the Grand Cleric is located.  Elthina was only in charge of the Southern Free Marches, which is described as being the area south of Starkhaven.  Therefore a Revered Mother in Starkhaven has no bearing on the Chantry chain of command in Kirkwall.

We know that isn't true.  It's one Grand Cleric per nation, but most nations have mutiple towers usually (but not always) located in major cities.  Thus the usual case is to have the Grand Cleric be at least a few days journey away.

-Polaris

Where did you gather this?  All the major Circle towers I've heard of where in relative close proximity to the capital.

[Xilizhra]

Does Petrice die in Act 2 no matter what?

No.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 septembre 2011 - 04:25 .

[Heimdall]

IanPolaris wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

The entry is a little odd, but the Minanter River is north of Starkhaven, so Starkhaven falls under Elthina's authority. I'm not seeing a clear line for "Free Marches" on a map so northern Free Marches might be north of the Minanter, but it's not clear where Antiva ends and the Free Marches begin. 

Indeed, the fact that the third born son of the Prince of Starkhaven would wind up in Elthina's Cathedral tells you that Starkhaven does indeed fall under Grand Cleric Elthina's Relgious influence as well.

-Polaris

Not at all.  A royal family that wanted to put their son into a religious life could quite easily prefer to put him out of reach of local influences that might try to take advantage of his status as an heir.  That tells us nothing.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 25 septembre 2011 - 04:27 .