585 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

The entry is a little odd, but the Minanter River is north of Starkhaven, so Starkhaven falls under Elthina's authority. I'm not seeing a clear line for "Free Marches" on a map so northern Free Marches might be north of the Minanter, but it's not clear where Antiva ends and the Free Marches begin. 

Indeed, the fact that the third born son of the Prince of Starkhaven would wind up in Elthina's Cathedral tells you that Starkhaven does indeed fall under Grand Cleric Elthina's Relgious influence as well.

-Polaris

Irrelevant. What does a Revered Mother in Starkhaven have to do with the Circle in Kirkwall?

[sphinxess]

She's bluffing. There is no chance of a exalted march, against what? Even if the mages beat the Templars its not like they rule Kirkwall, if they heard of a army approaching they would just fade into the countryside.

[Heimdall]

sphinxess wrote...

She's bluffing. There is no chance of a exalted march, against what? Even if the mages beat the Templars its not like they rule Kirkwall, if they heard of a army approaching they would just fade into the countryside.

I think the idea would be that an Exalted March would contain, or erase, the Mage uprising in Kirkwall before it set off a chain reaction in other cities.

[Wulfram]

sphinxess wrote...

She's bluffing. There is no chance of a exalted march, against what? Even if the mages beat the Templars its not like they rule Kirkwall, if they heard of a army approaching they would just fade into the countryside.

Bluffing requires she actually suggests that there is a prospect of an Exalted March.  Which she doesn't.

[Monica21]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I think the KC is actually under the command of the Grand Cleric for the most part, though I'm largely getting that from the scene where Elthina tells Meredith to go back to the Galows "like a good girl" (I still get a kick out of watching that )

Since there is no Revered Mother within a convenient distance, Starkhaven isn't just next door, it falls to Meredith the ability to call the RoA.

I think you're right about being under the Grand Cleric's authority "for the most part." There is a Knight-Vigilant in Val Royeaux where direct commands come from. The chain of command is confusing, as the Knight-Vigilant is probably under the command of the Divine, but directly supervises his Knight-Commanders, but each Knight-Commander is under the tangential control of the Grand Clerics. 

I would like to know more about the command structure, and whether a Mother from a neighboring city-state could approve or veto an RoA. I still equate it to a Catholic diocese. If a Bishop is absent for whatever reason and some very very important decision must be made, the Bishop of a neighboring diocese doesn't make the decision. The Arch-Bishop does.

[Heimdall]

Monica21 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
I think the KC is actually under the command of the Grand Cleric for the most part, though I'm largely getting that from the scene where Elthina tells Meredith to go back to the Galows "like a good girl" (I still get a kick out of watching that )

Since there is no Revered Mother within a convenient distance, Starkhaven isn't just next door, it falls to Meredith the ability to call the RoA.

I think you're right about being under the Grand Cleric's authority "for the most part." There is a Knight-Vigilant in Val Royeaux where direct commands come from. The chain of command is confusing, as the Knight-Vigilant is probably under the command of the Divine, but directly supervises his Knight-Commanders, but each Knight-Commander is under the tangential control of the Grand Clerics. 

I would like to know more about the command structure, and whether a Mother from a neighboring city-state could approve or veto an RoA. I still equate it to a Catholic diocese. If a Bishop is absent for whatever reason and some very very important decision must be made, the Bishop of a neighboring diocese doesn't make the decision. The Arch-Bishop does.

  I tend to agree.  Too bad we're dealing with intertwined paralell command structures, it's enough to cause me a headache.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 25 septembre 2011 - 06:36 .

[IanPolaris]

Monica21 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Evidence would be nice re no surviving Revered Mothers.  The game never makes that claim certainly not in Kirkwall, and if you read the various Codex entries, the Revered Mothers of Starkhaven and Cumberland most certainly are in the Chantry Chain of Command and thus ARE relevent.  As for the quote, it doesn't say what you claim.  Bottom line.

-Polaris

Does Petrice die in Act 2 no matter what? If that's the case, there is no Revered Mother in Act 3. So there you go, Petrice is dead, hence no surviving Revered Mothers.
.

No she doesn't.  An Agressive Hawke can keep her alive under some conditions.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Where did you gather this?  All the major Circle towers I've heard of where in relative close proximity to the capital.

A basic skill lost to most here:  deduction.

There is only one capitol per nation, but with the sole exception of Fereldan, there are multiple Circle Towers in each nation.  Therefore it logically follows that in general the Grand Cleric will not be in the same city as the Circle Tower.

-Polaris

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

She's bluffing. There is no chance of a exalted march, against what? Even if the mages beat the Templars its not like they rule Kirkwall, if they heard of a army approaching they would just fade into the countryside.

Bluffing requires she actually suggests that there is a prospect of an Exalted March.  Which she doesn't.

Correct. What Leliana says:

"The Divine sent me to investigate the possiblity of a rebellion here, in Kirkwall."
 "The Resolutionists have become violent. They are likely behind the unrest here."
"The Divine has long suspected that Kirkwall's problems were spurred by an outside group. This attack proves she is right."

Hawke: Will the Divine send soldiers?
Leliana: Divine Justinia takes the situation here very seriously. She believes it is the worst threat to Thedas since the Qunari invaded. The whole world is watching Kirkwall. If it falls to magic, none of us are safe.

She doesn't say yes or no, but she, and the Divine, seem far more concerned about the Resolutionists and outside influence than about the Kirkwall Circle. I don't believe that they would send troops against Kirkwall, because there's nothing in Kirkwall that's of concern. They seem to believe that if Kirkwall "falls to magic" it will fall to these outside influences which include apostates, the mage underground, and the Resolutionists, all of which are much harder to guard against. Neither of them seem to fear an uprising within the Circle itself.

Modifié par Monica21, 25 septembre 2011 - 06:54 .

[Heimdall]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Where did you gather this?  All the major Circle towers I've heard of where in relative close proximity to the capital.

A basic skill lost to most here:  deduction.

There is only one capitol per nation, but with the sole exception of Fereldan, there are multiple Circle Towers in each nation.  Therefore it logically follows that in general the Grand Cleric will not be in the same city as the Circle Tower.

-Polaris

  Even if true, this accomplishes... what?

As Gregoire shows, even though the tower is at least a few days from Denerim, he still has to send for a Right of Annulment from the regionary Grand Cleric.  As Starkhaven is not part of the same juistiction, a Revered Mother there would have no business in Kirkwall's chain of command.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 25 septembre 2011 - 06:58 .

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...
A basic skill lost to most here:  deduction.

There is only one capitol per nation, but with the sole exception of Fereldan, there are multiple Circle Towers in each nation.  Therefore it logically follows that in general the Grand Cleric will not be in the same city as the Circle Tower.

No. The only nation with more than one circle is Nevarra. The Free Marches do not count as a nation.

• Circle Tower, Lake Calenhad (Ferelden)
• Gallows, Kirkwall (Free Marches)
• Circle of Magi, Starkhaven (Free Marches)
• Circle of Magi, Ansburg (between the Free Marches and Antiva)
• Circle of Magi, Ostwick (Free Marches)
• Circle of Magi, Antiva
• Circle of Magi, Montsimmard (Orlais)
• Circle of Magi, Nevarra City (Nevarra)
• Circle of Magi, Dairsmuid (Rivain)
• Circle of Magi, Hossberg (Anderfels)
• Circle of Magi, Cumberland (this Nevarran Circle is the largest and most powerful controlled by the Andrastian Chantry and the Orlesian White Divine. Seat of power for the Grand Enchanter of all the Circles.)

"Looking stuff up" seems to be a lost skill.

Edited to add that I left out the Tevinter circles because they're irrelevant and the Orzammar circle because that's dependant on player choice.

Modifié par Monica21, 25 septembre 2011 - 07:03 .

[Heimdall]

Thank you Monica21

EDIT: actually it looks like there are two in the Tervinter Imperium, but they aren't part of the same Chantry so it doesn't matter for this discussion.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 25 septembre 2011 - 07:04 .

[Monica21]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Thank you Monica21

EDIT: actually it looks like there are two in the Tervinter Imperium, but they aren't part of the same Chantry so it doesn't matter for this discussion.

Yes, I left those out as well as the Orzammar circle, because that's dependant on player choice.

And the location of the Circles is interesting. Orlais does not have a Circle in Val Royeaux. The Grand Enchanter is in the Cumberland Circle and not in Val Royeaux, even though that position is described as being a senior advisor to the Divine. So, of all the circles, only two are not located in the country's capitals: Ferelden and Orlais.

[Herr Uhl]

On a sidenote, Gregoir was sending word to Denerim not to ask permission, but rather to get reinforcements. Why else would he let four random mooks that just arrived slaughter his wards?

Seeing as his sending word to Denerim is used as an argument here.

[Monica21]

Herr Uhl wrote...

On a sidenote, Gregoir was sending word to Denerim not to ask permission, but rather to get reinforcements. Why else would he let four random mooks that just arrived slaughter his wards?

Seeing as his sending word to Denerim is used as an argument here.

Well, what he says is "I have sent word to Denerim, calling for reinforcements and the Right of Annulment."

Greagoir is not giving the Warden the authority to carry out the Right, but saying, hey, if you want to go in I'll let you but I'm not responsible for what happens. He can probably justify this by telling the Grand Cleric that you needed aid against the Blight and neither the mages nor the Templars were in any position to help. Yes, you can kill everyone, but you can just as easily die a horrible death at the hands of an abomination.

[Wulfram]

You don't really need the Right of Annullment to kill Abominations and Blood Mages in open rebellion, I'd have thought. And Greagoir doesn't believe that any others survive in the tower. If Irving lives, even if you back Cullen, he does not kill him, only imprisons him for the Grand Cleric to decide his face

He explicitly says that "Only the grand cleric in Denerim can authorize the Annulment of this Circle."

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Who is going to know what happened behind closed doors?[/quote]

You mean behind the closed doors of Gamlen Amell, who just happened to be harboring an apostate and ohbytheway two Templars are missing or found dead, one of which just happens to be the Knight-Captain, who more than one member of Lowtown saw either on his way to Gamlen's hovel or entering it, and that just happens to be the last time he was seen alive. Yes, who could possibly come to the conclusion that Hawke was responsible? [/quote]

In a city where people die all the time, so much so that nobody believes a serial killer is murdering specific people. It's the reason why I think Hawke could get away with killing Leliana with no witnesses, especially since it looks like she is going to recommend that the Divine launch an Exalted March against Kirkwall, which would lead to the deaths of many people, possibly even Hawke (regardless of whether he's pro-templar or pro-mage).

If people suspect that Hawke is responsible, wouldn't they need evidence to convict him? What if Hawke takes his little sister and leaves the city, possibly to Ferelden? If Hawke kills Cullen and the other templar behind closed doors, no one is going to immediately find out what he did. He would have time to get his sister out of Kirkwall. The entire point behind killing Cullen and the only other templar we see in Gamlen's small home is protecting Bethany. I'm not advocating that Hawke would remain in Kirkwall after killing Cullen, but that he could leave with Bethany so she wouldn't suffer at the hands of templars like Ser Kerras, or lose her humanity to the Rite of Tranquility.

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

Come on. You're making Meredith's RoA look sane by comparison. [/quote]

How is Hawke protecting his sister insane when we know that Circle mages are getting tortured, raped, and made tranquil against Chantry law? A tranquil proprietor admits she will be beaten if she steals, another Circle mage admits she'll be whipped for talking to a civilian, a tranquil admits she was made tranquil for falling in love with another mage because of Ser Alrik, Ser Kerras threatens a female Hawke with rape, and Karl was made tranquil against Chantry law with a letter confirming the suspicious circumstances of his Rite of Tranquility.

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Which is why I'd imagine Ser Thrask could easily provide an explanation that didn't involve the Amell family.[/quote]

Why would Thrask have a reason to help Hawke cover up the murder of his Knight Captain? [/quote]

The same reason Thrask helped Hawke before: he's protecting someone. Why wouldn't he help the man who kept his daughter's apostate status a secret and came to his aide regarding the Starkhaven mages, especially if he's given the incriminating letter regarding what happend to Karl?

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

How does Leandra suffer if Bethany is protected from being raped or made tranquil? How does Leandra suffer if two templars are killed and Hawke has a templar ally who could mislead the investigation from hurting Leandra while Hawke gets Bethany out of Kirkwall? Why should Bethany be sacrificed?[/quote]

Leandra has made it quite clear (as has Bethany) that she has no desire to leave Kirkwall. You're making her suffer simply because your actions put her at risk. If you take her with you you're requiring your 50-something mother to live life on the run. 

And why do you assume rape and tranquility? You do realize there are a lot of mages in the Circle who aren't raped and aren't tranquiled, right? Again, you've met Thrask, you've helped Cullen. You can get them on your side. You are treating this situation as if it's unavoidable that Bethany will be raped and tranquiled, nevermind the fact that it doesn't happen. [/quote]

Because they are risks for Circle mages in the Gallows, including Circle mage Bethany. What we do know is that Alain was raped. Ella was threatened with implied rape. Ella was threatened with tranquility for trying to tell her mother she was still alive. A Circle mage laments that she was going to be made tranquil against Chantry law. A mage told her lover that Alrik controlled her now as a tranquil mage. Karl was made tranquil, even though he was sent to Kirkwall since they needed new mages (which means he wasn't an apprentice and therefore a Harrowed mage).

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Leandra doesn't pale, she simply doesn't want to go because Kirkwall is her home. There's no mention of Leandra not being physically able to go to another city. Even Hawke's sibling makes no such claim if Hawke suggests leaving the city to attempt to find sanctuary elsewhere.[/quote]

Right. She doesn't want to go. So you're going to kill a few Templars because everyone in that house is breaking the law by harboring Bethany and you're going to either take Bethany on the run with you, which she also doesn't want, and leave your mother in poverty. All because you refuse to see that you have the means to keep Bethany safe in the Circle. [/quote]

Bethany isn't safe in the Circle. She's at risk from getting raped, tortured, or made tranquil.

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There's no difference in Hawke protecting random strangers and Hawke protecting his sister, so you don't know that Thrask won't settle for this.[/quote]

What Thrask won't do is stand by while you kill his superior. [/quote]

You mean Cullen, who thinks mages shouldn't be treated like people and are weapons? And why wouldn't Thrask accept that Hawke is protecting his sister if what happened to Karl is addressed, especially since Hawke can find a letter that is on one of the templars confirming the suspicious circumstances around Karl's tranquility, especially since it's inferred that Karl was already a Harrowed mage.

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

So you assume. Gamlen didn't sell Hawke or Bethany out, and apostate Hawke remains free in a mansion while Gamlen remains in his shack for years.[/quote]

Don't jump ahead to Act 2 or pull in a different situation. We don't know why Gamlen stays in Lowtown after Act 1 and it's not relevant. Gamlen didn't have a reason to sell out Bethany in Act 1. If he'd gone to the Templars and attempted to blackmail them into getting his mansion back he'd be much more likely to be jailed rather than getting anything. He may have a terrible poker face but he's not stupid. [/quote]

It is relevant that Gamlen didn't sell out Bethany being an apostate after Hawke and Bethany served their indentured servitude, and Gamlen never threatens or coerces Hawke over Bethany's status as an apostate even when he becomes a partner with Bartrand and Varric. There's nothing to suggest that he would sell Bethany out to the templars.

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not going to risk my sister getting raped or made tranquil simply because she feels bad that people have looked out for her all her life. I care more about my sister's humanity remaining intact than seeing it permanently gone.[/quote]

How are you keeping your sister's humanity intact by forcing her to run again? Where can she simply be a mage? There's nowhere but the Circle. Even in the Wardens she's Bethany the Warden. She doesn't have to hide anymore and she doesn't have to pretend she's something other than what she is. The Circle is the only place she can simply be Bethany the Mage instead of Bethany the Fugitive. [/quote]

Because Bethany won't risk being made tranquil if she's not in the Kirkwall Circle, and we know that even Harrowed mages have been made tranquil against Chantry law from "Tranquility." Even if Hawke merely suspected this was the case, I wouldn't gamble my sister's life or humanity on it.

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages are being made tranquil against Chantry law, so it doesn't matter that Bethany isn't a troublemaker. A mage was made tranquil because she feel in love with another mage, so that now Ser Alrik commands her. Another mage says she's being made tranquil for no reason by Ser Alrik. I'd never abandon my sister to the Circle of Kirkwall, given what the story reveals to Hawke by the end of Act I.[/quote]

I really don't know how many times I have to tell you this, but you are not abandoning her. [/quote]

How is Hawke not abandoning her by doing nothing to protect her? Bethany could have easily suffered the same fate as Alain or Karl. Hawke is doing nothing while she's going to be imprisoned in a fortress where mages are getting tortured, raped, and made tranquil against Chantry law. By doing nothing, Hawke is allowing Cullen and the other templar to take Bethany to a monsterous place where Karl lost his humanity, and where the same could happen to her.

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

You live in the same city. You have constant contact with the Templars. [/quote]

Which doesn't mean anything to Ser Kerras (if he's alive), Ser Alrik, or the templars who raped Alain.

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

You have constant contact with the Knight Captain. There is no reason to think that those people will refuse to help you. If nothing else, a word from Cullen would be enough to scare any Boogeyman Templar into staying away from Bethany. 

Your fears are irrational, inconsistent, and not based in any semblance of reason or logic. [/quote]

Why? Because you like Cullen, it's irrational for me to address that he sees mages as weapons and doesn't think they should be treated as people? That, despite Cullen's presence, mages are still being raped, tortured, and made tranquil against Chantry law? Cullen doesn't seem to care that Ser Alrik was making mages tranquil illegally, he's more upset that Alrik was killed. Cullen doesn't seem to have an issue with the Rite of Tranquility (since Hawke and Anders can accuse him of supporting it and he never denies the accusation), and he actually threatens Hawke over Bethany. There is no evidence to support that Cullen would do this for Hawke. Even Ser Thrask apparently can't protect Alain from getting raped by templars.

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...
<some stuff>

You know what, mage-freedom-at-any-cost guy? We're not going to agree. And I would say it's been nice disagreeing with you, but it hasn't. Your arguments are just as irrational and illogical as they were the day you said you think it would be just fine and you'd totally get away with killing a Templar Knight-Captain in your uncle's home, despite all evidence to the contrary and despite your grown sister's wish for you to stay the hell out of it. 

Yes, I do like Cullen. I think he's a reasonable Templar. But that doesn't have anything to do with what I think about killing a Knight-Captain. If Alrik was the one to take Bethany away, it would be just as stupid to try and kill him, and for the exact reasons I've already stated.

And now I'm done playing quote wars with you.

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If two templars are killed in a hovel in a bad part of Kirkwall, who is going to tell anyone that Hawke was complicit in killing two templars? There's no evidence that Hawke was involved, and I'm certain Hawke could call in a favor to Ser Thrask if he needed to protect his family while he got his sister out of Kirkwall.

Hawke and his moiety crew kill a plethora of templars in Hightown (if Hawke kills Kerras), and that doesn't lead to the templars investigating Hawke. The fortune in the Deep Roads was found, Leandra could have her old family estate back, but why should Hawke stand idly by and do nothing when his sister will risk losing her very humanity to a place where her jailors break the law with no repercussions?

I think even Emeric and the City Guard could figure out what happened, even assuming that Cullen and the other Templar are the only ones there. Especially since the hovel is Hawke's house, and it's extremely unlikely that Cullen went to gather up Bethany without telling a soul. How is this "no evidence"? 

Because Hawke would kill Cullen and the other templar behind closed doors. Because there's no actual evidence that Hawke was the one who killed Knight-Captain Cullen and the single templar accompanying him. Hawke would be a suspect, but there's no actual evidence implicating him in the murder of Cullen and the other templar. One of the reasons that Aveline doubts Emeric's story about a serial killer is because so many people are killed in Kirkwall, that she didn't think the deaths would be related. Kirkwall is a very dangerous place to live, after all.

This is the same reason that Hawke could kill Leliana without anyone knowing that he was involved. Hawke killing Leliana in the Viscount's Keep, with no witnesses - amidst other dead bodies around - would mean that only Hawke would know that 'Sister Nightingale' actually showed up. Kirkwall isn't exactly a safe place, since Darktown is known for being a place where people dumb bodies.

Monica21 wrote...

I haven't killed Kerras so I don't know how that plays out.

Kerras implies he'll rape a female Hawke when he tells his men to leave her for him. If he's spared, he's one of the templars who rapes Alain. I'm never inclined to spare Kerras.

Monica21 wrote...

You don't know what you have until after you get back and until after Bethany is taken. And what makes a nouveau riche Kirkwaller so special? Arl Eamon's son had to go the Circle. The De Launcets had to send their son to the Circle. Your last name and the fact that you may or may not have the money to move to Hightown at the end of Act 1 doesn't mean anything. 

If I was Hawke and my choices were between becoming wealthy or protecting my sister by leaving Kirkwall, I would choose my sister. I wouldn't care about becoming wealthly if I had the choice between making a fortune or protecting my sister from harm. Hawke doesn't know that Bethany is protected by "plot armor" when she's taken by Cullen, and I didn't think it made sense that my rogue Hawke would simply stand idly by while she was taken. I stopped playing because my rogue was too OOC for me. I don't understand how anyone would simply do nothing while their little sister was taken to a place that they know is monsterous. I'd make the choice to protect Bethany. Maybe Hawke would fail, but I don't see why he wouldn't even try when his sister could lose her humanity if he does nothing.

[IanPolaris]

Monica21 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
A basic skill lost to most here:  deduction.

There is only one capitol per nation, but with the sole exception of Fereldan, there are multiple Circle Towers in each nation.  Therefore it logically follows that in general the Grand Cleric will not be in the same city as the Circle Tower.

No. The only nation with more than one circle is Nevarra. The Free Marches do not count as a nation.

• Circle Tower, Lake Calenhad (Ferelden)
  
  
• Gallows, Kirkwall (Free Marches)
  
  
• Circle of Magi, Starkhaven (Free Marches)
  
  
• Circle of Magi, Ansburg (between the Free Marches and Antiva)
  
  
• Circle of Magi, Ostwick (Free Marches)
  
  
• Circle of Magi, Antiva
  
  
• Circle of Magi, Montsimmard (Orlais)
  
  
• Circle of Magi, Nevarra City (Nevarra)
  
  
• Circle of Magi, Dairsmuid (Rivain)
  
  
• Circle of Magi, Hossberg (Anderfels)
  
  
• Circle of Magi, Cumberland (this Nevarran Circle is the largest and most powerful controlled by the Andrastian Chantry and the Orlesian White Divine. Seat of power for the Grand Enchanter of all the Circles.)

"Looking stuff up" seems to be a lost skill.

Edited to add that I left out the Tevinter circles because they're irrelevant and the Orzammar circle because that's dependant on player choice.

Yes it is considering that there are 14 circles outside of Tevinter and you only list eleven.  We know that Orlais has several circles and Antiva and Nevarra have at least two.  The Free Marches do count as a nation for this argument because that's how the Chantry handles/treats is for administrative purposes.  IIRC the game explicitly states that Orlais (for example) has several and that Fereldan was unique in only having one (although Rivvain is an obvious and touchy case that may be an exception).

[*]
-Polaris
[*]Edit PS:  I notice that your own list shows at least two circles for Nevarra and Antiva which invalidates your entire post.  Look things up indeed.....

Modifié par IanPolaris, 25 septembre 2011 - 07:51 .

[Herr Uhl]

Wulfram wrote...

You don't really need the Right of Annullment to kill Abominations and Blood Mages in open rebellion, I'd have thought. And Greagoir doesn't believe that any others survive in the tower. If Irving lives, even if you back Cullen, he does not kill him, only imprisons him for the Grand Cleric to decide his face

He explicitly says that "Only the grand cleric in Denerim can authorize the Annulment of this Circle."

This is where he makes the call. That is what I'm talking about.

[rak72]

People get raped in prison all the time, so are you trying to say that all officers arresting a fugitive should be mowed down by said fugitive's family.

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

You know what, mage-freedom-at-any-cost guy? We're not going to agree. And I would say it's been nice disagreeing with you, but it hasn't. Your arguments are just as irrational and illogical as they were the day you said you think it would be just fine and you'd totally get away with killing a Templar Knight-Captain in your uncle's home, despite all evidence to the contrary and despite your grown sister's wish for you to stay the hell out of it. 

I said Hawke should Bethany and leave Kirkwall. I also said enough people die in Kirkwall that it wouldn't likely be as black and white as you're making it out to be, especially if Ser Thrask helped. Regardless of Thrask's involvement, I honestly don't see what's irrational about wanting to protect your sister from a place where people like her are getting raped, tortured, and made tranquil against Chantry law. Are you forgetting what happens to Alain, Karl, and what nearly happened to Ella?

Monica21 wrote...

Yes, I do like Cullen. I think he's a reasonable Templar. But that doesn't have anything to do with what I think about killing a Knight-Captain. If Alrik was the one to take Bethany away, it would be just as stupid to try and kill him, and for the exact reasons I've already stated.

Protecting Bethany (or trying to) isn't stupid, especially when Hawke knows the dangers that she would face if she becomes a Circle mage.

[IanPolaris]

rak72 wrote...

People get raped in prison all the time, so are you trying to say that all officers arresting a fugitive should be mowed down by said fugitive's family.

Actually arresting officers expect resistance and even hostility from family members of fugitives and very seldom is legal action taken against them for that.  Just saying.

-Polaris

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...
Yes it is considering that there are 14 circles outside of Tevinter and you only list eleven.  We know that Orlais has several circles and Antiva and Nevarra have at least two.  The Free Marches do count as a nation for this argument because that's how the Chantry handles/treats is for administrative purposes.  IIRC the game explicitly states that Orlais (for example) has several and that Fereldan was unique in only having one (although Rivain is an obvious and touchy case that may be an exception).

I took the list from the wiki page of known circles. I left out the two in Tevinter and Orzammar. That's three circles I didn't include. Three plus eleven is fourteen. Are you sure you're not confusing the ones I left out (and noted I left out) with the circles under the control of the White Divine? If not, then let us know where the other circles in Orlais are, if you would, instead of just stating it. And please provide a reference. 

The Free Marches do not count as a nation as you described them. You said "there are multiple circle towers in each nation." The evidence I have proves that is not the case, and the Free Marches still do not count as a nation under your own definition. They are described as "a collection of independent city-states" and likely have one Grand Cleric only because of proximity. If you want to change the definition to "Chantry administrative purposes" then please let the rest of us know beforehand.

And none of this has anything to do with who has the authority to call an RoA in Kirkwall.