585 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

You know what, mage-freedom-at-any-cost guy? We're not going to agree. And I would say it's been nice disagreeing with you, but it hasn't. Your arguments are just as irrational and illogical as they were the day you said you think it would be just fine and you'd totally get away with killing a Templar Knight-Captain in your uncle's home, despite all evidence to the contrary and despite your grown sister's wish for you to stay the hell out of it. 

I said Hawke should Bethany and leave Kirkwall. I also said enough people die in Kirkwall that it wouldn't likely be as black and white as you're making it out to be, especially if Ser Thrask helped. Regardless of Thrask's involvement, I honestly don't see what's irrational about wanting to protect your sister from a place where people like her are getting raped, tortured, and made tranquil against Chantry law. Are you forgetting what happens to Alain, Karl, and what nearly happened to Ella?

Monica21 wrote...

Yes, I do like Cullen. I think he's a reasonable Templar. But that doesn't have anything to do with what I think about killing a Knight-Captain. If Alrik was the one to take Bethany away, it would be just as stupid to try and kill him, and for the exact reasons I've already stated.

Protecting Bethany (or trying to) isn't stupid, especially when Hawke knows the dangers that she would face if she becomes a Circle mage.

I never said trying to protect Bethany is stupid. I said that they way you're going about doing it is stupid.

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually arresting officers expect resistance and even hostility from family members of fugitives and very seldom is legal action taken against them for that.  Just saying.

-Polaris

I'm pretty sure they take legal action if said officer is killed trying to arrest a fugitive, which is what Lob is advocating.

[rak72]

IanPolaris wrote...

rak72 wrote...

People get raped in prison all the time, so are you trying to say that all officers arresting a fugitive should be mowed down by said fugitive's family.

Actually arresting officers expect resistance and even hostility from family members of fugitives and very seldom is legal action taken against them for that.  Just saying.

-Polaris

Very true, but I don't think most people would say it is justified.

[LobselVith8]

rak72 wrote...

People get raped in prison all the time, so are you trying to say that all officers arresting a fugitive should be mowed down by said fugitive's family.

When said "officers" are arresting the person because of how the person was born, and not because they committed any actual crime? And said prisoners are at risk from being given a lobotomy despite it being against the law?

[IanPolaris]

Monica21 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually arresting officers expect resistance and even hostility from family members of fugitives and very seldom is legal action taken against them for that.  Just saying.

-Polaris

I'm pretty sure they take legal action if said officer is killed trying to arrest a fugitive, which is what Lob is advocating.

Not even then necessarily.  If there is a Ruby Ridge style firefight, then prosecutions are unlikely (self defense defense argument would make a conviction unlikely at best and most DAs I've ever heard of would let it stand).

-Polaris

[rak72]

Innocent people get arrested all the time, should we still kill those arresting officers?

[LobselVith8]

rak72 wrote...

Innocent people get arrested all the time, should we still kill those arresting officers?

Because Hawke might care more about Bethany than he would about Cullen, especially given the risks that Bethany faces. Kill Cullen and protect Bethany from possibly ending up as a tranquil mage.

It's no different than killing Leliana if Hawke thinks that she'll recommend to the Divine that she should pursue an Exalted March against Kirkwall.

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...
When said "officers" are arresting the person because of how the person was born, and not because they committed any actual crime? And said prisoners are at risk from being given a lobotomy despite it being against the law?

Bethany is not innocent. She knows she's an apostate. She knows that the law obliges her to be in a Circle. You are harboring her along with your mother and your uncle. Yes, she has committed a crime and the people who are keeping her from the Circle are doing the same thing. What about this don't you understand?

[esper]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
When said "officers" are arresting the person because of how the person was born, and not because they committed any actual crime? And said prisoners are at risk from being given a lobotomy despite it being against the law?

Bethany is not innocent. She knows she's an apostate. She knows that the law obliges her to be in a Circle. You are harboring her along with your mother and your uncle. Yes, she has committed a crime and the people who are keeping her from the Circle are doing the same thing. What about this don't you understand?

If the law said that my little brother should go to a prison just because he was stronger than the avarge person I would violently if necessary object to my brohter be taken away.  

[rak72]

Yea, killing Leliana is stoopid too (kind of like this thread)

[Monica21]

esper wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
When said "officers" are arresting the person because of how the person was born, and not because they committed any actual crime? And said prisoners are at risk from being given a lobotomy despite it being against the law?

Bethany is not innocent. She knows she's an apostate. She knows that the law obliges her to be in a Circle. You are harboring her along with your mother and your uncle. Yes, she has committed a crime and the people who are keeping her from the Circle are doing the same thing. What about this don't you understand?

If the law said that my little brother should go to a prison just because he was stronger than the avarge person I would violently if necessary object to my brohter be taken away.  

I don't care. Lob says that Bethany was not committing a crime and she was.

[IanPolaris]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
When said "officers" are arresting the person because of how the person was born, and not because they committed any actual crime? And said prisoners are at risk from being given a lobotomy despite it being against the law?

Bethany is not innocent. She knows she's an apostate. She knows that the law obliges her to be in a Circle. You are harboring her along with your mother and your uncle. Yes, she has committed a crime and the people who are keeping her from the Circle are doing the same thing. What about this don't you understand?

Because the law itself is unjust.  It violates Bethany's and other mages' basic human rights (and yes that concept does exist in Thedas).  Resisting an unjust law is morally permissable and by some standards even required, even if it means defending you and your family to the death.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Monica21 wrote...

esper wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
When said "officers" are arresting the person because of how the person was born, and not because they committed any actual crime? And said prisoners are at risk from being given a lobotomy despite it being against the law?

Bethany is not innocent. She knows she's an apostate. She knows that the law obliges her to be in a Circle. You are harboring her along with your mother and your uncle. Yes, she has committed a crime and the people who are keeping her from the Circle are doing the same thing. What about this don't you understand?

If the law said that my little brother should go to a prison just because he was stronger than the avarge person I would violently if necessary object to my brohter be taken away.  

I don't care. Lob says that Bethany was not committing a crime and she was.

It is not a crime to disobey a morally unjust law.  In fact you are required to do so.  See Nuremberg.

-Polaris

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

esper wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
When said "officers" are arresting the person because of how the person was born, and not because they committed any actual crime? And said prisoners are at risk from being given a lobotomy despite it being against the law?

Bethany is not innocent. She knows she's an apostate. She knows that the law obliges her to be in a Circle. You are harboring her along with your mother and your uncle. Yes, she has committed a crime and the people who are keeping her from the Circle are doing the same thing. What about this don't you understand?

If the law said that my little brother should go to a prison just because he was stronger than the avarge person I would violently if necessary object to my brohter be taken away.  

I don't care. Lob says that Bethany was not committing a crime and she was.

It is not a crime to disobey a morally unjust law.  In fact you are required to do so.  See Nuremberg.

-Polaris

The Nuremberg trials in Thedas? Point me to them! Oh wait, you can't. 

[esper]

Monica21 wrote...

esper wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
When said "officers" are arresting the person because of how the person was born, and not because they committed any actual crime? And said prisoners are at risk from being given a lobotomy despite it being against the law?

Bethany is not innocent. She knows she's an apostate. She knows that the law obliges her to be in a Circle. You are harboring her along with your mother and your uncle. Yes, she has committed a crime and the people who are keeping her from the Circle are doing the same thing. What about this don't you understand?

If the law said that my little brother should go to a prison just because he was stronger than the avarge person I would violently if necessary object to my brohter be taken away.  

I don't care. Lob says that Bethany was not committing a crime and she was.

Well I care. Bethany is morally/ethically innocent because she has done nothing wrong. What I don't care about is that her mere exstince is a crime. Laws are not always right and in this case it would be more wrong if I failed to oppose it. 

[Wulfram]

Personally, I tend to assume there were more Templars waiting outside.  There isn't any actual evidence of this, but it helps explain why Hawke can't resist, and sending only two people to arrest an apostate seems rather reckless.

rak72 wrote...

Very true, but I don't think most people would say it is justified.

I think most people would say it depends on the police force.  People seem pretty supportive of people resisting the security forces of dictatorial regimes.

[Cobra's_back]

Nope, and I didn't want to kill her. She was one of my best characters in Dragon Age Origin. She got along well with Wynne. I played a mage Hawke and a mage Warden. In dragon age 2 although I supported the Underground Railroad, I knew there were some really bad blood mages out there. I believe that in Origin, Awakening and in Dragon Age 2 the writers give us enough information to know that some mages would make Ann Rice’s “Queen of the Damn” look like child’s play. Remember all the people they drained to fuel their power.

Leliana was investigating an extremist group in Kirkwall. I thought that one of them could have been feeding Anders information to get him to do something really stupid. The extremist want power and they really don’t care who they kill. Think of all the blood the Tevinter ancient magister lords drained. In the end of Legacy there is an amulet that you can give to Anders to prove the Tevinter ancient magisters created the darkspawn blight. The writer could use this to open up power blood mages that use hundreds of people to fuel their power. Think of a game that could gross you out and scare you.

It would rock!

[Monica21]

esper wrote...
Well I care. Bethany is morally/ethically innocent because she has done nothing wrong. What I don't care about is that her mere exstince is a crime. Laws are not always right and in this case it would be more wrong if I failed to oppose it. 

That's great. I care too. But she's still a criminal and so is Hawke. You're lucky the Templars don't arrest all of you. Her existence isn't criminal. The fact that she isn't in a Circle is what's criminal. Second, you're trying to inject modern day morals and ethics into a world that doesn't have them. It doesn't work like that. You can't create something in a fantasy setting that simply isn't there. This isn't a tabletop game where a DM philosophizes about human nature. It's a more restrictive platform and as such, there are laws. You don't get to decide whether you have to be beholden to those laws. The fact that you're playing the game means your character is beholden to the laws of the world in which he's playing. 

You can't appeal to a concept that doesn't exist anymore than you can land a helicopter on Gamlen's roof to escape.

[esper]

Monica21 wrote...


That's great. I care too. But she's still a criminal and so is Hawke. You're lucky the Templars don't arrest all of you. Her existence isn't criminal. The fact that she isn't in a Circle is what's criminal. Second, you're trying to inject modern day morals and ethics into a world that doesn't have them. It doesn't work like that. You can't create something in a fantasy setting that simply isn't there. This isn't a tabletop game where a DM philosophizes about human nature. It's a more restrictive platform and as such, there are laws. You don't get to decide whether you have to be beholden to those laws. The fact that you're playing the game means your character is beholden to the laws of the world in which he's playing. 

You can't appeal to a concept that doesn't exist anymore than you can land a helicopter on Gamlen's roof to escape.

The very fact that 'rightousness' of the laws are the main focus on the game means that I can apply whatever morals standard I wish to them. The laws about mages are up for debate. That means I have to make the moral stance regarding to what I think is most right. I couldn't do that in da:o, but I sure can do it in da2. It even paid off, I stood with a nice rebellion at the end of the game. (That I would have stood with the same rebellion if I had been an keeper of order, is not the issue here).

I never denied the fact that Hawke is a criminal. So is the warden. So will every protagonist in a bioware game be, unless taking the laws into your own hand suddenly becomes legal. (Shepard might not be actually, because of the spectre status.) 

But the game asks us to take a stance about what we think is right in the situation.

[Wulfram]

The Warden isn't a criminal. Well, they don't have to be.

[esper]

Wulfram wrote...

The Warden isn't a criminal. Well, they don't have to be.

The Warden is sheltring a non-warden apostate at least for a little while. (Morrigan).

Also I forgot: There is the origins stories in which everyone, but Cousland and Dwarven Noble commits a crime.

Also killing Rendon Howe is a crime since he is Arl of Denerim and you break into his house. (I am not opposed to kill him). I know you do it to free Anora, but she is in house arrest not in a proveable mortal danger and such breaking in an killing Howe is a crime.

Modifié par esper, 25 septembre 2011 - 08:54 .

[Wulfram]

esper wrote...

The Warden is sheltring a non-warden apostate at least for a little while. (Morrigan).

Sheltering?  I was merely accompanying her to the Circle, whereupon I informed the proper authorities.

(I've never actually done that, but it is possible.  Interestingly, Greagoir tries his best to discourage you)

edit:  The Dalish Elf doesn't commit any crimes, nor does the Mage if he's acting on Irving's orders.  In a fair trial, the City Elf, particularly the female one, would have a pretty decent defence since they were acting in defence of themselves or others.

Acting in defence of the Queen and upon her orders is surely no crime.  Or if you don't recognise her as Queen, I'm sure you could get the rightful King to authorise your actions.

Modifié par Wulfram, 25 septembre 2011 - 09:01 .

[esper]

Wulfram wrote...

esper wrote...

The Warden is sheltring a non-warden apostate at least for a little while. (Morrigan).

Sheltering?  I was merely accompanying her to the Circle, whereupon I informed the proper authorities.

(I've never actually done that, but it is possible.  Interestingly, Greagoir tries his best to discourage you)

Fair enough, I wasn't aware that you could do that. (Seems a bit suicidal.) Both it still doens't remove the crime of the Origins stories and the killing of Rendon Howe. If I think it through I could properly find more examples, both I am too tired to think of every little thing.

[Zanallen]

esper wrote...

If the law said that my little brother should go to a prison just because he was stronger than the avarge person I would violently if necessary object to my brohter be taken away.  

That isn't the law at all. In this situation, your brother would be under the constant threat of going nuts and killing everyone around him.

[Cobra's_back]

LobselVith8 - I think you're off base. Leliana wouldn't be considered in modern times a police officer. The Templars and Mages are about to go to War. She would be considered secret service. She wouldn't get involved in your little sister's affair unless she is part of the group fueling the war. My guess is that your sister could become a victim. Look what happen to Hawke's mom. Think about the Civil War. There were intelligence groups on both sides not interested in the civilian.
Think after the Civil War and the start of the KKK. The KKK were so numerous that they were police officer, judges and politician. Our FBI studied them extensively before making a move on them. My point is that agents don’t war against civilian. The Templar soldiers and Mages will be killing many civilians.
Leliana is also a Bard which makes her an excellent agent. She is in such a great position to play a killer role in DA3.