585 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Zanallen wrote...

esper wrote...

If the law said that my little brother should go to a prison just because he was stronger than the avarge person I would violently if necessary object to my brohter be taken away.  

That isn't the law at all. In this situation, your brother would be under the constant threat of going nuts and killing everyone around him.

But he is not nut  yet, and there extis people with his strenght in the world who never went nut, so no I wouldn't let them take him and I would oppose them with any mean necessary. 

[esper]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

LobselVith8 - I think you're off base. Leliana wouldn't be considered in modern times a police officer. The Templars and Mages are about to go to War. She would be considered secret service. She wouldn't get involved in your little sister's affair unless she is part of the group fueling the war. My guess is that your sister could become a victim. Look what happen to Hawke's mom. Think about the Civil War. There were intelligence groups on both sides not interested in the civilian.
Think after the Civil War and the start of the KKK. The KKK were so numerous that they were police officer, judges and politician. Our FBI studied them extensively before making a move on them. My point is that agents don’t war against civilian. The Templar soldiers and Mages will be killing many civilians.
Leliana is also a Bard which makes her an excellent agent. She is in such a great position to play a killer role in DA3.

We are discussing the templars with the direct police connection and I sure hope that FBI is better than Leliana or America/USa is in deep trouble.

[Zanallen]

esper wrote...

But he is not nut  yet, and there extis people with his strenght in the world who never went nut, so no I wouldn't let them take him and I would oppose them with any mean necessary. 

But he is a constant threat to those around him. By hiding him from the law, you are putting everyone near him at risk. If he goes nuts, you would then be responsible for all the deaths he causes.

[Cobra's_back]

Esper- Do you really think the writers will bring back Leliana so that she can mow down a much of civilian? They would have to be lame. What was the point in Leliana’s song if not to show that she is a talented Bard. There are numerous soldiers but only a few can be great spies. I am sure until proven otherwise that her role as a seeker is intelligence.

[Heimdall]

I see the topic of conversation moved back to Leliana? Okay.

Killing her would be more likely to speed an Exalted March than delay one. If Hawke killed her in an attempt to stop an Exalted March, he/she is an idiot.

And with that, I am gone.

[Cobra's_back]

Lord Aesir - You hit it on the nail. They would be an idiot.

[esper]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Esper- Do you really think the writers will bring back Leliana so that she can mow down a much of civilian? They would have to be lame. What was the point in Leliana’s song if not to show that she is a talented Bard. There are numerous soldiers but only a few can be great spies. I am sure until proven otherwise that her role as a seeker is intelligence.

No, I don't think that Leliana wants an exalthed march, but that is because I know Leliana from da:o too. My Hawke doesn't and saw a chantry sister, making vague threats that she thanks to Elthina thought hinted at an exalted march. I have said many times that I would much rather want a clarification option in the Leliana meeting than a kill her option, and only truely want the kill her option if she had confirmed the exalthed march after the clarification (which I think she don't confirms)

Leliana is a bad spy. A good spy would never have come to the conclusion that the resolutionists were the main threat in Kirkwall. A good spy would have researched Meridith, Orsino and Hawke.
Of course there is the possibleity that Leliana lied to Hawke, but if you lie to an armed person who (if Hawke is pro-mage) might just not be totally pro- your organisation, you don't tell them that the group they are related by genetict are involved. Yes, Leliana has reasons to think that Hawke is sent by Elthina, but Hawke is the local celebrity and my Hawke sided with Orsino 100 %. If Leliana had only done superficial works she can't know that my Hawke isn´t a part of the resolutionst and shouldn't take the chance by blaming the resolutionist and she did proper research she would know that my Hawke is anti-chantry. Also a good spy don't come with vague threats about a city in front of the city's acclaimed protector. As a part of the Chantry and a bard Leliana should know that people jumps to the exalthed march conclusion pretty quickly if the military and chantry are brought together. A good spy's first responsibility is too get the information back safely to the one they are spying for. In Leliana's case that means she has to live because all her informtation is properly stored in her head.

Also Leliana is Cassandra's superior and Cassadra seems to be under the impression that Hawke purposely ventured into the Deep Roads to get the idol which she then used to get Meridith possessed. Also Cassandra thought that Hawke somehow was behind the qunari attack so she could gain the title of champion. I know Hawke is awesome in Varrics stories, but believing such a feat is possible is idiotic and doesn't bode well for the Seeker's informtation gathering power. I can understand the chantry being under the impression that Hawke was behind the bomb and the rebellion. My Hawke lived with Anders and was a mage as well, that fail conclusion was very likely to come to, but all the rest Cassandra seemed to think about Hawke is just idiotict.

The only conclusion I can come to is that Leliana is very bad at being a spy/bard.

[esper]

Zanallen wrote...

esper wrote...

But he is not nut  yet, and there extis people with his strenght in the world who never went nut, so no I wouldn't let them take him and I would oppose them with any mean necessary. 

But he is a constant threat to those around him. By hiding him from the law, you are putting everyone near him at risk. If he goes nuts, you would then be responsible for all the deaths he causes.

I would take those deaths on me then. They would fully be on me. 
I don't care for might be a murder, he isn't at the moment and thus I won't allow imprisoment of him. Not when the chance that he might not go crazy exits. I value the might not over the might.
It is that simple. 

[Zanallen]

esper wrote...

I would take those deaths on me then. They would fully be on me. 
I don't care for might be a murder, he isn't at the moment and thus I won't allow imprisoment of him. Not when the chance that he might not go crazy exits. I value the might not over the might.
It is that simple. 

That is certainly one way of looking at it. However, I am willing to bet that the majority of the people would prefer feeling safe over your brother's well being.

[TJPags]

You all do realize that resisting arrest is actually its own crime, right?  As is harboring a fugitive?  Obstructing justice?

Even an innocent person can be charged with resisting arrest if they do, in fact, resist arrest.

Harboring a person under an arrest warrant can also result in criminal charges, even if the person is eventually found innocent.

As can stepping in to prevent the arrest of someone under warrant, again even if they turn out to be found innocent.

While I agree that unjust laws need to be changed, its not the smartest thing in the world to do so by resisting arrest, harboring a fugitive, and obstructing justice.

As to Meredith, thank you to Monica for clearing up Tower locations.  It seems every time we find the actual information, it rips a bit more ground away from certain arguments.  At this point, they stand only by the grace of twisted arguments made around twisted facts and distorted truths.

[rak72]

TJPags wrote...

You all do realize that resisting arrest is actually its own crime, right?  As is harboring a fugitive?  Obstructing justice?

Even an innocent person can be charged with resisting arrest if they do, in fact, resist arrest.

Harboring a person under an arrest warrant can also result in criminal charges, even if the person is eventually found innocent.

As can stepping in to prevent the arrest of someone under warrant, again even if they turn out to be found innocent.

While I agree that unjust laws need to be changed, its not the smartest thing in the world to do so by resisting arrest, harboring a fugitive, and obstructing justice.

As to Meredith, thank you to Monica for clearing up Tower locations.  It seems every time we find the actual information, it rips a bit more ground away from certain arguments.  At this point, they stand only by the grace of twisted arguments made around twisted facts and distorted truths.

Don't forget the murder of the Knight Captian, too

[Xilizhra]

TJPags wrote...

You all do realize that resisting arrest is actually its own crime, right?  As is harboring a fugitive?  Obstructing justice?

Even an innocent person can be charged with resisting arrest if they do, in fact, resist arrest.

Harboring a person under an arrest warrant can also result in criminal charges, even if the person is eventually found innocent.

As can stepping in to prevent the arrest of someone under warrant, again even if they turn out to be found innocent.

While I agree that unjust laws need to be changed, its not the smartest thing in the world to do so by resisting arrest, harboring a fugitive, and obstructing justice.

As to Meredith, thank you to Monica for clearing up Tower locations.  It seems every time we find the actual information, it rips a bit more ground away from certain arguments.  At this point, they stand only by the grace of twisted arguments made around twisted facts and distorted truths.

Not when you're that powerless, admittedly. Luckily, Hawke gets a chance to pay them back for all this and more.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Just a stray thought (since I've noticed it being argued here). Where specifically is it stated that there is only one Grand Cleric per country?
It would seem more likely that there are actually 14 Grand Clerics in total (one Circle for each Grand Cleric), or the far more likely: Thirteen Grand Clerics, with the 14th Circle being governed by the Divine herself.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 25 septembre 2011 - 11:01 .

[Monica21]

rak72 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

You all do realize that resisting arrest is actually its own crime, right?  As is harboring a fugitive?  Obstructing justice?

Even an innocent person can be charged with resisting arrest if they do, in fact, resist arrest.

Harboring a person under an arrest warrant can also result in criminal charges, even if the person is eventually found innocent.

As can stepping in to prevent the arrest of someone under warrant, again even if they turn out to be found innocent.

While I agree that unjust laws need to be changed, its not the smartest thing in the world to do so by resisting arrest, harboring a fugitive, and obstructing justice.

As to Meredith, thank you to Monica for clearing up Tower locations.  It seems every time we find the actual information, it rips a bit more ground away from certain arguments.  At this point, they stand only by the grace of twisted arguments made around twisted facts and distorted truths.

Don't forget the murder of the Knight Captian, too

And I would've gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!

[EmperorSahlertz]

Monica21 wrote...

rak72 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

You all do realize that resisting arrest is actually its own crime, right?  As is harboring a fugitive?  Obstructing justice?

Even an innocent person can be charged with resisting arrest if they do, in fact, resist arrest.

Harboring a person under an arrest warrant can also result in criminal charges, even if the person is eventually found innocent.

As can stepping in to prevent the arrest of someone under warrant, again even if they turn out to be found innocent.

While I agree that unjust laws need to be changed, its not the smartest thing in the world to do so by resisting arrest, harboring a fugitive, and obstructing justice.

As to Meredith, thank you to Monica for clearing up Tower locations.  It seems every time we find the actual information, it rips a bit more ground away from certain arguments.  At this point, they stand only by the grace of twisted arguments made around twisted facts and distorted truths.

Don't forget the murder of the Knight Captian, too

And I would've gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!

And their stupid dog!

[Monica21]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Just a stray thought (since I've noticed it being argued here). Where specifically is it stated that there is only one Grand Cleric per country?
It would seem more likely that there are actually 14 Grand Clerics in total (one Circle for each Grand Cleric), or the far more likely: Thirteen Grand Clerics, with the 14th Circle being governed by the Divine herself.

Here's the wiki entry on Grand Clerics: http://dragonage.wik...ki/Grand_Cleric 

So there are Grand Clerics in the following countries, with the Free Marches being kind of an exception:
Fereldan
Antiva
Rivain
Nevarra
Anderfels
Free Marches

Modifié par Monica21, 25 septembre 2011 - 11:08 .

[Cobra's_back]

esper- I don't agree with you saying she is a bad spy. Nothing in the game stated that she was there to chase Meridith or Orsino. I don’t think she was there to end the feud. She had already gathered information concerning Elthina. She was assigned to warn Elthina and not watch over her. As for Cassadra, she was fishing for information. This is what a seeker does.
I didn’t expect them to tell Varric everything they knew. Meridith, Anders and Orsino were just pawns. Anders had been getting information from a network. This network may have fueled his fire. Leliana needed to deliver a message. She set a trap to get rid of a few members from this network she knew would show up. My mage Hawke killed the blood mages that arrived. These blood mages were part of a bigger group. Leliana finished her job when she delivered the message to Elthina. The writers have the room to bring Leliana back to investigate this group further. As far as I’m concern, If Anders failed his mission, someone else would have been used.
It may be that DA3 doesn’t want to use Hawke, because Hawke was too stupid to figure out what was going on.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Monica21 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Just a stray thought (since I've noticed it being argued here). Where specifically is it stated that there is only one Grand Cleric per country?
It would seem more likely that there are actually 14 Grand Clerics in total (one Circle for each Grand Cleric), or the far more likely: Thirteen Grand Clerics, with the 14th Circle being governed by the Divine herself.

Here's the wiki entry on Grand Clerics: http://dragonage.wik...ki/Grand_Cleric 

So there are Grand Clerics in the following countries, with the Free Marches being kind of an exception:
Fereldan
Antiva
Rivain
Nevarra
Anderfels
Free Marches

That page holds no references, and the few codex entries I have read, makes no mention of there being specifically one Grand Cleric per coutnry. All they say about the Grand Cleric actually, is that they are the second highest rank within the Chantry.

[Heimdall]

esper wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Esper- Do you really think the writers will bring back Leliana so that she can mow down a much of civilian? They would have to be lame. What was the point in Leliana’s song if not to show that she is a talented Bard. There are numerous soldiers but only a few can be great spies. I am sure until proven otherwise that her role as a seeker is intelligence.

No, I don't think that Leliana wants an exalthed march, but that is because I know Leliana from da:o too. My Hawke doesn't and saw a chantry sister, making vague threats that she thanks to Elthina thought hinted at an exalted march. I have said many times that I would much rather want a clarification option in the Leliana meeting than a kill her option, and only truely want the kill her option if she had confirmed the exalthed march after the clarification (which I think she don't confirms)

Leliana is a bad spy. A good spy would never have come to the conclusion that the resolutionists were the main threat in Kirkwall. A good spy would have researched Meridith, Orsino and Hawke.
Of course there is the possibleity that Leliana lied to Hawke, but if you lie to an armed person who (if Hawke is pro-mage) might just not be totally pro- your organisation, you don't tell them that the group they are related by genetict are involved. Yes, Leliana has reasons to think that Hawke is sent by Elthina, but Hawke is the local celebrity and my Hawke sided with Orsino 100 %. If Leliana had only done superficial works she can't know that my Hawke isn´t a part of the resolutionst and shouldn't take the chance by blaming the resolutionist and she did proper research she would know that my Hawke is anti-chantry. Also a good spy don't come with vague threats about a city in front of the city's acclaimed protector. As a part of the Chantry and a bard Leliana should know that people jumps to the exalthed march conclusion pretty quickly if the military and chantry are brought together. A good spy's first responsibility is too get the information back safely to the one they are spying for. In Leliana's case that means she has to live because all her informtation is properly stored in her head.

Also Leliana is Cassandra's superior and Cassadra seems to be under the impression that Hawke purposely ventured into the Deep Roads to get the idol which she then used to get Meridith possessed. Also Cassandra thought that Hawke somehow was behind the qunari attack so she could gain the title of champion. I know Hawke is awesome in Varrics stories, but believing such a feat is possible is idiotic and doesn't bode well for the Seeker's informtation gathering power. I can understand the chantry being under the impression that Hawke was behind the bomb and the rebellion. My Hawke lived with Anders and was a mage as well, that fail conclusion was very likely to come to, but all the rest Cassandra seemed to think about Hawke is just idiotict.

The only conclusion I can come to is that Leliana is very bad at being a spy/bard.

  I've written extensive posts detailing why you're wrong about Leliana's conclusions, but I said I wouldn't come back to this thread.  So I think I'll just point you towards page 13, or 12, 11, thereabouts.

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...
Edit PS:  I notice that your own list shows at least two circles for Nevarra and Antiva which invalidates your entire post.  Look things up indeed.....

Er, wait, what? It has two circles in Nevarra and one in Antiva. If you're talking about Ansburg, it explicitely states that it's between the Free Marches and Antiva, therefore in neither country. And yes, there are two in Nevarra. So? How does that invalidate my post? I said that the only nation with more than one Circle is Nevarra, and according to that list, I'm still right.

[Monica21]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That page holds no references, and the few codex entries I have read, makes no mention of there being specifically one Grand Cleric per coutnry. All they say about the Grand Cleric actually, is that they are the second highest rank within the Chantry.

Could be that it's from a load screen. I did see a load screen today that said there were fourteen circles excluding those in Tevinter, validating Ian's position. There's just no mention of the additional three.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I know about the Circles, being 14 in number. I'm asking about wether or not there are only one Grand Cleric per country, which I find unlikely.

[Heimdall]

We know there was one grand cleric for all of Ferelden, I don't believe it's been explicitly stated that there is one per country per say, but we tend to take that as precedence.

This time, I promise I'm not coming back to this thread, really.

[Cobra's_back]

Lord Aesir - I read your information on page 12. It was very detailed excellent. I like Leliana and thought she was sent to warn the Grand Cleric. I didn't see this as her fault. I thought she was taking her orders from the Grand Cathedral of Val Royeaux. If Leliana was told to check out the Resolutionist group then she got her orders from the Grand Cathedral of Val Royeaux. It is also clear from your page 12 that the Grand Cleric couldn’t do her job anymore.
Having said that I still think our stupid Anders was being used. Yes, the writer don’t mention this group until Act 3, but the writing in this game hasn’t been the greatest anyway. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Resolutionist were in the background causing trouble and fueling the fire. I was thinking we might see them in DA3.

[K_Tabris]

The OP wants to kill Leliana, for being a 'dangerous antagonist'. Sister Nightengale was actualy there to evaluate the situation, not to resolve it. As Leliana did not pose an actual threat in her short cameo, I think it's silly to want to have the option to eliminate her as a threat.

It was awesome seeing one of the best characters reprise a role, albeit, a small one.

Modifié par NovinhaShepard, 26 septembre 2011 - 12:56 .