585 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Must resist...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Lord Aesir - I read your information on page 12. It was very detailed excellent. I like Leliana and thought she was sent to warn the Grand Cleric. I didn't see this as her fault. I thought she was taking her orders from the Grand Cathedral of Val Royeaux. If Leliana was told to check out the Resolutionist group then she got her orders from the Grand Cathedral of Val Royeaux. It is also clear from your page 12 that the Grand Cleric couldn’t do her job anymore.
Having said that I still think our stupid Anders was being used. Yes, the writer don’t mention this group until Act 3, but the writing in this game hasn’t been the greatest anyway. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Resolutionist were in the background causing trouble and fueling the fire. I was thinking we might see them in DA3.

Thank you
I agree, that's quite possible.  The Resolutionists may have been using Anders. They may have been the ones that got them that bomb recipe in the first place.  I actually sort of hope they come out as one of the leading mage factions (Though surely there will be many) amongst the mages in DA3 and their involvment in Kirkwall will be clarified.
I broke my promise again

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 26 septembre 2011 - 01:44 .

[Dave of Canada]

Monica21 wrote...

Here's the wiki entry on Grand Clerics: http://dragonage.wik...ki/Grand_Cleric 

So there are Grand Clerics in the following countries, with the Free Marches being kind of an exception:
Fereldan
Antiva
Rivain
Nevarra
Anderfels
Free Marches

Could be possible, though Free Marches is difficult due to it's nature of being extremely diverse. I'd see the possibility of more than one Grand Cleric in the Free Marches alone due to the different people, cultures and such as people would identify themselves by city instead of nationality.

Unless we're supposed to assume Starkhaven's Templar would have to report to the Grand Cleric in Kirkwall despite the two (hypothetically) warring amongst themselves, which would be a little difficult.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 26 septembre 2011 - 02:06 .

[Heimdall]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Here's the wiki entry on Grand Clerics: http://dragonage.wik...ki/Grand_Cleric 

So there are Grand Clerics in the following countries, with the Free Marches being kind of an exception:
Fereldan
Antiva
Rivain
Nevarra
Anderfels
Free Marches

Could be possible, though Free Marches is difficult due to it's nature of being extremely diverse. I'd see the possibility of more than one Grand Cleric in the Free Marches alone due to the different people, cultures and such as people would identify themselves by city instead of nationality.

Unless we're supposed to assume Starkhaven's Templar would have to report to the Grand Cleric in Kirkwall despite the two (hypothetically) warring amongst themselves, which would be a little difficult.

Elthina's codex says that she is only the Grand Cleric of "everything south of Starkhaven and the Minanter River" in the Free Marches so it seems Starkhaven would fall under the the jurisdiction of a different Grand Cleric.

[Zanallen]

The Free Marches isn't a country per se and is actually a coalition of city-states, much like Greece back in the day. As such, it seems reasonable that there would be more than one Grand Cleric in charge of the various cities.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Im so illiterate, I always think of a swampy woods when I hear Free Marches.

[esper]

Zanallen wrote...

esper wrote...

I would take those deaths on me then. They would fully be on me. 
I don't care for might be a murder, he isn't at the moment and thus I won't allow imprisoment of him. Not when the chance that he might not go crazy exits. I value the might not over the might.
It is that simple. 

That is certainly one way of looking at it. However, I am willing to bet that the majority of the people would prefer feeling safe over your brother's well being.

Yes, because they don't have said theoretically brother they are related too. It is a lack of empathy. A: I only act if it were me. It is closing your eyes unless you get hit by the unjustice of it yourself.
Of course I don't have such a brother myself, because such a person doesn't exits in the real world. But there are some news laws in my country to fight terrorr and immegration that takes away some rights, none rights so crucial that I say that it ever warranted a violent resistance against them,  but it is a slippery rope. 

But I simply gets sick every time I hear that sacrificing the rights of a minority to give a sense of security to the majority is all right. Which in my opinion is what the mages and templars boils down to.    

[Zanallen]

esper wrote...

Yes, because they don't have said theoretically brother they are related too. It is a lack of empathy. A: I only act if it were me. It is closing your eyes unless you get hit by the unjustice of it yourself.
Of course I don't have such a brother myself, because such a person doesn't exits in the real world. But there are some news laws in my country to fight terrorr and immegration that takes away some rights, none rights so crucial that I say that it ever warranted a violent resistance against them,  but it is a slippery rope. 

But I simply gets sick every time I hear that sacrificing the rights of a minority to give a sense of security to the majority is all right. Which in my opinion is what the mages and templars boils down to.    

I wouldn't call it a lack of empathy. I would say it is a preference for personal safety and the safety of one's friends and family over the well being of strangers.

[esper]

Zanallen wrote...

esper wrote...

Yes, because they don't have said theoretically brother they are related too. It is a lack of empathy. A: I only act if it were me. It is closing your eyes unless you get hit by the unjustice of it yourself.
Of course I don't have such a brother myself, because such a person doesn't exits in the real world. But there are some news laws in my country to fight terrorr and immegration that takes away some rights, none rights so crucial that I say that it ever warranted a violent resistance against them,  but it is a slippery rope. 

But I simply gets sick every time I hear that sacrificing the rights of a minority to give a sense of security to the majority is all right. Which in my opinion is what the mages and templars boils down to.    

I wouldn't call it a lack of empathy. I would say it is a preference for personal safety and the safety of one's friends and family over the well being of strangers.

It is a lack of empaty because it is being incapable of thinking what if this happen to me? 7 out of 10 would protest if such a thing were to happen to their family or friends or themself. Very few would not resist an obvious unjustified law , simply because it is the law, if they were the one victimnized by the injustice. Of course very few would fight against the laws as well untill they were the ones hit by the law.  

[rak72]

esper wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

esper wrote...

Yes, because they don't have said theoretically brother they are related too. It is a lack of empathy. A: I only act if it were me. It is closing your eyes unless you get hit by the unjustice of it yourself.
Of course I don't have such a brother myself, because such a person doesn't exits in the real world. But there are some news laws in my country to fight terrorr and immegration that takes away some rights, none rights so crucial that I say that it ever warranted a violent resistance against them,  but it is a slippery rope. 

But I simply gets sick every time I hear that sacrificing the rights of a minority to give a sense of security to the majority is all right. Which in my opinion is what the mages and templars boils down to.    

I wouldn't call it a lack of empathy. I would say it is a preference for personal safety and the safety of one's friends and family over the well being of strangers.

It is a lack of empaty because it is being incapable of thinking what if this happen to me? 7 out of 10 would protest if such a thing were to happen to their family or friends or themself. Very few would not resist an obvious unjustified law , simply because it is the law, if they were the one victimnized by the injustice. Of course very few would fight against the laws as well untill they were the ones hit by the law.  

Maybe you would be more for the law after your brother turned into an abomination an wipeed out an entitre village, including the rest of you family.

[esper]

rak72 wrote...

esper wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

esper wrote...

Yes, because they don't have said theoretically brother they are related too. It is a lack of empathy. A: I only act if it were me. It is closing your eyes unless you get hit by the unjustice of it yourself.
Of course I don't have such a brother myself, because such a person doesn't exits in the real world. But there are some news laws in my country to fight terrorr and immegration that takes away some rights, none rights so crucial that I say that it ever warranted a violent resistance against them,  but it is a slippery rope. 

But I simply gets sick every time I hear that sacrificing the rights of a minority to give a sense of security to the majority is all right. Which in my opinion is what the mages and templars boils down to.    

I wouldn't call it a lack of empathy. I would say it is a preference for personal safety and the safety of one's friends and family over the well being of strangers.

It is a lack of empaty because it is being incapable of thinking what if this happen to me? 7 out of 10 would protest if such a thing were to happen to their family or friends or themself. Very few would not resist an obvious unjustified law , simply because it is the law, if they were the one victimnized by the injustice. Of course very few would fight against the laws as well untill they were the ones hit by the law.  

Maybe you would be more for the law after your brother turned into an abomination an wipeed out an entitre village, including the rest of you family.

No, I wouldn't.

[rak72]

^ fair enough, and I wouldn't feel bad for my sister being taken away if it meant the safety of a few score people. That guy Finn (or whatever his name was from witch hunt) was quite happy in the Fereldan circle. It was a nice life where he could study and be with his friends and not worry about being burned at the stake.
Of course Anders had to be an ass in the Fereldan Circle too, and got a lot of freedoms taken away from the mages there. Not all circles are hell holes, and not all Templars are ser Arlik.

Modifié par rak72, 26 septembre 2011 - 01:28 .

[Xilizhra]

Of course Anders had to be an ass in the Fereldan Circle too, and got a lot of freedoms taken away from the mages there. Not all circles are hell holes, and not all Templars are ser Arlik.

Enough were that the system must be destroyed.

[rak72]

Xilizhra wrote...

Of course Anders had to be an ass in the Fereldan Circle too, and got a lot of freedoms taken away from the mages there. Not all circles are hell holes, and not all Templars are ser Arlik.

Enough were that the system must be destroyed.

You only know what was going on in Fereldan & Kirkwall

[Xilizhra]

rak72 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Of course Anders had to be an ass in the Fereldan Circle too, and got a lot of freedoms taken away from the mages there. Not all circles are hell holes, and not all Templars are ser Arlik.

Enough were that the system must be destroyed.

You only know what was going on in Fereldan & Kirkwall

I know that all of the Circles rebelled, given half the chance.

[esper]

Xilizhra wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Of course Anders had to be an ass in the Fereldan Circle too, and got a lot of freedoms taken away from the mages there. Not all circles are hell holes, and not all Templars are ser Arlik.

Enough were that the system must be destroyed.

You only know what was going on in Fereldan & Kirkwall

I know that all of the Circles rebelled, given half the chance.

Fereldan was supposed to be the 'best' most liberal circle under the White Divine. And that wasn't exactly a nice place.

[rak72]

^ well an abomination attack can make a place unpleasant

[esper]

I was thinking more in like of the mage origin story. Lest just say that my Surana was very, very happy to get out of that place.
But you and I fundemtally disagree on the mage issue so let take the thread back to Leliana.

[Herr Uhl]

esper wrote...

Fereldan was supposed to be the 'best' most liberal circle under the White Divine. And that wasn't exactly a nice place.

Where was this stated?

[esper]

Herr Uhl wrote...

esper wrote...

Fereldan was supposed to be the 'best' most liberal circle under the White Divine. And that wasn't exactly a nice place.

Where was this stated?

I think that Gaider stated it in some mage-issue thread a long time ago, but I no longer remember precisely where, sorry

[LobselVith8]

rak72 wrote...

^ well an abomination attack can make a place unpleasant

The protagonist from the Circle of Ferelden can address that it's unpleasant, and he grew up there. The Warden from the Magi Origin can tell Wynne that the Circle is a "prison" (as the Magi Origin VO does) and an "oppressive place," and Wynne never contests this. In fact, Wynne says that The Warden can return to the Circle (to a leadership position) and change it from being an oppressive place, given time (after she speaks with Aneirin).

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

rak72 wrote...

^ well an abomination attack can make a place unpleasant

The protagonist from the Circle of Ferelden can address that it's unpleasant, and he grew up there. The Warden from the Magi Origin can tell Wynne that the Circle is a "prison" (as the Magi Origin VO does) and an "oppressive place," and Wynne never contests this. In fact, Wynne says that The Warden can return to the Circle (to a leadership position) and change it from being an oppressive place, given time (after she speaks with Aneirin).

Being both First Enchanter and Arl of Amaranthine would be a major pain in the ass though. Im not sure that if hawke says he will lead the circle / be Teyrn of Gwaren or w/e is really canon since being Arl of Amaranthine or well... Dead can seriously restrict the ability to rule both those places

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

rak72 wrote...

^ well an abomination attack can make a place unpleasant

The protagonist from the Circle of Ferelden can address that it's unpleasant, and he grew up there. The Warden from the Magi Origin can tell Wynne that the Circle is a "prison" (as the Magi Origin VO does) and an "oppressive place," and Wynne never contests this. In fact, Wynne says that The Warden can return to the Circle (to a leadership position) and change it from being an oppressive place, given time (after she speaks with Aneirin).

It's been awhile since I've played a mage, but isn't this more "hey, Circles suck" rather than a direct attack against the Ferelden Circle?

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

rak72 wrote...

^ well an abomination attack can make a place unpleasant

The protagonist from the Circle of Ferelden can address that it's unpleasant, and he grew up there. The Warden from the Magi Origin can tell Wynne that the Circle is a "prison" (as the Magi Origin VO does) and an "oppressive place," and Wynne never contests this. In fact, Wynne says that The Warden can return to the Circle (to a leadership position) and change it from being an oppressive place, given time (after she speaks with Aneirin).

Being both First Enchanter and Arl of Amaranthine would be a major pain in the ass though. Im not sure that if hawke says he will lead the circle / be Teyrn of Gwaren or w/e is really canon since being Arl of Amaranthine or well... Dead can seriously restrict the ability to rule both those places

The Warden (from the Circle) can refuse Wynne if she recommends returning to the Circle. The Warden can also tell her that he (or she) wants to go back. The Warden can also ask Wynne why she doesn't return to fulfill this "dream" she has about the Circle of Ferelden. I'd never imagine my Surana Warden would return to the Circle of Ferelden and give up his freedom. If it's between the choice of having political power, having banns swear fealty to you, governing a city, being in command of an army, ruling over an arling, or being First Enchanter, I'd choose Arl of Amaranthine.

Even First Enchanter Irving (a moderate in mage politics) thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing the Circle of Ferelden and removing their "shackles" if the Hero asks the new ruler of Ferelden to emancipate the Circle from the Chantry and its Order of Templars (even though the Chantry said no according to Gaider and Meredith, which contradicts Origins' lack of an independent Circle of Orzammar Epilogue slide with the Magi Boon flag). Clearly, The Warden isn't the only one who wasn't pleased with the Chantry controlled Circle of Ferelden.

Speaking of Origins, I feel like Leliana and 'Sister Nightingale' are two different people, personality wise, even though I know they are supposed to be the same person. When I watch the scene where Leliana asks The Warden not to kill Loghain's men, where she recommends that a blood mage find sanctuary in the Chantry, or how she initially doesn't want to kill her mentor, it stands in contrast to the person who seems to simply advise Hawke to get one person out of harm's way when a possible Exalted March can be declared on the city. It doesn't feel like the same person. Aside from having the same voice actor, I never feel like the 'Sister Nightingale' who greets Hawke is the same person who travelled with The Warden in Ferelden.

NovinhaShepard wrote...

The OP wants to kill Leliana, for being a 'dangerous antagonist'. Sister Nightengale was actualy there to evaluate the situation, not to resolve it. As Leliana did not pose an actual threat in her short cameo, I think it's silly to want to have the option to eliminate her as a threat.

It was awesome seeing one of the best characters reprise a role, albeit, a small one.

It's my personal opinion, of course. I certainly don't claim that it's the only option to have about Leliana's scene in "Faith," but I inferred from the scene that she was going to recommend an Exalted March to the Divine even though she admits she doesn't actually know who is behind the unrest. As Sister Nightingale, she specifically states that they "may be" responsible, not that the group actually is responsible. The fact that the narrative informs us that mages and templars are upset about Meredith specifically, who is apparently talking to herself in her office, and nobles and commoners will rally around Hawke if the Champion publicly opposes her dictatorship, makes me wonder how informed she actually was about the situation.

If Leliana clarified her position and said she wouldn't recommend an Exalted March, then I would agree with you about not killing her. If she clarified her position and said she would recommend an attack against the city, then I think she should be killed. As it stands, it seemed to me like Leliana was going to support an Exalted March in her report to Divine Justina V. I'd prefer to air on the side of caution when an entire city is at stake, especially when the protagonist and his lover lives in this specific city.

[Monica21]

esper wrote...
It is a lack of empaty because it is being incapable of thinking what if this happen to me? 7 out of 10 would protest if such a thing were to happen to their family or friends or themself. Very few would not resist an obvious unjustified law , simply because it is the law, if they were the one victimnized by the injustice. Of course very few would fight against the laws as well untill they were the ones hit by the law.  

Where did you get this number?

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

rak72 wrote...

^ well an abomination attack can make a place unpleasant

The protagonist from the Circle of Ferelden can address that it's unpleasant, and he grew up there. The Warden from the Magi Origin can tell Wynne that the Circle is a "prison" (as the Magi Origin VO does) and an "oppressive place," and Wynne never contests this. In fact, Wynne says that The Warden can return to the Circle (to a leadership position) and change it from being an oppressive place, given time (after she speaks with Aneirin).

It's been awhile since I've played a mage, but isn't this more "hey, Circles suck" rather than a direct attack against the Ferelden Circle?

It's addressing that the Chantry controlled Circle of Ferelden is a 'prison' and an 'oppressive place.' It's clearly a direct attack against the Circle of Ferelden if the protagonist views it as oppressive, given that he's lived there most of his life (according to the Magi Origin VO and what the protagonist can say to the elven apprentice). The protagonist can clearly see the Circle of Ferelden as an unpleasant place prior to the rebellion lead by Uldred, even agreeing with the unnamed blood mage in "A Broken Circle" about living under the templars. Even a member of the moderate group, Wynne, doesn't disagree with The Warden's claim that it's an "oppressive place."