585 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

If you're going to use the Warden's words for "Circles suck", don't dismiss that you can actually be a loyalist who loves the Circle. A Warden who hates the Circle and calls it a prison has no different experiences than the Warden who says they love it other than the player's head canon.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 26 septembre 2011 - 05:05 .

[Wulfram]

Dave of Canada wrote...

If you're going to use the Warden's words for "Circles suck", don't dismiss that you can actually be a loyalist who loves the Circle. A Warden who hates the Circle and calls it a prison has no different experiences than the Warden who says they love it other than the player's head canon.

That Wynne, who is hardly a dyed-in-the-wool rebel, doesn't really quibble with the description is pretty revealing though.

[RagingCyclone]

Wulfram wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

If you're going to use the Warden's words for "Circles suck", don't dismiss that you can actually be a loyalist who loves the Circle. A Warden who hates the Circle and calls it a prison has no different experiences than the Warden who says they love it other than the player's head canon.

That Wynne, who is hardly a dyed-in-the-wool rebel, doesn't really quibble with the description is pretty revealing though.

Actually Wynne is agreeable either way. She really doesn't have a set opinion from what I can tell.

[Monica21]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

If you're going to use the Warden's words for "Circles suck", don't dismiss that you can actually be a loyalist who loves the Circle. A Warden who hates the Circle and calls it a prison has no different experiences than the Warden who says they love it other than the player's head canon.

That Wynne, who is hardly a dyed-in-the-wool rebel, doesn't really quibble with the description is pretty revealing though.

Actually Wynne is agreeable either way. She really doesn't have a set opinion from what I can tell.

Wynne seems to be rather lenient on the Warden's views of the Circle, given that she went through her own issues with it.

[phaonica]

Whatever Wynne thinks, she's still just one person and hardly speaks for the entire Circle. Same with a mage Warden.

[Xilizhra]

phaonica wrote...

Whatever Wynne thinks, she's still just one person and hardly speaks for the entire Circle. Same with a mage Warden.

Indeed, it's the universal Circle rebellions that speak loudest.

[Wulfram]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Actually Wynne is agreeable either way. She really doesn't have a set opinion from what I can tell.

Wynne does have a set opinion, but it's nuanced.  She sees the circle as a her home, and somewhere she can be with others like her, and loves it for that.  But she also sees it as oppressive and wishes it would change.  If the Warden is a City Elf, she compares it to the Alienage.  She believes the Templars are necessary, but resents their unnecessary cruelty

She is an Aequitarian, not a Loyalist or Libertarian.

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Whatever Wynne thinks, she's still just one person and hardly speaks for the entire Circle. Same with a mage Warden.

Indeed, it's the universal Circle rebellions that speak loudest.

I always interpretted those as the result of the Circle's realizing that they could all get killed in their beds without being guilty of anything, like Meredith tried to do.

[IanPolaris]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Whatever Wynne thinks, she's still just one person and hardly speaks for the entire Circle. Same with a mage Warden.

Indeed, it's the universal Circle rebellions that speak loudest.

I always interpretted those as the result of the Circle's realizing that they could all get killed in their beds without being guilty of anything, like Meredith tried to do.

I actually agree with you on this point.  It think it was the fact that Meredith who was clearly a fruit loop, and annulled a circle that even her own Knight Captain (who was hardly a softy on mages) didn't think needed to be annulled, with absolutely no consequence by the Chantry is what pushed the Circle over the edge.  If Meredith could do it (Right of Annulment) because she had a bad hair day, then there was no reason not to revolt against the Chantry.  Back any animal (or person) into a corner and they will fight.

-Polaris

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Whatever Wynne thinks, she's still just one person and hardly speaks for the entire Circle. Same with a mage Warden.

Indeed, it's the universal Circle rebellions that speak loudest.

I always interpretted those as the result of the Circle's realizing that they could all get killed in their beds without being guilty of anything, like Meredith tried to do.

I actually agree with you on this point.  It think it was the fact that Meredith who was clearly a fruit loop, and annulled a circle that even her own Knight Captain (who was hardly a softy on mages) didn't think needed to be annulled, with absolutely no consequence by the Chantry is what pushed the Circle over the edge.  If Meredith could do it (Right of Annulment) because she had a bad hair day, then there was no reason not to revolt against the Chantry.  Back any animal (or person) into a corner and they will fight.

-Polaris

This I can agree with.
I know I'd be ready to fight if I found out that some nutjob had tried to annull an entire Circle because of the actions of an Apostate.

That's like going "This criminal just murdered someone, therefore all criminals no matter their offense must die!!!!!!!"

[UltiPup]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

This I can agree with.
I know I'd be ready to fight if I found out that some nutjob had tried to annull an entire Circle because of the actions of an Apostate.

That's like going "This criminal just murdered someone, therefore all criminals no matter their offense must die!!!!!!!"

It is more like "this part of the leg is infected and since we cannot save it, we must amputate the whole leg tp save the body".

Modifié par UltiPup, 27 septembre 2011 - 02:26 .

[Follow Me on Twitter]

No, because my Hawke is not a psychopath.

[IanPolaris]

UltiPup wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

This I can agree with.
I know I'd be ready to fight if I found out that some nutjob had tried to annull an entire Circle because of the actions of an Apostate.

That's like going "This criminal just murdered someone, therefore all criminals no matter their offense must die!!!!!!!"

It is more like "this part of the leg is infected and since we cannot save it, we must amputate the whole leg tp save the body".

No, it's more like, "you have an ingrown toenail so let's amputate the leg".

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

Meredith legally ordered the Right of Annulment, but were I a first enchanter of one of the other circles, the first thing I would do would be to gather the senior enchanters together and ask "If the templars can annul one circle for the crime of someone not even in it, an apostate, what's stopping them from annulling this circle?"

[Jedi Master of Orion]

How could the Chantry have punished Meredith? She was already dead (or whatever it was that happened to her) when news of the annulment went out.

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

How could the Chantry have punished Meredith? She was already dead (or whatever it was that happened to her) when news of the annulment went out.

Toss her to the hounds!

In all seriousness, she became a statue of red lyrium that was fused into the ground of the Gallows. A testament to the events that transpired. So there's not much else that can be done to her without polluting the water with lyrium.

[UltiPup]

IanPolaris wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

This I can agree with.
I know I'd be ready to fight if I found out that some nutjob had tried to annull an entire Circle because of the actions of an Apostate.

That's like going "This criminal just murdered someone, therefore all criminals no matter their offense must die!!!!!!!"

It is more like "this part of the leg is infected and since we cannot save it, we must amputate the whole leg tp save the body".

No, it's more like, "you have an ingrown toenail so let's amputate the leg".

-Polaris

You are blowing over the fact that an entire Circle can be corrupted by demons. Once they lose to one, they can never come back. And the demons will just try to corrupt everyone around them. Not everyone is a strong mage. For every strong mage, there are 20 weak ones. The weak ones fall prey and prey on others. If any abominations get outside the Circle and free, it will be disastorous. So, it is better to protect the majority by culling the minority. You gotta think about everyone it could affect, not just the mages.

[Sons of Horus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

How could the Chantry have punished Meredith? She was already dead (or whatever it was that happened to her) when news of the annulment went out.

Toss her to the hounds!

In all seriousness, she became a statue of red lyrium that was fused into the ground of the Gallows. A testament to the events that transpired. So there's not much else that can be done to her without polluting the water with lyrium.

The templars and mages could use her for the lyrium. Would that be classed as cannibalism?

[Urzon]

Sons of Horus wrote...
The templars and mages could use her for the lyrium. Would that be classed as cannibalism?

LOL

I just got a picture in my head of some of the templars breaking off a piece of "Crack Rock" Meredith. Lyrium addicts indeed.

[IanPolaris]

UltiPup wrote...

You are blowing over the fact that an entire Circle can be corrupted by demons. Once they lose to one, they can never come back. And the demons will just try to corrupt everyone around them. Not everyone is a strong mage. For every strong mage, there are 20 weak ones. The weak ones fall prey and prey on others. If any abominations get outside the Circle and free, it will be disastorous. So, it is better to protect the majority by culling the minority. You gotta think about everyone it could affect, not just the mages.

If anything the you have the porportions exactly wrong (in reverse).  If 19 out of 20 mages really were walking abomination bombs, then there is no way civilization in Thedas could have ever arisen!  The first abomination would have wiped out any proto-civilizations.  In fact it's reasonable to conclude that the abomination problem is fairly rare at worst (and I'd go so far as to say very rare) unless you are dealing with places with a thin veil that no one should live in anyway.  In addition to that, 70 deaths over the space of a year for an abomination is not all that threatening or damaging.

So no, the Chantry "views with alarm" to shackle the mages, bottom line.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

How could the Chantry have punished Meredith? She was already dead (or whatever it was that happened to her) when news of the annulment went out.

1.  The chanty could and should have cracked down on Meredith long before she went totally tooty fruity, and I am not talking about mages.  Her brazen and illegal sezure of civil political power should have been enough to bring down the wrath of the Divine and Knight Vigilant.

2.  You can punish a dead person.  The Chantry could have retroactively stripped Meredith of her command, and condemned her actions openly.  Instead (per Cassandra) they never even bothered to learn the actual story for three whole years and painted Meredith as a victimized hero in the meantime.

Given that, and given the rank injustice, what other decisions could the circles come up with?  If Meredith could be praised for having a bad hair day and wiping out a circle for something they didn't do, then no circle and no circle mage is safe.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Abominations are rare. But wehter that is a natural reason, or because of the institutionalized trainning, is hard to say. Most weak mages these days die long before they ever are at risk of becoming an abomination, thanks to the harrowing.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Abominations are rare. But wehter that is a natural reason, or because of the institutionalized trainning, is hard to say. Most weak mages these days die long before they ever are at risk of becoming an abomination, thanks to the harrowing.

Yes, thanks to the brilliant plan consisting of this: 

"Hey, you're going into the Fade! Watch out for demons!"

"Wait what?"

*skidoosh!!*

The Harrowing is an incredibly flawed concept that needs to be substantially improved.

The templars and mages could use her for the lyrium. Would that be classed as cannibalism?

LOL. Yup they would be cannibals.

But then we'd have more Merediths running about

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 septembre 2011 - 12:34 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Abominations are rare. But wehter that is a natural reason, or because of the institutionalized trainning, is hard to say. Most weak mages these days die long before they ever are at risk of becoming an abomination, thanks to the harrowing.

Yes, thanks to the brilliant plan consisting of this: 

"Hey, you're going into the Fade! Watch out for demons!"

"Wait what?"

*skidoosh!!*

The Harrowing is an incredibly flawed concept that needs to be substantially improved.

It is supposed to imitate how a mage would naturally encounter demons. The Circle mages do have the advantage of extensive trainning and knowledge though.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It is supposed to imitate how a mage would naturally encounter demons. The Circle mages do have the advantage of extensive trainning and knowledge though.

Really?  How can you say that when apprentices aren't even supposed to know what the Harrowing even is?  Seems to me that the Circle simply dumps apprentices in as demon bait cold and the Templars get to kill many of them.

Nice.

-Polaris