585 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Abominations are rare. But wehter that is a natural reason, or because of the institutionalized trainning, is hard to say. Most weak mages these days die long before they ever are at risk of becoming an abomination, thanks to the harrowing.

Not so.  The harrowing is a recent (and vile) practice and abominations are rare in cultures that don't practice it (such as the Dalish for one).

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It is supposed to imitate how a mage would naturally encounter demons. The Circle mages do have the advantage of extensive trainning and knowledge though.

Really?  How can you say that when apprentices aren't even supposed to know what the Harrowing even is?  Seems to me that the Circle simply dumps apprentices in as demon bait cold and the Templars get to kill many of them.

Nice.

-Polaris

One would assume that the mages do get taught about demons and just aren't privy to the fact that the Harrowing involves demons. That should be rectified however.

I find one thing odd though: If a mage is plagued (constantly or rarely or however much) by demons then the Harrowing is a redundant concept that allows for the Templars to engage in sadistic pleasures.

Demons don't just go "Oh boy he just passed his Harrowing! I call dibs!"

They plague child mages just as much. If the child hasn't succumbed to the first demon that plagued him, then he's not a "weak mage"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 septembre 2011 - 12:57 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

As Gaider explained. The demons are attracted to power. A child mage within a Circle is about as powerless a mage can get. He's got no wordly or magical power (yet) so they are not very attractive to demons. As the trainning advances the mage gets more and more power, and once the Enchanter feels his apprentice is ready, he will submit him to the harrowing, because now the apprentice has reached a point where he can be a possible target of demons.

Of course there will always be students who get possessed before they get to their Harrowing. Other apprentices will end up killing themselves with their own chaotic power. But the Harrowing isn't supposed to be a failsafe. It is suppsoed to be a testament to the apprentice in question's abilities to withstand corruption. And honestly I do not see the problem. You don't get a drivers license without getting out in the traffic (jeopardizing your life) either. And if they were to tell the apprentice before the harrowing, it wouldn't simulate a "natural" situation.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Abominations are rare. But wehter that is a natural reason, or because of the institutionalized trainning, is hard to say. Most weak mages these days die long before they ever are at risk of becoming an abomination, thanks to the harrowing.

Not so.  The harrowing is a recent (and vile) practice and abominations are rare in cultures that don't practice it (such as the Dalish for one).

-Polaris

Ah. How can I forget that you got a great ancient tome, which describes exactly how tribes and savages train their mages. And even holds a complete detail over how many of said mages turns into an abomination.

For all we know, the way the Dalish train their Keepers are by having them eat babies... And since the Dalish mages are MUCH rarer than a human mage, it is obvious that an abomination amongst the Dalish is more rare.

[TastesLikeTNT]

I'm under the impression that abominations are actually quite rare, but devastating when they occur. So maybe the vast majority of mage children never encounter a demon in any form.

I'm a little unsure about the mechanics of people becoming abominations. In the Harrowing it comes off as mages doing battle with demons in the Fade and then losing, but it seems like the mage can be possessed even when not in the Fade. Uldred summoned a demon, but he wasn't in the Fade when it took control of him. Olivia was just possessed spontaneously. How could any mage protect themselves against that? Did she make a deal with a demon inside her head that we don't get to hear?

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As Gaider explained. The demons are attracted to power. A child mage within a Circle is about as powerless a mage can get. He's got no wordly or magical power (yet) so they are not very attractive to demons. As the trainning advances the mage gets more and more power, and once the Enchanter feels his apprentice is ready, he will submit him to the harrowing, because now the apprentice has reached a point where he can be a possible target of demons.

Of course there will always be students who get possessed before they get to their Harrowing. Other apprentices will end up killing themselves with their own chaotic power. But the Harrowing isn't supposed to be a failsafe. It is suppsoed to be a testament to the apprentice in question's abilities to withstand corruption. And honestly I do not see the problem. You don't get a drivers license without getting out in the traffic (jeopardizing your life) either. And if they were to tell the apprentice before the harrowing, it wouldn't simulate a "natural" situation.

The point of the Circle system is to train any and all mages that come in to be able to use their powers without fear of demons or using the magic uncontrollably. Having something in place like the current form of the Harrowing is like a big "**** you" to the face.

For all we know, the way the Dalish train their Keepers are by having them eat babies... And since the Dalish mages are MUCH rarer than a human mage, it is obvious that an abomination amongst the Dalish is more rare.

You do realize Merrill tells you exactly how the Dalish train their mages after Night Terrors?

[EmperorSahlertz]

All she says is that they are taught to trust nothing while in the Fade. i certainly hope their trainning is a lot more elaborate than that.

[dragonflight288]

I'm a little unsure about the mechanics of people becoming abominations. In the Harrowing it comes off as mages doing battle with demons in the Fade and then losing, but it seems like the mage can be possessed even when not in the Fade. Uldred summoned a demon, but he wasn't in the Fade when it took control of him. Olivia was just possessed spontaneously. How could any mage protect themselves against that? Did she make a deal with a demon inside her head that we don't get to hear?

Don't forget Mouse. In the mage origin story, Mouse was actually a demon (I think a pride demon) who had us fight a lesser rage demon and then tried to trick us into letting him in. In that case, the Harrowing was not just fighting a demon to keep from getting possessed but also to realize you were being played and manipulated. A much more subtle and more dangerous threat. And that's only when we enter the Fade consciously. If a mage is plauged by demons in their dreams then that's no different than any other non-mage. They also go to the Fade in their dreams.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

If you're going to use the Warden's words for "Circles suck", don't dismiss that you can actually be a loyalist who loves the Circle. A Warden who hates the Circle and calls it a prison has no different experiences than the Warden who says they love it other than the player's head canon.

I didn't dismiss that, since I addressed that The Warden can tell Wynne that he accept her proposal and tell her that he wants to go back to the Circle of Ferelden. Finn in Witch Hunt is likely a Loyalist. Human history has examples of slaves who accepted their life of servitude, and some mages see the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. However, you missed the entire point of this example - it illustrates that it was seen as unpleasant prior to the rebellion lead by Uldred. Even a moderate like Wynne never contests that it is a prison (and even the VO for the Magi Origin addresses it as such outside of personal perspective) and she argues that The Warden can change it from being an "oppressive place" if he argues that as the reason why he would never go back.

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

No, because my Hawke is not a psychopath.

It doesn't take a psychopath to want to prevent an Exalted March against Kirkwall and save a city from destruction, which is what I felt was a likely outcome once Leliana reached Divine Justina V, especially since one of the dialogue options is Hawke trying (and failing) to convince Leliana not to argue in favor of an attack against Kirkwall.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

All she says is that they are taught to trust nothing while in the Fade. i certainly hope their trainning is a lot more elaborate than that.

I think there was more dialogue with Merrill about Dalish mages in DAII and maybe a little bit in DAO. One would think that would be enough. Trust nothing. Don't trust the spirits or demons, the realms, the very nature of the area, etc.

I also think maybe Lanaya talked about it, but I'm not sure.

We know that a Keeper teaches their First bits of what magic the former knows, and that the Dalish cannot trust anything in the Fade. So we naturally know that they know how to control their magic properly and their views on anything that deals with the Fade.

[TastesLikeTNT]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Don't forget Mouse. In the mage origin story, Mouse was actually a demon (I think a pride demon) who had us fight a lesser rage demon and then tried to trick us into letting him in. In that case, the Harrowing was not just fighting a demon to keep from getting possessed but also to realize you were being played and manipulated. A much more subtle and more dangerous threat. And that's only when we enter the Fade consciously. If a mage is plauged by demons in their dreams then that's no different than any other non-mage. They also go to the Fade in their dreams.

Ah, yes, Mouse. I liked him. As far as people-possessing demons go, he was rather gentlemanly.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The same can be said about Circle mages...

We don't know wether or not the Dalish have any ritual akin to the Harrowing. All we know about Dalish mages, is that the Keeper trains his first, and that one of their sutras are " Don't trust anyhting but yourself in the Fade". That's it. We have far more extensive knoweldge of how Circle mages are trained, and this familarity has apaprently bred contempt, even when you know of absolutely no better alternative.

Now you will probably claim that the Dalish, or the chasind are better. All I ask then, is for you to present the proof.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Don't forget Mouse. In the mage origin story, Mouse was actually a demon (I think a pride demon) who had us fight a lesser rage demon and then tried to trick us into letting him in. In that case, the Harrowing was not just fighting a demon to keep from getting possessed but also to realize you were being played and manipulated. A much more subtle and more dangerous threat. And that's only when we enter the Fade consciously. If a mage is plauged by demons in their dreams then that's no different than any other non-mage. They also go to the Fade in their dreams.

Demons don't try and posses normal people. Mages attract demons. You could say that all cognitive creatures are lamps. But only the mages are the lit lamps, everyone else is doused. Demons are of course moths in this analogy.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The same can be said about Circle mages...

We don't know wether or not the Dalish have any ritual akin to the Harrowing. All we know about Dalish mages, is that the Keeper trains his first, and that one of their sutras are " Don't trust anyhting but yourself in the Fade". That's it. We have far more extensive knoweldge of how Circle mages are trained, and this familarity has apaprently bred contempt, even when you know of absolutely no better alternative.

I don't see the problem in addressing the flaws with the Chantry controlled Circles of Magi. Many had proposed alternatives to the Chantry controlled Circles prior to the mage rebellion.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Now you will probably claim that the Dalish, or the chasind are better. All I ask then, is for you to present the proof.

People address the Chasind Wilders, the people of the Kingdom of Rivain, and the Avvar tribes to address that not every culture views mages and magic the same way that many in the Andrastian nations do, even when one accounts for the tragedies of abominations.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And you point at these with only the HOPE of them being "better". You got absolutely zero proof for that hope, and are just basing that on some sort of wish of showing the Circle to be inferior.

The attitude of magic amongst these tribes is different becaue magic RULE them, instead of serve them. Not because they are better at trainning their mages and don't wade through the same kind of crap the Circle does (bad apprentices, bad mages, bad abomiantions, and so on, and so forth).

You address flaws, and call for an alternative. Yet the alternative you present is a void, since we got no knowledge of how they function. Rivain certainly isn't an alternative, since if its the Andrastian part, the mages go to a Circle, if it is the tradional part, they become abominations, and if it is the Qunari part they are to become Saarebas...

Chasind are ruleld by their mages, and that is ALL that we know about them. So no viable alternative (yet anyway).

Dalish aren't either. In part becasue we know so very little about their trainning, but also becasue we don't wether their form of trainning can ever be applied to the amount of amges in need of trainning in the world. So again, not viable.

Tevinter, is completely out of the question for all non-mages to accept.

Until you find, and learn about a society where mages and non-mages live in absolute equality, with same oppertunities and conditions, and where the abomination issue, isn't an issue, then all you is blowing hot air at the Circle. Because the Circle is simply the best single option for mage trainning there is. So far.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 27 septembre 2011 - 02:04 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And you point at these with only the HOPE of them being "better". You got absolutely zero proof for that hope, and are just basing that on some sort of wish of showing the Circle to be inferior.

The Chantry controlled Circles are flawed, and some of us think they are wrong. Attempting a better alternative is better than doing nothing.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The attitude of magic amongst these tribes is different becaue magic RULE them, instead of serve them. Not because they are better at trainning their mages and don't wade through the same kind of crap the Circle does (bad apprentices, bad mages, bad abomiantions, and so on, and so forth).

There are mages in leadership positions among the Avvar and the Chasind, and from what little we know, there doesn't seem to be democracy in Thedas, so I don't see the issue. Also, the seers in Rivain aren't ruling the people and the mages in the morally bankrupt society of Haven aren't ruling over the people, but these two cultures address that some alternatives to societies that adhere to the Chantry of Andraste don't view mages and magic in the same way that the Chantry and its Andrastian followers do. Gaider already addressed that these other cultures deal with abominations when he said these cultures don't control mages, and the existance of abominations hasn't dissuaded them.

[rak72]

Something I don't understand (probably a plot hole) - In DAO, in the circle tower, there is the one room you enter that has tranquil mages. One by one they start turning into abominations. Tranquility is suppose to prevent that, no?

[TEWR]

rak72 wrote...

Something I don't understand (probably a plot hole) - In DAO, in the circle tower, there is the one room you enter that has tranquil mages. One by one they start turning into abominations. Tranquility is suppose to prevent that, no?

I think Cullen addressed this, though not outright. He did say that demons in solid form could summon other demons into other people, so I assume that's what was going on since those Tranquil turn into shades and we've met Abominations who go into Demon form (Uldred, Baroness, Marethari, Wilmod, Hunger demon in Blackmarsh Undying, etc.)

I'm more interested in the fact that a person can be born Tranquil.


http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Eiton

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 septembre 2011 - 02:28 .

[DKJaigen]

rak72 wrote...

Something I don't understand (probably a plot hole) - In DAO, in the circle tower, there is the one room you enter that has tranquil mages. One by one they start turning into abominations. Tranquility is suppose to prevent that, no?

Mages can be seen as gateways to the mortal realm. But as soon as demon gets foothold in the form of an abomination he can summon others of his kind who can in turn turn everybody into abominations. And that case it doesnt matter if the being is templar, mage  or common civillian. Tranquil mages can become possesed as well but are no longer gateways

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And you point at these with only the HOPE of them being "better". You got absolutely zero proof for that hope, and are just basing that on some sort of wish of showing the Circle to be inferior.

All other societies are superior because it has not collapsed on itself. the mage-templar war has proven that  even the hideous tevinter society is superior to the circle system.

[LobselVith8]

rak72 wrote...

Something I don't understand (probably a plot hole) - In DAO, in the circle tower, there is the one room you enter that has tranquil mages. One by one they start turning into abominations. Tranquility is suppose to prevent that, no?

If memory serves me correctly, shades take the place of the tranquil mages.

[Cobra's_back]

It could be a problem of too few seekers and too far away to know what is going on. It could also be a problem with the Divine. The seekers take direction from the Divine. If the Divine doesn’t care about mages and view them as problems, the seekers wouldn’t have been assigned to investigate abuses committed against Mages. More importantly, if Elthina is not complaining about Meredith, the Divine won’t get the seekers involved. According to this official guide I purchased for Dragon age 2, it states that “ Elthina is not always strong or decisive on the behalf of the people, the grand cleric bears responsibility for relinquishing too much authority to the more aggressive knight commander”. Elthina is clearly weak. I really don’t know if the Divine cared about the mages.
My Hawk blamed both Orsino and Meredith for the problem beginning Act3 first fight conversation with Orsino and Meredith. Elthina comes by and thanks me for trying to calm Meredith and Orsino. I asked her if she could do anything. She said that people don’t understand how very little power she had. That was a strange comment to me. Had she already tried to get the Divine to help?
One of the other posts I read made reference to this being an Era of Feudal system. That person was correct for some of the locations. A Feudal system didn’t see all born created equal. They thought some were more important than other. The rebellion was needed. I just didn’t approve of the Anders method. Now that it has started, killing Leliana isn’t going to fix or solve it. You kill her and the march is still on. Turning the place into another Tevinter Imperium isn’t going to work. Per my guide, the Tevinter nobility is famously debauched and slavery is still practiced. It would turn its nations to the south if its attention were not diverted by the constant wars with the Qunari. I also don’t see the Tevinter Imperium as trading up if there are mages draining little boys of all their blood to fuel their power. That would be pretty sick. I surely don’t want to play another do nothing hero, so I’m hoping my hero will find a way to build a society where all have some basic fundamental rights. You need to change the heart and minds of the people. It is also true a circle is needed to educate Mages and a school for Templars as well. Mages should be allowed to have families and homes of their own. A place where church and state are separate.

[dragonflight288]

Good luck convincing a religious institution which has had political power from its beginning. The very religion is tied intricately with expansionist Orlais. The only way the chantry won't have any political power whatsoever is if you take away all military power. The templars are needed. I agree with this. But they need to be loyal to the state, not to the church. Seekers are....I can't say needed because I honestly don't know what they actually do. Cassandra was the first one we meet. And all she does is interrogate Varic because she has preconceptions over something that may or may not have happened.

[EmperorSahlertz]

What makes you think the Templars loyal to the state instead of the Chantry will treat mages any better? The Templars need to be loyal to an ideal. They should be seperated from the Chantry, but certainly not become part of the state.

[Cobra's_back]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Good luck convincing a religious institution which has had political power from its beginning. The very religion is tied intricately with expansionist Orlais. The only way the chantry won't have any political power whatsoever is if you take away all military power. The templars are needed. I agree with this. But they need to be loyal to the state, not to the church. Seekers are....I can't say needed because I honestly don't know what they actually do. Cassandra was the first one we meet. And all she does is interrogate Varic because she has preconceptions over something that may or may not have happened.

I agree with you. It would be tough. It is the only system that would work in my mind. According to the guide Elthina failed. If anyone caused an Exalted March, it would be Anders. He blew up their building and everyone in it. Anders must have felt that was the only way. The war already started. The Chantry has loss the circles. If the mages and templars can come to terms to build a council with each group being represented then they can take what they liked about the education and build on it further. The key would be to get the mages and Templar together.
England got sick of the Roman Catholic Church. If the Chantry wants back in, they have to play a more minor role. Can Kirkwall and Ferelden say no to an Orlesian religion? I know Alistair wasn’t crazy about the Chantry.