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[Cyberstrike nTo]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't like Leliana in "Faith," I found what she said deplorable, and I couldn't imagine that my pro-mage apostate Hawke would simply watch her walk away after everything she said about an Exalted March against Kirkwall. Much like Sister Petrice in "Shepherding Wolves," I felt like I was watching Hawke simply allow a dangerous antagonists to simply walk away instead of putting down an enemy.

Here's a high ranking member of the Chantry, ignoring the dictatorship that is going on in Kirkwall, either dismissing or completely ignorant of the fact that mages and templars are conspiring together to remove a despot from power, never mentioning how commoners and nobles will rally around Hawke if he publicly condemns Meredith's dictatorship, and Leliana is talking about an Exalted March against the city-state instead of simply removing the problem that has caused so much unrest among so many groups of people.

Leliana has no problem providing her name, her history with The Warden, her purpose in Kirkwall, or addressing a potential Exalted March against Kirkwall, so why does she seem ignorant about why there's unrest in Kirkwall if she explicitly states that's why she's in the city-state? When Meredith is causing so much dissent among the people, why doesn't Leliana actually do something about the situation? If Leliana is representing the Divine and she was sent to investigate the situation in Kirkwall, why doesn't she once mention the actual problem that the narrative makes clear is causing so much trouble for both mages and templars: Knight-Commander Meredith... the self-appointed ruler of the city-state of Kirkwall? Is an Exalted March preferrable to simply replacing Meredith, especially if the Champion is one of the people speaking out against her draconian rule?

This isn't a character who I want to see again, and I think Hawke should have had the option of killing Sister Nightingale in "Faith" instead of doing nothing about someone I view as a dangerous antagonist.

No, I didn't want to kill her in DA:O and I still don't want to kill her DA2. She's my favorite character in the Dragon Age universe.

[rak72]

I really didn't find her offensive in any way. Her appearance would fit with the way I left her in DAO, so there aren't any story line inconsistencies to ****** me off, either.

[LobselVith8]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

If Hawke had dealt the killing blow to as many high-ranking members of Thedas society/government as you would have liked, DA2 would have played out like a prison movie. Or would have been a quick cutscene to Hawke's execution. Which I'm sure several people would have loved to see.

To answer your thread's question though...no. I had no desire to kill Sister Nightingale. I was happy to see her. And I'll be happy to see how her role in the DA story unfolds.

I respectfully disagree. I don't think there's any reason to prevent Hawke from killing Sister Petrice when she admits she tried to start a religious war, and she's in a hovel with one single templar who participated in the act. I don't think Hawke should have simply stood by while Cullen and one other templar took Bethany away, since this is his baby sister, but it's certainly an issue that you seem to disagree with. I don't think Hawke should have simply stood by while Grace killed Ser Thrask, since both of them were right in front of him. I don't see the issue here - it's not as though I'm arguing that Hawke should have pulled a Neo and started killing every templar in the Gallows via The Matrix.

Dave of Canada wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

If Hawke had dealt the killing blow to as many high-ranking members of Thedas society/government as you would have liked, DA2 would have played out like a prison movie.

A few people wish to extend the protagonist's plot armor to it's fullest extent and hopes they can do everything they can without consequence.

It wouldn't have taken plot armor for Hawke to be active instead of passive, Dave.

Lenimph wrote...

Hey OP ... was talking about this in your "Will Sister Nightingale continue to be anti-mage?" thread not enough?

And no I don't want to kill her unless it's the way Ish proposed earlier.

This thread doesn't focus on Leliana's comments being anti-mage, it focuses on whether anyone thought the protagonist should have had the option to kill her. It came about because of a discussion that I was having with Ethereal about her at the Anders and Grey Wardens thread, so I thought it was better to move the discussion over here instead of taking over discussion about Anders and the Grey Wardens.

I didn't find Sister Nightingale to be any different from Sister Petrice. If someone tells me that they plan on recommending that my city - my home - be destroyed in a religious war because they didn't bother to get their facts straight, why should I do nothing about it?

[Herr Uhl]

I didn't want to kill her.

Edit: I don't think killing the one who is sent to investigate would hinder a march. Rather the opposite.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 22 septembre 2011 - 04:30 .

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't find Sister Nightingale to be any different from Sister Petrice. If someone tells me that they plan on recommending that my city - my home - be destroyed in a religious war because they didn't bother to get their facts straight, why should I do nothing about it?

Leliana tells Hawke no such thing.

And killing her is hardly going to make the Divine less concerned about the situation in Kirkwall.

[esper]

My Hawke certainly wanted to.
I don't understand Leliana. Either she is a very bad spy that couldn't figure out anything about the unrest in Kirkwall. (My Hawke publicly siding with Orsino and conspiring with the noble, properly did more to cause unrest than any small blood mage group.)
Or she was just trying to appease my Hawke and casting blame on the blood mages because she didn't wanted Hawke to know what she was really up to, in which case she was just as bad a spy since Hawke is a very public figure and I think that nobody in Kirkwall by the time of Faith would doubt that my mage Hawke properly wouldn't take kindly to the words Leliana spoke.
Either way Leliana comes off as a very bad and incompetent spy and since she made it sound like she would recommend a exhalted march against Kirkwall it meant that the my Hawke would no have any reason to fear the divine reaction if Leliana was killed.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Nope, didn't want to kill her at all.

All right.

TJPags wrote...

She was there to investigate.  She didn't condemn at all.  She provided her observations.  You disagree with them, which is fine.  And guess what?  YOU GET TO INFLUENCE HER.

I didn't see where Hawke asking Sister Nightingale not to encourage the Divine to lead an Exalted March against Kirkwall actually worked. All that happened was that Leliana told Hawke to inform Grand Cleric Elthina to leave Kirkwall.

TJPags wrote...

She states that the Divine is considering an Exalted March, and she was there to provide her recommendation.  She says she's in favor of it, or leaning toward it, or something similar.  Yes when she walked away from my Hawke, I'd convinced her not to do it, and SHE AGREED.

Leliana didn't seem to agree when my apostate Hawke asked her not to recommend for Kirkwall to be destroyed in a religious attack.

TJPags wrote...

As others have said, how stupid would it be to kill her?  She's sent by the Divine, who is already considering wiping the city off the map.  You want to kill her?  Do you realize what a guarantee that would be to destroy Kirkwall?  The Divine's best agent, assassin, bard, smart, well-experienced at this, killed in the City you think may be beyond saving?  Killed in the Chantry?  Come on.  You just signed the death warrant for that hellhole.  Which is fine with me, but some of you seem to think it's worth saving.

If Leliana is going to encourage the Divine to attack Kirkwall in an Exalted March, then I don't see why Hawke shouldn't kill her.

TJPags wrote...

Seriously, this is getting nuts.  Kill Elthinna.  Kill Meredith.  Kill Leliana.  Kill Orsino.  Is there a single person in authority in Kirkwall that you DON'T want to kill?

I said Grand Cleric Elthina didn't do anything about her subordinate Meredith, I didn't say Hawke should have killed her for being inept.  I never recommended that Hawke should kill Knight-Commander Meredith during Acts I and II, I wrote that the Champion should have had the ability to publicly oppose her dictatorship instead of doing nothing for three years. I never recommended to kill First Enchanter Orsino, I said I found his clandestine relationship with Quentin pointless and I didn't see a reason for him to become the GoA Harvester when pro-mage Hawke defeated the invading templars.

[whykikyouwhy]

@LobselVith8 - I disagree because I don't see an "issue." This all seems to boil down to you feeling that Bioware did not tell the story that you wanted to see and experience. And that's fine. It's not a story without flaws. But what I can't see the reason for is the amount of vitriol, or the declaration of the PC as passive just because certain scenes didn't play out a certain way. It's not your story, it's not my story...it's Bioware's. And they've shared it and allowed us to sit in on it.

It's certainly not cause, imo, to want to kill companions and NPCs just because they didn't do or say what you wanted. I would have loved for Leia to have taken a blaster to Grand Moff Tarkin just cuz, but that didn't happen in Star Wars and that's ok. I sat back and watched how the story played out because I believed there was a reason for the way things were.

Disagreeing with how the game turned out is one thing. So is not liking the game. But without personally being in the chairs of the creative team, we can only wait for official answers from the devs, or wait until the next chapter arrives.

[jlb524]

TheChris92 wrote...

What's with all these "I want to kill character X" threads. No, I don't want to kill Leliana, since I adore her and she's my favorite Dragon Age character/follower. I don't see why anyone would want to kill her anyway? What's the point? What's the gain? What has she done, that she suddenly is deserving of death?

She's Laidlaw's fave character and she's probably going to be in another DLC?

Wulfram wrote...
And killing her is hardly going to make the Divine less concerned about the situation in Kirkwall.

It would probably guarantee an Exalted March.  The Divine would assume The Resolutionists killed Leliana.

Modifié par jlb524, 22 septembre 2011 - 04:49 .

[berelinde]

TeenZombie wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

No, b/c my Hawke feared the wrath of my Warden.

...and the Divine...but mostly my Warden.

You people focused on killing characters are sadistic!!!!

They really ought to just play Sims games where they can drown, starve, and set fire to pixelated people to their hearts content.  All this "plot" and "character development" is getting in the way of the parts they seem to like best.

Conversely, Leliana worshipers should go play Sims games where they can go to church and go shoe shopping together for all eternity. It works out to be about the same thing.

[esper]

My problem with Leliana is that she comes off as a very bad spy. The thing she said, she should never had said to a pro-mage Hawke no matter her reasons. I really thought she was smarter and better at the spying than that. And Hawke is a public figure in Kirkwall. It should be very easy to at least figure out where Hawke stand politically considering how act 3 starts.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Come on, she's a high ranking agent for the Divine for crying out loud.

Do you really expect her to run around proclaiming, "FREEDOM FOR MAGES!!!!! FIGHT, KILL, REVOLUTION NOW!!!!!!!!!!!"??????

How about not recommending the destruction of the city-state of Kirkwall? Even Leliana doesn't seem certain about her claims. "The Resolutionists have become violent. They are likely behind the unrest here." Leliana doesn't know for certain what role the Resolutionists are playing in Kirkwall, despite the fact that she was sent to the city to investigate the situation. All Leliana does is tell Hawke to warn Elthina to leave: "There is refuge for her at the Grand Cathedral in Orlais."

TJPags wrote...

She was investigating extremist elements in Kirkwall. And some of you may not want to admit it, but a Mage Underground is certainly something the Chantry would want to look into, and likely stop.

Maybe the mage underground has something to do with the Knight-Commander turned dictator who Leliana fails to mention completely, even though she has no problem providing her name, her relationship to The Warden, why she's there, and telling Hawke to warn Grand Cleric Elthina to leave Kirkwall. Since Meredith is the problem causing unrest among the people, why not simply replace her instead of destroying the city in a religious war?

TJPags wrote...

It makes sense that she's there, and what she says makes perfect sense given who she is.

Wouldn't it make sense for Hawke to take down a person who is going to recommend to the Divine to see Kirkwall destroyed?

[syllogi]

berelinde wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

No, b/c my Hawke feared the wrath of my Warden.

...and the Divine...but mostly my Warden.

You people focused on killing characters are sadistic!!!!

They really ought to just play Sims games where they can drown, starve, and set fire to pixelated people to their hearts content.  All this "plot" and "character development" is getting in the way of the parts they seem to like best.

Conversely, Leliana worshipers should go play Sims games where they can go to church and go shoe shopping together for all eternity. It works out to be about the same thing.

Leliana isn't my favorite (or least favorite) character.  She is an interesting character, however, and I enjoyed Leliana's Song, despite the weird retconning, and her appearance in DA2, because she's part of a larger, interesting plot.

Killing Leliana would be an inelegant, brutal way to end her participation in the ongoing story.  Excuse me for enjoying the writing of these games and seeing characters in shades of grey.  I forgot I was on the BSN for a second.

[jlb524]

esper wrote...

My problem with Leliana is that she comes off as a very bad spy. The thing she said, she should never had said to a pro-mage Hawke no matter her reasons. I really thought she was smarter and better at the spying than that. And Hawke is a public figure in Kirkwall. It should be very easy to at least figure out where Hawke stand politically considering how act 3 starts.

What does 'pro-mage Hawke' entail at that point?

Supporting Orsino?  Orsino doesn't publicly condone the actions of groups like the Resolutionists.

[LobselVith8]

Morroian wrote...

No and why create another thread to discuss something you've already essentially discussed before.

Because Ethereal and I were discussing Leliana ("Sister Nightingale") at the "Anders and Grey Wardens" thread, and I thought discussion should be moved instead of taking over discussion about Anders and the Grey Wardens since it had gone on for three pages.

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8, do you have a schedule you follow for these little rants about how we should pre-emptively kill every character in the Dragon Age universe, or do you just start these threads when the mood strikes?

I didn't realize my recent threads about Aldenon were rants. I thought he was an interesting historical figure, given he was a mage who co-created Ferelden with Calenhad. And I thought The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden may be seen in a similar light to Aldenon if he requested for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence and then soon disappeared (which is what happened to Aldenon.

thats1evildude wrote...

If you are following a schedule, could you at least come up with some new ideas? As others have pointed out, we really didn't need a second thread about Sister Nightingale's "anti-mage agenda." Maybe you could suggest pre-emptively killing Varric for imagined crimes? Or The Talkative Man?

I'm not discussing if Leliana was anti-mage, I'm addressing that she's going back to the Divine and it looks like an Exalted March will follow suit. What does protecting Kirkwall have to do with what side of the fence Hawke is on in regards to mages and templars? Why shouldn't Hawke protect his home from someone who seems to be saying she'll advocate an Exalted March against Kirkwall?

[berelinde]

The big problem I have with Leliana is that they just won't let her go away and stay gone away. Her plot armor is a mile thick.

For a lot of people, there is one NPC they just can't stand. Fingernails on a blackboard. Most of the time, players get the chance to either not recruit that character or they get the chance to get rid of the character in a more permanent way. Personally, I just leave her in Lothering. Having rid themselves of the NPC they detest, they do not expect to see that character return again and again and again and again. Yet this is EXACTLY what happens with Leliana. She's Thedas's very own cockroach.

Lots of people take great glee in killing Anders (and describe their joy in great detail). What kind of outcry would there be if executed troll-face Anders came back in DA3 with "U MAD?"

So yeah, my patience with Leliana has run out. I can avoid recruiting her in DA:O, which I do. There's no way to avoid seeing her in DA2, unfortunately. If she comes back in another DLC, in an expansion, or Maker forbid, DA3, I want to kill her dead and have her stay that way.

[esper]

jlb524 wrote...

esper wrote...

My problem with Leliana is that she comes off as a very bad spy. The thing she said, she should never had said to a pro-mage Hawke no matter her reasons. I really thought she was smarter and better at the spying than that. And Hawke is a public figure in Kirkwall. It should be very easy to at least figure out where Hawke stand politically considering how act 3 starts.

What does 'pro-mage Hawke' entail at that point?

Supporting Orsino?  Orsino doesn't publicly condone the actions of groups like the Resolutionists.

If you are a mage as my Hawke, who publicly supported the first enchanter who is trying to get the nobles to act against the Knight-commander's(illegal) rule in Kirkwall, and live with another apostate (And this should be very easy to hear about if you are a decent spy). It should cross Leliana's mind that coming with vauge threats against the city and saying that other mages is the reason behind the troubles in front of the described Champion is not the smartest nor the most self-preserving statements to make.

Modifié par esper, 22 septembre 2011 - 05:01 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm not discussing if Leliana was anti-mage, I'm addressing that she's going back to the Divine and it looks like an Exalted March will follow suit. What does protecting Kirkwall have to do with what side of the fence Hawke is on in regards to mages and templars? Why shouldn't Hawke protect his home from someone who seems to be saying she'll advocate an Exalted March against Kirkwall?

Why would Leliana's disappearance dissuade the Divine from carrying out the Exalted March?

[esper]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not discussing if Leliana was anti-mage, I'm addressing that she's going back to the Divine and it looks like an Exalted March will follow suit. What does protecting Kirkwall have to do with what side of the fence Hawke is on in regards to mages and templars? Why shouldn't Hawke protect his home from someone who seems to be saying she'll advocate an Exalted March against Kirkwall?

Why would Leliana's disappearance dissuade the Divine from carrying out the Exalted March?

It wouldn't, but if Leliana is going to tell the Divine to march against Kirkwall anyway (which I personally don't think that Leliana is going to do,, but Hawke doesn't know Leliana like the warden), a anti-chantry Hawke might just think that removing Leliana could buy them a month or two more, given how long it takes before the Divine would think that Leliana is dead.

[LobselVith8]

Urzon wrote...

Wow....... another angry thread about Leliana in DA2....

I'd see Hawke taking out Leliana as being pro-active, rather than angry. I suppose he could be angry over the idea of his city being destroyed in an Exalted March, which could be why the Champion would kill her.

Urzon wrote...

I wonder if someone in Bioware is keeping track of how many there are on the forums. It would be funny if they get up to 20, Gaider would buy lunch for everyone.

Let me summerize the next 20 pages though...

"Rabble!'

"Rabble!"

"RABBLE"

"RABBLE"

"RABBLE"

More like "If Leliana is going to recommend the destruction of Kirkwall, why shouldn't I stop her?"

thats1evildude wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

BioWare should just make the protagonist of DA3 omnicidal neutral... maybe they should borrow Kratos. Than nobody could complain that you couldn't butcher everyone in your path. ;D

That might be extreme, but it's better to kill anyone who might cause problems down the road — especially those people who express any opinion that can be construed as anti-mage — than to risk letting them live. Better that they die now rather than allow them to be a danger someday.

Which is my issue with Hawke in certain moments - like when Sister Petrice acknowledges she tried to start a religious war that involving his death, while Hawke proceeds to do nothing about it but stand there and say something to her. I'd imagine putting an end to Sister Petrice shouldn't be that far-fetched, especially when Hawke is confronting her in a little hovel with nobody there but Hawke, his companions, and the single templar who aided Petrice. If the writers didn't want Hawke to kill Petrice, why not simply have Hawke find the hovel empty of its occupants?

thats1evildude wrote...

Now for a 5,000-word essay on why it's wrong for the Chantry to lock up mages for what they might do in the future. No, it's not the same thing at all.

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

Couldn't someone simply say, "Look at what happened at the end of Dragon Age 2" for that answer?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

People of BSN! Standing around here all day, shouting "rabble", isn't going to help anything!

You're welcome to provide your opinion about whether you would have killed or done nothing about Leliana in "Faith" if you'd like.

[Herr Uhl]

esper wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not discussing if Leliana was anti-mage, I'm addressing that she's going back to the Divine and it looks like an Exalted March will follow suit. What does protecting Kirkwall have to do with what side of the fence Hawke is on in regards to mages and templars? Why shouldn't Hawke protect his home from someone who seems to be saying she'll advocate an Exalted March against Kirkwall?

Why would Leliana's disappearance dissuade the Divine from carrying out the Exalted March?

It wouldn't, but if Leliana is going to tell the Divine to march against Kirkwall anyway (which I personally don't think that Leliana is going to do,, but Hawke doesn't know Leliana like the warden), a anti-chantry Hawke might just think that removing Leliana could buy them a month or two more, given how long it takes before the Divine would think that Leliana is dead.

I'd wager it'd be the same speed of delivery. Unless you plan to also kill the Grand Cleric, which would be even harder to conceal.

[esper]

Herr Uhl wrote...

esper wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not discussing if Leliana was anti-mage, I'm addressing that she's going back to the Divine and it looks like an Exalted March will follow suit. What does protecting Kirkwall have to do with what side of the fence Hawke is on in regards to mages and templars? Why shouldn't Hawke protect his home from someone who seems to be saying she'll advocate an Exalted March against Kirkwall?

Why would Leliana's disappearance dissuade the Divine from carrying out the Exalted March?

It wouldn't, but if Leliana is going to tell the Divine to march against Kirkwall anyway (which I personally don't think that Leliana is going to do,, but Hawke doesn't know Leliana like the warden), a anti-chantry Hawke might just think that removing Leliana could buy them a month or two more, given how long it takes before the Divine would think that Leliana is dead.

I'd wager it'd be the same speed of delivery. Unless you plan to also kill the Grand Cleric, which would be even harder to conceal.

I doubt that Elthina would tell the Divine - her speciality is after all doing nothing and close her eyes, espically if she thinks it might lead to violence, and if my Hawke has reason to think that a march is going to be called against Kirkwall anyway, she might  as well take the chance. There is nothing to lose at that point. 

[RagingCyclone]

I would never kill Leliana...never. But it would have been funny to see Hawke try...bigger, badder, stronger people have tried and yet she's still around. And if my warden was with her...hehe

[Herr Uhl]

esper wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I'd wager it'd be the same speed of delivery. Unless you plan to also kill the Grand Cleric, which would be even harder to conceal.

I doubt that Elthina would tell the Divine - her speciality is after all doing nothing and close her eyes, espically if she thinks it might lead to violence, and if my Hawke has reason to think that a march is going to be called against Kirkwall anyway, she might  as well take the chance. There is nothing to lose at that point. 

She had some kind of correspondence with the Divine iirc, as I imagine Grand clerics usually do. Counting on her not sending word seems odd.

And if you're at the point of "well, might as well" you're not really answering the original question.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 22 septembre 2011 - 05:21 .

[happy_daiz]

Leliana annoyed me a bit in DAO, but not enough to actually want to kill her. My husband tried to get me to kill her off during the Sacred Ashes quest. Being the sporting type, I attempted it, but I stupidly brought Wynne along as well, and they, along with the guardian, all turned on me. My mabari and I didn't stand a chance, and promptly had our bums handed to us. I replayed that section so that nobody had to die.

Husbands can be such antagonists. 

I was happy to see her in DA2.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 22 septembre 2011 - 05:26 .