585 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

phaonica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I would imagine killing Leliana would have to do with the fact that she seems to be confirming she'll endorse an Exalted March against Kirkwall. I think that any protagonist who wants to protect his home would do anything to save it. If Leliana returns and endorses an Exalted March, I imagine an attack would happen sooner than if she went AWOL because she was killed and nobody found out what happened to her...And this thread doesn't have anything to do with the dichotomy between mages and templars, it has to do with saving Kirkwall from destruction.

I'm wondering why you think Meredith's threat that "the people will demand blood" near the end of the game is imaginary and not to be considered seriously, but Leliana's claim that the Chantry might march against Kirkwall (at that point with less reason) is to be considered a dire threat.

Because Meredith's position goes against the concept that the people of Thedas want mages free.  Thus, Meredith, the crazy mage hater, must be wrong.

Leliana's threat, however, reinforces the danger to mages and the danger of the evil Chantry.  Thus, must be true.

Perspective.  It's all about perspective.

[thats1evildude]

IanPolaris wrote...

Because the Divines have an unfortunate history of being old bats with too much power and not enough restraint.

Your argument is based on a single example of a Divine acting rashly. I know that Justinia II (Dorothea) is a reasonable woman, having met her in Leliana's Song.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 septembre 2011 - 03:25 .

[phaonica]

IanPolaris wrote...


Because the Divines have an unfortunate history of being old bats with too much power and not enough restraint.
Ambrosia II wanted to call an Exalted March against her own Cathedral and wanted to slaughter all mages for being mages and had to be talked out of it.  Given the Chantry's history, if the "Divine's Left Hand" (who presumably knows the Divine better than anyone) is hinting at a Divine March, it should indeed be considered a dire and realistic threat.

-Polaris

I see. So you're going to judge this Divine based on the actions of previous Divines. And I suppose "the people" have no history of creating mobs for illogical reasons?

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I respectfully disagree. I don't think there's any reason to prevent Hawke from killing Sister Petrice when she admits she tried to start a religious war, and she's in a hovel with one single templar who participated in the act. I don't think Hawke should have simply stood by while Cullen and one other templar took Bethany away, since this is his baby sister, but it's certainly an issue that you seem to disagree with. I don't think Hawke should have simply stood by while Grace killed Ser Thrask, since both of them were right in front of him. I don't see the issue here - it's not as though I'm arguing that Hawke should have pulled a Neo and started killing every templar in the Gallows via The Matrix.

I know this has moved on but I'm catching up and wanted to respond to this.

Um, what the hell? What exactly do you think you're going to do to Cullen to prevent him from taking Bethany to the tower? Are you going to kill a Templar Knight-Captain?

Yes, I think killing Cullen is a better option than letting Bethany get taken away to a Circle of Magi given what Hawke has heard about the place. The protagonist has seen Karl, heard what Anders has said, and can hear what Kerras says to his templars about "saving the pretty one" for himself, so I think it's worth the risk to protect a family member over doing nothing. I don't see why you're offended at the prospect of Hawke protecting his baby sister.

Monica21 wrote...

What on earth would that gain you?

If Hawke is making that decision at that moment, it's all about saving Bethany. Protecting Bethany from getting tortured, made tranquil, or getting killed.

Monica21 wrote...

Why would anyone think that's a good idea? 

Why would any brother do nothing while his baby sister is getting abducted to a place where he knows mages are getting made tranquil against Chantry law? Even if Hawke isn't certain about the claims being made against the Circle of Kirkwall, it's not something I'd ever gamble my sister's life and humanity on.

Monica21 wrote...

If you lose, at the very least you go to jail and at worst you either get killed or made tranquil since you're an apostate.

Hawke isn't an apostate if Bethany survived. Hawke is either a warrior or a rogue.

Monica21 wrote...

You have very irrational responses to things.

It's irrational to want to protect your little sister? I disagree strongly with this claim.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's irrational to want to protect your little sister? I disagree strongly with this claim.

It's irrational to believe you've got plot armor that grants you immunity to challenging an entire army in the middle of a city.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 septembre 2011 - 03:33 .

[dragonfire100]

I did why? because SHE KILLED A MAN THAT DID NOTHING WRONG AND SAID IT WAS GOOD SHE TRIED TO KILL YOU WHEN YOU TAKE THE QUNARE TO HIS PEOPLE AND SHE TRIED TO KILL YOU AGAIN AND GET PEOPLE TO JUMP YOU so yeah i wanted to kill her if this is "no spoilers" please tell me now because i cant tell.

[Monica21]

DPSSOC wrote...
Adding Knight Captain to the list of things you've only killed one of?

Not sure what you mean. 

If you've got Bethany around you're either a warrior or rogue (unless something changed in a patch since I started my last game).  So Tranquility doesn't seem like a danger but still death very possible.  Also the likelihood of torture in either case until they break you and you reveal the location of your two apostate friends, Marethari, and Fenryel (if not in the Circle) who in turn will be tortured until they break and reveal the location of any others they know about (or die, torture can be messy like that).  Bethany will probably be in for much of the same.

Correct about the warrior/rogue bit. I was thinking on his earlier statement about his apostate wanting to kill Leliana and was confusing the two. But yes, you've made some good points about what will likely happen to a Hawke who manages to survive the confrontation. And even if you do survive and make it out of Kirkwall (with your mom in tow, which really seems a bit selfish considering what she was trying to do there) you will be hunted.

[Dave of Canada]

Monica21 wrote...

And even if you do survive and make it out of Kirkwall (with your mom in tow, which really seems a bit selfish considering what she was trying to do there) you will be hunted.

Don't forget about Gamlen following along too, I doubt he'd be fine with a few dead Templar in his house.

[DPSSOC]

Dragonfire I think you're thinking Petrice, Nightingale is an agent of the Divine in the Faith Quest which is part of the DLC that gives you Sebastian.

Monica21 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Adding Knight Captain to the list of things you've only killed one of?

Not sure what you mean.

There are scarce few enemies in the game you only kill one of.  You only ever kill one First Enchanter, one Knight Commander, and one High Dragon for example.  If memory serves you never kill a Knight Captain, so killing Cullen would allow you to add "Knight Captain" to the list of things you've only killed one of.

[happy_daiz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes, I think killing Cullen is a better option than letting Bethany get taken away to a Circle of Magi given what Hawke has heard about the place. The protagonist has seen Karl, heard what Anders has said, and can hear what Kerras says to his templars about "saving the pretty one" for himself, so I think it's worth the risk to protect a family member over doing nothing. I don't see why you're offended at the prospect of Hawke protecting his baby sister.

Kill Cullen? What a crazy idea. You don't mean that. Wait. You do? OMG, you can't mean that. I have to be reading that wrong. That would be blasphemy!
I'd gladly hand Bethany over to Meredith, Quentin, or even a demon before I'd kill Cullen.

OK, I admit, I wouldn't, but I was always annoyed that Hawke didn't have any way to stop Bethany getting taken away. My femHawke had balls the rest of the time; where were they then?

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Yes, I think killing Cullen is a better option than letting Bethany get taken away to a Circle of Magi given what Hawke has heard about the place. The protagonist has seen Karl, heard what Anders has said, and can hear what Kerras says to his templars about "saving the pretty one" for himself, so I think it's worth the risk to protect a family member over doing nothing. I don't see why you're offended at the prospect of Hawke protecting his baby sister.

I'm not offended, I just think it's incredibly stupid. You're risking the well-being of your entire family, not to mention an even greater risk to Bethany if you lose. You've already aided Cullen in Tarohne's plan and either killed Idunna or turned her over. You can get Cullen on your side. Instead of fighting him, you're much better off making sure he's at least protecting her. 

If Hawke is making that decision at that moment, it's all about saving Bethany. Protecting Bethany from getting tortured, made tranquil, or getting killed.

Metagaming for a moment, but none of that happens, and Bethany is never at the risk of that. Not to mention that she's happier as a Circle Mage than as a Warden. And what are Bethany's wishes at that time? Why do you get to steamroll over them?

Why would any brother do nothing while his baby sister is getting abducted to a place where he knows mages are getting made tranquil against Chantry law? Even if Hawke isn't certain about the claims being made against the Circle of Kirkwall, it's not something I'd ever gamble my sister's life and humanity on.

Choosing to fight Cullen is gambling your sister's life and your mother's and your uncle's. You're risking far more by fighting him.

It's irrational to want to protect your little sister? I disagree strongly with this claim.

It's not irrational to want to protect her. It's irrational to want to kill a policeman who comes to my house to take my fugitive brother to jail. 

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Why would any brother do nothing while his baby sister is getting abducted to a place where he knows mages are getting made tranquil against Chantry law?

Because taking action means, at best, dooming the entire family, not to mention his friends, to a life on the run.  Leandra lived on the run from the day she agreed to run off with Malcolm, Hawke lived on the run for about half his life, only in the last 10 years has the family been able to remain in one location long enough to build up a life.  The Blight took that away and you made the journey to Kirkwall, and busted your balls getting into and through the expedition to ensure they never have to run again.  Doing nothing means putting Bethany in danger, which she expresses she is willing to do, taking action means forcing your family and friends back into the life your parents tried for years to get out of.

[Xilizhra]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Why would any brother do nothing while his baby sister is getting abducted to a place where he knows mages are getting made tranquil against Chantry law?

Because taking action means, at best, dooming the entire family, not to mention his friends, to a life on the run.  Leandra lived on the run from the day she agreed to run off with Malcolm, Hawke lived on the run for about half his life, only in the last 10 years has the family been able to remain in one location long enough to build up a life.  The Blight took that away and you made the journey to Kirkwall, and busted your balls getting into and through the expedition to ensure they never have to run again.  Doing nothing means putting Bethany in danger, which she expresses she is willing to do, taking action means forcing your family and friends back into the life your parents tried for years to get out of.

And admittedly, Bethany makes it fairly clear that she's quite tired of running.

It's not irrational to want to protect her. It's irrational to want to kill a policeman who comes to my house to take my fugitive brother to jail.

It's not irrational to want to, but it wouldn't be a particularly good move to actually do so. Luckily, you get to dish out righteous payback to the templars for this at the end.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 23 septembre 2011 - 03:55 .

[thats1evildude]

happy_daiz wrote...

OK, I admit, I wouldn't, but I was always annoyed that Hawke didn't have any way to stop Bethany getting taken away. My femHawke had balls the rest of the time; where were they then?

There was no way to win. Just because we only saw one templar with Cullen doesn't mean there weren't reinforcements waiting outside. And if Hawke fought and lost, then it's very likely that Bethany, Leandra and even Gamlen would be executed. Cullen even said that they had vacated the charges for harbouring an apostate at the request of the viscount.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 septembre 2011 - 04:07 .

[The Baconer]

Sure, sending the Divine's agent back to Val Royeaux in a bag would certainly be entertaining, but it would only hasten the Chantry to initiate an Exalted March. You can't build another Imperium when all the mages are already dead.

[Augustei]

dragonfire100 wrote...

I did why? because SHE KILLED A MAN THAT DID NOTHING WRONG AND SAID IT WAS GOOD SHE TRIED TO KILL YOU WHEN YOU TAKE THE QUNARE TO HIS PEOPLE AND SHE TRIED TO KILL YOU AGAIN AND GET PEOPLE TO JUMP YOU so yeah i wanted to kill her if this is "no spoilers" please tell me now because i cant tell.

Think your getting Sister Nightingale confused with Sister Petrice. Nightingale is Leliana's codename

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

OK, I admit, I wouldn't, but I was always annoyed that Hawke didn't have any way to stop Bethany getting taken away. My femHawke had balls the rest of the time; where were they then?

There was no way to win. Just because we only saw one templar with Cullen doesn't mean there weren't reinforcements waiting outside. And if Hawke fought and lost, then it's very likely that Bethany, Leandra and even Gamlen would be executed. Cullen even said that they had vacated the charges for harbouring an apostate at the request of the viscount.

The Magistrate (not the Viscount) is mentioned by Cullen if Hawke spared his son. Regardless, events unfold the same way. And Hawke has killed more dangerous people than two templars. We see that he came back from an expedition where he defeated an Ancient Rockwraith, so I don't see why two men would pose a problem. Or why Hawke shouldn't have tried to save his sister instead of standing idly by, doing nothing.

[Todd23]

I think Cullen is more lenient then people give him credit. I told him "I'm a mage!" and he did nothing. Although that may be testament to his stupidity, he even said after that: "They're not like you or me."

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Magistrate (not the Viscount) is mentioned by Cullen if Hawke spared his son. Regardless, events unfold the same way. And Hawke has killed more dangerous people than two templars. We see that he came back from an expedition where he defeated an Ancient Rockwraith, so I don't see why two men would pose a problem. Or why Hawke shouldn't have tried to save his sister instead of standing idly by, doing nothing.

You're equating "dangerous" with "important" and that's just silly. Yes, a rock wraith is more dangerous than Cullen but the rock wraith is not an arm of the law, which Cullen most definitely is. Could Hawke kill him? Probably. Should he? Absolutely not.

So far your argument isn't much more than HAWKE MAD! HAWKE SMASH!

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Magistrate (not the Viscount) is mentioned by Cullen if Hawke spared his son.

Fair enough.

LobselVith8 wrote...

 We see that he came back from an expedition where he defeated an Ancient Rockwraith, so I don't see why two men would pose a problem.

Reinforcements. Waiting outside. Like I suggested.

What magical version of DA2 were you playing that the only battlles you ever fought involved enemies that showed up only at the start of the fight?

And Hawke didn't beat that Ancient Rock Wraith alone. S/he would have had to fight the templars alone, though.

Also:

DPSSOC wrote...

Because taking action means, at best, dooming the entire family, not to mention his friends, to a life on the run.  Leandra lived on therun from the day she agreed to run off with Malcolm, Hawke lived on the  run for about half his life, only in the last 10 years has the family been able to remain in one location long enough to build up a life.  The
Blight took that away and you made the journey to Kirkwall, and busted your balls getting into and through the expedition to ensure they never have to run again..

Xilizhra wrote...

And admittedly, Bethany makes it fairly clear that she's quite tired of running.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 septembre 2011 - 04:26 .

[Monica21]

Todd23 wrote...

I think Cullen is more lenient then people give him credit. I told him "I'm a mage!" and he did nothing. Although that may be testament to his stupidity, he even said after that: "They're not like you or me."

Cullen is incredibly lenient. Yes, there are some writing issues, but he's telling me all the time about hearing rumors about my sister, yet he never investigates them. I choose to take it as a warning that if she shows herself to be an apostate he'll have to do something about it, but he's not doing anything about just yet.

[Augustei]

Todd23 wrote...

I think Cullen is more lenient then people give him credit. I told him "I'm a mage!" and he did nothing. Although that may be testament to his stupidity, he even said after that: "They're not like you or me."

Thats because Hawke doesn't actually say hes a mage if you pick that option.

[TEWR]

regarding Bethany, it's just a simple matter of the game not showing enough Templars there. Given Kirkwall's Templars' stance regarding mages, I expected a minimum of 50 Templars standing outside the hovel with Cullen (and maybe Meredith) leading them.

I also have to say that being underground for 2 weeks with a ****load of treasure to carry up during the last week will tire a person.

Regarding Petrice, it's just a very poor but-thou-must that could've been better to say why Hawke can't kill her immediately.

The problem isn't that Hawke can't kill Petrice. It's that he isn't given an incentive to be unable to kill Petrice. Had Petrice said she would expose Hawke's mageness/Bethany's mageness to the Templars, then Hawke would be forced to side with her. She could say that she has heard whispers of Hawke's name from his/her time with Athenril/Meeran from her contacts among the Faithful, who lived in Darktown/Lowtown. Hawke wouldn't be a notorious person, but Hawke would be known a little bit by then. It wouldn't be enough to deter her however, because this actually works out better for her. She could say that the Faithful are all over Lowtown and Darktown at all times of the day, and that some are around her hovel (which would be why she chose that hovel). If Hawke killed her, they would see him/her walking out and would report him to the Templars, and thus Hawke would be in a deep pile of ****.

Basically, she would blackmail Hawke and Hawke would be forced to comply. You need to be given a good reason for a but-thou-must.

edit: ehhh.... the Qunari one wouldn't work unless it happened at the end of the quest where Hawke threatens to kill her, if Hawke didn't try to refuse to do the quest upon finding out about Ketojan.

^That's what I wrote on another thread.

I don't mind that Hawke fails. I just want him to try his best to make sure something doesn't fail, even if that something will inevitably fail.

My problems with Leliana's cameo in Faith are that her dialogue was worded poorly (in my opinion and other peoples') and that Hawke can't say "Well, while the Resolutionists may not be helping things, Meredith's the primary problem here".

Failure to prevent something does not mean inability to try to prevent something (may not have phrased that right, but hopefully the point comes across).

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 septembre 2011 - 04:33 .

[phaonica]

TJPags wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I'm wondering why you think Meredith's threat that "the people will demand blood" near the end of the game is imaginary and not to be considered seriously, but Leliana's claim that the Chantry might march against Kirkwall (at that point with less reason) is to be considered a dire threat.

Because Meredith's position goes against the concept that the people of Thedas want mages free.  Thus, Meredith, the crazy mage hater, must be wrong.

Leliana's threat, however, reinforces the danger to mages and the danger of the evil Chantry.  Thus, must be true.

Perspective.  It's all about perspective.

It certainly seems that way. For what other reason is the threat of an Exalted March more certain or more dangerous than the threat of a local mob? If that mob is not a threat, neither is Leliana.

Modifié par phaonica, 23 septembre 2011 - 04:48 .

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The problem isn't that Hawke can't kill Petrice. It's that he isn't given an incentive to be unable to kill Petrice.

She does give Hawke a rather sizeable amount of money; Shepherding Wolves has the second-highest payout of any Act 1 main quest after The Long Way Home. And considering that you're raising money for the expedition …

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 septembre 2011 - 04:42 .