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[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The problem isn't that Hawke can't kill Petrice. It's that he isn't given an incentive to be unable to kill Petrice.

She does give Hawke a rather sizeable amount of money; Shepherding Wolves has the second-highest payout of any Act 1 main quest after The Long Way Home. And considering that you're raising money for the expedition …

except Hawke isn't paid until the very end, after she disappears. Hawke doesn't know how much he'll be paid or if he'll even be paid at all.

And if someone wanted to kill a Qunari and asked me to help hoping I would die too just to instigate a war, I'd want to try to kill her too, only to have her explain why her death wouldn't benefit me.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Lob, you're off your rocker now.

I don't think wanting my protagonist to protect Kirkwall from an Exalted March means any such thing.

TJPags wrote...

1.  You're last thread about this was about how anti mage she is.  You contemplated killing her in that one, didn't you?  This one is about how you should kill her . . .and why?  Because she's anti-mage.  After all, why ELSE would there be an Exalted March?  Why ELSE would you complain about her "fall to magic" line?

My last threads were about Aldernon. A while back, I made a thread about Leliana's personality in "Faith," and now I'm addressing that I would have had my protagonist kill 'Sister Nightingale' to protect Kirkwall from an Exalted March that she seems to be endorsing. If Hawke has lived in Kirkwall for nearly a decade, then I imagine he might want to keep the city from falling to an Exalted March. If Leliana openly admits she isn't sure what's behind the unrest (and I provided the dialogue attesting to this), then why should Hawke do nothing but stand idly by while Leliana returns to Orlais to tell the Divine to attack Kirkwall?

TJPags wrote...

2.  If you thought Leliana was the one considering calling for an Exalted March, go play it again.  And read the lore about who can call an Exalted March again.  I disagree with you here because you are wrong.

I never claimed Leliana had the authority to declare an Exalted March against Kirkwall, I addressed that it seemed to me that Leliana would encourage the Divine in favor of an Exalted March as her representative, and the agent who was sent to investigate the unrest in the city. Given that Leliana seems to have made her judgement about the city but she admits that she isn't certain about what the cause of the unrest is, I don't think Kirkwall should be condemned.

TJPags wrote...

3.  You specifically said you made this thread to continue a conversation you were having with someone.  Sounds like prime PM territory to me.  But whatever.

This is a discussion about a character in the Dragon Age 2 story, based on her role in a quest that transpires in the official campaign.

TJPags wrote...

4.  So, you're not so much protecting your home, just postponing its inevitable destruction?  Ensuring it, actually, since as I said, Leliana walks away NOT ready to suggest it to the Divine.  That's assuming your Ferelden Hawke gives 2 craps about the City where, as you point out repeatedly, mages are persecuted in so many horrid ways, the KC is a mage hating nutcase, your mage sister is dragged off to possible rape, tranquil, and torture, and is run illegally by a dictator-like Knight Commander.  What is there to like, exactly?

If Leliana is arguing in favor of an Exalted March, isn't she the one who could ensure an attack on the city? Wouldn't it then be in the best interests of the people living in the city for Leliana not to return to Orlais? If Hawke kills her, then tells Grand Cleric Elthina something besides the truth (perhaps that Sister Nightingale simply never showed up), then the Divine would never know that Hawke killed Leliana.

TJPags wrote...
 
5. You've never espoused killing Meredith?  Really?  Okay, whatever you say.

I've never said Hawke should kill Meredith in Acts I and II. I said Hawke should publicly condemn Meredith's dictatorship once he became Champion of Kirkwall, since he doesn't seem to do anything for three years after the Arishok's defeat (or departure).

TJPags wrote...
 
6.  Oh, my spelling error is such a compelling argument in your favor.

You don't need to side with my argument, you're welcome to disagree. However, an Exalted March would threaten the people of Kirkwall - the nobles in Hightown, the refugees in Darktown, the humans in the human districts, and the elves in the Alienage. I'd imagine that Hawke has people that he cares about, and he might want to do everything in his power to protect Kirkwall from falling to an army.

TJPags wrote...
 
7.  And what does Leliana being dead or alive have to do with Hawke caring about Kirkwall?  The topic - as you stated in the first post - was whether to kill Leliana.  Yet you spend a lot of posts discussing whether she should have stayed dead in Origins.  Now, while I agree she should have, THOSE HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER.  Do you really not get that?

I'm saying that I can see my protagonist killing Leliana because he cares about Kirkwall, and doesn't want the city to fall to an Exalted March. My opinion certainly isn't the only one on what could be done.

TJPags wrote...
 
And honestly, killing Leliana because she's a threat is, as I said before, dumb.  I send an agent to investigate whether I should invade someplace.  Those I send her to investigate kill her.  That place is gone.  Very soon.  And very badly.  Do you not get that?

Why would Hawke tell Elthina that he killed Leliana? If he's trying to save the city, then killing Leliana would be about trying to prevent an Exalted March. Hawke could tell the Grand Cleric anything besides the truth, and we can see that Hawke can successfully lie to Elthina without her figuring out the truth.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

except Hawke isn't paid until the very end, after she disappears. Hawke doesn't know how much he'll be paid or if he'll even be paid at all.

She does mention that this is a paying job fairly early on. And when you confront her, she hands you a money pouch with the words "Take your pay and go".

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 septembre 2011 - 04:59 .

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes, I think killing Cullen is a better option than letting Bethany get taken away to a Circle of Magi given what Hawke has heard about the place. The protagonist has seen Karl, heard what Anders has said, and can hear what Kerras says to his templars about "saving the pretty one" for himself, so I think it's worth the risk to protect a family member over doing nothing. I don't see why you're offended at the prospect of Hawke protecting his baby sister.

I'm not offended, I just think it's incredibly stupid.

I don't think it's stupid to want to protect your sister. I'd rather risk my life than do nothing for a family member.

Monica21 wrote...

You're risking the well-being of your entire family, not to mention an even greater risk to Bethany if you lose.

Bethany is already at risk of getting raped, tortured, or getting made tranquil. Ser Kerras, the Circle mages, and Karl made these possibilities clear to Hawke by the time Cullen comes to take Bethany away.

Monica21 wrote...

You've already aided Cullen in Tarohne's plan and either killed Idunna or turned her over. You can get Cullen on your side. Instead of fighting him, you're much better off making sure he's at least protecting her. 

I think it's asinine to do nothing for your sister when the place she's being sent to could end up robbing your sister of her humanity.

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Hawke is making that decision at that moment, it's all about saving Bethany. Protecting Bethany from getting tortured, made tranquil, or getting killed.

Metagaming for a moment, but none of that happens, and Bethany is never at the risk of that. Not to mention that she's happier as a Circle Mage than as a Warden. And what are Bethany's wishes at that time? Why do you get to steamroll over them?

Because Hawke wouldn't want his baby sister to be at risk of getting tortured, raped, killed, or turned tranquil. All of these possibilities are made clear as possible dangers to Circle mages. Why should Hawke stand idly by and do nothing when his sister is going to be imprisoned in a place where he knows a Circle mage was made tranquil illegally? Bethany could have ended up getting violated like Alain was. Or turned tranquil like Karl was. Those are risks that a brother would have wanted to protect his sister from.

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why would any brother do nothing while his baby sister is getting abducted to a place where he knows mages are getting made tranquil against Chantry law? Even if Hawke isn't certain about the claims being made against the Circle of Kirkwall, it's not something I'd ever gamble my sister's life and humanity on.

Choosing to fight Cullen is gambling your sister's life and your mother's and your uncle's. You're risking far more by fighting him.

Hawke is risking his sister's humanity by doing nothing.

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's irrational to want to protect your little sister? I disagree strongly with this claim.

It's not irrational to want to protect her. It's irrational to want to kill a policeman who comes to my house to take my fugitive brother to jail. 

When the prison tortures, rapes, murders, and gives prisoners lobotomies illegally, it's not irrational at all.

[Urzon]

It's fascinating to watch some of these forum discussions. Sometimes though, it is like watching paint dry.... repetitive... unchanging...paint.

They aren't going to make Leliana killable, and she will most likely play a part in DA3. There is no point in staying angry at something you can't change.

Oh and....

"Rabble"

"Rabble"

"Rabble"

"Rabble"

"Rabble"

"Rabble"

"Rabble! Rabble! RABBLE!"

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

except Hawke isn't paid until the very end, after she disappears. Hawke doesn't know how much he'll be paid or if he'll even be paid at all.

She does mention that this is a paying job fairly early on. And when you say "I oughta kill you", she responds by handing you coin.

 she does? I don't remember her saying it's a paying job 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 septembre 2011 - 04:55 .

[LobselVith8]

Urzon wrote...

It's fascinating to watch some of these forum discussions. Sometimes though, it is like watching paint dry.... repetitive... unchanging...paint.

They aren't going to make Leliana killable, and she will most likely play a part in DA3. There is no point in staying angry at something you can't change.

Oh and....

"Rabble"

"Rabble"

"Rabble"

"Rabble"

"Rabble"

"Rabble"

"Rabble! Rabble! RABBLE!"

I think people can have civil discourse and disagree on the issues. There's no reason to take disagreements personally.

[The Baconer]

thats1evildude wrote...
She does give Hawke a rather sizeable amount of money; Shepherding Wolves has the second-highest payout of any Act 1 main quest after The Long Way Home. And considering that you're raising money for the expedition …

So the money would be on her corpse, then. Sounds like a win-win to me.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

 she does? I don't remember her saying it's a paying job 

Yep. Just before you save her from the Lowtown thugs, she tells the robber that she's paying well for a task that she needs done. Then, when you save her, she invites Hawke to the warehouse and says "You must need coin. Everyone here does."

And when you confront her, she hands Hawke a coin pouch with the words "Take your pay and go."

I'm just getting that from this video. Of course, her comments change depending on your own. I remember my own conversation with Petrice being slightly different, and yours might have been as well.

The Baconer wrote...

So the money would be on her corpse, then. Sounds like a win-win to me.

It doesn't quite work that way in a video game. Remember the Tevinter slavers at the end of the quest "Wayward Son"? If you kill their leader, a search of his body turns up a few pieces of silver. But if you convince Varric to con the slaver, he suddenly produces a pouch with three or four sovereigns.

In other words, the slaver only has the money if Varric weasels it out of him. And if you killed Petrice, you probably wouldn't get her money.

It's a classic case of Schrodinger's Quest Rewards: the money both exists and does not exist.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 septembre 2011 - 05:20 .

[Xilizhra]

What magical version of DA2 were you playing that the only battlles you ever fought involved enemies that showed up only at the start of the fight?

I admit, I laughed at this. But there is a point; if you attacked Cullen, you'd have a decent chance of being jumped by templar paratroopers.

Hawke is risking his sister's humanity by doing nothing.

I actually think it's more a risk to her humanity to attack. Given the positioning in the room, it's likely that the templars could Silence her and then use her as a shield while they left the house, and Hawke doesn't have any backup at the moment considering Bethany doesn't actually want to fight. If Hawke is known to be a rising noble, Bethany could well wind up Tranquilized as retribution for Hawke's attempted interference.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 23 septembre 2011 - 05:07 .

[Sabariel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

except Hawke isn't paid until the very end, after she disappears. Hawke doesn't know how much he'll be paid or if he'll even be paid at all.

She does mention that this is a paying job fairly early on. And when you say "I oughta kill you", she responds by handing you coin.

 she does? I don't remember her saying it's a paying job 

At one point, Petrice does say "you must need coin, everyone here does" which implies she's willing to pay for Hawke's services.

....That sounded much less dirty in my head

[thats1evildude]

Sabariel wrote...

...That sounded much less dirty in my head

Hell, I'd still hit it.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 septembre 2011 - 05:18 .

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't think it's stupid to want to protect your sister. I'd rather risk my life than do nothing for a family member.

What you're failing to see is that you're not only risking your life, you're risking the lives of all your family members (including Bethany's) by even attempting to fight back. If you simply can't see that, then every argument you make in favor of killing Cullen is illogical and irrational.

[The Baconer]

thats1evildude wrote...
It doesn't quite work that way in a video game. Remember the Tevinter slavers at the end of the quest "Wayward Son"? If you kill their leader, a search of his body turns up a few pieces of silver. But if you convince Varric to con the slaver, he suddenly produces a pouch with three or four sovereigns.

In other words, the slaver only has the money if Varric weasels it out of him. And if you killed Petrice, you probably wouldn't get her money. It's a classic case of Schrodinger's Quest Rewards.

I'm discussing whatever reasons Hawke might have for letting Petrice live. That makes sense from a metagaming standpoint, not an RPing one. Either way, there's still a solution:

Accept Reward>Kill Petrice Afterward

Bada-bing.

Modifié par The Baconer, 23 septembre 2011 - 05:20 .

[thats1evildude]

That's still metagaming, though.. It's one thing to look at the situation and say "Oh, we should have killed Petrice in Act 1", but you have the benefit of hindsight. There's really nothing to indicate that she's going to be a threat to Hawke in the future; her beef is with the qunari, not you.

As it is, she hired you for a job (albeit a job that was a complete set-up) and then paid you handsomely for completing it.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 septembre 2011 - 06:08 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

That's still metagaming, though.. It's one thing to look at the situation and say "Oh, we should have killed Petrice in Act 1", but you have the benefit of hindsight. There's really nothing to indicate that she's going to be a threat to Hawke in the future; her beef is with the qunari, not you.

As it is, she hired you for a job (albeit a job that was a complete set-up) and then paid you handsomely for completing it.

That's actually not accurate at all. She seeks to expel the Qunari and deliberately set up something to instigate a war, and even when she leaves she's still going to continue down that path. The Qunari aren't just going to go "Sure we'll leave!". They're warriors first and foremost, and if they are provoked they will fight back.

She's clearly a threat to Kirkwall. Should she have been taken out? Maybe, but I'd prefer it if the plot demanded she stay alive in a believable way that involves her blackmailing Hawke.

[The Baconer]

thats1evildude wrote...

That's still metagaming, though. It's one thing to look at the situation and say "Oh, we should have killed Petrice in Act 1", but you have the benefit of hindsight. At that point in the game, you've basically upset her plans. She's clearly a nutterl, but there's really nothing to indicate that she's going to be a threat to Hawke in the future; her beef is with the qunari, not you.

You can say "I oughta kill you" to Petrice, and her response is " I'm not fighting you." So if you want her dead, it comes down to murdering her. And she pays you off quite handsomely.

Uhh, no. My very first playthrough I picked the "I should kill you now" option with every intent to back that statement up. The entire quest is one big ploy to get you killed, and I believe one good turn deserves another. I certainly wouldn't loose any sleep (from a metagaming and RPing perspective) from 'murdering' her and walking off with the money anyway.

[thats1evildude]

Meh. The threat Petrice poses at that point in the game isn't any greater than that of the Arishok, who tells you as early as Act 1 that he's kicking around the idea of taking over the city.

And really, she was hardly the only zealot in the Chantry that felt threatened by the qunari. Would it really have made such a difference if you DID kill Petrice just to have another conspirator take her place in Act 2?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 septembre 2011 - 05:59 .

[The Baconer]

thats1evildude wrote...

Meh. The threat Petrice poses at that point in the game isn't any greater than that of the Arishok, who tells you as early as Act 1 that he's kicking around the idea of taking over the city.

And really, she was hardly the only zealot in the Chantry that felt threatened by the qunari. Would it really have made such a difference if you DID kill Petrice, just to have another conspirator take her place in Act 2?

I'm not really concerned with the threat she poses to Kirkwall. It has more to do with the fact that she blatantly tries to get Hawke killed, and you can't return to the favor.

And you can't say "Well you can't just kill everyone with your Mary Sue powers", at that point, Hawke and friends have cut a bloody swath through a Qunari hunting party. What is a single Templar and a frail Chantry sister compared to that?

Modifié par The Baconer, 23 septembre 2011 - 06:02 .

[thats1evildude]

Oh, you could probably kill her quite easily. That templar might put up a fight, but Petrice herself is defenceless.

For my part, I also picked the "I ought to kill you" option, but I wasn't upset that Petrice walked out of there alive. Her plans went ******-up, and I got a stack of sovereigns and some quest XP. Plus, I got to kill a bunch of qunari, which always makes me happy.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 septembre 2011 - 06:17 .

[Sabariel]

thats1evildude wrote...

That's still metagaming, though.. It's one thing to look at the situation and say "Oh, we should have killed Petrice in Act 1", but you have the benefit of hindsight. There's really nothing to indicate that she's going to be a threat to Hawke in the future; her beef is with the qunari, not you.

As it is, she hired you for a job (albeit a job that was a complete set-up) and then paid you handsomely for completing it.

And yet all your companions tell you: "She'll be trouble", "She'll be back" and I'm like: "I KNOW! That's why I wanted to kill the cow!"

Modifié par Sabariel, 23 septembre 2011 - 06:28 .

[thats1evildude]

I don't see what that has to do with my love of killing qunari.

Actually, the only one I really felt strongly about was Ketojan. I wish I could have convinced him to live. That saddened me more than the sister angered me. In the end, I didn't care that Petrice walked away; she was like Arvaarad, another zealot in city filled to the brim with them. I might have even allied with her under different circumstances.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 septembre 2011 - 06:43 .

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm saying that I can see my protagonist killing Leliana because he
cares about Kirkwall, and doesn't want the city to fall to an Exalted
March. My opinion certainly isn't the only one on what could be done.

At what point in the story would your protagonist have taken a serious blow to the head making him think killing the divines agent would be in the interests of Kirkwall and  cause him to believe that hes doing it because he doesn't want the city to fall to an exalted march? The divines considering an exalted march do you think her agent being murdered would suddenly make her change her mind?

LobselVith8 wrote...
Why would Hawke tell Elthina that he killed Leliana? If he's trying to
save the city, then killing Leliana would be about trying to prevent an
Exalted March. Hawke could tell the Grand Cleric anything besides the
truth, and we can see that Hawke can successfully lie to Elthina without
her figuring out the truth.

Prevent it? killing the divines right hand is about as likely to prevent an exalted march as well I cant think of an example atm but its not going to prevent an exalted march thats crazy talk

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 23 septembre 2011 - 06:51 .

[Gabey5]

it would have been cooler if you could ATTEMPT to kill her and fail..

[TEWR]

Just because Hawke lies to Elthina about Leliana's death doesn't mean an Exalted March won't happen.

The Divine could still see that Kirkwall is a threat. She could think that Leliana died at the hands of the mages and still call for an Exalted March.

Frankly, I don't want to kill her so much as just tell her to sit down, shut up, and hear what the real problems are in the city from Hawke.