585 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Just because Hawke lies to Elthina about Leliana's death doesn't mean an Exalted March won't happen.

The Divine could still see that Kirkwall is a threat. She could think that Leliana died at the hands of the mages and still call for an Exalted March.

Frankly, I don't want to kill her so much as just tell her to sit down, shut up, and hear what the real problems are in the city from Hawke.

I want that so much more than a kill her option. Or simply an oppertunity to ask:
Hawke: Do you really want to call an exalted march?

Of course if Leliana had answered that question with a yes, an exalted march is going to happen no matter what I would want to kill her (and have her resurrected again, since Leliana appearently is immortal.) But if Hawke thinks that an exalted march is going to be called  no matter what, I can't see why she shouldn't kill Leliana. There is nothing to lose at that point.

[Yuqi]

 I didn't entertain any thought of killing Leliana, Id id want to kill Zevran though.


If she died in origins this is how she was REALLY brought back : 

There were seven magical peices of lyrium spread throughout Thedas. The divine collected all the peices,summoned the old god, and made a wish.Lelliana was brought back to life with the wish, the end.

Modifié par Yuqi, 23 septembre 2011 - 11:04 .

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes, I think killing Cullen is a better option than letting Bethany get taken away to a Circle of Magi given what Hawke has heard about the place. The protagonist has seen Karl, heard what Anders has said, and can hear what Kerras says to his templars about "saving the pretty one" for himself, so I think it's worth the risk to protect a family member over doing nothing. I don't see why you're offended at the prospect of Hawke protecting his baby sister.

I'm not offended, I just think it's incredibly stupid.

I don't think it's stupid to want to protect your sister. I'd rather risk my life than do nothing for a family member.

So you'd risk your life for one family member to doom all the others.  It's not stupid to want to protect your sister but in this particular instance it is stupid to act on that impulse.  As I pointed out the best case scenario is a life on the run; your mother won't survive it, your sister doesn't want it, and your Uncle would sell out the lot of you to be free of it.  So you'd have a situation similar to Warden Bethany - she's alive but she's not allowed to actually live and she hates you for it.  All because you couldn't swallow your pride and let Bethany make her own choices (she's just as aware of the dangers as you are).

Anything short of the best case scenario involves you, your family, and your friends being imprisoned, tortured, the mages Tranquilled (including Bethany), and probably executed. 

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think it's stupid to want to protect your sister. I'd rather risk my life than do nothing for a family member.

What you're failing to see is that you're not only risking your life, you're risking the lives of all your family members (including Bethany's) by even attempting to fight back. If you simply can't see that, then every argument you make in favor of killing Cullen is illogical and irrational.

If two templars are killed in a hovel in a bad part of Kirkwall, who is going to tell anyone that Hawke was complicit in killing two templars? There's no evidence that Hawke was involved, and I'm certain Hawke could call in a favor to Ser Thrask if he needed to protect his family while he got his sister out of Kirkwall.

Hawke and his moiety crew kill a plethora of templars in Hightown (if Hawke kills Kerras), and that doesn't lead to the templars investigating Hawke. The fortune in the Deep Roads was found, Leandra could have her old family estate back, but why should Hawke stand idly by and do nothing when his sister will risk losing her very humanity to a place where her jailors break the law with no repercussions?

DPSSOC wrote...

So you'd risk your life for one family member to doom all the others. It's not stupid to want to protect your sister but in this particular instance it is stupid to act on that impulse. 

I respectfully disagree. I don't see why should Hawke should do nothing when Hawke is informed of how bad the Circle of Kirkwall is. Bethany could easily end up getting raped like Alain, or being made tranquil like Karl.

DPSSOC wrote...

As I pointed out the best case scenario is a life on the run; your mother won't survive it, your sister doesn't want it, and your Uncle would sell out the lot of you to be free of it. 

The Hawke family has run from the templars all their lives, so that isn't the best case scenerio. There's no evidence that Leandra would perish if she ran with Hawke and it's not certain she would need to leave if no one was aware of what had happened to Cullen and the other templar (especially if Ser Thrask intervened), Bethany wouldn't be tranquil if she isn't in the Circle of Kirkwall, and I don't see why Gamlen wouldn't keep his mouth shut when he doesn't tell the templars about apostate Hawke for years, even after Hawke becomes a noble with wealth and a mansion.

DPSSOC wrote...

So you'd have a situation similar to Warden Bethany - she's alive but she's not allowed to actually live and she hates you for it.  All because you couldn't swallow your pride and let Bethany make her own choices (she's just as aware of the dangers as you are).

I'd prefer my sister to hate me and keep her humanity and free will than to recognize me but have no humanity at all because she was made tranquil.

DPSSOC wrote...

Anything short of the best case scenario involves you, your family, and your friends being imprisoned, tortured, the mages Tranquilled (including Bethany), and probably executed. 

Anything short of the best case scenerio involves Hawke doing what he can to protect someone he's supposed to look out for. Whether Hawke lives or dies, it's better than doing absolutely nothing at all when your sister's humanity is at stake.

[whykikyouwhy]

I always figured that Hawke doing what (s)he can to protect loved ones involved assessing each situation and determining when to make the best move. While we may not have been able to see the inner mechanics of Hawke's mind (the cogs, the cheese wheels in motion, etc), that scene, to me, has always been about the unseen decision as to whether or not to be run through by a templar sword, or have one of your faamily members skewered instead. That's the set-up and staging. Seemed pretty clear to me.

But at some point, I just expect to see a link to "I Hate Hawke" shirts being sold on zazzle or something. Because hate is such a lovely thing to buy.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

I always recruited Leliana, because Alistair begged, and... puppy eyes. But she decorated camp and I figured that was pretty much it. Leliana fans got a DLC, a DA2 cameo... okay. Whatever. Now there are rumors she's in the new DLC. If they keep inflicting her on us, I am going to look for a permanent defogger.

She likes the Maker so much, it's not really fair to keep them apart.

 

Same here, especially once I got Zev and respecced him. Leliana and Wynne sat in camp, donating their culinary expertise to save my Wardens from Alistair's cooking.

She keeps showing up like a bad rash, I agree. Of all the characters to repeatedly inflict on me, leliana ranks near the bottom of Origins companions or NPCs that I wanted to see return.

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think it's stupid to want to protect your sister. I'd rather risk my life than do nothing for a family member.

What you're failing to see is that you're not only risking your life, you're risking the lives of all your family members (including Bethany's) by even attempting to fight back. If you simply can't see that, then every argument you make in favor of killing Cullen is illogical and irrational.

If two templars are killed in a hovel in a bad part of Kirkwall, who is going to tell anyone that Hawke was complicit in killing two templars? There's no evidence that Hawke was involved, and I'm certain Hawke could call in a favor to Ser Thrask if he needed to protect his family while he got his sister out of Kirkwall.

Hawke and his moiety crew kill a plethora of templars in Hightown (if Hawke kills Kerras), and that doesn't lead to the templars investigating Hawke. The fortune in the Deep Roads was found, Leandra could have her old family estate back, but why should Hawke stand idly by and do nothing when his sister will risk losing her very humanity to a place where her jailors break the law with no repercussions?

I think even Emeric and the City Guard could figure out what happened, even assuming that Cullen and the other Templar are the only ones there. Especially since the hovel is Hawke's house, and it's extremely unlikely that Cullen went to gather up Bethany without telling a soul. How is this "no evidence"? 

I haven't killed Kerras so I don't know how that plays out.

You don't know what you have until after you get back and until after Bethany is taken. And what makes a nouveau riche Kirkwaller so special? Arl Eamon's son had to go the Circle. The De Launcets had to send their son to the Circle. Your last name and the fact that you may or may not have the money to move to Hightown at the end of Act 1 doesn't mean anything. 

[jlb524]

esper wrote...

I want that so much more than a kill her option. Or simply an oppertunity to ask:
Hawke: Do you really want to call an exalted march?

Of course if Leliana had answered that question with a yes, an exalted march is going to happen no matter what I would want to kill her (and have her resurrected again, since Leliana appearently is immortal.) But if Hawke thinks that an exalted march is going to be called  no matter what, I can't see why she shouldn't kill Leliana. There is nothing to lose at that point.

Leliana isn't responsible for the callings or endings of Exalted Marches.

[dragonflight288]

Let's not forget that Bethany has her own choices, and is perfectly free to make them. If we know templars are on our heels and the templars are at there when Hawke returns, then you can be sure more templars know about it. Ask any Cullen fan, he isn't stupid. lol.

Now if Hawke kills those two templars, we don't know if they are the only ones there or not, but it will be pretty obvious that Hawke was involved. The killing took place in Gamlen's hovel when the templars were taking Bethany away. Quite frankly, Bethany is lucky that they simply didn't gut her right then and there for being an apostate. They did that to 14 year old Aneirin.

But also remember that Hawke has just spent weeks in the deep roads, fighting darkspawn with Varic and whoever else went down with them. Living on a diet of deep mushrooms, while carrying the loot they gathered. Bartrand cut off Varic and Hawke from the expedition so they didn't have any of Bodhan's supplies available to eat or drink. I'm pretty sure they were about ready to collapse.

But even if Hawke does succeed, then what? You effectively told Bethany her own choices and what she wants doesn't even matter to you. That despite her being a grown woman, she isn't allowed to make her own choices. You will have to flee Kirkwall and the entire trip into the deep roads would have been for nothing. You can't sell all the valuables and make a lot of money when you're a wanted murderer and a criminal. The viscount wouldn't even deal with you.

[Xilizhra]

Ask any Cullen fan, he isn't stupid. lol.

"But I'm a mage."
"Mages aren't people like you and me."

[Wulfram]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But even if Hawke does succeed, then what? You effectively told Bethany her own choices and what she wants doesn't even matter to you. That despite her being a grown woman, she isn't allowed to make her own choices. You will have to flee Kirkwall and the entire trip into the deep roads would have been for nothing. You can't sell all the valuables and make a lot of money when you're a wanted murderer and a criminal. The viscount wouldn't even deal with you.

Bethany can make her own choices when there aren't guys with swords making them for her.  The point of the trip was to keep Bethany out of the Gallows, so letting her get taken makes it pointless.  Varric is quite capable of selling the valuables himself and passing a share of the proceeds on to Hawke or his family.

[jlb524]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ask any Cullen fan, he isn't stupid. lol.

"But I'm a mage."
"Mages aren't people like you and me."

Doesn't that just make him a douche?

dragonflight288 wrote...

Living on a diet of deep mushrooms,

I hope they aren't hallucinogenic.

Modifié par jlb524, 23 septembre 2011 - 03:46 .

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...
If two templars are killed in a hovel in a bad part of Kirkwall, who is going to tell anyone that Hawke was complicit in killing two templars? There's no evidence that Hawke was involved, and I'm certain Hawke could call in a favor to Ser Thrask if he needed to protect his family while he got his sister out of Kirkwall.

#1 Anyone in Lowtown would sell you out, it's a sad fact of the poor that their cooperation comes remarkably cheap.

#2 You're assuming there are no other Templars present to apprehend an apostate which is made all the more ridiculous once you realize Cullen knows about her relation to you.  Hawke proves himself to be dangerous when confronted (you is good in teh fightz) and it would only be logical that his sister, raised in the same environment by the same parents, is equally if not more dangerous.

#3 If a murder happens in your house with no explanation guess who's top of the suspect list.

#4 Unless you contend that Cullen and his one Templar just happened upon Bethany doing magic and apprehendd her do you honestly believe he told no one?

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
So you'd risk your life for one family member to doom all the others. It's not stupid to want to protect your sister but in this particular instance it is stupid to act on that impulse. 

I respectfully disagree. I don't see why should Hawke should do nothing when Hawke is informed of how bad the Circle of Kirkwall is. Bethany could easily end up getting raped like Alain, or being made tranquil like Karl.

Because of the impact it would have on the rest of the family.  Are Leandra and Gamlen not worth your concern (ok maybe not Gamlen)?  As I pointed out if Hawke acts they suffer, one way or another

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
As I pointed out the best case scenario is a life on the run; your mother won't survive it, your sister doesn't want it, and your Uncle would sell out the lot of you to be free of it. 

The Hawke family has run from the templars all their lives, so that isn't the best case scenerio. There's no evidence that Leandra would perish if she ran with Hawke and it's not certain she would need to leave if no one was aware of what had happened to Cullen and the other templar (especially if Ser Thrask intervened), Bethany wouldn't be tranquil if she isn't in the Circle of Kirkwall, and I don't see why Gamlen wouldn't keep his mouth shut when he doesn't tell the templars about apostate Hawke for years, even after Hawke becomes a noble with wealth and a mansion.

Leandra pales at the thought of going to a different city in Act 1, if she's forced to take a life on the run she either won't be physically able to keep up (again beginning of Act 1 shows she's not exactly in peak physical shape) and perish, or with the one thing she had to look forward to (a stable life in her old home) lost forever she'll simply lose the will to live.

Thrask isn't going to step in for this.  He assisted and kept quiet about Kerass because he was planning to do wrong (in Thrask's eyes).  You don't have that benefit with Cullen, he was just a Templar doing his duty.

Gamlen hasn't sold you out because he has not been overly inconvenienced.  You really think a guy like him wouldn't say, "Screw this." after having to constantly pack up and run?  I'd give him two weeks until he points you out to the next Templar he sees.

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
So you'd have a situation similar to Warden Bethany - she's alive but she's not allowed to actually live and she hates you for it.  All because you couldn't swallow your pride and let Bethany make her own choices (she's just as aware of the dangers as you are).

I'd prefer my sister to hate me and keep her humanity and free will than to recognize me but have no humanity at all because she was made tranquil.

And what about what she'd prefer?  What about what she wants?  Bethany states, time and again in Act 1, that she's tired of running.  She asks Aveline to look into the Circle for her.  Top that off with her telling Hawke not to interfere and you ever think maybe she wants to go to the Circle, even being aware of the dangers?

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Anything short of the best case scenario involves you, your family, and your friends being imprisoned, tortured, the mages Tranquilled (including Bethany), and probably executed. 

Anything short of the best case scenerio involves Hawke doing what he can to protect someone he's supposed to look out for. Whether Hawke lives or dies, it's better than doing absolutely nothing at all when your sister's humanity is at stake.

Yes there is a risk, a chance, that Bethany could be made Tranquil (though she doesn't strike me as even the small trouble making type so she's probably safe) or be otherwise assaulted; you are trading that possibility for the certainty of a life of misery.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

phaonica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I would imagine killing Leliana would have to do with the fact that she seems to be confirming she'll endorse an Exalted March against Kirkwall. I think that any protagonist who wants to protect his home would do anything to save it. If Leliana returns and endorses an Exalted March, I imagine an attack would happen sooner than if she went AWOL because she was killed and nobody found out what happened to her...And this thread doesn't have anything to do with the dichotomy between mages and templars, it has to do with saving Kirkwall from destruction.

I'm wondering why you think Meredith's threat that "the people will demand blood" near the end of the game is imaginary and not to be considered seriously, but Leliana's claim that the Chantry might march against Kirkwall (at that point with less reason) is to be considered a dire threat.

Because Meredith's position goes against the concept that the people of Thedas want mages free.  Thus, Meredith, the crazy mage hater, must be wrong.

I thought it had to do with the premise that Meredith is ordering the execution of an entire population of people for an act that they didn't commit because she wants to appease the hypothetical mob, while Leliana seems to be saying she'll encourage an Exalted March against Kirkwall since she was sent to investigate the situation and doesn't seem to be dissuaded from sacking an entire city despite not having all the facts.

And the Warden-Commander of Amaranthine can explain why appeasing the mob isn't a good thing.

TJPags wrote...

Leliana's threat, however, reinforces the danger to mages and the danger of the evil Chantry.  Thus, must be true.

Perspective.  It's all about perspective.

Leliana admits she doesn't even know the source of the unrest, only that it may involve the Resolutionists, so how does her revelation to Hawke do anything but address that the city will condemned simply because Leliana has a theory on the issue? Humans, elves, nobles, commoners - countless men, women, and children would all perish if Divine Justina V launched an attack on the city, so it's not about the dichotomy between mages and templars, but about the survivial of the city. What does ideology have to do with surviving the wrath of an army?

[phaonica]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I thought it had to do with the premise that Meredith is ordering the execution of an entire population of people for an act that they didn't commit because she wants to appease the hypothetical mob, while Leliana seems to be saying she'll encourage an Exalted March against Kirkwall since she was sent to investigate the situation and doesn't seem to be dissuaded from sacking an entire city despite not having all the facts.

But you have said that Meredith's hypothetical mob is imaginary. You have implied that, despite what Meredith would have you believe, there would be no mob to or not to appease because there is no evidence that the mages Meredith wants to kill are involved with the destruction of the Chantry, except the misguided conclusions that Meredith might propose to the mob.

So why is the Divine's hypothetical Exalted March not imaginary? You said yourself that Leliana had no actual evidence that the mages targeted by the Exalted March are involved with the unrest, yet she would take whatever misguided conclusions she had made to the Divine.

Do you think the Divine would ask less questions than a mob?

Modifié par phaonica, 23 septembre 2011 - 07:12 .

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

phaonica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I would imagine killing Leliana would have to do with the fact that she seems to be confirming she'll endorse an Exalted March against Kirkwall. I think that any protagonist who wants to protect his home would do anything to save it. If Leliana returns and endorses an Exalted March, I imagine an attack would happen sooner than if she went AWOL because she was killed and nobody found out what happened to her...And this thread doesn't have anything to do with the dichotomy between mages and templars, it has to do with saving Kirkwall from destruction.

I'm wondering why you think Meredith's threat that "the people will demand blood" near the end of the game is imaginary and not to be considered seriously, but Leliana's claim that the Chantry might march against Kirkwall (at that point with less reason) is to be considered a dire threat.

Because Meredith's position goes against the concept that the people of Thedas want mages free.  Thus, Meredith, the crazy mage hater, must be wrong.

I thought it had to do with the premise that Meredith is ordering the execution of an entire population of people for an act that they didn't commit because she wants to appease the hypothetical mob, while Leliana seems to be saying she'll encourage an Exalted March against Kirkwall since she was sent to investigate the situation and doesn't seem to be dissuaded from sacking an entire city despite not having all the facts.

And the Warden-Commander of Amaranthine can explain why appeasing the mob isn't a good thing.

Wait a moment, why wouldn't the population demand blood?  Most of the population are devout Andrastrians who would no doubt be enraged and horrified at Anders' deeds.  Maker knows the Kirkwallers have plenty of reason to be edgy about mages already, given the above average abomination rate.  Granted, I think a very public execution of Anders would have sufficed for Meredith's purposes, but then again in a mob that kind of anger is very easily fixated on groups and does not dissapate easily.

TJPags wrote...

Leliana's threat, however, reinforces the danger to mages and the danger of the evil Chantry.  Thus, must be true.

Perspective.  It's all about perspective.

Leliana admits she doesn't even know the source of the unrest, only that it may involve the Resolutionists, so how does her revelation to Hawke do anything but address that the city will condemned simply because Leliana has a theory on the issue? Humans, elves, nobles, commoners - countless men, women, and children would all perish if Divine Justina V launched an attack on the city, so it's not about the dichotomy between mages and templars, but about the survivial of the city. What does ideology have to do with surviving the wrath of an army?

  Actually she says that the Resolutionist attack proves their involvement.  Even without her report, the Divine would still call the march if her chief agent went to investigate and never returned.  Why in Thedas would Hawke do that?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 23 septembre 2011 - 07:17 .

[Kelnuin]

If Leliana didn't return then the Divine would have to do something against Kirkwall. Like an ultimatum of "Surrender Kirkwall for occupation or be destroyed." The Divine herself is not the problem but the system, which is why I kill Anders and set Justice free. Anders has created a spark of change, but he cannot be rewarded for that except in history. Anders sacrifice preserves that his change cost him his life and prevents him from killing a bunch of other people.

Leliana plays only a role in the story and killing her does nothing but encourage the Divine to act with greater force. If you play through Meridith's side you will find out about her sister, killing her whole family when possessed by a demon, after the family protected her.

People in general and character's in this story have their reasons for what they do behind their environmental influences (red lyrium idol?). Which is why this type of game is popular. It is not going to have story endings which everyone likes. To do so means that the story would be too open to be as powerful emotionally. Leliana is going to continue to play a roll Anders will become background or the option to kill him would not of appeared.

Besides I am still pissed about the bunny ears on the elves.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

phaonica wrote...


Do you think the Divine would ask less questions than a mob?

  

Probably. From what little I've seen, she seems every bit the moron that Elthina is. The fact she is even considering an exalted march, on a city that is effectively controlled by her templars, and is, by all accounts, Andrastian, tells me she is just as much an overreactive idiot like her predecessors.

If she had anything resembling a brain and really wanted to save Kirkwall, she'd have sent more than leliana to investigate the mess. hell, she shopuld have sent her damned seekers to the Gallows to investigate the very templars that are running Kirkwall, especially Meredith. And this is not only well within her rights, it is also part of her responsibility. But she did not.

[Wulfram]

There is no "fact" that the Divine is considering an exalted march on Kirkwall. That all seems to be interpretation on the part of Elthina, while Leliana's codex strongly suggests that the Divine has plans unknown to the rest of the Chantry.

Modifié par Wulfram, 23 septembre 2011 - 10:08 .

[Heimdall]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

phaonica wrote...


Do you think the Divine would ask less questions than a mob?

  

Probably. From what little I've seen, she seems every bit the moron that Elthina is. The fact she is even considering an exalted march, on a city that is effectively controlled by her templars, and is, by all accounts, Andrastian, tells me she is just as much an overreactive idiot like her predecessors.

If she had anything resembling a brain and really wanted to save Kirkwall, she'd have sent more than leliana to investigate the mess. hell, she shopuld have sent her damned seekers to the Gallows to investigate the very templars that are running Kirkwall, especially Meredith. And this is not only well within her rights, it is also part of her responsibility. But she did not.

Considering the catastrophic collapse of the established circle system and the apparently devestating war that follows, her concern seems more than a little warranted, don't you think?

As for the rest, consider that Meredith's Templars are the ones sending the reports.  Also consider that the Templars and Mages are feeding each other's actions.  A corrupt Templar does something horrid, Mages get angry and panicky.  This leads to some fighting back, escaping, and/or becoming abominations, which leads to further Templar crackdown, which leads to more angry Mages.  Not all Templars are corrupt, I'd even go as far to say that most aren't.  Cullen and Thrask certainly weren't.  If the role of the Resolutionists is to be believed, then they are responsible for giving cause to much of the Templar crackdowns.  Not that Meredith wasn't draconian mind you, but there are guilty Mages too.  The Divine apparently saw as surely as most of us did where this escalation would lead and thought an Exalted March might be necesary to contain the situation.  It seems its conclusion was reached faster than she thought and it all came crashing down anyway.

[Wulfram]

My belief is that, while Kirkwall is the crunch point in a large part because of Meredith, the Resolutionists have been stirring up trouble all over Thedas. Leliana certainly acts like she's tangled with these guys before, and a conspiracy of rebel mages stirring up trouble would go a long way to explaining why the annullment of a single circle triggered a continent wide revolution.

Previous conflicts with them might also explain why Leliana's attitude towards magic seems to have changed from her obvious enthusiasm for it in Origins. Perhaps uncovering a Resolutionist assassination attempt on the Divine is what led to her becoming the Divine's left hand?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Considering the catastrophic collapse of the established circle system and the apparently devestating war that follows, her concern seems more than a little warranted, don't you think?

Seeing how none of these things have happened when leliana shows up, nor will they for a while, I'd say her concern shows she's an idiot. She's talking about an exalted march before Anders bomb, because the mage situation has gotten out of control in Kirkwall. A situation her templars are specifically charged to deal with.

So her concern, on that level, is idiotic. If the mages of Kirkwall have gotten out of control, then she needs to send a team straight to the Gallows. To find out why the templars are failing in their primary duty.

She doesn't. Instead, she sends Leliana to see if kirkwall needs an exalted march called on it because of the resolutionists.

Idiot.

As for the rest, consider that Meredith's Templars are the ones sending the reports.  Also consider that the Templars and Mages are feeding each other's actions.  A corrupt Templar does something horrid, Mages get angry and panicky.  This leads to some fighting back, escaping, and/or becoming abominations, which leads to further Templar crackdown, which leads to more angry Mages.  Not all Templars are corrupt, I'd even go as far to say that most aren't.  Cullen and Thrask certainly weren't.  If the role of the Resolutionists is to be believed, then they are responsible for giving cause to much of the Templar crackdowns.  Not that Meredith wasn't draconian mind you, but there are guilty Mages too.  The Divine apparently saw as surely as most of us did where this escalation would lead and thought an Exalted March might be necesary to contain the situation.  It seems its conclusion was reached faster than she thought and it all came crashing down anyway.

You're missing the point. She should have sent the Seekers to Kirkwall before Anders blew up the Chantry. She should have been investigating her own freaking people first, to find out why the situation has gone to hell.

The guilty mages do not concern me, because if the templars would have been doing their jobs like they are supposed to, it wouldn't be a problem. The fact that they haven't been, and that mages had gotten out of control, is something she should have been taking up with Meredith. Since the mages are under the control and authority of the Chantry and the templars, it is their duty and responsibility to manage and monitor them. They failed.

That's the first thing the divine should be looking into. Why her own system is failing. She doesn't. because she's an idiot.

[Heimdall]

Wulfram wrote...

My belief is that, while Kirkwall is the crunch point in a large part because of Meredith, the Resolutionists have been stirring up trouble all over Thedas. Leliana certainly acts like she's tangled with these guys before, and a conspiracy of rebel mages stirring up trouble would go a long way to explaining why the annullment of a single circle triggered a continent wide revolution.

Previous conflicts with them might also explain why Leliana's attitude towards magic seems to have changed from her obvious enthusiasm for it in Origins. Perhaps uncovering a Resolutionist assassination attempt on the Divine is what led to her becoming the Divine's left hand?

  I didn't see any evidence that she was greatly anti magic in any way.  She expressed only caution of allowing it to run rampant, or rather the destructive and disruptive influence of Mages like the Resolutionists who use blood magic and summon demons.  She certainly never had any enthusiasm for that.

[Heimdall]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Considering the catastrophic collapse of the established circle system and the apparently devestating war that follows, her concern seems more than a little warranted, don't you think?

Seeing how none of these things have happened when leliana shows up, nor will they for a while, I'd say her concern shows she's an idiot. She's talking about an exalted march before Anders bomb, because the mage situation has gotten out of control in Kirkwall. A situation her templars are specifically charged to deal with.

So her concern, on that level, is idiotic. If the mages of Kirkwall have gotten out of control, then she needs to send a team straight to the Gallows. To find out why the templars are failing in their primary duty.

She doesn't. Instead, she sends Leliana to see if kirkwall needs an exalted march called on it because of the resolutionists.

Idiot.

  Just about anyone could see that Kirkwall might be headed in the direction Anders pushed it.  He only speeded the process along.  Knowing that widespread devestating harm could result generates very real very rational concerns, concerns that she took to heart and sent her most trusted agent to investigate.  Why would she assume the problem was on the Templar's end when foreign Mages not in the circle were stirring up much of the trouble?  Besides, Meredith was not incompetent in her duties, just overly harsh in their fulfillment.  What would the Seekers do?  Tell her not to guard the Mages more closely when it is a very real possibility some of them may be working with the Resolutionists?

As for the rest, consider that Meredith's Templars are the ones sending the reports.  Also consider that the Templars and Mages are feeding each other's actions.  A corrupt Templar does something horrid, Mages get angry and panicky.  This leads to some fighting back, escaping, and/or becoming abominations, which leads to further Templar crackdown, which leads to more angry Mages.  Not all Templars are corrupt, I'd even go as far to say that most aren't.  Cullen and Thrask certainly weren't.  If the role of the Resolutionists is to be believed, then they are responsible for giving cause to much of the Templar crackdowns.  Not that Meredith wasn't draconian mind you, but there are guilty Mages too.  The Divine apparently saw as surely as most of us did where this escalation would lead and thought an Exalted March might be necesary to contain the situation.  It seems its conclusion was reached faster than she thought and it all came crashing down anyway.

You're missing the point. She should have sent the Seekers to Kirkwall before Anders blew up the Chantry. She should have been investigating her own freaking people first, to find out why the situation has gone to hell.

The guilty mages do not concern me, because if the templars would have been doing their jobs like they are supposed to, it wouldn't be a problem. The fact that they haven't been, and that mages had gotten out of control, is something she should have been taking up with Meredith. Since the mages are under the control and authority of the Chantry and the templars, it is their duty and responsibility to manage and monitor them. They failed.

That's the first thing the divine should be looking into. Why her own system is failing. She doesn't. because she's an idiot.

  No, the first thing she should be looking into is the cause of the trouble.  And she did, she found that the Resolutionists are stirring up trouble for the Templars, setting off the reaction I mentioned earlier.  Guilty mages should matter to you when judging the divine's actions.  They certainly matter to the Divine and factor into her decision.  Why send Seekers when the source of the troubles is a group of Mages, and thus a Templar issue?  Clearly, she realized that the Templars of Kirkwall were not succeeding in their task, for she thought an Exalted March might be necesary to contain their failure.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 23 septembre 2011 - 11:14 .

[phaonica]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

phaonica wrote...
Do you think the Divine would ask less questions than a mob?

  
Probably. From what little I've seen, she seems every bit the moron that Elthina is. The fact she is even considering an exalted march, on a city that is effectively controlled by her templars, and is, by all accounts, Andrastian, tells me she is just as much an overreactive idiot like her predecessors.

Still, less discerning than a mob? I don't know if I'm convinced that the Divine is more likely to overreact than a mob is...

Modifié par phaonica, 23 septembre 2011 - 10:43 .