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Did anyone else want to kill Sister Nightingale?


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#201
Wulfram

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Lord Aesir wrote...
  I didn't see any evidence that she was greatly anti magic in any way.  She expressed only caution of allowing it to run rampant, or rather the destructive and disruptive influence of Mages like the Resolutionists who use blood magic and summon demons.  She certainly never had any enthusiasm for that.


I'm not saying she's greatly anti-magic.  Just that she seems more concerned about the dangers than when she was saying things like
  • Leliana: It must be a wonderful thing, to be able to weave spells.
  • Wynne: Wonderful? To you, perhaps. Most do not feel the same way
  • Leliana: Oh, what do they know? They are just jealous. The Maker gives you magic; you must use it

Edit:  (Not directed specifically at Lord Aesir) Why assume that the Divine, if she was in fact considering an Exalted March - for which we have no evidence except the speculations of Elthina - wouldn't have been targetting Meredith and the Templars?

Modifié par Wulfram, 23 septembre 2011 - 10:50 .


#202
Heimdall

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Wulfram wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
  I didn't see any evidence that she was greatly anti magic in any way.  She expressed only caution of allowing it to run rampant, or rather the destructive and disruptive influence of Mages like the Resolutionists who use blood magic and summon demons.  She certainly never had any enthusiasm for that.


I'm not saying she's greatly anti-magic.  Just that she seems more concerned about the dangers than when she was saying things like
  • Leliana: It must be a wonderful thing, to be able to weave spells.
  • Wynne: Wonderful? To you, perhaps. Most do not feel the same way
    Leliana: Oh, what do they know? They are just jealous. The Maker gives you magic; you must use it

Edit:  (Not directed specifically at Lord Aesir) Why assume that the Divine, if she was in fact considering an Exalted March - for which we have no evidence except the speculations of Elthina - wouldn't have been targetting Meredith and the Templars?

  I suppose you may be right about Leliana's stance on Magic, she does seem a bit more aware of the dangers inherent to magic.  It doesn't seem like a huge shift to me though.

I think your question is how can we be sure the Exalted March isn't directed at Meredith? (I found the wording a touch confusing)

To anwser:  It would be quite odd for Leliana to be investigating the Resolutionists rather than the Templars if that was the Divine's intent.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 23 septembre 2011 - 11:13 .


#203
TJPags

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I'm almost at the point of simply saying "rabble" here, but instead I'll make a few points:

1. I don't want my sister brought to a place and held against her will. I don't want her jailed, her wishes disregarded, and her freedom curtailed. So . . . .I'm going to stop her from doing what she wants!!!! That makes so little sense, people.

2. Bethany has heard the same stories and tales Hawke has. She met Karl, heard Anders, and confronted crazy tranquil-making raper Templar (Alrik, I think - I've forgotten). And yet . . .SHE STILL WANTS TO GO TO THE CIRCLE!!! But of course, she's just a mage - her opinion doesn't matter.

3. Two Templars. One Hawke. One Bethany. One Leandra, and one Gamlen. Would saving your sister still sound like a great idea if, in the fight, Leandra dies and Gamlen is wounded? Do you see how that's a very real possibility?

4. Cullen went to arrest Bethany. He took a Templar with him. Is it reasonable to assume nobody else knew where he went? No, it's not. So, ignore Bethany's wishes, kill Cullen and his buddy, Leandra dies, Gamlen wounded, and you and Bethany are on the run. Again. Yup - good move there.

5. Fundamental issue here is that some people think Meredith is the sole problem, and the mages are just reacting to her. But view this from the Divine's perspective. She's getting reports from meredith, after all. Meredith is obviously not saying that she's incompetent. She's saying the mages are out of control. Divine sends Leliana to investigate. Hawke - a mage supporting Hawke, as anyone in Kirkwall can attest, since people want to keep pointing out how he can publicly denounce Meredith and all - meets with her. Leliana ends dead. Hawke's just going to lie his way out of that? Sebastian, the devout one, will lie for him about killing an agent of the Divine? Elthinna will? Aveline? The minute the Divine finds out, here comes the army - with orders to post Hawke's head on a stick, along with every member of his family and all his friends. That's how I'd react.

6. Just for the hell of it - RABBLE.

#204
IanPolaris

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phaonica wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

phaonica wrote...
Do you think the Divine would ask less questions than a mob?

  
Probably. From what little I've seen, she seems every bit the moron that Elthina is. The fact she is even considering an exalted march, on a city that is effectively controlled by her templars, and is, by all accounts, Andrastian, tells me she is just as much an overreactive idiot like her predecessors.

Still, less discerning than a mob? I don't know if I'm convinced that the Divine is more likely to overreact than a mob is...


Divine's in the past have proven to have less wisdom and restraint than your typical mob, and the current one seems more of the same honestly.  For starters the seekers should do their damn jobs rather than seeking scapegoats. That would be a really good start...just saying.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  If you read the codex entry on Seekers, one of the reasons the Seekers exist at all is to provide a check on Templar power and to give the Divine an alternative source of intelligence beyond that of the Templars.  If Lelianna were at all competant, it should take her all of five minutes of real investigation to determine that Meredith's intrasigence is probably the root cause of most of Kirkwall's problems...but no.  She is too damn lazy to do her job.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 septembre 2011 - 12:00 .


#205
TJPags

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IanPolaris wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

phaonica wrote...
Do you think the Divine would ask less questions than a mob?

  
Probably. From what little I've seen, she seems every bit the moron that Elthina is. The fact she is even considering an exalted march, on a city that is effectively controlled by her templars, and is, by all accounts, Andrastian, tells me she is just as much an overreactive idiot like her predecessors.

Still, less discerning than a mob? I don't know if I'm convinced that the Divine is more likely to overreact than a mob is...


Divine's in the past have proven to have less wisdom and restraint than your typical mob, and the current one seems more of the same honestly.  For starters the seekers should do their damn jobs rather than seeking scapegoats. That would be a really good start...just saying.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  If you read the codex entry on Seekers, one of the reasons the Seekers exist at all is to provide a check on Templar power and to give the Divine an alternative source of intelligence beyond that of the Templars.  If Lelianna were at all competant, it should take her all of five minutes of real investigation to determine that Meredith's intrasigence is probably the root cause of most of Kirkwall's problems...but no.  She is too damn lazy to do her job.



Or, she might, you know, have a different opinion than yours.  Image IPB

Oh wait - that would make her incompetant, and wrong.  Yea, sorry - forgot how clearly Meredith is the only problem here.

#206
Sons of Horus

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It has been stated that the Resolutionists have engaged in acts of terror and sabotage against the Chantry throughout Thedas. So it would be a higher priority to try to curtail them before investigating Meredith for any rumours of abuse.

Its just a manpower and timescale shortage, as you only see lot of seekers when Cassandra interrogates Varric.

#207
Quething

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TJPags wrote...

I'm almost at the point of simply saying "rabble" here, but instead I'll make a few points:

1. I don't want my sister brought to a place and held against her will. I don't want her jailed, her wishes disregarded, and her freedom curtailed. So . . . .I'm going to stop her from doing what she wants!!!! That makes so little sense, people.


Actually, I don't want my sister to get raped or turned tranquil. Her freedom is certainly also an interest of mine, but in this case it's secondary.

2. Bethany has heard the same stories and tales Hawke has. She met Karl, heard Anders, and confronted crazy tranquil-making raper Templar (Alrik, I think - I've forgotten). And yet . . .SHE STILL WANTS TO GO TO THE CIRCLE!!! But of course, she's just a mage - her opinion doesn't matter.


... honestly, where on Earth are people getting this idea? Bethany does not "WANT TO GO TO THE CIRCLE." Bethany is being dragged to the Circle at swordpoint. What she does not want is for her big sister/brother to get killed trying to stop it, or for her family to have to run away again. Bethany has a huge guilt complex and a very very poor sense of self-preservation; this is after all a girl who will happily die in the Deep Roads even when the Wardens are suggested as an option, just cuz Hawke says so. I have absolutely no doubt she'd straight-up ask for the Tranquil brand if she thought it would make Hawke and Leandra's lives better. If that's not a trade Hawke's willing to accept, then Hawke shouldn't have to act as though s/he does.

The conflict here is a very, very simple one: Bethany's desire for Hawke not to get hurt, versus Hawke's desire for Bethany not to get hurt. If Hawke chooses to ignore Bethany's concern and risk herself to protect Beth anyway, Beth will a) assist Hawke in fighting back, B) go on the run with Hawke, and c) continue to feel exactly the way she's always felt, like it's all her fault the family suffers so much. She denies their agency in accepting the risk of protecting her every bit as much as they deny her agency in wanting to chuck herself at the brainwiping rape pen, so I'd say it's a wash in the end.

And the idea of Cullen alone as a threat to any Hawke just doesn't work. There may be lore justification, sure, and all kinds of totally legit political consequences, but the plain fact is that a gamer is sitting in front of the monitor knowing for a fact "I could eat this guy alive" (which you can; he drops to friendly fire really easily in the endgame), and no amount of after-the-fact justification can overcome that initial understanding of the relative strengths of a PC and a single enemy warrior lieutenant. That makes it a badly written scene and one that needs to be changed. Give us a pan outside the house first of Hawke walking through a full squad of templars and then bursting through the door to find two more, or something. Just attempt to justify a little better why any strongly pro-mage Hawke, much less an impulsive and highly protective one (which the game has been encouraging you to play since the intro), would fear to cut Cullen down right there.

Modifié par Quething, 24 septembre 2011 - 12:50 .


#208
IanPolaris

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TJPags wrote...

Or, she might, you know, have a different opinion than yours.  Image IPB

Oh wait - that would make her incompetant, and wrong.  Yea, sorry - forgot how clearly Meredith is the only problem here.


Frankly I think someone with the perceptiveness of a rock could see that Meredith is the key cause of most of the trouble in Kirkwall at least when it comes to the Templars vs the Mages.  That's not to say that all the mages are blameless, but Meredith really is the core problem as even the Seekers eventually find out and admit.

-Polaris

#209
IanPolaris

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Sons of Horus wrote...

It has been stated that the Resolutionists have engaged in acts of terror and sabotage against the Chantry throughout Thedas. So it would be a higher priority to try to curtail them before investigating Meredith for any rumours of abuse.

Its just a manpower and timescale shortage, as you only see lot of seekers when Cassandra interrogates Varric.


Meredith's dictatorial (and frankly illegal) abuse of power is the key problem here and is causing a hugely important strategic city to be on the edge of revolt and unrest.  Sure the resolutionists may be stirring the pot, but Meredith is the key log.

I can't see much more important things for the Seekers than to stabilize Kirkwall....and no, razing it so that charred timber doesn't stand upon burnt stone doesn't count.

-Polaris

#210
Shadow Fox

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Oh lookie another one of "these" threads.

#211
Heimdall

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IanPolaris wrote...

Sons of Horus wrote...

It has been stated that the Resolutionists have engaged in acts of terror and sabotage against the Chantry throughout Thedas. So it would be a higher priority to try to curtail them before investigating Meredith for any rumours of abuse.

Its just a manpower and timescale shortage, as you only see lot of seekers when Cassandra interrogates Varric.


Meredith's dictatorial (and frankly illegal) abuse of power is the key problem here and is causing a hugely important strategic city to be on the edge of revolt and unrest.  Sure the resolutionists may be stirring the pot, but Meredith is the key log.

I can't see much more important things for the Seekers than to stabilize Kirkwall....and no, razing it so that charred timber doesn't stand upon burnt stone doesn't count.

-Polaris

  No, your missing it.  Meredith's abuses of power are reactionary.  The root is in the deeds of mages like the Resolutionists and a few individual corrupt Templars acting on their own.  They set off the vicious cycle that feeds Meredith's draconian rule.  Meredith is not the root, she is a symptom.  She exasterbates the problem. drastically even, but she doesn't cause it.

The Seekers and the Divine should be concerned about a bunch of rogue blood Mages that are at the root of the issue, Meredith is a secondary concern by comparison.  More to the point, the Divine has to consider that the situation might be beyond salvaging, hence the possability of an Exalted March.

#212
LobselVith8

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[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If two templars are killed in a hovel in a bad part of Kirkwall, who is going to tell anyone that Hawke was complicit in killing two templars? There's no evidence that Hawke was involved, and I'm certain Hawke could call in a favor to Ser Thrask if he needed to protect his family while he got his sister out of Kirkwall.[/quote]

#1 Anyone in Lowtown would sell you out, it's a sad fact of the poor that their cooperation comes remarkably cheap. [/quote]

Who is going to know what happened behind closed doors?

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

#2 You're assuming there are no other Templars present to apprehend an apostate which is made all the more ridiculous once you realize Cullen knows about her relation to you.  Hawke proves himself to be dangerous when confronted (you is good in teh fightz) and it would only be logical that his sister, raised in the same environment by the same parents, is equally if not more dangerous. [/quote]

If there were templars outside of Gamlen's house, I'd imagine Hawke wouldn't be surprised to see two templars inside Gamlen's house. Since we're only shown two templars, I don't see why you think there are more.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

#3 If a murder happens in your house with no explanation guess who's top of the suspect list. [/quote]

Which is why I'd imagine Ser Thrask could easily provide an explanation that didn't involve the Amell family.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

#4 Unless you contend that Cullen and his one Templar just happened upon Bethany doing magic and apprehendd her do you honestly believe he told no one? [/quote]

Hawke could have taken Bethany and left Kirkwall with her. I'm certainly not arguing that Hawke should have stayed in the city if he wanted to protect his sister and take her to safety from the Circle of Kirkwall and its templars.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I respectfully disagree. I don't see why should Hawke should do nothing when Hawke is informed of how bad the Circle of Kirkwall is. Bethany could easily end up getting raped like Alain, or being made tranquil like Karl.[/quote]

Because of the impact it would have on the rest of the family.  Are Leandra and Gamlen not worth your concern (ok maybe not Gamlen)?  As I pointed out if Hawke acts they suffer, one way or another [/quote]

How does Leandra suffer if Bethany is protected from being raped or made tranquil? How does Leandra suffer if two templars are killed and Hawke has a templar ally who could mislead the investigation from hurting Leandra while Hawke gets Bethany out of Kirkwall? Why should Bethany be sacrificed?

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hawke family has run from the templars all their lives, so that isn't the best case scenerio. There's no evidence that Leandra would perish if she ran with Hawke and it's not certain she would need to leave if no one was aware of what had happened to Cullen and the other templar (especially if Ser Thrask intervened), Bethany wouldn't be tranquil if she isn't in the Circle of Kirkwall, and I don't see why Gamlen wouldn't keep his mouth shut when he doesn't tell the templars about apostate Hawke for years, even after Hawke becomes a noble with wealth and a mansion.[/quote]

Leandra pales at the thought of going to a different city in Act 1, if she's forced to take a life on the run she either won't be physically able to keep up (again beginning of Act 1 shows she's not exactly in peak physical shape) and perish, or with the one thing she had to look forward to (a stable life in her old home) lost forever she'll simply lose the will to live. [/quote]

Leandra doesn't pale, she simply doesn't want to go because Kirkwall is her home. There's no mention of Leandra not being physically able to go to another city. Even Hawke's sibling makes no such claim if Hawke suggests leaving the city to attempt to find sanctuary elsewhere.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

Thrask isn't going to step in for this.  He assisted and kept quiet about Kerass because he was planning to do wrong (in Thrask's eyes).  You don't have that benefit with Cullen, he was just a Templar doing his duty. [/quote]

There's no difference in Hawke protecting random strangers and Hawke protecting his sister, so you don't know that Thrask won't settle for this.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

Gamlen hasn't sold you out because he has not been overly inconvenienced.  You really think a guy like him wouldn't say, "Screw this." after having to constantly pack up and run?  I'd give him two weeks until he points you out to the next Templar he sees. [/quote]

So you assume. Gamlen didn't sell Hawke or Bethany out, and apostate Hawke remains free in a mansion while Gamlen remains in his shack for years.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'd prefer my sister to hate me and keep her humanity and free will than to recognize me but have no humanity at all because she was made tranquil.[/quote]

And what about what she'd prefer?  What about what she wants?  Bethany states, time and again in Act 1, that she's tired of running.  She asks Aveline to look into the Circle for her.  Top that off with her telling Hawke not to interfere and you ever think maybe she wants to go to the Circle, even being aware of the dangers? [/quote]

I'm not going to risk my sister getting raped or made tranquil simply because she feels bad that people have looked out for her all her life. I care more about my sister's humanity remaining intact than seeing it permanently gone.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Anything short of the best case scenerio involves Hawke doing what he can to protect someone he's supposed to look out for. Whether Hawke lives or dies, it's better than doing absolutely nothing at all when your sister's humanity is at stake.[/quote]

Yes there is a risk, a chance, that Bethany could be made Tranquil (though she doesn't strike me as even the small trouble making type so she's probably safe) or be otherwise assaulted; you are trading that possibility for the certainty of a life of misery.[/quote]

Mages are being made tranquil against Chantry law, so it doesn't matter that Bethany isn't a troublemaker. A mage was made tranquil because she feel in love with another mage, so that now Ser Alrik commands her. Another mage says she's being made tranquil for no reason by Ser Alrik. I'd never abandon my sister to the Circle of Kirkwall, given what the story reveals to Hawke by the end of Act I.

#213
whykikyouwhy

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LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

#2 You're assuming there are no other Templars present to apprehend an apostate which is made all the more ridiculous once you realize Cullen knows about her relation to you.  Hawke proves himself to be dangerous when confronted (you is good in teh fightz) and it would only be logical that his sister, raised in the same environment by the same parents, is equally if not more dangerous.


If there were templars outside of Gamlen's house, I'd imagine Hawke wouldn't be surprised to see two templars inside Gamlen's house. Since we're only shown two templars, I don't see why you think there are more.

I seem to recall seeing templars here and there around Kirkwall. In fact, Hawke encounters quite a few in Lowtown, for various reasons and at various times. So it would not be unusual for Hawke to pass by a few on the street and not think anything of it. To have them in your house is another matter entirely - a clear sign that something is amiss, and that perhaps the two or three outside in the alley swapping stories from the Rose aren't just there to shoot the bull.

But this all sounds familiar somehow.

And I thought this thread was supposed to be about Leliana...  Image IPB

#214
Heimdall

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LobselVith8 wrote...


DPSSOC wrote...

Thrask isn't going to step in for this.  He assisted and kept quiet about Kerass because he was planning to do wrong (in Thrask's eyes).  You don't have that benefit with Cullen, he was just a Templar doing his duty.


There's no difference in Hawke protecting random strangers and Hawke protecting his sister, so you don't know that Thrask won't settle for this.

  The situation is entirely different.  Thrask changed his tune before Act 3, but after what happened to his daughter he tells you that he believes the Circle is the safest place for Mages.  He wanted Hawke to help him save Mage lives specifically because he doesn't want innocents killed.  He has no qualms about the circle.  Hawke, on the other hand, slaughtered a Templar who was escorting Bethany to the circle, something Thrask supports.  He is not going to intervene to help you after that.

#215
Ryzaki

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Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


DPSSOC wrote...

Thrask isn't going to step in for this.  He assisted and kept quiet about Kerass because he was planning to do wrong (in Thrask's eyes).  You don't have that benefit with Cullen, he was just a Templar doing his duty.


There's no difference in Hawke protecting random strangers and Hawke protecting his sister, so you don't know that Thrask won't settle for this.

  The situation is entirely different.  Thrask changed his tune before Act 3, but after what happened to his daughter he tells you that he believes the Circle is the safest place for Mages.  He wanted Hawke to help him save Mage lives specifically because he doesn't want innocents killed.  He has no qualms about the circle.  Hawke, on the other hand, slaughtered a Templar who was escorting Bethany to the circle, something Thrask supports.  He is not going to intervene to help you after that.


Except that's exactly what he does do if you decide in act 1 to attack the templars to help Grace. :/ 

#216
Urzon

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Leliana is really the Warden's/Grey Wardens' spy in the Chantry.

*Puts on his M.Night Shyamalan voice*

What A Twist!

#217
Monica21

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LobselVith8 wrote...
Who is going to know what happened behind closed doors?

You mean behind the closed doors of Gamlen Amell, who just happened to be harboring an apostate and ohbytheway two Templars are missing or found dead, one of which just happens to be the Knight-Captain, who more than one member of Lowtown saw either on his way to Gamlen's hovel or entering it, and that just happens to be the last time he was seen alive. Yes, who could possibly come to the conclusion that Hawke was responsible? 

Come on. You're making Meredith's RoA look sane by comparison.

Which is why I'd imagine Ser Thrask could easily provide an explanation that didn't involve the Amell family.

Why would Thrask have a reason to help Hawke cover up the murder of his Knight Captain?

How does Leandra suffer if Bethany is protected from being raped or made tranquil? How does Leandra suffer if two templars are killed and Hawke has a templar ally who could mislead the investigation from hurting Leandra while Hawke gets Bethany out of Kirkwall? Why should Bethany be sacrificed?

Leandra has made it quite clear (as has Bethany) that she has no desire to leave Kirkwall. You're making her suffer simply because your actions put her at risk. If you take her with you you're requiring your 50-something mother to live life on the run. 

And why do you assume rape and tranquility? You do realize there are a lot of mages in the Circle who aren't raped and aren't tranquiled, right? Again, you've met Thrask, you've helped Cullen. You can get them on your side. You are treating this situation as if it's unavoidable that Bethany will be raped and tranquiled, nevermind the fact that it doesn't happen.

Leandra doesn't pale, she simply doesn't want to go because Kirkwall is her home. There's no mention of Leandra not being physically able to go to another city. Even Hawke's sibling makes no such claim if Hawke suggests leaving the city to attempt to find sanctuary elsewhere.

Right. She doesn't want to go. So you're going to kill a few Templars because everyone in that house is breaking the law by harboring Bethany and you're going to either take Bethany on the run with you, which she also doesn't want, and leave your mother in poverty. All because you refuse to see that you have the means to keep Bethany safe in the Circle.

There's no difference in Hawke protecting random strangers and Hawke protecting his sister, so you don't know that Thrask won't settle for this.

What Thrask won't do is stand by while you kill his superior.

So you assume. Gamlen didn't sell Hawke or Bethany out, and apostate Hawke remains free in a mansion while Gamlen remains in his shack for years.

Don't jump ahead to Act 2 or pull in a different situation. We don't know why Gamlen stays in Lowtown after Act 1 and it's not relevant. Gamlen didn't have a reason to sell out Bethany in Act 1. If he'd gone to the Templars and attempted to blackmail them into getting his mansion back he'd be much more likely to be jailed rather than getting anything. He may have a terrible poker face but he's not stupid.

I'm not going to risk my sister getting raped or made tranquil simply because she feels bad that people have looked out for her all her life. I care more about my sister's humanity remaining intact than seeing it permanently gone.

How are you keeping your sister's humanity intact by forcing her to run again? Where can she simply be a mage? There's nowhere but the Circle. Even in the Wardens she's Bethany the Warden. She doesn't have to hide anymore and she doesn't have to pretend she's something other than what she is. The Circle is the only place she can simply be Bethany the Mage instead of Bethany the Fugitive.

Mages are being made tranquil against Chantry law, so it doesn't matter that Bethany isn't a troublemaker. A mage was made tranquil because she feel in love with another mage, so that now Ser Alrik commands her. Another mage says she's being made tranquil for no reason by Ser Alrik. I'd never abandon my sister to the Circle of Kirkwall, given what the story reveals to Hawke by the end of Act I.

I really don't know how many times I have to tell you this, but you are not abandoning her. You live in the same city. You have constant contact with the Templars. You have constant contact with the Knight Captain. There is no reason to think that those people will refuse to help you. If nothing else, a word from Cullen would be enough to scare any Boogeyman Templar into staying away from Bethany. 

Your fears are irrational, inconsistent, and not based in any semblance of reason or logic.

Modifié par Monica21, 24 septembre 2011 - 03:47 .


#218
TJPags

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Everyone seems to forget, regarding Thrask, that his concern was the other Templars were going to simply kill the mages out of hand, rather than take them to the Circle as they were supposed to. THAT'S what made him look the other way in that instance.

Makes it rather different than Hawke killing the Knight Commander, who is trying to escort a mage - who is going willingly, btw - to the Circle.

I really think people are overestimating Thrask here. He's a Templar. He believes in the Circle's, and in what Templars are supposed to do. Seems rather far-fetched to think he'd look the other way, or help cover that up.

I also find the contradictory arguments rather odd. In one, Hawke should kill Leliana because he wants to protect his home, which he cares so much about. In the other, Hawke should kill Cullen, then go on the run with Bethany, abandoning that home that he cares so much about that he should kill the Divine's agent to protect.

Consistency would be nice.

#219
TEWR

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Even if you killed Cullen and his goon, what are you going to do with the bodies? Share a cramped hovel with them? Try and sneak them out without getting caught in a city that we're told is full to bursting at all times of the day?

Killing Cullen and his goon isn't the way to go. No doubt that Cullen informed his superior of where he was going.

It's simple really: Bioware gave us a city that was filled with Templars who are absolute pricks when it comes to mages and magic, and should've shown that there were at least 50 Templars waiting outside under the command of Cullen (and maybe Meredith) when they wanted to apprehend Bethany.

Hawke wouldn't be able to kill them all on his own.

#220
IanPolaris

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Lord Aesir wrote...

 No, your missing it.  Meredith's abuses of power are reactionary.  The root is in the deeds of mages like the Resolutionists and a few individual corrupt Templars acting on their own.  They set off the vicious cycle that feeds Meredith's draconian rule.  Meredith is not the root, she is a symptom.  She exasterbates the problem. drastically even, but she doesn't cause it.


No, I am not missing it.   Rogue mages (some of which are maleficar of the worst sort) and rogue templars have always existed and always will exist.  That is part and  parcel with human nature and the setting itself.  It's particularly easy (and dangerous) to be a bloodmage in Kirkwall which means the Templars tend to be less forgiving, but this has been true for over seven hundred years and only now is the city ready to revolt.

What changed?  Meredith, that's what.  Meredith's overweaning, dictatorial, abusive, and in many cases frankly illegal uses of her power and usupation of civil power that she is NOT supposed to have is the very root of the problem.  It is WHY what had been a minor irritant before has suddenly blown up into the verge of an open revolution.

Meredith is the Key Log.  Even a blind nug should be able to see it.

The Seekers and the Divine should be concerned about a bunch of rogue blood Mages that are at the root of the issue, Meredith is a secondary concern by comparison.  More to the point, the Divine has to consider that the situation might be beyond salvaging, hence the possability of an Exalted March.


WRONG.  Rogue bloodmages have always been present.  That means they are NOT the reason that Kirkwall is going up in flames.  Meredith and her frank abuse of power and incompetant leadership is, and a blind nug could see that with any kind of investigation in five minutes....but Lelianna is too lazy to do her damn job.  For that alone she deserves the murder knife right along with her boss and the Grand Cleric (for failing to do their jobs as well).

-Polaris

#221
IanPolaris

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Even if you killed Cullen and his goon, what are you going to do with the bodies? Share a cramped hovel with them? Try and sneak them out without getting caught in a city that we're told is full to bursting at all times of the day?


Hamburger Helper.  Dog eats well for a few days.  No mess and no fuss.

It's not like people (even important people) don't go missing all the time in Low Town.....

-Polaris

#222
TJPags

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IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

 No, your missing it.  Meredith's abuses of power are reactionary.  The root is in the deeds of mages like the Resolutionists and a few individual corrupt Templars acting on their own.  They set off the vicious cycle that feeds Meredith's draconian rule.  Meredith is not the root, she is a symptom.  She exasterbates the problem. drastically even, but she doesn't cause it.


No, I am not missing it.   Rogue mages (some of which are maleficar of the worst sort) and rogue templars have always existed and always will exist.  That is part and  parcel with human nature and the setting itself.  It's particularly easy (and dangerous) to be a bloodmage in Kirkwall which means the Templars tend to be less forgiving, but this has been true for over seven hundred years and only now is the city ready to revolt.

What changed?  Meredith, that's what.  Meredith's overweaning, dictatorial, abusive, and in many cases frankly illegal uses of her power and usupation of civil power that she is NOT supposed to have is the very root of the problem.  It is WHY what had been a minor irritant before has suddenly blown up into the verge of an open revolution.

Meredith is the Key Log.  Even a blind nug should be able to see it.

The Seekers and the Divine should be concerned about a bunch of rogue blood Mages that are at the root of the issue, Meredith is a secondary concern by comparison.  More to the point, the Divine has to consider that the situation might be beyond salvaging, hence the possability of an Exalted March.


WRONG.  Rogue bloodmages have always been present.  That means they are NOT the reason that Kirkwall is going up in flames.  Meredith and her frank abuse of power and incompetant leadership is, and a blind nug could see that with any kind of investigation in five minutes....but Lelianna is too lazy to do her damn job.  For that alone she deserves the murder knife right along with her boss and the Grand Cleric (for failing to do their jobs as well).

-Polaris


I know something else that changed.

An abomination on a mission.

But no, can't be that.  After all, he's a mage.  He's the good guy.

#223
Shadow Fox

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whykikyouwhy wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

#2 You're assuming there are no other Templars present to apprehend an apostate which is made all the more ridiculous once you realize Cullen knows about her relation to you.  Hawke proves himself to be dangerous when confronted (you is good in teh fightz) and it would only be logical that his sister, raised in the same environment by the same parents, is equally if not more dangerous.


If there were templars outside of Gamlen's house, I'd imagine Hawke wouldn't be surprised to see two templars inside Gamlen's house. Since we're only shown two templars, I don't see why you think there are more.

I seem to recall seeing templars here and there around Kirkwall. In fact, Hawke encounters quite a few in Lowtown, for various reasons and at various times. So it would not be unusual for Hawke to pass by a few on the street and not think anything of it. To have them in your house is another matter entirely - a clear sign that something is amiss, and that perhaps the two or three outside in the alley swapping stories from the Rose aren't just there to shoot the bull.

But this all sounds familiar somehow.

And I thought this thread was supposed to be about Leliana...  Image IPB

Almost every Lobselvith8 thread derails into this topic are you really that suprised?

On topic no I like Leliana so I wouldn't want to kill her and it would be stupid for Hawke to do it anyway since she's the only thing keeping the Divine from killing everyone.

#224
TEWR

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IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Even if you killed Cullen and his goon, what are you going to do with the bodies? Share a cramped hovel with them? Try and sneak them out without getting caught in a city that we're told is full to bursting at all times of the day?


Hamburger Helper.  Dog eats well for a few days.  No mess and no fuss.

It's not like people (even important people) don't go missing all the time in Low Town.....

-Polaris



Image IPB I don't think the Mabari would like that. Eating meat is one thing, but eating human meat is different.

Still, as soon as Cullen doesn't report back to the Gallows it's going to raise questions, and given how it's entirely likely he informed his superiors of where he was going, their first stop would be Hawke's little hovel.

Human corpse bits being eaten by a dog and an apostate sister still being all apostate-ish would raise even more questions.

#225
IanPolaris

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TJPags wrote...

I know something else that changed.

An abomination on a mission.

But no, can't be that.  After all, he's a mage.  He's the good guy.


You're wrong about that too.  The mage underground had been present long before Anders and was even a serious thorn in the side of the Kirkwall Templars long before Anders.  Read the Codex Entry on the Spiral Mage.  It's almost certain taht some of these rebel apostates were actually abominations as well.

You also find out in ACT I from Cullen (long before Anders joins the mage underground) that Templar PR has taken a huge hit lately and while Cullen himself doesn't say so, additional investigation easily finds the source of this loss in popularity:  Meredith.

-Polaris