878 réponses à ce sujet

[EternalSea]

D.Kain wrote...
Why would I need to prove THOSE things? I think that Morinth enjoys killing because it is physical pleasure, who she kills is a different question, and WHY she started killing is a different question too. I justify her killing by the fact that she is hunted by justicars. Morinth has no errors in her ways, it's the asari culture in regards to Ardat-Yakshi that does. Morinth would probably stop killing now that Samara is dead, since she doesn't need to do it anymore to survive, unless another justicar shows up. Also there are plenty places in the galaxy where Morinth would be welcome to use her abileties and explore them further - like being a spectre for example. 

Morinth is a good squadmate. Morinth does actually care about Shepard more than most of other squadmates. If I could only choose 1 squad mate from ME2 squad to watch my back it would be Morinth.

Can't tell if serious...

[D.Kain]

EternalSea wrote...

D.Kain wrote...
Why would I need to prove THOSE things? I think that Morinth enjoys killing because it is physical pleasure, who she kills is a different question, and WHY she started killing is a different question too. I justify her killing by the fact that she is hunted by justicars. Morinth has no errors in her ways, it's the asari culture in regards to Ardat-Yakshi that does. Morinth would probably stop killing now that Samara is dead, since she doesn't need to do it anymore to survive, unless another justicar shows up. Also there are plenty places in the galaxy where Morinth would be welcome to use her abileties and explore them further - like being a spectre for example. 

Morinth is a good squadmate. Morinth does actually care about Shepard more than most of other squadmates. If I could only choose 1 squad mate from ME2 squad to watch my back it would be Morinth.

Can't tell if serious...

1) That's my opinion. What I mean by that is that I would do the same were I in her shoes, so basically for me it's not an error.

2) Morinth is there not because collectors need to be stoped but because she want's to help Shepard for helping her.

[Asenza]

@ Dr. Kain,

Let me get this straight;

Because Morinth is hunted by Justicars, she can kill random people.

Because Morinth is hunted by Samara, four-hundred years after the fact, Nef had to die.

Because a Justicar who happens to be her mother, Samara, is trying to stop her from killing people, you are perfectly fine with Morinth killing as many people as she wants.

And you believe that Morinth cares about Shepard far more than say, Tali or Garrus.

And you believe Morinth is not wrong at all, and that now that Samara she is dead she will start doing good for the galaxy.

And you believe Morinth's actions are all excused because Asari society, the society in which most of its members do not even believe Ardat-Yakshi exist, looks down on Ardat-Yakshi.

Have I got that all right? Please tell me that I have somehow misunderstood.

Modifié par Asenza, 27 septembre 2011 - 09:15 .

[D.Kain]

Asenza wrote...

@ Dr. Kain,

Let me get this straight;

Because Morinth is hunted by Justicars, she can kill random people.

Because Morinth is hunted by Samara, four-hundred years after the fact, Nef had to die.

Because a Justicar who happens to be her mother, Samara, is trying to stop her from killing people, you are perfectly fine with Morinth killing as many people as she want.

And you believe that Morinth cares about Shepard far more than say, Tali or Garrus.

And you believe Morinth is not wrong at all, and that now that Samara she is dead she will start doing good for the galaxy.

And you believe Morinth's actions are all excused because Asari society, the society in which most of its members do not even believe Ardat-Yakshi exist, looks down on Ardat-Yakshi.

Have I got that all right? Please tell me that I have somehow misunderstood.

What I highlighted - Samara is trying to stop Morinth from killing people that Morinth is killing BECAUSE Samara is trying to stop her. 

But on overall - aha you got it right. 

[EternalSea]

Ok, where does it say she needs to kill survive? I thought it was like a drug addiction? EIther way though, she's in the wrong. Killing innocents for self pleasure is wrong, and she is fully aware of that.

Or are you going to tell me it's ok for the Reapers to wipe out all life because "YOU ARE BACTERIA!" 


Also, note that when she decides to join you, it's simply a plea out of the fear of Samara who's about to try and kill her. She didn't even know what you're doing, or even if you're on a mission.
Oh, and she tries to kill you again.
               she tries to kill you again.  
                      tries to kill you again.
                                  kill you again.
                                            AGAIN.
How is that caring ? Still can't tell if serious...

[D.Kain]

EternalSea wrote...

Ok, where does it say she needs to kill survive? I thought it was like a drug addiction? EIther way though, she's in the wrong. Killing innocents for self pleasure is wrong, and she is fully aware of that.

Or are you going to tell me it's ok for the Reapers to wipe out all life because "YOU ARE BACTERIA!" 


Also, note that when she decides to join you, it's simply a plea out of the fear of Samara who's about to try and kill her. She didn't even know what you're doing, or even if you're on a mission.
Oh, and she tries to kill you again.
               she tries to kill you again.  
                      tries to kill you again.
                                  kill you again.
                                            AGAIN.
How is that caring ? Still can't tell if serious...

Killing = becoming stronger = can stand up to Samara. And she actually did a pretty good job since they seemed like a match even though Samara is a lot older and more experienced.

Morinth doesn't try to kill you Morinth tries to mate with you, hoping it won't kill you. 

[PMC65]

Raganheart wrote...

*snip* I said her character depth is great and she is an interesting character. What you all are saying (haters) is that she can´t be fixed, once a serial killer always. I think that´s wrong. Everyone deserves a second chance despite their past. When I say she is stable under Shepard, SHE REALLY IS. If not she would be killing squadmates, getting high all the time, and finding the first way out. People say well Morinth made a promise to Shepard then you would be contradicting yourself. You say she can´t be trusted and she loves to kill. Only something trustworthy would give their word to a person and follow through. Guess what she did? Exactly, she went through everything with you and followed orders. She finds Shepard intriguing and has never met someone like this. Maybe Shepard is that person to change her around. All I´m saying is don´t give up on her. She can change for the better or for worse, but she needs the chance.

Not everyone that sees her as a serial killer (or Hannibal Lecter in my case) hates her. That makes her character stand out in the game for me ... her darkness and love of the hunt. If she had displayed any "please help me Shepard" in ME2 I would have yawned out of boredom and Samara's LM would be just another LM to get through. Since I see her as the ultimate predator Samara's mission stands out.

There are going to be fans of hers that love her as a serial killer and leave her on Omega while others want to have other things added to her in ME3 for their enjoyment. For those of us that left her on Omega it is no skin off our noses what they do to her in ME3. We kept her dark & delicious in ME2 ... what they do for the fans that kept her alive is up in the air until ME3 is released. Until then people are arguing for arguments sake, something that happens alot on this board. 

[Asenza]

@ Raganheart,

1) I didn't name anyone in my post so you need to calm down.
2) I have stated that based upon the evidence given to us in the game, there is no indication that she will change her ways.
3) She has a debt of gratitude to help Shepard with their mission. I am surprised at how far she has gone to repay it, but there it is. That would mean that she will not interfere with the mission. Killing everyone on the ship would be interfering. She did give her word, and follow through with it, I'll give you that. But she also gave her word to Nef, "I don't want anything bad to happen to you, love." (Found on the note in Nef's room). And then she killed her. That counts as being a bit less than trustworthy.
4) She's had the chance. Four-hundred years of chances. I can't see how she can get much worse. So unless her character stagnates, she will probably have to change for the better, but after the death of Samara and countless others by Morinth's hands, I personally don't believe she deserves to live a full life after she has taken so many other peoples away. She has deprived so many people, hurt so many. Just because she changes for the better doesn't make all the wrong things she's done go away. But, that's my thought.

Modifié par Asenza, 27 septembre 2011 - 09:29 .

[EternalSea]

D.Kain wrote...

Killing = becoming stronger = can stand up to Samara. And she actually did a pretty good job since they seemed like a match even though Samara is a lot older and more experienced.

Morinth doesn't try to kill you Morinth tries to mate with you, hoping it won't kill you. 

 But smiles deliciously evil when you die. 


Anyway, it'd be extremely akward if she had a sudden sympathetic change, and you know it. 

Besides, I'm intrigued how it will turn out with a confrontation with Aria, I'm sure she said she'd only kill Morinth if she tried it on her. 

[D.Kain]

EternalSea wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Killing = becoming stronger = can stand up to Samara. And she actually did a pretty good job since they seemed like a match even though Samara is a lot older and more experienced.

Morinth doesn't try to kill you Morinth tries to mate with you, hoping it won't kill you. 

 But smiles deliciously evil when you die. 


Anyway, it'd be extremely akward if she had a sudden sympathetic change, and you know it. 

Besides, I'm intrigued how it will turn out with a confrontation with Aria, I'm sure she said she'd only kill Morinth if she tried it on her. 

She smiles delicious BEFORE you die, almost everybody get's that one wrong. She smiles because it was plesurable. Then AFTER you die it shows her back with her hand falling down. Looks sad. 

I don't think Morinth would care for Aria, or maybe I can feed Aria to her so Morinth get's stronger.:happy:

Modifié par D.Kain, 27 septembre 2011 - 09:34 .

[Xilizhra]

But she also gave her word to Nef, "I don't want anything bad to happen to you, love." (Found on the note in Nef's room). And then she killed her. That counts as being a bit less than trustworthy.

Arguably. One could perceive that giving Nef a pleasurable death would be better than life on Omega, albeit only if one's perceptions were sufficiently twisted.

4) She's had the chance. Four-hundred years of chances. I can't see how she can get much worse. So unless her character stagnates, she will probably have to change for the better, but after the death of Samara and countless others by Morinth's hands, I personally don't believe she deserves to live a full life after she has taken so many other peoples away. She has deprived so many people, hurt so many. Just because she changes for the better doesn't make all the wrong things she's done go away. But, that's my thought.

Obviously. Killing her doesn't make the bad things she's done go away either. We can't make any decision based on whether it'll reverse past events because nothing will. I would argue that if she can be provenly rehabilitated, it would be far more productive to not punish her, as it'd serve no useful purpose.

None of this addresses why it's better to have her survive than Samara, an argument I still find somewhat difficult to swallow, but eh.

[GodWood]

Despite my absolute contempt for the entire asari race, I do like Morinth.

[Asenza]

@ Xilizhra,

1) So you're saying a "pleasurable" death, is better than life at all? A promising life as an artist? Nef's mother Diana is alone now, but its ok because Nef died a pleasurable death? That isn't even an argument worthy of making, I can't believe you'd bring that up.

2) Hey, I came here to find out why Morinth fans think its better for her to survive than Samara. If you don't know then I'm lost.

Modifié par Asenza, 27 septembre 2011 - 10:39 .

[Xilizhra]

1) So you're saying a "pleasurable" death, is better than life at all? A promising life as an artist? Nef's mother Diana is alone now, but its ok because Nef died a pleasurable death? That isn't even an argument worthy of making, I can't believe you'd bring that up.

From Morinth's point of view. That's why I put in the "sufficiently twisted" line.

2) Hey, I came here to find out why Morinth fans think its better for her to survive than Samara. If you don't know then I'm lost.

I can think of a few reasons why she could be, but I don't have a single definitive answer for it. Though what I've said in a considerably looser context...

One, Samara's body count is probably considerably higher. And given that her code apparently compels her to make bloody escapes from police custody, that body count probably isn't all criminals.
Two, the Code itself can be considered to be morally repugnant and make many of the deaths it causes illegitimate.
Three, there's the asari custom of imprisoning and covering up the existence of Ardat-Yakshi as a whole, something my Shepard would vastly not rather perpetuate. She's more likely to want to find a cure.
Four, Morinth's personality is based in part largely upon a physical condition; if it was gone or mitigated, her personality would stand a decent change of changing. Samara's state of being is entirely mentally self-imposed.

[D.Kain]

I really want to ask Morinth some things in ME3.

1) What was the most interesting moment in her life?
2) Was she ever in love herself?
3) What did she mean when she was talking about the destiny of the asari?
4) What is she going to do with her life afterwards?

[Asenza]

@ Xilizhra,

"From Morinth's point of view. That's why I put in the "sufficiently twisted" line."

1) You are, again, making up sympathetic motivations for Morinth, and then using it to defend her actions in game. Unless you can point to something in-game that alludes to this, then you have absolutely basis to ground your assumption that Morinth believed she was "helping" Nef by killing her with pleasure and therefore sparing her a life of hardship on Omega. Just because you thought of it, doesn't mean that's the answer. That's just wistful thinking.

"One, Samara's body count is probably considerably higher. And given that her code apparently compels her to make bloody escapes from police custody, that body count probably isn't all criminals."

2) Wrong. Until Samara chased Morinth to Illium, she had never been outside of Asari space before. Given what officer Dara tells Shepard, "If a Justicar kills one of us, no one questions it... she represents the code, our code" in addition to stating that Samara has authority, it means that in Asari space, it is clear that Samara is one allowed to mete out judgement as she sees fit. You don't have to agree with it, because the Asari do. We can reasonably assume that while Samara was in Asari space, she wasn't put in custody, because again, she had authority.

Samara herself states that usually, once a Justicar is involved, peaceful solutions are no longer a possibility. This of course, is a different situation when the police try to put her into custody. Because Samara is no longer in Asari space. If you go somewhere else, even in space, you are held accountable for the laws of the place, not the laws of the place you came from. "... but if she killed a human? Do you think they would respect her authority?" Even though they are not in Asari space, Detective Anaya is willing to accept the fact that she could die. She doesn't want to die, of course, but just as Samara has her duty to the code, the detective has her duty to uphold orders given to her by her superiors. And that isn't me speculating, or just making things up without any support from the narrative; Anaya states that herself when asked directly by Shepard as to why she doesn't disobey her orders. Detective Anaya serves as a cool kind of foil to Samara in that situation.

Asari society accepts Samara and her ideals. We cannot speculate on the amount of people Samara has killed, but because her society accepts her role of authority, then yes, until Samara left Asari space, every kill she made WAS  of a criminal in the eyes of the society in which she lived. So the number of people Samara has killed is completely irrevelant and completely incomparable to Morinth, who isn't any kind of authority figure.


@ D.Kain,

I really don't know what else to say to you.

Modifié par Asenza, 28 septembre 2011 - 01:48 .

[RhiPanda]

@D.Kain, where are you getting it from that Morinth murdering people makes her stronger, because I have not read that anywhere and have found no reference to it in game. The most I can find is on the wiki it states that Morinth was addicted to the high she gets from murdering people via melding.

[D.Kain]

RhiPanda wrote...

@D.Kain, where are you getting it from that Morinth murdering people makes her stronger, because I have not read that anywhere and have found no reference to it in game. The most I can find is on the wiki it states that Morinth was addicted to the high she gets from murdering people via melding.

I have no idea how it works myself. Somehow when she exausts partners nervous system she is sucking it out, becoming stronger. 

Samara was talking about it. And that is why Morinth was able to match in power a matrirch while being a maiden.

Imo that's some kind of magic that has no place in scifi. But  oh well it is what it is. 

[PauseforEffect]

Xilizhra wrote...

Every teammate you just named has a justifiable reason for why they killed. They are not by nature inclined to kill a random person who poses no threat to them.

Well, not Zaeed. He was a murderous criminal seemingly just because.

Even Zaeed, in his self-serving way, was after Vido because of a near fatal betrayal. Otherwise, he will not kill without a paycheck as motivation. He may not be capable of wanting to save someone for altruistic reasons, but he is not compelled to kill for personal pleasure on a regular basis.

She will not change because of Shepard.

As ME3 isn't out, you can't know this.

We do know she has shown no desire to change, no desire to make things better for what she's done.

[RhiPanda]

@D.Kain, at no point did Samara mention anything of the sort that I have noticed and I can't find anything referencing it on the wiki, so could you give me a source for this?

[PauseforEffect]

Raganheart wrote...

Asenza wrote...

RhiPanda wrote...

I understand why people sympathise with Morinth but I really do not agree with it, she is a serial killer and from my point of view undeserving of any sympathy. But I do hope you guys get to learn more about her character etc in ME3, cause it's not like it is gonna affect my game so not gonna get angry about it

That's interesting. I'm trying to sympathise with her. That's why I'm on this thread, trying to understand why people do. But instead, all I'm getting is people making things up, people who think she's cool, and people who are white-washing her past, sanitizing it, and making excuses.

You really are full of s*** then. I have never said any of that. I said her character depth is great and she is an interesting character. What you all are saying (haters) is that she can´t be fixed, once a serial killer always. I think that´s wrong. Everyone deserves a second chance despite their past. When I say she is stable under Shepard, SHE REALLY IS. If not she would be killing squadmates, getting high all the time, and finding the first way out. People say well Morinth made a promise to Shepard then you would be contradicting yourself. You say she can´t be trusted and she loves to kill. Only something trustworthy would give their word to a person and follow through. Guess what she did? Exactly, she went through everything with you and followed orders. She finds Shepard intriguing and has never met someone like this. Maybe Shepard is that person to change her around. All I´m saying is don´t give up on her. She can change for the better or for worse, but she needs the chance.

Have you considered that Morinth is USING Shepard? That conversation with her in Afterlife where her personal pleasures are going to "dark, dangerous places" where she can find fun in her pursuit of power fits into her following Shepard into a suicide mission.
It's also hard to miss the part where she says, "This is going to be fun".
Morinth has Shepard in a very compromised position. Shepard's credibility as a leader to the rest of the squad is dependant on trust, and if they find out that their commander betrayed one of them, it's going to get ugly. The fact that Shepard is worried about Morinth speaking and dressing as herself on the Normandy is evidence that the commander is worried that someone will find out what happened to Samara.
The team is placing their trust and their lives in Shepard's hands. Shepard is placing his/her trust in a serial killer to perpetuate a LIE. A lie that Morinth admits practicing long and hard at, meaning that she has DECEIVED before. A great deal. To many people for a long time.
Morinth is manipulating Shepard, little by little, with every compliment and every suggestive flirting.
EDIT: Also, Raganheart, do be civil. We don't begrudge your opinion of Morinth being a great character. But I insist on a very good reason (several, actually) in giving a serial killer a second chance.

Modifié par PrimalEden, 28 septembre 2011 - 03:44 .

[Asenza]

PrimalEden wrote...

Raganheart wrote...

Asenza wrote...

RhiPanda wrote...

I understand why people sympathise with Morinth but I really do not agree with it, she is a serial killer and from my point of view undeserving of any sympathy. But I do hope you guys get to learn more about her character etc in ME3, cause it's not like it is gonna affect my game so not gonna get angry about it

That's interesting. I'm trying to sympathise with her. That's why I'm on this thread, trying to understand why people do. But instead, all I'm getting is people making things up, people who think she's cool, and people who are white-washing her past, sanitizing it, and making excuses.

You really are full of s*** then. I have never said any of that. I said her character depth is great and she is an interesting character. What you all are saying (haters) is that she can´t be fixed, once a serial killer always. I think that´s wrong. Everyone deserves a second chance despite their past. When I say she is stable under Shepard, SHE REALLY IS. If not she would be killing squadmates, getting high all the time, and finding the first way out. People say well Morinth made a promise to Shepard then you would be contradicting yourself. You say she can´t be trusted and she loves to kill. Only something trustworthy would give their word to a person and follow through. Guess what she did? Exactly, she went through everything with you and followed orders. She finds Shepard intriguing and has never met someone like this. Maybe Shepard is that person to change her around. All I´m saying is don´t give up on her. She can change for the better or for worse, but she needs the chance.

Have you considered that Morinth is USING Shepard? That conversation with her in Afterlife where her personal pleasures are going to "dark, dangerous places" where she can find fun in her pursuit of power fits into her following Shepard into a suicide mission.
It's also hard to miss the part where she says, "This is going to be fun".
Morinth has Shepard in a very compromised position. Shepard's credibility as a leader to the rest of the squad is dependant on trust, and if they find out that their commander betrayed one of them, it's going to get ugly. The fact that Shepard is worried about Morinth speaking and dressing as herself on the Normandy is evidence that the commander is worried that someone will find out what happened to Samara.
The team is placing their trust and their lives in Shepard's hands. Shepard is placing his/her trust in a serial killer to perpetuate a LIE. A lie that Morinth admits practicing long and hard at, meaning that she has DECEIVED before. A great deal. To many people for a long time.
Morinth is manipulating Shepard, little by little, with every compliment and every suggestive flirting.
EDIT: Also, Raganheart, do be civil. We don't begrudge your opinion of Morinth being a great character. But I insist on a very good reason (several, actually) in giving a serial killer a second chance.

Ohh, I had never thought of it that way... Shepard as an accessory to her dark/dangerous places fetish. That makes perfect sense. I just couldn't see it. She's treating the SM as an extreme vacation!

So (I'll be generous) and say that while she has a bit of a debt of gratitude to Shepard for killing Samara, it's more that Shepard is an enabler than any caring for Shepard personally or for the goal of the mission or anything else.

Modifié par Asenza, 28 septembre 2011 - 03:51 .

[PauseforEffect]

PMC65 wrote...

Raganheart wrote...

*snip* I said her character depth is great and she is an interesting character. What you all are saying (haters) is that she can´t be fixed, once a serial killer always. I think that´s wrong. Everyone deserves a second chance despite their past. When I say she is stable under Shepard, SHE REALLY IS. If not she would be killing squadmates, getting high all the time, and finding the first way out. People say well Morinth made a promise to Shepard then you would be contradicting yourself. You say she can´t be trusted and she loves to kill. Only something trustworthy would give their word to a person and follow through. Guess what she did? Exactly, she went through everything with you and followed orders. She finds Shepard intriguing and has never met someone like this. Maybe Shepard is that person to change her around. All I´m saying is don´t give up on her. She can change for the better or for worse, but she needs the chance.

Not everyone that sees her as a serial killer (or Hannibal Lecter in my case) hates her. That makes her character stand out in the game for me ... her darkness and love of the hunt. If she had displayed any "please help me Shepard" in ME2 I would have yawned out of boredom and Samara's LM would be just another LM to get through. Since I see her as the ultimate predator Samara's mission stands out.

There are going to be fans of hers that love her as a serial killer and leave her on Omega while others want to have other things added to her in ME3 for their enjoyment. For those of us that left her on Omega it is no skin off our noses what they do to her in ME3. We kept her dark & delicious in ME2 ... what they do for the fans that kept her alive is up in the air until ME3 is released. Until then people are arguing for arguments sake, something that happens alot on this board. 

*sigh* yes, I am being ridiculously stubborn about this. But I have to question the premise that she's redeemable. If the majority of opinions were more like yours with the understanding of just how dangerous she is, I'd be fine with it.

[PauseforEffect]

Asenza wrote...

Ohh, I had never thought of it that way... Shepard as an accessory to her dark/dangerous places fetish. That makes perfect sense. I just couldn't see it. She's treating the SM as an extreme vacation!

So (I'll be generous) and say that while she has a bit of a debt of gratitude to Shepard for killing Samara, it's more that Shepard is an enabler than any caring for Shepard personally or for the goal of the mission or anything else.

I will also agree that she's helping Shepard partly out of gratitude as well. It still won't stop her from using Shepard for her own ends. After all, she's found someone whom she could convince to help her kill her mother. A new toy!
Her character description even admits it during the suicide mission when you're picking the specialists for each role.

[Xilizhra]

*sigh* yes, I am being ridiculously stubborn about this. But I have to question the premise that she's redeemable. If the majority of opinions were more like yours with the understanding of just how dangerous she is, I'd be fine with it.

If she's not redeemable, she lacks free will and is a non-character. Which may turn out to be the case. I hope it isn't.