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Morinth Fan Thread- The Genetic Destiny of the Asari !!!!!


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#301
Xeranx

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Asenza wrote...

2) Wrong. Until Samara chased Morinth to Illium, she had never been outside of Asari space before. Given what officer Dara tells Shepard, "If a Justicar kills one of us, no one questions it... she represents the code, our code" in addition to stating that Samara has authority, it means that in Asari space, it is clear that Samara is one allowed to mete out judgement as she sees fit. You don't have to agree with it, because the Asari do. We can reasonably assume that while Samara was in Asari space, she wasn't put in custody, because again, she had authority.

Samara herself states that usually, once a Justicar is involved, peaceful solutions are no longer a possibility. This of course, is a different situation when the police try to put her into custody. Because Samara is no longer in Asari space. If you go somewhere else, even in space, you are held accountable for the laws of the place, not the laws of the place you came from. "... but if she killed a human? Do you think they would respect her authority?" Even though they are not in Asari space, Detective Anaya is willing to accept the fact that she could die. She doesn't want to die, of course, but just as Samara has her duty to the code, the detective has her duty to uphold orders given to her by her superiors. And that isn't me speculating, or just making things up without any support from the narrative; Anaya states that herself when asked directly by Shepard as to why she doesn't disobey her orders. Detective Anaya serves as a cool kind of foil to Samara in that situation.

Asari society accepts Samara and her ideals. We cannot speculate on the amount of people Samara has killed, but because her society accepts her role of authority, then yes, until Samara left Asari space, every kill she made WAS  of a criminal in the eyes of the society in which she lived. So the number of people Samara has killed is completely irrevelant and completely incomparable to Morinth, who isn't any kind of authority figure.


Are you really trying to wave off Samara's actions here?  Samara said herself she was involved with a smuggling ring unbeknownst to her (right, but here ymmv).  She was a mercenary.  She's gone outside Asari space and I have never heard her say she, specifically, sticks to Asari space.  It's said that Justicars do, but Samara never says she does and even is able to express an interest in returning to a system (not Asari) that has its own culture to teach the inhabitants whatever.  Sounds like a case of sticking your nose in where it doesn't belong.  If Samara can express it, the intent is there.

And in any case, what does it matter that the Asari accept it.  Those who are killed by her don't like it.  Anaya can accept the prospect of death, but she expressly states that she doesn't like it either.  They all see it as a bad thing.  So how does Samara get a bye here?  And especially in Anaya's case where she and her superiors are serving a more noble goal in trying to prevent a diplomatic incident?  That's something Samara should be doing herself if her cause is so "just", but she doesn't do that.  It takes others who view themselves below her status to try to keep a measure of peace between races/cultures.  Right there in that role, regardless of why, Samara is a potential terrorist.  She knows it and still carries on.  Again, her body count doesn't matter?  I'm sorry, but that's just outright nonsense.

#302
D.Kain

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RhiPanda wrote...

@D.Kain, at no point did Samara mention anything of the sort that I have noticed and I can't find anything referencing it on the wiki, so could you give me a source for this?




4:20

#303
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Xilizhra wrote...

If she's not redeemable, she lacks free will and is a non-character.

Care to explain the logic behind this?

#304
Xilizhra

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If she's not redeemable, she lacks free will and is a non-character.

Care to explain the logic behind this?

If one is incapable of changing one's behavior based on new input, it'd seem that one didn't possess free will. 

#305
PMC65

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Xilizhra wrote...


*sigh* yes, I am being ridiculously stubborn about this. But I have to question the premise that she's redeemable. If the majority of opinions were more like yours with the understanding of just how dangerous she is, I'd be fine with it.

If she's not redeemable, she lacks free will and is a non-character. Which may turn out to be the case. I hope it isn't.


Because the character is not looking for redemption does not mean she lacks free will ... it means that she does not want to live like all the other "good" people. In this day and age we somehow have gotten away from personal responsibility and would love to say that poor Ted Bundy was a victim himself.

If Morinth is turned into a character that is looking for redemption in ME3 ... then I will be 100% glad I left her on Omega. Because the character that I met there was one of the few characters that knew who she was, knew what she wanted and made no apologies about it. The short time that my Shepard spent with her was horrifying and made Nihlus' warnings about the galaxy being more dangerous than we (humanity) knew really driven home with her. As she tried to charm and seduce Shepard I felt that darkness and was praying for Samara to hurry up and get in there ASAP! That Morinth was not incomplete, confused or lacked character ... she was perfect for that moment.

If you wanted more and wanted to add a need for redemption to her character that's fine but don't try and force that idea on others ... we liked Morinth for her darkness. Rarely do we see Hannibal Lecters anymore ... instead we are given vampires who don't kill and serial killers who only kill bad guys.

And now you want to add Morinth to that cheesy list. Posted Image

#306
PauseforEffect

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Xilizhra wrote...


*sigh* yes, I am being ridiculously stubborn about this. But I have to question the premise that she's redeemable. If the majority of opinions were more like yours with the understanding of just how dangerous she is, I'd be fine with it.

If she's not redeemable, she lacks free will and is a non-character. Which may turn out to be the case. I hope it isn't.


Now free will is a very complex debate. Her addiction (and/or condition) may be what's restricting true free will from her. That she is just a paste-on of Samara throughout most of the game can be considered a non-character in people's eyes (and a major complaint amongst her fans, I suspect).
Given the lengths of the debates surrounding Morinth and Samara, I am reaaallly expecting Bioware will give more depth to this.
And though I am opposing you on this debate, I do hope you find some contentment with ME3's outcome.

#307
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Xilizhra wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If she's not redeemable, she lacks free will and is a non-character.

Care to explain the logic behind this?

If one is incapable of changing one's behavior based on new input, it'd seem that one didn't possess free will. 

One may be perfectly capable but steadfastly chooses not to, in a vivid demonstration of free will.

For example, Muslims may continue to refuse to eat pork even though you demonstrate its nutritional values to them. That does not prove that they don't have free will.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 28 septembre 2011 - 04:44 .


#308
Xilizhra

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Because the character is not looking for redemption does not mean she lacks free will ... it means that she does not want to live like all the other "good" people. In this day and age we somehow have gotten away from personal responsibility and would love to say that poor Ted Bundy was a victim himself.

Well, so far as I know, he was highly mentally ill. So yes, he was a victim as well.

That Morinth was not incomplete, confused or lacked character ... she was perfect for that moment.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry here.

If you wanted more and wanted to add a need for redemption to her character that's fine but don't try and force that idea on others ... we liked Morinth for her darkness. Rarely do we see Hannibal Lecters anymore ... instead we are given vampires who don't kill and serial killers who only kill bad guys.

Well, if you killed her, then there won't be much need for you to worry about it, now will there?

One may be perfectly capable but chooses not to, in a vivid demonstration of free will.

True. Whether she finds redemption is a different story from whether she can be redeemed.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 28 septembre 2011 - 04:40 .


#309
D.Kain

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Why don't people understand that if a person is living on his/her own and thinks that other peoples life is nothing and that they don't need anyone, it means that something if awfully wrong. The person WILL be lonely deep inside, and the person is just pissed with everybody if doesn't care for other peoples lives. People like that are not born from a good life. No drug can replace a healthy relationship.

#310
Asenza

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Xeranx wrote...

Are you really trying to wave off Samara's actions here?  Samara said herself she was involved with a smuggling ring unbeknownst to her (right, but here ymmv).  She was a mercenary.  She's gone outside Asari space and I have never heard her say she, specifically, sticks to Asari space.  It's said that Justicars do, but Samara never says she does and even is able to express an interest in returning to a system (not Asari) that has its own culture to teach the inhabitants whatever.  Sounds like a case of sticking your nose in where it doesn't belong.  If Samara can express it, the intent is there.

And in any case, what does it matter that the Asari accept it.  Those who are killed by her don't like it.  Anaya can accept the prospect of death, but she expressly states that she doesn't like it either.  They all see it as a bad thing.  So how does Samara get a bye here?  And especially in Anaya's case where she and her superiors are serving a more noble goal in trying to prevent a diplomatic incident?  That's something Samara should be doing herself if her cause is so "just", but she doesn't do that.  It takes others who view themselves below her status to try to keep a measure of peace between races/cultures.  Right there in that role, regardless of why, Samara is a potential terrorist.  She knows it and still carries on.  Again, her body count doesn't matter?  I'm sorry, but that's just outright nonsense.


First off, I'm not trying to justify or wave off Samara's actions. I'm succeeding in explaining why the narrative justifies her actions. Samara's actions are not equal to Morinth the murderer's. Samara was in a position of authority, killing people that the Asari believed she had every right to kill.  Everything I stated in my previous post is backed up by evidence in the game. Before she was a Justicar, before her Matron days, she was a mercenary. Just like many other Asari are mercenaries. But I wasn't talking about her pre-Justicar days, I was talking about after.

It matters that the Asari accept The Code because it represents their values and ideals. Their... uhh CODE. Samara carries out their values and ideals. Their CODE. She is an instrument of their beliefs. The Asari think of Justicars as superheroes. Who cares what that random eclipse sister that Samara killed as she was presented, thinks about Justicars and their authority? She was wearing a uniform which means that she committed a murder to earn it. She killed someone so she could wear some ugly armour with a group of other ugly-armour wearing people. Samara gave her two or three chances to give up the name of Morinth's ship. That would spare her life. She refused.

I don't want to derail this topic so I won't say anything more about this. PM me if you have more to say, but please don't unless you can address my post with information backed up by the game.

Night all.

Modifié par Asenza, 28 septembre 2011 - 04:44 .


#311
Xilizhra

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PrimalEden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


*sigh* yes, I am being ridiculously stubborn about this. But I have to question the premise that she's redeemable. If the majority of opinions were more like yours with the understanding of just how dangerous she is, I'd be fine with it.

If she's not redeemable, she lacks free will and is a non-character. Which may turn out to be the case. I hope it isn't.


Now free will is a very complex debate. Her addiction (and/or condition) may be what's restricting true free will from her. That she is just a paste-on of Samara throughout most of the game can be considered a non-character in people's eyes (and a major complaint amongst her fans, I suspect).
Given the lengths of the debates surrounding Morinth and Samara, I am reaaallly expecting Bioware will give more depth to this.
And though I am opposing you on this debate, I do hope you find some contentment with ME3's outcome.

We shall see. And hope.

#312
PMC65

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Xilizhra wrote...


Because the character is not looking for redemption does not mean she lacks free will ... it means that she does not want to live like all the other "good" people. In this day and age we somehow have gotten away from personal responsibility and would love to say that poor Ted Bundy was a victim himself.

Well, so far as I know, he was highly mentally ill. So yes, he was a victim as well.


That Morinth was not incomplete, confused or lacked character ... she was perfect for that moment.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry here.


If you wanted more and wanted to add a need for redemption to her character that's fine but don't try and force that idea on others ... we liked Morinth for her darkness. Rarely do we see Hannibal Lecters anymore ... instead we are given vampires who don't kill and serial killers who only kill bad guys.

Well, if you killed her, then there won't be much need for you to worry about it, now will there?


One may be perfectly capable but chooses not to, in a vivid demonstration of free will.

True. Whether she finds redemption is a different story from whether she can be redeemed.


Well, here's hoping that you get the ending you desire as I did mine in relation to Morinth. Posted Image

#313
Xilizhra

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Well, here's hoping that you get the ending you desire as I did mine in relation to Morinth.

Actually, I won't and can't because the ending that I desire has both asari learning each other's points of view. So regardless of what I do, it's an incomplete tragedy.

#314
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PrimalEden wrote...

Given the lengths of the debates surrounding Morinth and Samara, I am reaaallly expecting Bioware will give more depth to this.

I think the lengths of these debates is mainly due to how badly (or, to be more accurate, how *insufficiently*) Morinth is written.

Long serious debates while neither side can convince the other is usually due to an insufficient amount of facts and data. Morinth has less dialogue in total than Kasumi or Zaeed, and yet her plot is arguably more complex than any other ME2 squadmate's (one major factor is she and her mother's long lifespans).

It's as if Morinth's writer quit when she/he was just beginning to flesh out the character, and BioWare didn't bother to find a replacement.

#315
Xilizhra

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Long serious debates while neither side can convince the other is usually due to an insufficient amount of facts and data.

While I personally would just call that "the Internet," I fully agree with the rest of your statement.

#316
PMC65

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Xilizhra wrote...



Well, here's hoping that you get the ending you desire as I did mine in relation to Morinth.

Actually, I won't and can't because the ending that I desire has both asari learning each other's points of view. So regardless of what I do, it's an incomplete tragedy.


Who knows, maybe if you failed the LM both characters will appear in ME3 and you can have that ending you want.
Or there is always fan fiction. Posted Image

At the end of the day if this is life's disappointment, the outcome of a story/character, then we are really blessed in life.

EDIT: SpellingPosted Image

Modifié par PMC65, 28 septembre 2011 - 04:58 .


#317
PauseforEffect

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Xeranx wrote...



Are you really trying to wave off Samara's actions here?  Samara said herself she was involved with a smuggling ring unbeknownst to her (right, but here ymmv).  She was a mercenary.  She's gone outside Asari space and I have never heard her say she, specifically, sticks to Asari space.  It's said that Justicars do, but Samara never says she does and even is able to express an interest in returning to a system (not Asari) that has its own culture to teach the inhabitants whatever.  Sounds like a case of sticking your nose in where it doesn't belong.  If Samara can express it, the intent is there.

And in any case, what does it matter that the Asari accept it.  Those who are killed by her don't like it.  Anaya can accept the prospect of death, but she expressly states that she doesn't like it either.  They all see it as a bad thing.  So how does Samara get a bye here?  And especially in Anaya's case where she and her superiors are serving a more noble goal in trying to prevent a diplomatic incident?  That's something Samara should be doing herself if her cause is so "just", but she doesn't do that.  It takes others who view themselves below her status to try to keep a measure of peace between races/cultures.  Right there in that role, regardless of why, Samara is a potential terrorist.  She knows it and still carries on.  Again, her body count doesn't matter?  I'm sorry, but that's just outright nonsense.


It's not that everything Samara did in her past is acceptable. It is that she admits doing questionable things in her youth as an impulsive maiden. But even then, she avoided doing things that were outright wrong such as participate in a slave trade. Her sense of compassion and honor showed when she saved a group of slaves about to be sold to Collectors.
As a Justicar, Samara is a far more controversial character, a person that is difficult to understand mainly because of that excessively long Code she follows. Nonetheless, there are several factors that work in her defense, mainly that Illium is a world that has an undercurrent of corruption and that Anaya's superiors were suspected by Anaya herself to be involved with the Eclipse organization.
All this however, pales in comparison to the bald-faced evidence against Morinth topped off by her own admissions. It is in defense of Samara that occurs when she is being compared as worse than her serial killer daughter. Sometimes it's not how many people that are killed, it's what kind of people that were killed. Do we mourn the death of an armed merc who knew what she was up against or for the girl who fell in love with someone she did not know would murder her?

#318
D.Kain

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

Given the lengths of the debates surrounding Morinth and Samara, I am reaaallly expecting Bioware will give more depth to this.

I think the lengths of these debates is mainly due to how badly (or, to be more accurate, how *insufficiently*) Morinth is written.

Long serious debates while neither side can convince the other is usually due to an insufficient amount of facts and data. Morinth has less dialogue in total than Kasumi or Zaeed, and yet her plot is arguably more complex than any other ME2 squadmate's (one major factor is she and her mother's long lifespans).

It's as if Morinth's writer quit when she/he was just beginning to flesh out the character, and BioWare didn't bother to find a replacement.


Lol completely agree there. I just say - what comes around goes around. If Morinth is bad, somebody pissed her of. If I treat Morinth good, she will treat me good. :)

Modifié par D.Kain, 28 septembre 2011 - 04:53 .


#319
Xilizhra

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Do we mourn the death of an armed merc who knew what she was up against or for the girl who fell in love with someone she did not know would murder her?

I don't know about you, but I mourn both. Just like I mourn both Samara and Morinth.

#320
NugatRevolution

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All you Morinth-lovers are deluded. She's an evil b*tch who kills people for fun. She knows precisely what she is doing. If she were interested in curing her condition, she would have sought out the Salarians or Humans by now.

She enjoys the hunt and subsequent power that comes from each killing. She's a psychopath who deserves/deserved a far worse fate than she got from Samara.

Modifié par NugatRevolution, 28 septembre 2011 - 05:02 .


#321
Xilizhra

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NugatRevolution wrote...

All you Morinth-lovers are deluded. She's an evil b*tch who kills people for fun. She knows precisely what she is doing. If she were interested in curing her condition, she would have sought out the Salarians or Humans by now.

She enjoys the hunt and subsequent power that comes from each killing. She's a psychopath who deserves/deserved a far worse fate than she got from Samara.

Then I would think Bioware would be ashamed of itself for creating such a simplistic travesty of a story.

#322
NugatRevolution

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Xilizhra wrote...

NugatRevolution wrote...

All you Morinth-lovers are deluded. She's an evil b*tch who kills people for fun. She knows precisely what she is doing. If she were interested in curing her condition, she would have sought out the Salarians or Humans by now.

She enjoys the hunt and subsequent power that comes from each killing. She's a psychopath who deserves/deserved a far worse fate than she got from Samara.

Then I would think Bioware would be ashamed of itself for creating such a simplistic travesty of a story.



Oh yeah.  All stories that don't have the main character being best buddies with a Murdering Psychopath are "Simplitic Travesties" .

Try again.

#323
Xilizhra

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NugatRevolution wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

NugatRevolution wrote...

All you Morinth-lovers are deluded. She's an evil b*tch who kills people for fun. She knows precisely what she is doing. If she were interested in curing her condition, she would have sought out the Salarians or Humans by now.

She enjoys the hunt and subsequent power that comes from each killing. She's a psychopath who deserves/deserved a far worse fate than she got from Samara.

Then I would think Bioware would be ashamed of itself for creating such a simplistic travesty of a story.



Oh yeah.  All stories that don't have the main character being best buddies with a Murdering Psychopath are "Simplitic Travesties" .

Try again.

Well, when the option is to become such, one would hope that the game designers would flesh it out.

#324
NugatRevolution

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Flesh what out? Morinth's Story?

#325
Xilizhra

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NugatRevolution wrote...

Flesh what out? Morinth's Story?

Indeed. I do hope you didn't think I was calling the entirety of ME2 that bad. This is the worst bit.