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[Fiery Phoenix]

I'm actually rather surprised that Xili is into Morinth's character, given the Paragon that she is.

As a primarily Paragon player myself, I prefer Samara but that's not the whole reason. In large part, it has to do with the fact that Morinth's character feels half-finished compared to Samara's, almost like we weren't supposed to be able to recruit her instead. I recruited her on one of my [Renegade] playthrough's but that's about it. Samara just appeals to me more than her daughter.

[PMC65]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I'm actually rather surprised that Xili is into Morinth's character, given the Paragon that she is.

As a primarily Paragon player myself, I prefer Samara but that's not the whole reason. In large part, it has to do with the fact that Morinth's character feels half-finished compared to Samara's, almost like we weren't supposed to be able to recruit her instead. I recruited her on one of my [Renegade] playthrough's but that's about it. Samara just appeals to me more than her daughter.

Maybe that is where the disconnect for me comes in. I only play her first act and she is perfect in it as the deadly seductress. She meets all the key points of darkness and curtain drops. For those that saw her second act have a different take and maybe it wasn't really given much because Bioware thought, who would save the succubus? But now that Morinth was given a shot on the Normandy, hopefully they will write a proper third act for those that kept her over Samara ... after all, we were given a proper first act for those of us who adored the predator.

[Xeranx]

Asenza wrote...

First off, I'm not trying to justify or wave off Samara's actions. I'm succeeding in explaining why the narrative justifies her actions. Samara's actions are not equal to Morinth the murderer's. Samara was in a position of authority, killing people that the Asari believed she had every right to kill.  Everything I stated in my previous post is backed up by evidence in the game. Before she was a Justicar, before her Matron days, she was a mercenary. Just like many other Asari are mercenaries. But I wasn't talking about her pre-Justicar days, I was talking about after.

It matters that the Asari accept The Code because it represents their values and ideals. Their... uhh CODE. Samara carries out their values and ideals. Their CODE. She is an instrument of their beliefs. The Asari think of Justicars as superheroes. Who cares what that random eclipse sister that Samara killed as she was presented, thinks about Justicars and their authority? She was wearing a uniform which means that she committed a murder to earn it. She killed someone so she could wear some ugly armour with a group of other ugly-armour wearing people. Samara gave her two or three chances to give up the name of Morinth's ship. That would spare her life. She refused.

I don't want to derail this topic so I won't say anything more about this. PM me if you have more to say, but please don't unless you can address my post with information backed up by the game.

Night all.

My apologies, but I'm not going to take this to a PM as you introduced the argument here.  It deals with the subject, as you brought it up, to establish how Morinth doesn't have the right to do as she did with the implication that Samara has the authority to do as she does.  

What an Eclipse sister or any other Asari thinks about dying at the hands of a Justicar (or really, dying period) is relevant because Detective Anaya shares a concern that they would all exhibit in the presence of a Justicar.  She expressly states (I think I actually used those words too and looking back you did mention it) that she'd rather not be killed by the Justicar.  In that moment the narrative establishes that those who work on the side of good can fall prey to a Justicar just for doing their job.  And for a much more noble goal than the Justicar might be pursuing at that moment.  

The narrative, however, doesnt justify Samara's actions as Anaya disagrees with the idea of being killed by the Justicar and her superiors disagree with Samara being on Illium as it is.  Samara's presence represents a problem and since that's the case, her actions can't be justified.  As I said before, Samara wasn't held for killing Eclipse sisters, but she was pursued because she represented a potential that existed in propagating a diplomatic incident.  Anaya and her superiors were working towards the greater good.  A greater good that Samara couldn't care less about.  That cannot be dismissed, period.

[Raganheart]

Xeranx wrote...

Asenza wrote...

First off, I'm not trying to justify or wave off Samara's actions. I'm succeeding in explaining why the narrative justifies her actions. Samara's actions are not equal to Morinth the murderer's. Samara was in a position of authority, killing people that the Asari believed she had every right to kill.  Everything I stated in my previous post is backed up by evidence in the game. Before she was a Justicar, before her Matron days, she was a mercenary. Just like many other Asari are mercenaries. But I wasn't talking about her pre-Justicar days, I was talking about after.

It matters that the Asari accept The Code because it represents their values and ideals. Their... uhh CODE. Samara carries out their values and ideals. Their CODE. She is an instrument of their beliefs. The Asari think of Justicars as superheroes. Who cares what that random eclipse sister that Samara killed as she was presented, thinks about Justicars and their authority? She was wearing a uniform which means that she committed a murder to earn it. She killed someone so she could wear some ugly armour with a group of other ugly-armour wearing people. Samara gave her two or three chances to give up the name of Morinth's ship. That would spare her life. She refused.

I don't want to derail this topic so I won't say anything more about this. PM me if you have more to say, but please don't unless you can address my post with information backed up by the game.

Night all.

My apologies, but I'm not going to take this to a PM as you introduced the argument here.  It deals with the subject, as you brought it up, to establish how Morinth doesn't have the right to do as she did with the implication that Samara has the authority to do as she does.  

What an Eclipse sister or any other Asari thinks about dying at the hands of a Justicar (or really, dying period) is relevant because Detective Anaya shares a concern that they would all exhibit in the presence of a Justicar.  She expressly states (I think I actually used those words too and looking back you did mention it) that she'd rather not be killed by the Justicar.  In that moment the narrative establishes that those who work on the side of good can fall prey to a Justicar just for doing their job.  And for a much more noble goal than the Justicar might be pursuing at that moment.  

The narrative, however, doesnt justify Samara's actions as Anaya disagrees with the idea of being killed by the Justicar and her superiors disagree with Samara being on Illium as it is.  Samara's presence represents a problem and since that's the case, her actions can't be justified.  As I said before, Samara wasn't held for killing Eclipse sisters, but she was pursued because she represented a potential that existed in propagating a diplomatic incident.  Anaya and her superiors were working towards the greater good.  A greater good that Samara couldn't care less about.  That cannot be dismissed, period.

Well said, I think that the justicar code has it´s grey areas. People claim Morinth is a monster; a serial killer. If Samara follows her code and kills Anaya because she is interfering with current problem then that is murder of an innocent. Anaya is a police officer and represents good; the law. In this case there is something rather interesting related to real life policies. I see the law and Samara´s code as two different religions. Almost everywhere you go in the united states you are free to practice whatever religion you want. Sometimes these practices from a certain religion conflict with the law in the states. Samara being able to do what she wants also makes me relate her to a Diplomat from another country. When they visit, they are practically untouchable and above the law. I´m not being racist in this example, but just proving a point in why Samara can´t be touched. When I was in Germany, a diplomats from China were driving drunk and parked in a handicap spot, and on top of that rear ended a car. The guy came out of the shop to get the diplomats paperwork for the accident. All he did was flash his Diplomatic ID and the police officer could not do a thing. The guy couldn´t report the accident and was out of luck for his car. The diplomats proceeded into the next bar laughing.

[Asenza]

@ Xeranx,

I didn't bring up Samara's kill-count, that was Xili. I was responding to her assumption that Samara's kill count was higher than Morinth's and the implication a good portion of those kills were innocent people. It doesn't matter how dubious Samara's Code it (we really don't know that much about it) the fact remains that Morinth is a serial killer and Samara's kills as a Justicar are in no way comparable to Morinth's.

@Raganheart,

Like Samara, Detective Anaya has her duty to her superiors. "I'm a good cop. I know my orders. I'll carry them out... unless I can get her to leave my district first." She can disobey, but chose not to. Samara could disobey the command of the Code, but chose not to. The two of them are quits... and if Shepard doesn't step in then Anaya and probably a lot of others are going to die.

But again, back to the topic of Morinth.

Modifié par Asenza, 28 septembre 2011 - 01:29 .

[Xeranx]

Asenza wrote...

@ Xeranx,

I didn't bring up Samara's kill-count, that was Xili. I was responding to her assumption that Samara's kill count was higher than Morinth's and the implication a good portion of those kills were innocent people. It doesn't matter how dubious Samara's Code it (we really don't know that much about it) the fact remains that Morinth is a serial killer and Samara's kills as a Justicar are in no way comparable to Morinth's.

But again, back to the topic of Morinth.

If you want to keep the focus on Morinth that's fine.  I'll do that just as soon as you stop stating that Morinth's and Samara's kills aren't comparable.  And that it's a fact.

Samara felt very comfortable to tell us about what she did to all the adults in an Asari village leaving only the children.  Not some, but all the adults.  Many people, if not everyone who argues against Morinth, state that Morinth had those villagers brainwashed.  I can reasonably suggest that if the people making the arguments can see that then so can Samara.  That means Samara would see that the villagers minds aren't their own.  Therefore coercion is evident.  As such there is a mitigating factor here.  And if there's a cause that can be neutralized thereby preventing the effect, there's sufficient grounds to make the effort to subdue the villagers rather than kill-every-single-one.  Samara doesn't do that.  Instead she kills every Asari adult and leaves an entire village of orphans.  

I'm now starting to wonder if any of the children aided their parents and if so did Samara single them (the children) out as innocents and corral them into some structure so she wouldn't kill them also.  Imagine how much more damning that would be if that's what happened.

Anyway, back to discussing Morinth.

Modifié par Xeranx, 28 septembre 2011 - 04:06 .

[Asenza]

@ Xeranx,

If you played ME1, remember Feros?

Almost same situation. You can gun down all the Thorian-controlled colonists that are trying to kill you, or you can use the nerve gas to avoid killing people that are not in control of themselves.

Samara didn't have nerve gas. If she had, we can assume her code would have compelled her to use it, or an equivalent. We don't know if there were any "spare the people" paths she could take. Maybe she was trying to spare people and the biotic strain was too great. We don't know how many people there were in the village, but odds are she was outnumbered.

On Feros, you can run out of gas grenades if you don't aim properly. Your only recourse at that point is to kill the remaining colonists to advance to the next scene. Perhaps Samara did all she could. But when an unknown number of villagers (who, since they were Asari, were also biotics) are trying to kill her due to Morinth's mind control, there is only so much Samara, alone, by herself, could do. Should she have let the villagers kill her, because it wasn't really them but Morinth's mind control? Then Morinth would have been free to do the same thing to others, and to continue her killing spree.

For the most part we don't have specific information about the event. But from what information we have, you cannot say that Samara didn't try to explore other avenues. Given what we know of her character, and what little we know of the Code, it is not farfetched to assume that if there was any other option available to her with the villagers that did not involve killing them, then she would have taken it.

But back to Morinth. Again.

Morinth is a cold-blooded killer with no conscience and or sympathy for any other living being. She likes to live life dangerously. She makes no excuses for it (except when she's caught and about to die, did I mention she's manipulative?) so when people start trying to make excuses for her actions, romanticizing her... well. If you make excuses for her, if you say its not her fault that she is the way she is, then you're taking away the dark, seductive huntress aspect of her character. And that basically all there is to her character.

There's nothing wrong with liking dark and twisted characters for the sake of their twistedness and their dark way of life. Hannibal Lector and Jigaw and Dexter and all others of that ilk are so popular because they offer us a view into an alien character

. But when you start making excuses for Morinth, or defending her by going, "Oh it's cause she's an Ardat-Yakshi, it's not her fault, its Samara's, or its Asari society not Morinth" then you're further reducing her character to nothing more than a genetic defect. Good job, you've made her character even more simple than she already is.

You guys are the Morinth fan thread. I can't believe I've spent so much time defending Morinth's character against people who purport to like her character.

Modifié par Asenza, 28 septembre 2011 - 05:07 .

[Xilizhra]

On Feros, you can run out of gas grenades if you don't aim properly. Your only recourse at that point is to kill the remaining colonists to advance to the next scene.

No it isn't. If it was, I'd have been screwed, because my aim with grenades is terrible. Just punch them.

You guys are the Morinth fan thread. I can't believe I've spent so much time defending Morinth's character against people who purport to like her character.

Because in general, we like Morinth's potential more than Morinth's character as presented because Morinth's character as generally presented totally sucks and isn't worth defending. Because this...

If you make excuses for her, if you say its not her fault that she is the way she is, then you're taking away the dark, seductive huntress aspect of her character. And that basically all there is to her character.

IS NOT A GOOD THING.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 28 septembre 2011 - 05:14 .

[Asenza]

Xilizhra wrote...

You guys are the Morinth fan thread. I can't believe I've spent so much time defending Morinth's character against people who purport to like her character.

Because in general, we like Morinth's potential more than Morinth's character as presented because Morinth's character as generally presented totally sucks and isn't worth defending.

So you don't like Morinth as a serial killer. You like the fact that somehow, someday she could not be a serial killer. But you don't like her. Just her potential. Potential that isn't shown in the game. That has no evidence of ever coming to pass. You want to change a character that does not want to change herself!

EDIT: Back after class.

Modifié par Asenza, 28 septembre 2011 - 05:18 .

[Xilizhra]

Asenza wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You guys are the Morinth fan thread. I can't believe I've spent so much time defending Morinth's character against people who purport to like her character.

Because in general, we like Morinth's potential more than Morinth's character as presented because Morinth's character as generally presented totally sucks and isn't worth defending.

So you don't like Morinth as a serial killer. You like the fact that somehow, someday she could not be a serial killer. But you don't like her. Just her potential. Potential that isn't shown in the game. That has no evidence of ever coming to pass. You want to change a character that does not want to change herself!

EDIT: Back after class.

Variable. I like a few aspects of her, but her oversimplicity is irritating.

[Xeranx]

Asenza wrote...

@ Xeranx,

If you played ME1, remember Feros?

Almost same situation. You can gun down all the Thorian-controlled colonists that are trying to kill you, or you can use the nerve gas to avoid killing people that are not in control of themselves.

Samara didn't have nerve gas. If she had, we can assume her code would have compelled her to use it, or an equivalent. We don't know if there were any "spare the people" paths she could take. Maybe she was trying to spare people and the biotic strain was too great. We don't know how many people there were in the village, but odds are she was outnumbered.

On Feros, you can run out of gas grenades if you don't aim properly. Your only recourse at that point is to kill the remaining colonists to advance to the next scene. Perhaps Samara did all she could. But when an unknown number of villagers (who, since they were Asari, were also biotics) are trying to kill her due to Morinth's mind control, there is only so much Samara, alone, by herself, could do. Should she have let the villagers kill her, because it wasn't really them but Morinth's mind control? Then Morinth would have been free to do the same thing to others, and to continue her killing spree.

For the most part we don't have specific information about the event. But from what information we have, you cannot say that Samara didn't try to explore other avenues. Given what we know of her character, and what little we know of the Code, it is not farfetched to assume that if there was any other option available to her with the villagers that did not involve killing them, then she would have taken it.

Your statement on Feros is incorrect.  You don't need the gas grenades to knock them out.  You can apply a melee tactic to do that.  The game actually registers what method of pacification you use.  Shoot them and they die.  Use the gas grenades or pistol whip them and they all live.

We can't assume that Samara's code would compell her to use gas grenades because she doesn't exercise good sense in going about her business.  In her talk about the village she doesn't even say she knocked out anyone.  She says she kills all the adults.  So she didn't do 'all she could'.  She went with quick and dirty.  Well, quick and untidy messy.  And it's ironic that you made mention of the gas grenades on Feros since the gas grenades undermined the source of control that the Thorian was able to exert: the Thorian spores.  The source was targeted and the people were rendered unconcious.

Something I didn't remember before, but Samara registers herself with Dara on Illium before going about her business to locate Morinth.  She does that and upon finding out that Morinth was smuggled off-world she goes on a rampage.  Considering how many she took care of (three from what I can remember in the scene we first meet her) and Wasea attacking Shepard with her group as well, I can reasonably surmise that Samara would have had to kill the entire group to get the same info we did.  Everything was done for expediency, but Samara wouldn't have gotten the information in a day if we were to look at that event logically.  Again, she killed every adult villager to get to Morinth.  Her combating an entire well-trained group against her would have set her back considerably.  Probably enough that trying to use a possible CI to get the information she needed would have been to her benefit.

Knowing that she registered herself with local law enforcement (or just in general) and knowing that Asari are expected to respect the judgments of a Justicar, Samara had an entire law enforcement crew on her side which she refused to utilize.  That shows her lacking any sense that could or should have been applied to her situation.

But back to Morinth. Again.

Morinth is a cold-blooded killer with no conscience and or sympathy for any other living being. She likes to live life dangerously. She makes no excuses for it (except when she's caught and about to die, did I mention she's manipulative?) so when people start trying to make excuses for her actions, romanticizing her... well. If you make excuses for her, if you say its not her fault that she is the way she is, then you're taking away the dark, seductive huntress aspect of her character. And that basically all there is to her character.

And isn't that the problem?  That the only thing that makes her this dark, seductive huntress is a genetic defect?  That without that she's another Asari?  Aria presents a dark and seductive visage, but we know there's more to her.  We don't know of anything else about Morinth save that she, like her mother, revels in combat.  She's manipulative, tell me how that's necessarily a bad thing.  Shepard can be manipulative.  TIM is definitely so.  Others include: Udina, Fist, Saren, Nihlus, Chorban, and the Asari Consort.  And every person can do it.  Being manipulative isn't a bad thing by itself so it's not a sure foundation to make a statement for something or someone being evil.

Is Morinth responsible for any she killed yes, but we don't know how many are innocent and/or how many are criminal.  We can only guess, but the majority of people like to place their bets on innocents bearing the brunt of her actions.  As far as they're concerned there's no way that Morinth could spend most of her time focused on just criminals.  That sounds like zealotry to me.

There's nothing wrong with liking dark and twisted characters for the sake of their twistedness and their dark way of life. Hannibal Lector and Jigaw and Dexter and all others of that ilk are so popular because they offer us a view into an alien character

. But when you start making excuses for Morinth, or defending her by going, "Oh it's cause she's an Ardat-Yakshi, it's not her fault, its Samara's, or its Asari society not Morinth" then you're further reducing her character to nothing more than a genetic defect. Good job, you've made her character even more simple than she already is.

You guys are the Morinth fan thread. I can't believe I've spent so much time defending Morinth's character against people who purport to like her character.

There should be nothing wrong with liking dark and/or twisted characters, but as soon as a Morinth thread comes up people are ready to bash her and anyone who says that she's underwritten into next Tuesday.  For whatever reason.  Some of those same people say they want to understand how or why people like Morinth, but those questions are minefields because those people already have their lists made to make comparisons.  And unfortunately that's all there exists to do for Morinth because there's nothing else to talk about in regards to her character.  

Morinth's incredibly hampered by not being fleshed out.  We don't even get her real name from her own mother.  'She's going by the name Morinth', but no mention of "I remember when she used to answer to Mirala" and this is the very person she claims she's proud of.  Not even during the confrontation does Samara slip up and call her daughter by her real name.  Shame.

I didn't make the vampire connection so I don't have anything else forcing me to make any other conclusions than what I have.  And I find it incredibly ironic that there are people making statements of fact about Morinth while they also state that if she wasn't an Ardat Yakshi then there'd be nothing to her.  After everyone talked about a vampire connetion I made a my own to the most recent example I could think of in Spike from BTVS.  Loved that character and he went from villain to champion.  He actually grew.  Developed whether he was a villain or a hero.  He was fleshed out.  Morinth was designated the villain and was never allowed to show what her true colors were.  Nef was killed behind the scenes.  An investigation was to be done that never happened.  We went from accused to guilty in five minutes.  Of course I'm going to ask for more and I'm going to be second guessing Samara in every subsequent playthrough because I can't be sure that she's not manipulating me.

[Iredeemable_Ant-Man]

A very much agree with the fact that she's under written and morally scrutinized too much in this thread. I've read 95% of it and its been derailed into an ethics debate. its an incredibly well written debate but I thnk at this point its overly focused. You don't have to be lovable to be a great character in a story. Its the characters that leave you curious, and aren't stereotypically motivated, that pull at us. Frankly the depth of this debate proves that shes a great character concept because shes written in a way leave some wantimg her crucified, some want her redeemed, some hate her, some love her, and some are facinated with her as she is without hopes for further development. That being said, I think a problem we're having is that we're viewing her through a distinctly human lense.

For example, the assumption that she's delusional about Ardat Yakshi being the genetic destiny of the Asari.. I personally don't think she means all Asari will lose their telepathy and become infertile life sucking succubi. I think of it the same way I think of gender roles with ants (go figure). They have gender based castes unlike humans. Fertile females are Queens. Their job is to collect genetic material from the males and reproduce. Thats it. Males are smaller and only live long enough to find a Queen, mate, and die shortly after. Infertile females are the the primary workers, scavengers, scouts, and expecially soliders. In fact, as they can't reproduce, they evolved poisonous stingers in place of reproductive organs. They also don't produce pheremones to signal mating, only ones for standard colony communication. Their also programed to be predatory, hostile and have a heightened threat response. Same with bees, wasps, etc.

Asari also don't follow human gender rules. Hell, there are no male Asari. Fertile Asari use genetic material to randomize DNA. They also outlive most (all?) Male partners from other species. Perhaps Morinth believes Ardat Yakshi are a specific and natural caste division in the Asari's evolution. A solider class who have had reproductive functions and telepathic communitcation replaced by weaponized mind control and heightened predatory instincts. Maybe she is saying her kind are meant to exist as part of the Asari species. Further more, many insect species have females who mate with males and, if they aren't impressive enough while mating, don't perform the necessary mating rituals to show they aren't a threat, or if the female is too 'worked up', they end up being KILLED by the female and sometimes EATEN. Infact, some male spiders and genetically programed to impale themselve on their mate's fang to prompt her to eat them!

What makes Morinth interesting to me is that she very well may be genetically programed to in a similar fashion however, she also has intelligence / self awareness. She can reason, imagine, and be taught to empathize (if she isn't capable already and simply chooses too shut that ability out). Instincts tell her to kill or mate and then kill. Her culture tells her to use empathy / morality and since she isn't 'normal' she's deficient or a mistake. They teach her to be ashamed of what she is while her instinct tells her to embrace her power.

As they are a minority among Asari and their condition is predatory, they're naturally 'otherized' by the majority and shunned. THAT is a very human response provided the majority of the culture has a code of values which is incongruent with aspects of the smaller 'other group'. For example: A Krogan will preferably find an opponent strong enough to be worthy of combat HOWEVER they hate weakness and think little of killing. The first thing Grunt does is tell Shepard he's going to kill him/her as he precieves Shep as weak. He doesn't feel bad about it and only changes his mind when Shepard proves to be respectably strong. infact, he then notes that he would be honored to go to war with Shepard in the future and (obviously) violently battle to the death. Krogan all share smilar values. They hold those killer instincts in high regard. Ergo: no otherizing. They are a very 'male' oriented species. The Asari are a very feminized species.

If all Asari were Ardat Yakshi that could reproduce I imagine cultural conditioning would be bread into them much like how Krogan are taught to be warriors not random murderers. Instead Ardat Yakshi are isolated and viewed negatively so their pulled in opposite directions in terms of nature vs nurture.

Morinth may very well have the same instinctive regard for Nef as a spider does to a fly or a female spider does to a male spider. Your either prey or, if you your a potential mate, she'll likely mate with you and feed on you because she's driven to do so. We grade her morally but her society hasn't really given her the conditioning to be overly moral.I fully agree that she made the choice to live as a predator instead of to be locked up and shunned for existing. I fully agree that murdering innocent people is immoral. I just think precieving her condition as a voluntary addiction may be simplifying things.

Further more what makes her intriguing is to see how she processes Shepard. It's very likely she hasn't encountered (or atleast not for a long time) a potential mate that she couldn't dominate, that she had owes a debt to, and who maintains their strength while being able to use a moral compass. Shepard has the ability to process morality but also the ability to justify immoral actions for a precieved greater benefit. That must be fascinating for Morinth and stir up a mixed response between her instinct to prey on Shepard BECAUSE of his / her strength or to study / learn from that strength. Also, as she is lonely (as I imagine a solitary predator cut off from her species would be) some part of her must welcome Shepard's 'friendship' as filling that void in social interaction she endures or at least find him / her entertaining as an anomoly.

This leaves some big questions:

Will Morinth's predatory nature and lust for dominance drive her to try to prey on Shep for the thrill / due to undeniable genetic dirves? Or will the higher thinking socially shunned aspect of her learn to value Shepard as perhaps her only 'friend' and lead her to developing an emotional investment there (not necessarily 'romantic love)? Has she convinced herself to hope Shep could surivive mating with her and be a long term mate or is that a ploy? Or is she convincing herself because she can't resist trying? Also has / will Morinth as an influence change Shep? Has / will Shep as an influence change Mornith?

Very interesting in my opinion. Apologies for the length.Please don't rip me apart, these are just ideas and I won't be participating in a point for point dissection. I just like to contribute ideas to good conversation.

[Iredeemable_Ant-Man]

...Oh, and props for the Spike reference above ....

[Raganheart]

Ant-man well said! I enjoyed looking at this in a different perspective. I think many people who are not giving Morinth a chance will read this and maybe change their mind about her.

[D.Kain]

Iredeemable_Ant-man - this is very well said. Kudos! =)

[Xeranx]

NIce one Ant-man. I especially like the bit about the possibility of Morinth thinking Shepard could survive because she can't resist trying. That would spark a beautiful (at least I think so) "what if" scenario.

Spike, as far as I'm concerned, is Joss' best character. When he started going through the change I pretty much was thinking he should be the Champion instead. There's a lot to talk about concerning him as I think he's had the most growth out of everyone.  So thanks for the props. I'll take them where I can.

Modifié par Xeranx, 29 septembre 2011 - 12:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...


Maybe, maybe... people love to hate Morinth? Like with Udina. I'll admit sometimes I hate what Morinth does. I feel bad for Nef, at least until I remind myself she was probably a liberal!

Good thing you put in the italics, Saphra: someone less experienced with you might have been insulted.

[PauseforEffect]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

Given the lengths of the debates surrounding Morinth and Samara, I am reaaallly expecting Bioware will give more depth to this.

I think the lengths of these debates is mainly due to how badly (or, to be more accurate, how *insufficiently*) Morinth is written.

Long serious debates while neither side can convince the other is usually due to an insufficient amount of facts and data. Morinth has less dialogue in total than Kasumi or Zaeed, and yet her plot is arguably more complex than any other ME2 squadmate's (one major factor is she and her mother's long lifespans).

It's as if Morinth's writer quit when she/he was just beginning to flesh out the character, and BioWare didn't bother to find a replacement.

True enough.

[PauseforEffect]

@ Antman
Though the Asari are a race with different cultural values in game, they are still creations of human developers and are thus given human perspectives whether intended or not. We cannot truly give an alien perspective without some reflection on our own culture.
It is also unfair to say that Morinth is being morally scrutinized too much while people still want Samara called for her actions. Both are controversial; My complaints about Morinth are the reasons to trust her. If she is by nature as incapable of mercy as she is aware of her actions being disapproved of by asari, then can we blame the asari for following their nature for self-preservation and protecting others by isolating them from society?
Also, while Justicars are feared, it is one born of ignorance by the residents who know only the reputation. It is not too different from the attitude others have about Spectres. While there are issues to be addressed about the license to kill without being held accountable if justified enough, they are around because their effectiveness outweighs the liability of either the Justicar or Spectre wrecking havoc.
If we are being overly harsh in our criticism of Morinth, it is in response to the justification to giving her a second chance when events in the game show it to be hazardous otherwise. Favoring her due to personal preference alone is one thing. Justifying her actions is another. If there were events in the game sufficient enough to defend her, I would. There are none, and too much to prosecute her. If we have to keep her alive for the sake of character depth, it's a leap of faith that's leading on the player too much.

[PauseforEffect]

Xilizhra wrote...

Do we mourn the death of an armed merc who knew what she was up against or for the girl who fell in love with someone she did not know would murder her?

I don't know about you, but I mourn both. Just like I mourn both Samara and Morinth.

If it's of any consolation, Samara mourns for her daughter. She likely will mourn to the end of her days. A mother's love can be hard to understand. They would love their child no matter what their child did, as you most likely know from personal experience. Samara could not allow Morinth to continue to kill, but she still loved her.

[PauseforEffect]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...


Maybe, maybe... people love to hate Morinth? Like with Udina. I'll admit sometimes I hate what Morinth does. I feel bad for Nef, at least until I remind myself she was probably a liberal!

Good thing you put in the italics, Saphra: someone less experienced with you might have been insulted.

Good point, at least Saphra's being honest about it. How many times have you been misunderstood, Dean?

[Iredeemable_Ant-Man]

I appreciate the kudos. Just doing what I can to add to the analysis. Something else to consider: Asari mate with other species to randomize their DNA right? Well before they were a space faring people there were no other species to mate with. They also frown upon pure blood lineage. Why?
(I don't really know but I'm sure someone can help us out. I'm going to give you my train of logic..)

Most cultures are opposite. Look at humans: the more racially and ethnically diverse our areas become the more we are forced to get over our 'otherizing' HOWEVER, this process is one of conflict. When a Group A is forced to interact with Group B, Group A views any differences in Group B as weaknesses or flaws. They start to worry about the effect of Group B on their cultural and biological purity. Its a threat response. The Asari from ME1&2 are use to other species but they hardly seem above species stereotyping. So if they aren't really 'over' species differences you would think that they would naturally place a higher value on Asari mating with other Asari. Even if mating with another species can't alter the Asari biologically due to exposure, it does drastically increase the likelihood of altering their culture do to exposure. That would mean that something about mating with foreign species has a benefit that FAR out weighs the natural tendency of sociological group dynamics.

My guess is that when Asari mate with other Asari the DNA of the offspring is very close to the mother. In some cases almost identical. If that's the case then MAYBE having Pureblood offspring increases the likelihood of having Ardat Yakshi children (I THINK Samara theorizes this too?). Perhaps the closer a child is to being a clone of her mother, the higher the risk? IF that's the case then perhaps the DNA randomization from mating with other species is like a side effect to a built-in immune response to 'clean / screen' the DNA of foreign influences in the birthing process. That would make encouraging mating with off-world species a loop hole to control the Ardat Yakshi population. Especially if there has been a history of considering the minority Ardat Yakshi inferior.

It would explain why off world mating is REALLY widely excepted and even promoted. I don't buy the whole 'it helps us understand other species better' thing. In a controlled frame work I could see it being a bonus but potentially millions of children being exposed to different cultures and perspectives would seem to accelerate the diluting of Asari culture as the Asari live so long. Plenty of time to get different cultures jumbled up. If, say, an Asari mates with a Krogan and their daughter is raised to be a Asari/Krogan diplomat then maybe but if the whole thing is unchecked there has to be a benefit in the mating process itself.

Also the Ardat Yakshi are said to be incredibly powerful biotics right? I'd imagine Pureblood Asari have a higher likelihood of biotic prowess. It would explain the view that Pureblood's think they're 'better' than other Asari and why the term is offensive. Sort of like saying 'Ya your a powerful biotic but at least I'm not one step away from a space vampire!'. It would explain why Liara, a Pureblood, is a powerful biotic much like her mother Benezia was. They still had obvious genetic differences even appearance wise (not to mention one has fake eyebrows.... lol). Samara and Morinth however looked almost identical. That might be the key right there.

So, to summarize: Asari mating other Asari may produce two outcomes. If DNA is sufficiently randomized you get a fertile Asari female. If that DNA is virtually a clone of the mother theres a high probability of producing an Ardat Yakshi. The closer the DNA is to the mother, perhaps the higher the odds of biotic potential. By mating with off-world species a more drastic DNA randomization is guaranteed and therefore the chances of having an Ardat Yakshi are negated. It may also 'water down' genetic potential as a side effect.

If that's true then, IF LEFT TO THEIR NATURE ENVIRONMENT WITHOUT ACCESS TO FOREIGN SPECIES, Ardat Yakshi are more likely a naturally occuring genetic caste than a sickness. Remember Asari use mind melding to communicate but also as a significant part of their mating process. Ardat Yakshi don't mate. If they're naturally predatory there's no reason why a lack of telepathy, killer instincts and lethal mind melding are necessarily any more unnatural than infertile solider ants having their reproduce organs replaced with stingers and losing the ability to communicate with mating pheromones. Ardat Yakshi aren't born sickly, disfigured, cognitively under developed, etc. like a person with a disease or a medical complication. There's nothing saying they aren't just naturally different.

This meshes with both Morinth saying Ardat Yakshi are the genetic destiny of the Asari AND Samara being culturally conditioned to view her daughter the way she does. Samara is culturally conditioned. It doesn't make Morinth morally correct in her conduct but I think these explanations have more weight than labeling her a sociopath with a mental illness. I've never of a mental illness causing guaranteed infertility. Mind you I don't know any blue tentacle haired alien women but I think its more a biological issue.

Regular Asari seem to have their biotics tied to their mind melding and melding tied to mating and mating tied to reproduction. Ardat Yakshi have their biotics tied to their melding and melding to their mating but, as their infertile, it isn't tied to reproduction. Their melding is weaponized. So what you have is someone who has biotic power and the drives for sex and predatory violence overlapping. I can see how that could lead to habit forming behaviour.

Again, morality is separate from this as is the 'monster' debate. Night all! Again, sorry for the length. I got on a ramble again..... lol

[PauseforEffect]

I think you answered your own question about why pureblood lineage is frowned upon. It has been proven amongst humans that interracial couples occur partly out of instinct to increase genetic variety. Pureblood asari are likely viewed as cultural inbreds, as one asari mentions in Illium, they are a waste of genetic potential. Because Ardat-Yakshi seem to occur only in purebloods, it's natural then that asari would disapprove of their own species exclusive pairings. Had it happened the other way around with Ardat-Yakshi manifesting only in interspecies pairings, a xenophobic attitude could have taken hold.
If not for moral reasons to isolate Ardat-Yakshi, then for survival purposes it is that Asari seek out the extreme cases like Morinth to be executed to prevent long-term deaths. In a way, morality is frequently tied up into pragmatism.
Nothing wrong with a long post; people here are grateful for your logic.
Must go as well.

[D.Kain]

PrimalEden wrote...

...can we blame the asari for following their nature for self-preservation and protecting others by isolating them from society?

Most definately! THAT is why I am on Morinth's side. 

But let me elaborate: people should be more carring toward one another in general. Asari should be carring towards Morinth and let her live amongs them as a normal person and trust her to be a good girl, and Morinth should think about others, that are carring for her, and actually be that good girl, sacrificing that one bit of her life - melding.
 

Modifié par D.Kain, 29 septembre 2011 - 08:42 .