878 replies to this topic

[ladyvader]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

@ ladyvader. I think Morinth deluded herself into thinking Shepard could survive, that's all.

@HH 3. I'm not convinced it's completely a pleasure thing, I think maybe she really had feelings for the ones she kills, and that it's become her perverted idea of love. Like I said, I think Morinth also deludes herself into thinking Shepard would survive. Maybe she doesn't and shes really evil, but I'd like to think Morinth is a more complex character than that (but who am I kidding, she was basically pointless to recruit)

I don't even think she was deluding herself.  I think says it to get Shepard to meld with her.  She a predador and loves the hunt.  Shepard is nothing more than prey.

I kept her once.  And that Shepard ended up KIA during the SM.  No games in ME3 with that crazy asari.  Jack is enough.

[Seboist]

Morinth had the potential to be one of the greatest characters in ME2 but unfortunately she ended up becoming a semi-joke secret character thrown in at the last moment(or so it seems). The concept was brilliant, a sociopathic hedonist sex murderer learning how to look out for others and becoming an unlikely savior of the galaxy? That would have been awesome. They could have also made her the most pro-Cerberus alien squadmate and had her join their ranks due to them supporting her lifestyle and giving her the thrills she craves with whatever missions they'd give her.

She would have been far better than her mother who's a dead end as far as character development goes that's for sure.

[clennon8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, yeah, she ran away because she didn't want to live in a monastery. That would be boring.
As for love... I don't think she's capable of loving another. She's a sociopath.

If she displays those behavioral traits, I suspect it's largely learned. I think it's too much to say out of hand that she's incapable of love.

If?  There's no "if" about it.  She's a sociopath.  She does not feel empathy for others.  People without empathy are not capable of love.

[Xeranx]

clennon8 wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Morinth is unfortunately not fleshed out and there are a few inconsistencies with how she's presented.  There are too many avenues you can pitch her.  She could be a "Dexter"-type character.  She could even be looking for a way to cure her ardat-yakshi situation.  She could love the thrill of the hunt.  She could hate it, but think that it's inevitable.  Look at "Lost Girl".

It seems quite clear to me that Morinth is a "thrill of the hunt" kind of gal.

I don't know if I can necessarily agree with that.  One would think - or at least I would - that after 400 years of the same pursuit falling to the same result things would get incredibly mundane.  How do you continue to harbor having the thrill of the hunt if the payoff is so expected? It seems benefits for Morinth can be gained rather easily considering all that's involved.  It would be one thing if the victim had to be into it for it to work.

[Xilizhra]

Morinth had the potential to be one of the greatest characters in ME2 but unfortunately she ended up becoming a semi-joke secret character thrown in at the last moment(or so it seems). The concept was brilliant, a sociopathic hedonist sex murderer learning how to look out for others and becoming an unlikely savior of the galaxy? That would have been awesome. They could have also made her the most pro-Cerberus alien squadmate and had her join their ranks due to them supporting her lifestyle and giving her the thrills she craves with whatever missions they'd give her.

I agree with this except I don't think it's a guarantee that she'd be pro-Cerberus. She is consistent about destroying the Collector base.

She would have been far better than her mother who's a dead end as far as character development goes that's for sure.

This, though, isn't a guarantee.

If? There's no "if" about it. She's a sociopath. She does not feel empathy for others. People without empathy are not capable of love.

I'm not sure about that. She does talk about enjoying kills, but she also says that her victims died in exquisite pleasure; it seems to be some means that she uses to justify this to herself.

[HogarthHughes 3]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

@ ladyvader. I think Morinth deluded herself into thinking Shepard could survive, that's all.

@HH 3. I'm not convinced it's completely a pleasure thing, I think maybe she really had feelings for the ones she kills, and that it's become her perverted idea of love. Like I said, I think Morinth also deludes herself into thinking Shepard would survive. Maybe she doesn't and shes really evil, but I'd like to think Morinth is a more complex character than that (but who am I kidding, she was basically pointless to recruit)

That's an interesting idea, not sure I can believe it though.  When speaking about Nef, Morinth acts as though she was doing her a favor.  Perhaps she is simply that twisted, but isn't that what evil people are anyways?  Believing you are in the right does not make it so, or absolve you of responsibility for your actions.

A "redemption" story of sorts with Morinth would have been cool, but Bioware didn't bother to do that.  She is the evil space succubus who enjoys killing people with her (stealing this from someone else) "braingina."  Don't get me wrong evil characters in fiction can be great fun, not everyone needs to be an anti-hero or hero.  However she really isn't a "Dexter" type of character at all.  If we're going to use that show for analogies, Brian Moser would be a much better fit.

Edited by HogarthHughes 3, 22 September 2011 - 07:03 PM.

[PMC65]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

@ ladyvader. I think Morinth deluded herself into thinking Shepard could survive, that's all.

@HH 3. I'm not convinced it's completely a pleasure thing, I think maybe she really had feelings for the ones she kills, and that it's become her perverted idea of love. Like I said, I think Morinth also deludes herself into thinking Shepard would survive. Maybe she doesn't and shes really evil, but I'd like to think Morinth is a more complex character than that (but who am I kidding, she was basically pointless to recruit)

Until Bioware adds more to the character it is all up to the player on how they want to see Morinth.

For once it was great to see an actual evil creature with no apologies, no regrets and no desire for redemption. That was why she drew me in ... add a nice little "please help me find a cure Shepard" would just make her another boring misunderstood character. 

Hannibal Lecter in Silence Of The Lambs was absolutely delicious in his coldness and he was by no means boring and her character in that short time reminded me of him ... I like that in my Mass Effect world there is this type of creature that is hedonistic, calculating, ruthless, disconnected and seductive. There is no "woe is me" about her, she loves what she is ... to add a lost little girl background would destroy why I like and fear this character. 

But we all like different types of stories so if people want her to be redeemed in ME3 then good on you. They could add that layer if they choose and while I wouldn't use it because it would not fit the Morinth I feared on Omega ... it wouldn't make me cry foul either. 

[Raganheart]

Morinth loves Shepard! It´s like a sex thief. If you ever heard John Mayer´s song Assassin, he talks about how he sleeps with women and feels nothing for them. He says he is never capable to love and he leaves the women while they are sleeping in bed. That´s an assassin! He does this for awhile until someone comes along and he feels love for her. He was so cold for his many encounters, but this girl changed him. He goes on to say in the end he fell in love with an assassin, which the girl had left him. It´s the same concept here with Morinth. She might have been cold and not able to love with her disease for previous so called lovers( which I think is genetic destiny lol) but when she met shepard I think she changed or wants to change.

[KingNothing125]

Lol. Where do you people come up with this stuff? Morinth is a space succubus, a space vampire. She is Hannibal Lecter, she is Jet Li in "The One". She is not interested in change, redemption, or a cure for her disease. She didn't suddenly have a change of heart when Shepard walked into her life. She joined Shepard because (a) otherwise she would have been killed by Samara, ( Shepard is her target, and probably the most "attractive" target she's ever pursued. The "you might survive" isn't her honestly thinking Shepard would survive, it's more seduction. Seduction is her hobby, and she's good at it.

She's the ultimate bad girl, not a misunderstood victim with a heart of gold. Get over it. An evil character doesn't necessarily need some kind of redemption hook to be interesting, complex or likeable.

[Asenza]

Seboist wrote...

Morinth had the potential to be one of the greatest characters in ME2 but unfortunately she ended up becoming a semi-joke secret character thrown in at the last moment(or so it seems). The concept was brilliant, a sociopathic hedonist sex murderer learning how to look out for others and becoming an unlikely savior of the galaxy? That would have been awesome. They could have also made her the most pro-Cerberus alien squadmate and had her join their ranks due to them supporting her lifestyle and giving her the thrills she craves with whatever missions they'd give her.

She would have been far better than her mother who's a dead end as far as character development goes that's for sure.

I dissagree that Samara is a dead end.  There is a lot more to be explored about her, and I feel as though her story is far from finished. Like Thane, Samara has begun a  new chapter in her life. She mentions that there will always be
injustice out there, and perhaps more Ardat-Yakshi. But certainly having finished with Morinth, the one who she became a Justicar to pursue, that has to have an effect on her. Will she talk to her other daughters
now, let them know that their mother accomplished what she set out to  do, though it hurt her and them in the process, that it was worth it in the end? Will she contact her bondmate? Does she still feel the call of the code as strongly as before? Will she try to love again, this time, with Shepard?

Morinth on the other hand.... she's a killer, cold and simple. I wish she wasn't that simple, but there isn't much more to her character than 'she likes to kill all teh peoples cuz it makes her feel good'. I can't even think of a reason for her to hang around in Mass Effect 3. She would be the first person off the ship at the end of the SM, before all the others who aren't in it for duty or honor or the preservation of all life in the galaxy. Redemption's not for her- she's been killing for four hundred years, long before Shepard's parent's parent's grandparents were walking around. If they had hinted at some sorrow or regret, or I don't know, maybe hinted that Morinth is desperate to find someone who won't die when they mate with her, if she had some reason to believe there was someone out there who could handle her condition (and we know that person isn't Shepard) well then that's different.  

But unless they retcon characterization into Morinth I have absolutely no clue what can be done with her, and even having her around during the events of the ME3 feels... wrong. She's out to save herself and for some reason I can't figure out, went on and possibly survived the SM... having escaped death at her mother's hands and death during the SM, why would she tempt fate and do it again?

Edited by Asenza, 22 September 2011 - 09:48 PM.

[Xilizhra]

But unless they retcon characterization into Morinth

Given how unforgivably botched her execution was in ME2, this is the best thing they could possibly do.

She's the ultimate bad girl, not a misunderstood victim with a heart of gold. Get over it. An evil character doesn't necessarily need some kind of redemption hook to be interesting, complex or likeable.

Actually, I believe they do. Someone evil with no chance of redemption is someone who no longer possesses free will, which can admittedly happen with some mental illnesses, but then it's no longer evil so much as sickness and it's no longer interesting as a motivator.

Edited by Xilizhra, 22 September 2011 - 09:56 PM.

[Asenza]

Xilizhra wrote...

But unless they retcon characterization into Morinth

Given how unforgivably botched her execution was in ME2, this is the best thing they could possibly do.

I'm on the fence about it.

If they had portrayed her as having hidden depths, then I would be all for adding to her character.

But from ME2 we could only decide whether to side with Morinth or Samara based on what we saw of them up until that point and given all we've seen about Morinth (seduction,murder,yay)  if she were to get some serious character arc or change in ME3 then that's not exactly fair. People who saw Morinth exactly as she was illustrated (remorseless killer that uses the pleasure her victims have before they die as justification) and chose Samara in ME2 , had no reason to think Moring could change in any way or become different than she currently is.

We weren't shown that she had potential to change in any direction.

Edited by Asenza, 22 September 2011 - 10:06 PM.

[Xilizhra]

The way I see it, character integrity is for actual characters. If you want to change a poorly implemented hollow shell of a character with reams of unexplored potential, I can see no problems.

Given that people can see potential where none was explored, I think it's fair to say that sometimes the fans are brighter about certain things than the game designers.

Edited by Xilizhra, 22 September 2011 - 10:14 PM.

[Asenza]

Xilizhra wrote...

The way I see it, character integrity is for actual characters. If you want to change a poorly implemented hollow shell of a character with reams of unexplored potential, I can see no problems.

Given that people can see potential where none was explored, I think it's fair to say that sometimes the fans are brighter about certain things than the game designers.

Ok, I know we did this before on the Samara thread but... I'll just..... we'll see what they do with Morinth in ME3...

Edited by Asenza, 22 September 2011 - 10:25 PM.

[PMC65]

Xilizhra wrote...

But unless they retcon characterization into Morinth

Given how unforgivably botched her execution was in ME2, this is the best thing they could possibly do.

She's the ultimate bad girl, not a misunderstood victim with a heart of gold. Get over it. An evil character doesn't necessarily need some kind of redemption hook to be interesting, complex or likeable.

Actually, I believe they do. Someone evil with no chance of redemption is someone who no longer possesses free will, which can admittedly happen with some mental illnesses, but then it's no longer evil so much as sickness and it's no longer interesting as a motivator.

Sorry but I always felt that Hannibal Lecter had free will and absolute understanding of what he was doing at all times. Just because an individual is not looking to the light or to somehow fit in with the common folk does not mean that they do not have free will. Hell, you could even argue about their sanity.

I like that she is dark without some 'help me' luggage. But I'll stay out of the what Bioware should do with her in ME3 because that isn't my storyline, so I don't have any investment there. 

[Xilizhra]

Sorry but I always felt that Hannibal Lecter had free will and absolute understanding of what he was doing at all times. Just because an individual is not looking to the light or to somehow fit in with the common folk does not mean that they do not have free will. Hell, you could even argue about their sanity.

They might not have to be right then, but there's always something that could be better.

[thatguy212]

Morinth is probably the only character I genuinely want to return as a squadmember, if that one conversation between her and grunt is any indication on how she would be as herself then she would probably end up being another loved evil bioware character like HK-47 or Edwin, evil but comedic enough for people to ignore the evil

Also, is there a plot hole when it comes to morinth joining your team? she doesn't seem to know who shepard is but as soon as samara and her start fighting she seems to know that shepard is putting together a team

Edited by thatguy212, 23 September 2011 - 03:55 AM.

[Asenza]

thatguy212 wrote...

Morinth is probably the only character I genuinely want to return as a squadmember, if that one conversation between her and grunt is any indication on how she would be as herself then she would probably end up being another loved evil bioware character like HK-47 or Edwin, evil but comedic enough for people to ignore the evil

Also, is there a plot hole when it comes to morinth joining your team? she doesn't seem to know who shepard is but as soon as samara and her start fighting she seems to know that shepard is putting together a team

"I'm as strong as she is, let me join you."

Join... in what? To her, Shepard was just another random she'd picked up at a bar. I agree. But I think the issues go further than that. Why would she go along with Shepard at all? She's not getting paid, she's not doing it out of a sense of duty or honor and the only thing she might want, her mother dead, has already happened. There's also nothing stopping her from leaving.

The way they forced that decision was atrocious.

[Xilizhra]

Join... in what? To her, Shepard was just another random she'd picked up at a bar. I agree. But I think the issues go further than that. Why would she go along with Shepard at all? She's not getting paid, she's not doing it out of a sense of duty or honor and the only thing she might want, her mother dead, has already happened. There's also nothing stopping her from leaving.

The way they forced that decision was atrocious.

Perhaps she felt genuine gratitude and/or attraction?

[thatguy212]

Xilizhra wrote...

Join... in what? To her, Shepard was just another random she'd picked up at a bar. I agree. But I think the issues go further than that. Why would she go along with Shepard at all? She's not getting paid, she's not doing it out of a sense of duty or honor and the only thing she might want, her mother dead, has already happened. There's also nothing stopping her from leaving.

The way they forced that decision was atrocious.

Perhaps she felt genuine gratitude and/or attraction?

Maybe she just like the idea of constantly being in danger, i mean after 400 years of being hunted by samara you'd probably get used to the excitement, so maybe she just did it to fight off boredom

[Asenza]

thatguy212 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Join... in what? To her, Shepard was just another random she'd picked up at a bar. I agree. But I think the issues go further than that. Why would she go along with Shepard at all? She's not getting paid, she's not doing it out of a sense of duty or honor and the only thing she might want, her mother dead, has already happened. There's also nothing stopping her from leaving.

The way they forced that decision was atrocious.

Perhaps she felt genuine gratitude and/or attraction?

Maybe she just like the idea of constantly being in danger, i mean after 400 years of being hunted by samara you'd probably get used to the excitement, so maybe she just did it to fight off boredom

Maybe, maybe it was genuine gratitude and/or attraction... but she needs to say that, or show us that. We don't see it. We can make it up, but it doesn't change the fact that we are forced to make up our own reasons because the narrative didn't do a good enough job of explaining itself.

[ObserverStatus]

I approve of this. Yay Morinth!

[Doug4130]

Hope they keep her in ME3 and flesh out her character a bit

[AdmiralCheez]

Asenza wrote...

"I'm as strong as she is, let me join you."

Join... in what? To her, Shepard was just another random she'd picked up at a bar. I agree. But I think the issues go further than that. Why would she go along with Shepard at all? She's not getting paid, she's not doing it out of a sense of duty or honor and the only thing she might want, her mother dead, has already happened. There's also nothing stopping her from leaving.

The way they forced that decision was atrocious.

Smelled like cut dialogue to me.

+ 1 Morinth support for all the reasons already mentioned in this thread.  Sooo much potential, such a tragic character but at the same time loves what she is and makes no apologies...  Awesome.

Even though I side with Samara 90% of the time.

(Xil, that av looks good on you *so happy to see people using my stuff*)

[Xilizhra]

Maybe, maybe it was genuine gratitude and/or attraction... but she needs to say that, or show us that. We don't see it. We can make it up, but it doesn't change the fact that we are forced to make up our own reasons because the narrative didn't do a good enough job of explaining itself.

This is why retcons can only help her character, by allowing one to exist.

(Xil, that av looks good on you *so happy to see people using my stuff*)

Ah, thanks. The color scheme of my old one got a bit dull. And yes, your avatar selection was quite good.