878 réponses à ce sujet

[RagnarsGirl]

SandTrout wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Some people here really need to read the Codex entries.

The codex entries are lies!

I wouldn't go that far, but like any information, you need to consider the context of its source.

That's profound and totally true. Good point.

[RagnarsGirl]

1136342t54 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Some people here really need to read the Codex entries.

The codex entries are lies!

Really? I just memorised it word for word after you told me to READ THE CODEX..

[PauseforEffect]

Xeranx wrote...

I never said Morinth was a monster.  I don't agree with that stance because the evidence isn't there to make a conclusion.  Any and all conclusions are based on heresay and contrivances.  

I think Morinth joins Shepard because she feels Shepard might be special and might survive, but I won't romanticize it since people against Morinth are more apt to label any of her supporters as demented or anything along that line.

Nah, Morinth supporters are not demented. Some simply like her character or her abilities more than Samara. I just would rather that whatever decisions are made about a character are coming from information that's as accurate as possible.
Although I think the scene where Morinth kills Shepard shows that she knew all along that the commander was not going to survive.

[1136342t54_]

PrimalEden wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

I never said Morinth was a monster.  I don't agree with that stance because the evidence isn't there to make a conclusion.  Any and all conclusions are based on heresay and contrivances.  

I think Morinth joins Shepard because she feels Shepard might be special and might survive, but I won't romanticize it since people against Morinth are more apt to label any of her supporters as demented or anything along that line.

Nah, Morinth supporters are not demented. Some simply like her character or her abilities more than Samara. I just would rather that whatever decisions are made about a character are coming from information that's as accurate as possible.
Although I think the scene where Morinth kills Shepard shows that she knew all along that the commander was not going to survive.

This I would like to have Morinth as a more permanent party member but its obvious you can't necessarily trust her at all. With Samara she may even want to kill me after the SM but she seems to want to do it after she leaves and its highly unlikely you would find her again since Justicars mostly operate in Asari Space and the only planet in Asari space you go to is Thessia. She could easily be operating somewhere else. Plus I'd suspect the Asari would force all Justicars to focus on the war and ignore there code. Pretty much similar to the entire Justicar order taking the oath of subsimation.

With Morinth I have to worry about her trying to control my teammates and since she constantly wants to meld with Shepard would make me more likely to just execute her after the Suicide Mission. Samara would likely be fighting in the war and Morinth would stay low the entire time.

Morinth could have been a sympathetic figure but it was quite obvious her sole purpose was to keep killing.

[RagnarsGirl]

1136342t54 wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

I never said Morinth was a monster.  I don't agree with that stance because the evidence isn't there to make a conclusion.  Any and all conclusions are based on heresay and contrivances.  

I think Morinth joins Shepard because she feels Shepard might be special and might survive, but I won't romanticize it since people against Morinth are more apt to label any of her supporters as demented or anything along that line.

Nah, Morinth supporters are not demented. Some simply like her character or her abilities more than Samara. I just would rather that whatever decisions are made about a character are coming from information that's as accurate as possible.
Although I think the scene where Morinth kills Shepard shows that she knew all along that the commander was not going to survive.

This I would like to have Morinth as a more permanent party member but its obvious you can't necessarily trust her at all. With Samara she may even want to kill me after the SM but she seems to want to do it after she leaves and its highly unlikely you would find her again since Justicars mostly operate in Asari Space and the only planet in Asari space you go to is Thessia. She could easily be operating somewhere else. Plus I'd suspect the Asari would force all Justicars to focus on the war and ignore there code. Pretty much similar to the entire Justicar order taking the oath of subsimation.

With Morinth I have to worry about her trying to control my teammates and since she constantly wants to meld with Shepard would make me more likely to just execute her after the Suicide Mission. Samara would likely be fighting in the war and Morinth would stay low the entire time.

Morinth could have been a sympathetic figure but it was quite obvious her sole purpose was to keep killing.

Her sole purpose is to keep killing?Where is the conclusive proof?

[Xeranx]

PrimalEden wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

I never said Morinth was a monster.  I don't agree with that stance because the evidence isn't there to make a conclusion.  Any and all conclusions are based on heresay and contrivances.  

I think Morinth joins Shepard because she feels Shepard might be special and might survive, but I won't romanticize it since people against Morinth are more apt to label any of her supporters as demented or anything along that line.

Nah, Morinth supporters are not demented. Some simply like her character or her abilities more than Samara. I just would rather that whatever decisions are made about a character are coming from information that's as accurate as possible.
Although I think the scene where Morinth kills Shepard shows that she knew all along that the commander was not going to survive.

Speaking of information that's as accurate as possible, anything anyone says about what happened is assumed by the viewer and then we have a game over screen.  

I mentioned before that when that happened I went back to earlier save states to see if there was anything I missed.  Meaning that what happened was entirely unclear to me.  I mean, why would I get a game over screen unless something was supposed to happen that didn't?  In the history of videogames the gameover screen signifies a failing.  The only time Shepard can actually die in ME2 is after setting up the explosion on the Collector station.

If they were trying to get the message across that Shepard dies no matter what then they chose the wrong method to illustrate that as far as I'm concerned.  And the way they displayed it offers no fallout for the action and, most importantly, no reaction from Morinth to show us that she "knew" anything.  

The only reason I or anyone else is able to say that Morinth's character has room to go in either good or evil direction is that the narrative doesn't try to make anything conclusive.  Morinth just stands there after Shepard falls.  The smile beforehand could be anything.  I can attribute it to Morinth being happy that she's going to kill Shepard for revenge because she actually cared about her mother otherwise she would have found some way to kill her over the last 400 years instead of running.  That smile can be attributed to her expecting Shepard to be fine, or that smile can reflect yours and others view that Morinth was taking joy in Shepard's death because of the power she'd get.  Three very probable explanations just for a few seconds of Morinth smiling.  

So how is that scene proof of anything other than Shepard can't survive?

[1136342t54_]

RagnarsGirl wrote...

Her sole purpose is to keep killing?Where is the conclusive proof?

What proof is there that she doesn't want to? Even if we say she is a Saint the fact that she has killed for so long makes her addicted. She can't stop killing at this point. She could stop for a few decades but eventually she will kill again. Are you saying that her condition isn't addictive?

[Xeranx]

1136342t54 wrote...

This I would like to have Morinth as a more permanent party member but its obvious you can't necessarily trust her at all. With Samara she may even want to kill me after the SM but she seems to want to do it after she leaves and its highly unlikely you would find her again since Justicars mostly operate in Asari Space and the only planet in Asari space you go to is Thessia. She could easily be operating somewhere else. Plus I'd suspect the Asari would force all Justicars to focus on the war and ignore there code. Pretty much similar to the entire Justicar order taking the oath of subsimation.

With Morinth I have to worry about her trying to control my teammates and since she constantly wants to meld with Shepard would make me more likely to just execute her after the Suicide Mission. Samara would likely be fighting in the war and Morinth would stay low the entire time.

Morinth could have been a sympathetic figure but it was quite obvious her sole purpose was to keep killing.

I honestly don't know where you get Morinth's "obvious sole purpose" from when her motivations are unknown.  The more I repeat that, the more I'm sure it's being ignored outright.  

What would you say if it turned out that Morinth fought her condition?  Short term?  For a large amount of time?

What would you say if it turned out that Morinth (going with the vampire motif) had to abide her condition in order to keep moving thereby avoiding some form of torpor?

What would you say if it turned out that Morinth only focused on criminals and mercenaries?

What would you say if Nef turned out to be a patsy used by Aria to figure out if her suspicions on Morinth were accurate?

What would you say if Nef had a separate lifestyle, unknown to her mother, in which she was some kind of mercenary?

What would you say if every bad thing you thought you knew about Morinth was wrong?


I'm going to leave the Justicar thing alone.  I really think you missed something stated by Samara, but I'll leave it alone.

Modifié par Xeranx, 05 octobre 2011 - 09:29 .

[RagnarsGirl]

What proof is there that she doesn't want to? Even if we say she is a Saint the fact that she has killed for so long makes her addicted. She can't stop killing at this point. She could stop for a few decades but eventually she will kill again. Are you saying that her condition isn't addictive?



Are you testing my knowledge again Master..I will not fail :-)

Yes it is addictive. I don;t think she can stop without help. Her sole purpose is not to kill. Her sole purpose is to find a mate that can survive.

Modifié par RagnarsGirl, 05 octobre 2011 - 09:31 .

[1136342t54_]

RagnarsGirl wrote...

Are you testing my knowledge again Master..I will not fail :-)

Yes it is addictive. I don;t think she can stop without help. Her sole purpose is not to kill. Her sole purpose is to find a mate that can survive.

You have no proof that is even the case at all.

[1136342t54_]

Xeranx wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

This I would like to have Morinth as a more permanent party member but its obvious you can't necessarily trust her at all. With Samara she may even want to kill me after the SM but she seems to want to do it after she leaves and its highly unlikely you would find her again since Justicars mostly operate in Asari Space and the only planet in Asari space you go to is Thessia. She could easily be operating somewhere else. Plus I'd suspect the Asari would force all Justicars to focus on the war and ignore there code. Pretty much similar to the entire Justicar order taking the oath of subsimation.

With Morinth I have to worry about her trying to control my teammates and since she constantly wants to meld with Shepard would make me more likely to just execute her after the Suicide Mission. Samara would likely be fighting in the war and Morinth would stay low the entire time.

Morinth could have been a sympathetic figure but it was quite obvious her sole purpose was to keep killing.

I honestly don't know where you get Morinth's "obvious sole purpose" from when her motivations are unknown.  The more I repeat that, the more I'm sure it's being ignored outright.  

What would you say if it turned out that Morinth fought her condition?  Short term?  For a large amount of time?

What would you say if it turned out that Morinth (going with the vampire motif) had to abide her condition in order to keep moving thereby avoiding some form of torpor?

What would you say if it turned out that Morinth only focused on criminals and mercenaries?

What would you say if Nef turned out to be a patsy used by Aria to figure out if her suspicions on Morinth were accurate?

What would you say if Nef had a separate lifestyle, unknown to her mother, in which she was some kind of mercenary?

What would you say if every bad thing you thought you knew about Morinth was wrong?


I'm going to leave the Justicar thing alone.  I really think you missed something stated by Samara, but I'll leave it alone.

Those are a lot of what ifs you know.

The fact is she is addicted to killing/melding. Saying its her purpose in life is the wrong word but so far it is the main thing she wants to do. She is addicted to it and it is stated time and time again. Morinth can't stop. If she really didn't want to kill she could have left Asari space or went into hiding somewhere within Asari space. She never had to use her powers. Morinth herself stated she acted as if she was her mother to escape Thessia. It would be difficult but not impossible to escape without using her powers. Even Samara says she is very intelligent.

Edit: I wasn't reading any of your posts since I wasn't responding towards you.

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 05 octobre 2011 - 09:36 .

[RagnarsGirl]

1136342t54 wrote...

RagnarsGirl wrote...

Are you testing my knowledge again Master..I will not fail :-)

Yes it is addictive. I don;t think she can stop without help. Her sole purpose is not to kill. Her sole purpose is to find a mate that can survive.

You have no proof that is even the case at all.

I have proof, Let me remind you of a conversation she has with shep. 'If anyone can survie..(its You).."

[PauseforEffect]

Xeranx wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

Nah, Morinth supporters are not demented. Some simply like her character or her abilities more than Samara. I just would rather that whatever decisions are made about a character are coming from information that's as accurate as possible.
Although I think the scene where Morinth kills Shepard shows that she knew all along that the commander was not going to survive.

Speaking of information that's as accurate as possible, anything anyone says about what happened is assumed by the viewer and then we have a game over screen.  

I mentioned before that when that happened I went back to earlier save states to see if there was anything I missed.  Meaning that what happened was entirely unclear to me.  I mean, why would I get a game over screen unless something was supposed to happen that didn't?  In the history of videogames the gameover screen signifies a failing.  The only time Shepard can actually die in ME2 is after setting up the explosion on the Collector station.

If they were trying to get the message across that Shepard dies no matter what then they chose the wrong method to illustrate that as far as I'm concerned.  And the way they displayed it offers no fallout for the action and, most importantly, no reaction from Morinth to show us that she "knew" anything.  

The only reason I or anyone else is able to say that Morinth's character has room to go in either good or evil direction is that the narrative doesn't try to make anything conclusive.  Morinth just stands there after Shepard falls.  The smile beforehand could be anything.  I can attribute it to Morinth being happy that she's going to kill Shepard for revenge because she actually cared about her mother otherwise she would have found some way to kill her over the last 400 years instead of running.  That smile can be attributed to her expecting Shepard to be fine, or that smile can reflect yours and others view that Morinth was taking joy in Shepard's death because of the power she'd get.  Three very probable explanations just for a few seconds of Morinth smiling.  

So how is that scene proof of anything other than Shepard can't survive?

Hoo boy, I'd have to drag references from emotional intelligence and body language interpretations that would derail this thread into another train wreck.
As I said in another thread, no more. I gotta take a rest from this particular discussion. I'm certain others would be happy to oblige.

[1136342t54_]

RagnarsGirl wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

RagnarsGirl wrote...

Are you testing my knowledge again Master..I will not fail :-)

Yes it is addictive. I don;t think she can stop without help. Her sole purpose is not to kill. Her sole purpose is to find a mate that can survive.

You have no proof that is even the case at all.

I have proof, Let me remind you of a conversation she has with shep. 'If anyone can survie..(its You).."

That isn't proof that is her stating an opinion about Shepard's possible survival not about her reasons for murdering hundreds of people.

[RagnarsGirl]

PrimalEden wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

Nah, Morinth supporters are not demented. Some simply like her character or her abilities more than Samara. I just would rather that whatever decisions are made about a character are coming from information that's as accurate as possible.
Although I think the scene where Morinth kills Shepard shows that she knew all along that the commander was not going to survive.

Speaking of information that's as accurate as possible, anything anyone says about what happened is assumed by the viewer and then we have a game over screen.  

I mentioned before that when that happened I went back to earlier save states to see if there was anything I missed.  Meaning that what happened was entirely unclear to me.  I mean, why would I get a game over screen unless something was supposed to happen that didn't?  In the history of videogames the gameover screen signifies a failing.  The only time Shepard can actually die in ME2 is after setting up the explosion on the Collector station.

If they were trying to get the message across that Shepard dies no matter what then they chose the wrong method to illustrate that as far as I'm concerned.  And the way they displayed it offers no fallout for the action and, most importantly, no reaction from Morinth to show us that she "knew" anything.  

The only reason I or anyone else is able to say that Morinth's character has room to go in either good or evil direction is that the narrative doesn't try to make anything conclusive.  Morinth just stands there after Shepard falls.  The smile beforehand could be anything.  I can attribute it to Morinth being happy that she's going to kill Shepard for revenge because she actually cared about her mother otherwise she would have found some way to kill her over the last 400 years instead of running.  That smile can be attributed to her expecting Shepard to be fine, or that smile can reflect yours and others view that Morinth was taking joy in Shepard's death because of the power she'd get.  Three very probable explanations just for a few seconds of Morinth smiling.  

So how is that scene proof of anything other than Shepard can't survive?

Hoo boy, I'd have to drag references from emotional intelligence and body language interpretations that would derail this thread into another train wreck.
As I said in another thread, no more. I gotta take a rest from this particular discussion. I'm certain others would be happy to oblige.

I'm going to have to second that motion.  I've been waving the "I love Morinth Flag" for a short bit and i'm tired of this discussion.

It's been dragging on and on. There is no black and white when it comes to Morinth. I think Bioware is playing us.
Why give you the option of saving Morinth? Why did you have to killl Samara? One or the other? 

They offer pages and pages of information about the asari and other races, but so little information on the Ardat-Yakshi.  

Whether you play shep as renegade or paargon he/she is ultimatelyis not a conclusive "bad guy" he saves the galaxy for crying out loud. Why would he side himself with Morinth if she was total bad news? It's not like he didn't question cerbrus about their intentions. He sides with them because "they helping humanity" when no-one else is. 

Sighning off from this discussion
RagnarsGirl

P.S I'm going to start my own thread.
Why all the lead characters male?

[RagnarsGirl]

1136342t54 wrote...

RagnarsGirl wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

RagnarsGirl wrote...

Are you testing my knowledge again Master..I will not fail :-)

Yes it is addictive. I don;t think she can stop without help. Her sole purpose is not to kill. Her sole purpose is to find a mate that can survive.

You have no proof that is even the case at all.

I have proof, Let me remind you of a conversation she has with shep. 'If anyone can survie..(its You).."

That isn't proof that is her stating an opinion about Shepard's possible survival not about her reasons for murdering hundreds of people.

I really don't think I would call it murder..thats not what it is..I'm going to agree to disagree.
You had some valid points(that was hard)..................................... Catch you on another thread.
Don't konw what time zone you in but its LATE where I am

[Xeranx]

1136342t54 wrote...

Those are a lot of what ifs you know.

The fact is she is addicted to killing/melding. Saying its her purpose in life is the wrong word but so far it is the main thing she wants to do. She is addicted to it and it is stated time and time again. Morinth can't stop. If she really didn't want to kill she could have left Asari space or went into hiding somewhere within Asari space. She never had to use her powers. Morinth herself stated she acted as if she was her mother to escape Thessia. It would be difficult but not impossible to escape without using her powers. Even Samara says she is very intelligent.

So in a story of what ifs you still make factual statements when they can't be supported or stand on such shaky ground that they can be undermined?  What's the point?

Saying that it's something she wants to do is incorrect as well because you don't know what she wants.  I don't know what she wants.  She could hate everything about herself and reluctantly embraces her condition as she hasn't found a way to deal with it.

It's an addiction which may have started innocently.  The way everything is told leads me to believe that Morinth didn't know about it and that's a very probable scenario.  So if Morinth wants help (which we don't know if she does or not) there's nothing that says she would get the help she needs.  She either lives a pampered lifestyle in seclusion or she's killed on the run.  With the former, the only upside is that she gets to live the next 560 years behind a wall.  The most we can assume and be sure of is that she wants freedom.  I can also reasonably assume that she doesn't want to die.

Edit: I wasn't reading any of your posts since I wasn't responding towards you.

That was a more general statement of the statement being ignored.  Not really that you ignored it though it's true by your statements that you either never saw it or the former applies.

[Xeranx]

PrimalEden wrote...

Hoo boy, I'd have to drag references from emotional intelligence and body language interpretations that would derail this thread into another train wreck.
As I said in another thread, no more. I gotta take a rest from this particular discussion. I'm certain others would be happy to oblige.

I'm not versed on emotional intelligence so I would have to look it up to get what you're trying to say.  Body language interpretation I'm not well versed in the study of that either.   However, body language can't be applied to the scene.  We only see her back when Shepard falls.  Any look on her face that could lead us to any ideas of what she actually wanted is obscured by biotic imagery.  So trying to state what Morinth's intentions were in any factual way (for or against her) is unsupportable.

[who would know]

Morinth's actual dialogue was a little overbearing at times, but the voice itself was great, and a really refreshing change of pace from the absolute frigidity that was Samara.

Modifié par who would know, 19 octobre 2011 - 12:34 .

[D.Kain]

Xeranx wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

Hoo boy, I'd have to drag references from emotional intelligence and body language interpretations that would derail this thread into another train wreck.
As I said in another thread, no more. I gotta take a rest from this particular discussion. I'm certain others would be happy to oblige.

I'm not versed on emotional intelligence so I would have to look it up to get what you're trying to say.  Body language interpretation I'm not well versed in the study of that either.   However, body language can't be applied to the scene.  We only see her back when Shepard falls.  Any look on her face that could lead us to any ideas of what she actually wanted is obscured by biotic imagery.  So trying to state what Morinth's intentions were in any factual way (for or against her) is unsupportable.

And PrimalEden is probably talking about emotions that she showed when Shepard agreed to melding, which are not so strange at all.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

There is an inconsistency about Ardat-Yakshi that is nagging me at the moment...

When asking about the condition, Samara answers that 'there are three Ardat-Yakshi in existence today. And I have three daughters. It is as it seems.' But then, in the codex entry, it says that around 5% of Asari are Ardat-Yakshi.

There has to be something wrong here...

[thatguy212]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

There is an inconsistency about Ardat-Yakshi that is nagging me at the moment...

When asking about the condition, Samara answers that 'there are three Ardat-Yakshi in existence today. And I have three daughters. It is as it seems.' But then, in the codex entry, it says that around 5% of Asari are Ardat-Yakshi.

There has to be something wrong here...

there's also mention of a monastery filled with them that make honey mead and such, which is another inconsistency because aren't they given the choice to live in solitude or be killed?

[Radahldo]

I don't think they meant actual solitude. Ultimately no matter how many are there in the monastery and how much contact they have with eachother, they are still cut off from the spontaneous joys of the world-- I think that is what was meant by solitude.
Also, Leper colonies would probably be the closest analog, rather than the sort of thing one might picture with the word monastery

Modifié par Radahldo, 18 octobre 2011 - 11:06 .

[Not the Droid]

Not to oversimply but why don't the Ardat-yakshi's just well mate with each other...I know this takes away choice and all but no one dies well you would figure.

[lost.long.ago]

Xeranx wrote...

Morinth could have been a sympathetic figure but it was quite obvious her sole purpose was to keep killin
What would you say if it turned out that Morinth only focused on criminals and mercenaries?

What would you say if Nef turned out to be a patsy used by Aria to figure out if her suspicions on Morinth were accurate?

What would you say if Nef had a separate lifestyle, unknown to her mother, in which she was some kind of mercenary?

I'm going to leave the Justicar thing alone.  I really think you missed something stated by Samara, but I'll leave it alone.

Erm, mama Nef said Nef kept to herself/ didn't go out much... so, I'm thinking Nef having that seperate lifestyle= super unlikely.  Plus, the diary was pretty innocent, though I guess you could argue it was staged (but then why do we assume anything in the game is true, if it could all be staged?).  And we know Morinth goes for someone with a creative spark, and the Nef = good girl sculptor scenario fulfilled that well, but we have no idea as to how/why the mercenary scenario would work....

I'm not saying these thinks aren't possible.  Anything is possible.  Morinth really could've already killed Samara and this was just some other asari that went by the same name or took up the persona or something.  It's possible.  And she's allergic to cottoncandy...

But, the bottom line is, it's not probable.... no matter how much I love the tragic, misunderstood criminal scenario, it's really not probable :\\
You can never truly know anything for certain, but you can be pretty sure of things.  When all of the evidence points one way, you kinda have to give it some credit, even if you keep hoping otherwise.

Modifié par lost.long.ago, 19 octobre 2011 - 02:53 .