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[PauseforEffect]

D.Kain wrote...

And PrimalEden is probably talking about emotions that she showed when Shepard agreed to melding, which are not so strange at all.

Nah, I was nuts for continuing this discussion this long anyway. It's the Sheldon Cooper in me, I swear!
Nonetheless, every character is going to face criticism. This is just one that has no satisfactory defense.

[D.Kain]

Not the Droid wrote...

Not to oversimply but why don't the Ardat-yakshi's just well mate with each other...I know this takes away choice and all but no one dies well you would figure.

That is one of my questions. It seems like asati don't want AY to mate. They keep them in seperate seclusions instead of putting them together for one. Atleast that's how I got it so far.  There are only 2 more AY in that particular seclusion Morinth ran from, and both are her sisters. 

Nobody knows what happens when 2 AY mate, here's my theory.

AY nervous system seems stronger then asari or any other race for that matter, since asari have the most advanced one, seeing how they can even dominate other organisms. I would imagine that if 2 AY mate they would get both euphoria and enourmous pain afterwards. Euphoria from melding and getting something from the other AY, which would be taking a lot, since AY's have a lot to offer (maybe the reason Morinth might have targeted specific people, that had a stronger/advanced in some way nervous system) , and becoming stronger. Pain from suffering the take away from the other AY, that is if their nervous system isn't strong enough in the first place to not get overloaded, maybe they would just feel completely exausted. Maybe if the damage of the nervous systems couldn't be regenerated ( if it happens ) the 2 AY wouldn't actually get stronger, or maybe would even die. Even so, that doesn't seem bad. Maybe 2 AY would get familiar with each others nervous systems and their melding would get casual, like other asari, they wouldn't get very high, because there is nothing more to take, and wouldn't feel the pain because nothing would be taken, or would take just a little something new.

Either way the whole situation seems like a win-win situation: 
1) They fall in love, meld and die in an euphoria.
2) They survive and can meld more with eachother. They also get stronger the first time they meld.
3) They don't want to meld at all. 

AY would probably be better off in monogamy, but if they would want to have multiple partners in life, they would have to count their meldings with different AY, and meld only with those that had the same amount of meldings, lest one of them kill the other because of the huge difference in strength. 

Anyway yeah.

Modifié par D.Kain, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:41 .

[Zeenof]

D.Kain wrote...

Not the Droid wrote...

Not to oversimply but why don't the Ardat-yakshi's just well mate with each other...I know this takes away choice and all but no one dies well you would figure.

That is one of my questions. It seems like asati don't want AY to mate. They keep them in seperate seclusions instead of putting them together for one. Atleast that's how I got it so far.  There are only 2 more AY in that particular seclusion Morinth ran from, and both are her sisters. 

Nobody knows what happens when 2 AY mate, here's my theory.

AY nervous system seems stronger then asari or any other race for that matter, since asari have the most advanced one, seeing how they can even dominate other organisms. I would imagine that if 2 AY mate they would get both euphoria and enourmous pain afterwards. Euphoria from melding and getting something from the other AY, which would be taking a lot, since AY's have a lot to offer (maybe the reason Morinth might have targeted specific people, that had a stronger/advanced in some way nervous system) , and becoming stronger. Pain from suffering the take away from the other AY, that is if their nervous system isn't strong enough in the first place to not get overloaded, maybe they would just feel completely exausted. Maybe if the damage of the nervous systems couldn't be regenerated ( if it happens ) the 2 AY wouldn't actually get stronger, or maybe would even die. Even so, that doesn't seem bad. Maybe 2 AY would get familiar with each others nervous systems and their melding would get casual, like other asari, they wouldn't get very high, because there is nothing more to take, and wouldn't feel the pain because nothing would be taken, or would take just a little something new.

Either way the whole situation seems like a win-win situation: 
1) They fall in love, meld and die in an euphoria.
2) They survive and can meld more with eachother. They also get stronger the first time they meld.
3) They don't want to meld at all. 

AY would probably be better off in monogamy, but if they would want to have multiple partners in life, they would have to count their meldings with different AY, and meld only with those that had the same amount of meldings, lest one of them kill the other because of the huge difference in strength. 

Anyway yeah.

Not really gonna talk about my personal oppinion here, to avoid any unecessary arguing,  but the last 2 AY are sisters. Well, we don't know if they're only half sisters or not but I digress. I'm not sure if that makes a difference in the world of the Asari.

[D.Kain]

Zeenof wrote...

Not really gonna talk about my personal oppinion here, to avoid any unecessary arguing,  but the last 2 AY are sisters. Well, we don't know if they're only half sisters or not but I digress. I'm not sure if that makes a difference in the world of the Asari.

Morinth's sisters are not the last 2 AY. They are the only 2 AY in that particular seclusion. There are whole bunch of other AY out there, in different places. 

And yes, that wouldn make a difference, AY could mate. But would really make a difference is destroying seclusions.

Modifié par D.Kain, 19 octobre 2011 - 07:18 .

[Zeenof]

D.Kain wrote...

Zeenof wrote...

Not really gonna talk about my personal oppinion here, to avoid any unecessary arguing,  but the last 2 AY are sisters. Well, we don't know if they're only half sisters or not but I digress. I'm not sure if that makes a difference in the world of the Asari.

Morinth's sisters are not the last 2 AY. They are the only 2 AY in that particular seclusion. There are whole bunch of other AY out there, in different places. 

And yes, that wouldn make a difference, AY could mate. But would really make a difference is destroying seclusions.

Hm. I could of sworn Samara said something along the lines of, "There are only 3 AY around right now and I have 3 children. It is as it sounds." I suppose I could be thinking of it wrong. It has been awhile.

[D.Kain]

Zeenof wrote...

Hm. I could of sworn Samara said something along the lines of, "There are only 3 AY around right now and I have 3 children. It is as it sounds." I suppose I could be thinking of it wrong. It has been awhile.

Samara said that she personally, knows only 3 AY. Here's a line straight from the codex: 
...Contrary to popular belief, Ardat-Yakshi are neither extremely rare (around one per cent of asari dwell on the AY spectrum), nor are they all murderers....

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Zeenof wrote...

Hm. I could of sworn Samara said something along the lines of, "There are only 3 AY around right now and I have 3 children. It is as it sounds." I suppose I could be thinking of it wrong. It has been awhile.

She did. I raised this issue on the previous page. Samara definately says that, yet the codex entry for Ardat-Yakshi says this:

'Contrary to popular belief, Ardat-Yakshi are neither extremely rare (around one per cent of asari dwell on the AY spectrum), nor are they all murderers. Most cultivate and discard countless exploitative or abusive relationships during their legally marginal lives. Despite rumors of Ardat-Yakshi syndicates, by nature Ardat-Yakshi are incapable of long-term cooperation.'

So which is true?

[D.Kain]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Zeenof wrote...

Hm. I could of sworn Samara said something along the lines of, "There are only 3 AY around right now and I have 3 children. It is as it sounds." I suppose I could be thinking of it wrong. It has been awhile.

She did. I raised this issue on the previous page. Samara definately says that, yet the codex entry for Ardat-Yakshi says this:

'Contrary to popular belief, Ardat-Yakshi are neither extremely rare (around one per cent of asari dwell on the AY spectrum), nor are they all murderers. Most cultivate and discard countless exploitative or abusive relationships during their legally marginal lives. Despite rumors of Ardat-Yakshi syndicates, by nature Ardat-Yakshi are incapable of long-term cooperation.'

So which is true?

Samara says: There are only three AY that I know of.

[Xeranx]

lost.long.ago wrote...

Erm, mama Nef said Nef kept to herself/ didn't go out much... so, I'm thinking Nef having that seperate lifestyle= super unlikely.  Plus, the diary was pretty innocent, though I guess you could argue it was staged (but then why do we assume anything in the game is true, if it could all be staged?).  And we know Morinth goes for someone with a creative spark, and the Nef = good girl sculptor scenario fulfilled that well, but we have no idea as to how/why the mercenary scenario would work....

I'm not saying these thinks aren't possible.  Anything is possible.  Morinth really could've already killed Samara and this was just some other asari that went by the same name or took up the persona or something.  It's possible.  And she's allergic to cottoncandy...

But, the bottom line is, it's not probable.... no matter how much I love the tragic, misunderstood criminal scenario, it's really not probable :
You can never truly know anything for certain, but you can be pretty sure of things.  When all of the evidence points one way, you kinda have to give it some credit, even if you keep hoping otherwise.

If Nef doesn't go out much then what are her chances of getting together with Morinth in the first place?  If Morinth is supposed to be a hunter then Nef would have had to spark her interest.  There's no backstory to any of that.  We only get a victim and her "aggressor".  Also, Nef never mentions getting the password to the Afterlive VIP are from Morinth.  The way she talks seems to hint that she met Morinth in the VIP lounge.  If Nef doesn't go out much then how exactly, and possibly more importantly WHY, does she come to posses a password into a VIP area?

It's my opinion that the diary was staged.  Not by Nef, but by the writers.  Given everything we have that's supposed to build up this idea of Morinth being some monster from hell, there's nothing that ties them together.  Morinth's conversation with Shepard implies Nef wouldn't warrant a second look from her.  If you are nice with Morinth she shows disinterest.  Nef being a nice girl can't attract someone who is drawn to danger.  So Nef is not a suitable victim as a result.

That's one of the things that gives me hope for Morinth's character to be fleshed out more.  At this point I can't make any guess to her true nature because the evidence is scattered.  We have ill-fitting pieces to a puzzle that looks like it was recut so that the existing pieces could be made to fit.

[Asenza]

@ Xeranx,

Come on. Nef died, Morinth did it. Unless for some reason Nef was trying to kill Morinth and it was self-defense, it is Murder and Nef is an innocent victim.

She was a poor, lonely girl who wanted to have a good time, wanted to experience something she hadn't before, and that's why she went to the VIP room. It doesn't matter how she got Jaruut's name. It doesn't matter how she attracted Morinth, because Nef DID get a second look from Morinth. Morinth gave her drugs, sent her some notes, seduced her.

You can't say that information in the narrative was staged by the writers just because you don't like it. You need proof.

I have proof that the "mission" just before the Normandy is boarded by Collectors, the one that took all twelve of my combat-capable squadmates off in the shuttle, was done by a desperate writer who desperately needed to make a deadline or they would have lost their job.

Morinth is an unrepentant monster from hell, and everything about Samara's loyalty mission ties it all together.

Modifié par Asenza, 20 octobre 2011 - 12:02 .

[lost.long.ago]

Xeranx- Ah, now there is a far more persuasive argument than "what if" scenarios, and I'll definitely give it credit, even though I almost thought about arguing that you can't involve the writers if you're looking at it as a real-life scenario (but I don't want to).
  But I'm willing to place trust on the facts, and on Samara.  She's always been the wisest, best voice of reason in the game, if you ask me... I can't remember finding a single situation in which she said something that didn't seem completely ethical of justified.  She spent almost four-hundred years in Morinth's foot-steps (or some such number), and still thought her as a demon in need of extermination, even though she didn't want to.

It's like with any "mental disorder" that leads to crime; if you can treat it, do so, but if you can't, you have to stop it somehow.  (That somehow is where an ethical battle pops up, and I really don't want to start any bloodbaths in this post:?.)
In the end, Morinth choose to inflict pain upon others to fulfill her own needs, and that's not a good sign. 
I'd love for an alternative story to pop up, or a cure or something.  Don't get me wrong in that regard.  I like stories in which people are allowed to redeem themselves or become better, because it recognizes that people can change, and grow, and aren't always what they seem.  It just can't be cheap... it'll have to be amazing for it to work/ seem realistic... I mean, like, phenomenal... and then I'll love it .

I guess I'm really just saying don't use "what if"s to support the argument, when the "what if"s of the counter argument are slightly more grounded when it comes to in-game context.

Great post, and made me think of the writers... perhaps they missed somethings/ didn't mean for people to give Nef so much thought, since they are just human and game writing has limitations.  But, I hate thinking of BioWare as anything less than gods/godesses, so I think I might have to adopt your stance on that...
But, as of yet, I still want Samara back, thank you:P

Modifié par lost.long.ago, 20 octobre 2011 - 01:03 .

[lost.long.ago]

Asenza wrote...

@ Xeranx,

Come on. Nef died, Morinth did it. Unless for some reason Nef was trying to kill Morinth and it was self-defense, it is Murder and Nef is an innocent victim.

She was a poor, lonely girl who wanted to have a good time, wanted to experience something she hadn't before, and that's why she went to the VIP room. It doesn't matter how she got Jaruut's name. It doesn't matter how she attracted Morinth, because Nef DID get a second look from Morinth. Morinth gave her drugs, sent her some notes, seduced her.

You can't say that information in the narrative was staged by the writers just because you don't like it. You need proof.

I have proof that the "mission" just before the Normandy is boarded by Collectors, that took all twelve of my combat-capable squadmates off in the shuttle, was done by a desperate writer that needed to make a deadline or they would have lost their job.

Morinth is an unrepentant monster from hell, and everything about Samara's loyalty mission ties it all together.

Yep, this is still my argument when looking at the game for what it is rather than what the writers are trying to do...
if you look at it like a real-life scenario, as you're kinda supposed if you're pretending all these characters are real, then there would be no writers playing with your mind.  Any argument using writers would fall flat on its face... *shrugs*

[D.Kain]

@Xeranx this is useless. =D

@Lost.long.ago. Morinth has no psychological disorders. And if I was commander Shepard in real life I wouldn't change my decision of helping Morinth.

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

Anything trying to paint Morinth in a good light at this point wouldn't go over too well in my opinion. BioWare should keep her as the dangerous and remorseless predator that she is. We've got enough goody two shoes as squadmates anyway.

But I think one doesn't necesery has to be ''muahaha evil'' to be badass, flirty and easy going. 

Modifié par D.Kain, 20 octobre 2011 - 01:33 .

[Xeranx]

Asenza wrote...

@ Xeranx,

Come on. Nef died, Morinth did it. Unless for some reason Nef was trying to kill Morinth and it was self-defense, it is Murder and Nef is an innocent victim.

She was a poor, lonely girl who wanted to have a good time, wanted to experience something she hadn't before, and that's why she went to the VIP room. It doesn't matter how she got Jaruut's name. It doesn't matter how she attracted Morinth, because Nef DID get a second look from Morinth. Morinth gave her drugs, sent her some notes, seduced her.

You can't say that information in the narrative was staged by the writers just because you don't like it. You need proof.

I have proof that the "mission" just before the Normandy is boarded by Collectors, the one that took all twelve of my combat-capable squadmates off in the shuttle, was done by a desperate writer who desperately needed to make a deadline or they would have lost their job.

Morinth is an unrepentant monster from hell, and everything about Samara's loyalty mission ties it all together.

Yes, Nef died and Morinth did it.  But it doesn't make sense.

I can see Nef's reason for being in the story: to pull at the heart strings.  

I'm not saying it was staged because I don't like what happened.  That's reaching.  I'm saying it was staged because:

1. Nef generally keeps to herself.  

2. She has friends, but it's a small number -- if her mother is absolutely correct about her daughter.

3. Nef is meek.  If Morinth is drawn to dark and dangerous places what exactly is the draw to Nef who is neither dark and dangerous? 

Don't tell me it's what Samara said since Samara's goal is Morinth's death.  I'm not going to take the word of someone whose sole desire is the death of another rather than confinement, professes to kill cops that could have helped her to locate any information to find her target rather than proceed to wage war on the people who smuggled her target off world, and still tries to maintain some air of being virtuos.

4. Shepard 'is an artist on the battlefield'.   Morinth being drawn to like dark and dangerous places can find Shepard attractive, but if Shepard behaves meekly then (s)he loses Morinth's interest.  Therefore, what do Shepard and Nef have in common?  Nef is meek and Shepard isn't.  

5. It is my belief that someone who who hunts does so for the challenge if that is indeed the case with Morinth.  So a submissive person or personality is unwanted.  Again, Nef doesn't fits the profile for being left alone.

Shepard, a Spectre... even after helping Aria out if you gave her info on people looking to knock her of her perch, isn't able to get access without getting Jaruut's name first.  Which means Jaruut is someone at least of some importance.  That should lead us to know what Nef has been doing when she does get out of the house, but nothing is made of that.

There are a lot of questions with almost no answers.  The reasons or motives for actions that occurred don't match up.

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

Morinth is already flirty, badass, and easy going. 

Well yes. But why do we need to add ''psychotic evil'' to the mix? 

[Asenza]

D.Kain wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Morinth is already flirty, badass, and easy going. 

Well yes. But why do we need to add ''psychotic evil'' to the mix? 

Because it's true?

[Xeranx]

lost.long.ago wrote...

Xeranx- Ah, now there is a far more persuasive argument than "what if" scenarios, and I'll definitely give it credit, even though I almost thought about arguing that you can't involve the writers if you're looking at it as a real-life scenario (but I don't want to).
  But I'm willing to place trust on the facts, and on Samara.  She's always been the wisest, best voice of reason in the game, if you ask me... I can't remember finding a single situation in which she said something that didn't seem completely ethical of justified.  She spent almost four-hundred years in Morinth's foot-steps (or some such number), and still thought her as a demon in need of extermination, even though she didn't want to.

It's like with any "mental disorder" that leads to crime; if you can treat it, do so, but if you can't, you have to stop it somehow.  (That somehow is where an ethical battle pops up, and I really don't want to start any bloodbaths in this post:?.)
In the end, Morinth choose to inflict pain upon others to fulfill her own needs, and that's not a good sign. 
I'd love for an alternative story to pop up, or a cure or something.  Don't get me wrong in that regard.  I like stories in which people are allowed to redeem themselves or become better, because it recognizes that people can change, and grow, and aren't always what they seem.  It just can't be cheap... it'll have to be amazing for it to work/ seem realistic... I mean, like, phenomenal... and then I'll love it .

I guess I'm really just saying don't use "what if"s to support the argument, when the "what if"s of the counter argument are slightly more grounded when it comes to in-game context.

Great post, and made me think of the writers... perhaps they missed somethings/ didn't mean for people to give Nef so much thought, since they are just human and game writing has limitations.  But, I hate thinking of BioWare as anything less than gods/godesses, so I think I might have to adopt your stance on that...
But, as of yet, I still want Samara back, thank you:P

I involve the writers because of the fact that those holes exist where there should be none, but they're apparently giving you facts.  Samara says there are only three Ardat Yakshi in existence.  The codex contradicts that as well as the Turian on the CItadel.  How can I not include the writers such an instance of disconnect exists?  

Samara is also quite the hurricane.  She's not content to not stick her nose where it doesn't belong -- referencing Tuchanka.  She wages war against an entire criminal organization trying to get information when we find out before even talking to Anaya that each member of Eclipse gets their uniform after they kill someone.  Couple that with Wasea (leader of Eclipse on Illium) fighting against us it's painfully clear that Samara would have wiped them all out before she got her information.  And that information could have been obsolete by the time she was done killing everyone.  So how could she be justified in her actions?

Samara says that she would kill law enforcement officials for attempting to detain her, detaining her for more than a day, or if she's put in cuff or a cell.  Again, not a justifiable stance.

The "what if" scenarios were done to show how flexible Morinth's character truly is.  That each 'what if' statement is viable is a problem when people are making concrete statements about a character which we have very little concrete information on.  As such, Morinth is an under-done character.  You can't look at a wall with large blue streaks, but has white spots all over it and actually say that the wall was painted blue.  It's not a true statement.

In reference to the bold, the only thing we "know" about her "needs" is that she's compelled to meld with others.  Beyond that her goals can be anything.  I've made the statements in probably the last two pages of this thread and I think I've taken up enough space here so I'm not going to rehash them.  But since Morinth isn't pinned down, making any statements on her goals or motives is pure speculation.  There's no fact or proof of why she does anything beyond what she's compelled to do.

[D.Kain]

Asenza wrote...

Because it's true?

No. It's not. She is a completely sane person. Just talk to her.

[Xeranx]

lost.long.ago wrote...

Yep, this is still my argument when looking at the game for what it is rather than what the writers are trying to do...
if you look at it like a real-life scenario, as you're kinda supposed if you're pretending all these characters are real, then there would be no writers playing with your mind.  Any argument using writers would fall flat on its face... *shrugs*

Even in real life we try to find out the "why" of an action.  It's done in journalism, law enforcement, science, religion, and history.  And probably more that aren't coming to mind right now.  Who, what, when, where, why, and how.  We know the who, the what, know the when, the where doesn't matter in this case, we know the how (well actually there is one how I can ask), but we don't know the why.

Morinth was able to attempt to meld with someone her first time.  How was that allowed to happen?  Why was it allowed to happen?
 
Morinth would run from Samara.  Why?  

Morinth chooses to join up with Shepard rather than escape.  Why?  

Morinth elects to adopt Samara's persona though she doesn't like the outfit.  Why?  

Morinth wants Shepard to give consent to the meld.  Why?  

Morinth says she thinks Shepard will survive.  If she does really believe this then, why?

All that is supposed to come out either from the character or through discovery, but the only thing we get is that Nef died and Morinth was the cause.  Again, another set of questions (why and how) arise from that:

How does Nef become a victim?

Why does Nef become a victim?

How does Nef get the passcode?

Why does Nef get the passcode?

Why does Morinth tell us about Nef?

Why, if her goal is to meld with Shepard to kill him/her, does Morinth not attempt to play Shepard?

Again, all this is supposed to be made clear.  Either through the character or in discovery some other way, but it doesn't happen save for the one example.

Modifié par Xeranx, 20 octobre 2011 - 02:48 .

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

"Why do we need to take it away?" is the real question. It's already there so why try painting her in a good light now? 

But it's not there. She is not a saint, she is just a person with her pluses and minuses, like everybody else. And she is completely sane.