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[Asenza]

D.Kain wrote...

jreezy wrote...

"Why do we need to take it away?" is the real question. It's already there so why try painting her in a good light now? 

But it's not there. She is not a saint, she is just a person with her pluses and minuses, like everybody else. And she is completely sane.

So, the fact that she's murdered probably hundreds of people is a minutes solely for the satisfaction she gets from killing them (one that most people AND other in-game characters can't claim) and her positives are...?

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

jreezy wrote...

"Why do we need to take it away?" is the real question. It's already there so why try painting her in a good light now? 

But it's not there. She is not a saint, she is just a person with her pluses and minuses, like everybody else. And she is completely sane.

I'm not saying she isn't sane. Never said she was a saint either. She is psychotic. If you know the definition you can apply it to Morinth.

Psyhosis is about loosing reality and having hallucinations and etc. In other words insanity.

[Xeranx]

Asenza wrote...

So, the fact that she's murdered probably hundreds of people is a minutes solely for the satisfaction she gets from killing them (one that most people AND other in-game characters can't claim) and her positives are...?

Her using the meld for 'the "satisfaction" she gets' is not a fact.  It's not reinforced by her and there's nothing in the story that outright states this.  Everything stated says she gets smarter and faster.  What that means for her is also anyone's guess because we never hear about what it actually does for her.  Morinth claims feeling love of another which demonstrates her want of a connection.  You can say she's not interested in an actual connection, but who's right?  You or me and where is the proof that shores this up?

[D.Kain]

Asenza wrote...

So, the fact that she's murdered probably hundreds of people is a minutes solely for the satisfaction she gets from killing them (one that most people AND other in-game characters can't claim) and her positives are...?

She didn't kill people solely for satisfaction. Where do you people get this from.. Only an insane person would do that.

She has a lot of positives: Intelegence, strength, cunning, unbrakable spirit, phisical attractivness, devotion.

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

Look it up then get back to me. You'll understand why I call her psychotic when you do.

You say psyhotic, I look that up it get's my to psyhosis which is: 

1) a mental disorder characterized by symptoms, such asdelusions or hallucinations, 
that indicate impaired contactwith reality.

2) any severe form of mental disorder, as schizophrenia orparanoia.

Morinth doesn't fall under this.

[Asenza]

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

So, the fact that she's murdered probably hundreds of people is a minutes solely for the satisfaction she gets from killing them (one that most people AND other in-game characters can't claim) and her positives are...?

She didn't kill people solely for satisfaction. Where do you people get this from.. Only an insane person would do that.

She has a lot of positives: Intelegence, strength, cunning, unbrakable spirit, phisical attractivness, devotion.

Right. She's pretty, so it's ok that she kills people to satisfy her own personal cravings. Intelligence, an undying spirit,  and devotion... to pursuing her own selfish goals, which is wholesale murder.

@D.Kain,

She IS delusional. Morinth thinks it is ok to kill people because they die feeling pleasure. She thinks she is the Genetic Destiny of the Asari.

Modifié par Asenza, 20 octobre 2011 - 03:27 .

[D.Kain]

Asenza wrote...

Right. She's pretty, so it's ok that she kills people to satisfy her own personal cravings. Intelligence, an undying spirit,  and devotion... to pursuing her own selfish goals, which is wholesale murder.

She is no worse than those that wanted her in seclusion. They too were selfish. I am not going to let her be their victim.

Edit: We don't know what she ment by the genetic destiny. We don't know if she thinks that it is ok to kill people. Shepard killed thousands so?

Modifié par D.Kain, 20 octobre 2011 - 03:29 .

[lost.long.ago]

@ xeranx, I appreciate you take them time to construct complex and well thought out arguments, even though I continue to disagree with them.

The Samara line of there being only 3 AY has been well discussed; it's either a flaw, or Samara means it as there are three that she personally knows and is just mentioning the number so that Shepard will make the correlation between it and the number of daughters she has.  I take no sides here, but merely throw it out there.

Samara is bound by the code to not kill innocents, but to also not stop in the pursuit of justice.  She's obviously willing to try to avoid bloodshed, as she willing enlists Shepards help to avoid this when dealing with the officer.  It's possible this is once again her reasoning in asking for help with finishing Morinth.  Samara has lines drawn, whilst Morinth has none.  You don't have to trust her, I guess, but I do.

As for the questions about why Morinth was attracted to Nef if Nef wasn't BA:
Morinth, as a predator, knows better than to go after someone who is well-known to the area.  Samara specifically says that she goes for isolated targets.  As a predator, you have to weigh your options.  Nef had the creative spark and was relatively easy to lure in, and there would be no cover-up required.  Morinth still gives things a few days, just to be careful and possibly to try to shape the girl to her liking a bit more.
Shepard is dead for 2 years, so few people register his/her return, especially with the Council downplaying it.  Additionally, Morinth has never seen Shepard around before.  Best to go for the prey before while the conditions are good.  Plus, Shepard has a bunch of other staged qualities, making him/her irresistible.  AND Shepard can be 100% irresistible without taking a single criminal-like action, so there was no moral justification as to why Morinth would allow herself to meld with Shepard.
They're both viable catches in the predator scenario, but no matter what Nef is, Shepard is non-sensical pick in a scenario in which Morinth is morally justified.
That's one of my big issues there...

Xeranx wrote:
Her using the meld for 'the "satisfaction" she gets' is not a fact.
 It's not reinforced by her and there's nothing in the story that
outright states this.  Everything stated says she gets smarter and
faster.  What that means for her is also anyone's guess because we never
hear about what it actually does for her.  Morinth claims feeling love
of another which demonstrates her want of a connection.  You can say
she's not interested in an actual connection, but who's right?  You or
me and where is the proof that shores this up?

After killing hundreds of people, she stills wants to love someone, and continues to try to meld wth those whom she wants to connect with... she continues smashing her face into a brick wall without learning to stop.  One night stands are one of the deepest displays of affection on an ascended level, and doing something which has a 100% chance of killing your "loved one" truly demonstrates her desire to connect on another level, especially when you don't inform them of the dangers/ give them such a choice...

Modifié par lost.long.ago, 20 octobre 2011 - 03:33 .

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

Asenza wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

So, the fact that she's murdered probably hundreds of people is a minutes solely for the satisfaction she gets from killing them (one that most people AND other in-game characters can't claim) and her positives are...?

She thinks she is the Genetic Destiny of the Asari.

Kind of hard to fufill that role when you can't have children.

And we know that how? Did AY mate with eachother?

Modifié par D.Kain, 20 octobre 2011 - 03:34 .

[PauseforEffect]

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

Right. She's pretty, so it's ok that she kills people to satisfy her own personal cravings. Intelligence, an undying spirit,  and devotion... to pursuing her own selfish goals, which is wholesale murder.

She is no worse than those that wanted her in seclusion. They too were selfish. I am not going to let her be their victim.

Edit: We don't know what she ment by the genetic destiny. We don't know if she thinks that it is ok to kill people. Shepard killed thousands so?

You are one odd dude, Kain.
Anyway:
 Characteristics of Psychopath(Sociopath, Anti-social Personality Disorder)

• Glibness/superficial charm.
• Grandiose sense of self-worth.
• Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
• Pathological lying
• Conning/manipulative
• Lack of remorse or guilt
• Shallow affect
• Callous/lack of empathy
• Parasitic lifestyle
• Poor behavioral controls
• Promiscuous sexual behavior
• Early behavior problems
• Lack of realistic, long-term plans
• Impulsivity
• Irresponsibility
• Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
• Many short-term marital relationships
• Juvenile delinquency
• Revocation of conditional release
• Criminal versatility (Hare, 1986)

(Narcissism also a characteristic)
"It must be remembered that even the most severely and obviously disabled psychopath presents a technical appearance of sanity, often with high intellectual capacities and not infrequently succeeds in business or professional activities for short periods, some for considerable periods .Although they occasionally appear on casual inspection as successful members of the community, as able lawyers, executive or physicians, they do not, it seems, succeed in the sense of finding satisfaction of fulfillment in their own accomplishments. Nor do they, when the full story is known, appear to find this in an ordinary activity."
--H.Cleckley, "The Mask of Sanity"

[Xeranx]

lost.long.ago wrote...

@ xeranx, I appreciate you take them time to construct complex and well thought out arguments, even though I continue to disagree with them.

The Samara line of there being only 3 AY has been well discussed; it's either a flaw, or Samara means it as there are three that she personally knows and is just mentioning the number so that Shepard will make the correlation between it and the number of daughters she has.  I take no sides here, but merely throw it out there.

Samara is bound by the code to not kill innocents, but to also not stop in the pursuit of justice.  She's obviously willing to try to avoid bloodshed, as she willing enlists Shepards help to avoid this when dealing with the officer.  It's possible this is once again her reasoning in asking for help with finishing Morinth.  Samara has lines drawn, whilst Morinth has none.  You don't have to trust her, I guess, but I do.

As for the questions about why Morinth was attracted to Nef if Nef wasn't BA:
Morinth, as a predator, knows better than to go after someone who is well-known to the area.  Samara specifically says that she goes for isolated targets.  As a predator, you have to weigh your options.  Nef had the creative spark and was relatively easy to lure in, and there would be no cover-up required.  Morinth still gives things a few days, just to be careful and possibly to try to shape the girl to her liking a bit more.
Shepard is dead for 2 years, so few people register his/her return, especially with the Council downplaying it.  Additionally, Morinth has never seen Shepard around before.  Best to go for the prey before while the conditions are good.  Plus, Shepard has a bunch of other staged qualities, making him/her irresistible.  AND Shepard can be 100% irresistible without taking a single criminal-like action, so there was no moral justification as to why Morinth would allow herself to meld with Shepard.
They're both viable catches in the predator scenario, but no matter what Nef is, Shepard is non-sensical pick in a scenario in which Morinth is morally justified.
That's one of my big issues there...

Morinth took up dueling.  When looking for a duel you weigh your options.  You look for opponents who may be able to best you, but also has the same potential to lose.  You don't duel if you're not going to be presented with a challenge.  There's no point in dueling if that's the case.  If you knew you were going to succeed at everything you attempted would you be intrigued to continue or would you forget about it since you already know the outcome?  

The thrill of the hunt exists because there's a chance you may not succeed.  Nef isn't a challenge for Morinth and as such is ill-fit to be a potential victim.  The guy we see at the entrance has no chance with Morinth and we know this.  His attitude is full of amazement and wonder much like Nef's in her journal.   He looks forward to spending time with Morinth if he could as well.  So why is he not worth the time, but Nef is? 

Now you're saying Morinth would shape Nef.  Again, Nef doesn't present any challenge greater than the guy at the door to the VIP section.  He's agreeable and is interested in getting tickets to Expel 10.  The conditions are great with him, but he has no shot.

I don't understand what you mean in bold.

Xeranx wrote:
Her using the meld for 'the "satisfaction" she gets' is not a fact.
 It's not reinforced by her and there's nothing in the story that
outright states this.  Everything stated says she gets smarter and
faster.  What that means for her is also anyone's guess because we never
hear about what it actually does for her.  Morinth claims feeling love
of another which demonstrates her want of a connection.  You can say
she's not interested in an actual connection, but who's right?  You or
me and where is the proof that shores this up?

After killing hundreds of people, she stills wants to love someone, and continues to try to meld wth those whom she wants to connect with... she continues smashing her face into a brick wall without learning to stop.  One night stands are one of the deepest displays of affection on an ascended level, and doing something which has a 100% chance of killing your "loved one" truly demonstrates her desire to connect on another level, especially when you don't inform them of the dangers/ give them such a choice...

That last line should say "you or her" rather than "you or me".  I was trying to present the idea that Morinth may be interested in making a connection since she mentions it and following it up with the question as to whether she's actually playing Shepard or not.  Fouled that up. 

[D.Kain]

@PrimalEden

A whole bunch of those characteristics are true to the bigger part of our society, the other ones, we don't know if are true for Morinth. And of course you won't be happy as an outcast, you need people to connect with! And I'm not talking about melding with them, Shepard isn't brainwashed.

@jreezy I do not think that Morinth is talking random things. I think that there is something behind her words as a destiny of the asari, we just don't know what yet.

[lost.long.ago]

D.Kain wrote...

@PrimalEden

@jreezy I do not think that Morinth is talking random things. I think that there is something behind her words as a destiny of the asari, we just don't know what yet.

Well, on the flipside, everyone tries to justify/rationalize their existence and/or short-comings somehow...

[lost.long.ago]

@Xernax

I put that bit in bold to draw attention to another argument... I was hoping you had a way to still justify Morinth's actions as being good, despite Shepard having totally been a good person/ non-crime related...

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

lost.long.ago wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

@PrimalEden

@jreezy I do not think that Morinth is talking random things. I think that there is something behind her words as a destiny of the asari, we just don't know what yet.

Well, on the flipside, everyone tries to justify/rationalize their existence and/or short-comings somehow...

That's exactly what Morinth was doing when she said that "genetic destiny" line.

Maybe. We don't know that. Maybe the asari don't want to become AY as a species and that's why they are only 1%. Maybe they think that interspecies melding is better for deplomacy, and that if they all were AY and could meld only with each other they would lose that. 

[Xeranx]

lost.long.ago wrote...

@Xernax

I put that bit in bold to draw attention to another argument... I was hoping you had a way to still justify Morinth's actions as being good, despite Shepard having totally been a good person/ non-crime related...

You mean in approaching Shepard at all?

I mentioned this in another thread or more than one before, but I presented a case in which Shepard was an unknown to Morinth who would probably try and get the lay of the land so she knows where she might be weakest.  Shepard, being relatively new to her on Omega (not necessarily new to Omega) is someone she doesn't have any info on.  So when Shepard comes in and starts with the displays and getting involved in other people's business, Morinth needs to figure out who Shepard is and what (s)he is about.  Does this put her in a better light?  No, but then again, everything was done to make her appear evil when she might not be.

The reason I say this is her conversation with Shepard in which she tells Shepard to repeat her thoughts: "Tell me you'd kill for me.  Anything I want" and stuff like that.  I figured if she could persuade Shepard to do that it allows for her to get information she might need.  It's a bit of a reach, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.  Why I am also able to suggest that is she never begins the melding process.  Her biotics never flare up and we see it takes less than a few seconds to do.  So it still allows for her character to go in another direction.  Again, it isn't much, but the fact that there's so much left hanging and with the piece I mentioned earlier, it's really easy to write her going a different way.  She doesn't have to be evil.

[PauseforEffect]

D.Kain wrote...

@PrimalEden

A whole bunch of those characteristics are true to the bigger part of our society, the other ones, we don't know if are true for Morinth. And of course you won't be happy as an outcast, you need people to connect with! And I'm not talking about melding with them, Shepard isn't brainwashed.

A key characteristic of personality disorders is that the person afflicted with it is convinced that it's everyone else who has a problem, not them. It's tricky trying to help them understand that it's of their own doing.
People can have a few of those traits, but it does not make them so. In the case of a sociopath, that person is incapable of understanding other people's feelings, that they view people as just tools. They may learn to hide their antisocial tendencies by watching and copying acceptable behavior, but they are as emotionally tone-deaf to another's pain as they are to being held responsible for their actions. If a sociopath has a need to be around people, it's so they can make themselves feel good from manipulating others, not because they enjoy the pleasure of their company.

[D.Kain]

PrimalEden wrote...

A key characteristic of personality disorders is that the person afflicted with it is convinced that it's everyone else who has a problem, not them. It's tricky trying to help them understand that it's of their own doing.
People can have a few of those traits, but it does not make them so. In the case of a sociopath, that person is incapable of understanding other people's feelings, that they view people as just tools. They may learn to hide their antisocial tendencies by watching and copying acceptable behavior, but they are as emotionally tone-deaf to another's pain as they are to being held responsible for their actions. If a sociopath has a need to be around people, it's so they can make themselves feel good from manipulating others, not because they enjoy the pleasure of their company.

Morinth was just turned down by the rest of the society at an early age. That doesn't mean however that she is incapable of getting into new healthy relationships and understand them.

[PauseforEffect]

Samara's account gives that she was a selfish child despite being happy and free. AY have difficulty empathizing with people given their inability to meld successfully. That in of itself makes AY, like Morinth, inherent sociopaths.
Nowadays, sociopath's a cruel word for those who are taught with love and understanding. For those born with an inability to empathize with others, they can be taught to behave in a more acceptable way. So you are right to believe that a sociopath could be in a healthy relationship.
However in Morinth's case...I think I'm going to just agree to disagree.

[Lasien]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

@ ladyvader. I think Morinth deluded herself into thinking Shepard could survive, that's all.

@HH 3. I'm not convinced it's completely a pleasure thing, I think maybe she really had feelings for the ones she kills, and that it's become her perverted idea of love. Like I said, I think Morinth also deludes herself into thinking Shepard would survive. Maybe she doesn't and shes really evil, but I'd like to think Morinth is a more complex character than that (but who am I kidding, she was basically pointless to recruit)

I didn't feel like reading through the whole 20+ pages, so I'll just put this out there.

It seems to me Morinth is a person with a severe personality disorder, as well as an addict. Those two really don't go together. Basically, the asari are at fault here, because for all intents and purposes, they shut their psychiatric patient away in an asylum without researching a cure. Morinth is at fault as well, however, because she essentially is that one patient that stops taking their medicine because they have decided they are cured. She is a sociopath, and the reason she seems calm on the ship is because sociopaths are very, very, good at pretending to be a normal person. And she may well have a twisted view of what love is. Remember, her first love died while Morinth was jacked into their brain. I don't even want to contemplate what that would do to someone. But while we are remembering that, lets also remember that noone can help her with her addiction or disease until she decides that she is an addict/has the disease, and at endgame of ME2, she was convinced she was perfect.