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[D.Kain]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

It doesn't matter.
What she did is completely inexcusable.
Mindrape is never ever ever the right thing to do.

She could have been "heroic" by simply staying hidden and not mindrapeing people.

Then she'd be an example of someone who was given a bad hand and didn't let it own them.

Instead she embraced the killer they all said she would be.

And how would anybody find out about her heroicness? What would it change? Mages ebrace blood magic to fight templars, and that's understandable too, because they fight for their freedom. 

What I don't really get is why is Morinth considered SO bad? In my eyes any mercenery is worse than her. A merc basically kills any person, any innocent that he/she was ordered to kill for money, and they don't ask questions or care why or who. Kasumi is worse than Morinth for example, because she steals from other people, and kills those that where unfortunate to stand in her way at the wrong time. Atleast Morinth had her own purpose. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Stealing is not worse than killing.

Kasumi stole from people.

Morinth killed them.

Bit of a difference.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

People look down on Morinth because she's been presented as a sort of space succubus.

She seduces and then she kills.

And she enjoys it.

Most people consider that monstrous in a special way.

[D.Kain]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Stealing is not worse than killing.

Kasumi stole from people.

Morinth killed them.

Bit of a difference.

Oh? So you want to tell me that Kasumi never killed an innocent guard while stealing things? A guard that was working to feed his/her family? I guess Kasumi would have to be completely surprised on her loyalty mission after her first ever kill. And shadow strike is ofcourse not there to take out people.

Zaeed in no better than Morinth, Thane is no better, Jack is no better, Grunt is no better, Wrex is no better, Samara is no better.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Stealing is not worse than killing.

Kasumi stole from people.

Morinth killed them.

Bit of a difference.

Oh? So you want to tell me that Kasumi never killed an innocent guard while stealing things? A guard that was working to feed his/her family? I guess Kasumi would have to be completely surprised on her loyalty mission after her first ever kill. And shadow strike is ofcourse not there to take out people.

Zaeed in no better than Morinth, Thane is no better, Jack is no better, Grunt is no better, Wrex is no better, Samara is no better.

You genuinely don't see anything wrong with her behavior do you?

How many innocents has Morinth killed?

What of that villiage she enslaved? Those were enitre families destroyed. Do they count for nothing?
Don't answer I know that they don't to you.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 23 octobre 2011 - 08:49 .

[D.Kain]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

You genuinely don't see anything wrong with her behavior do you?

Her behavior? No, only her actions. But it is a dark world and there are a whole bunch of outlaws that are under Shepard and that are no better than her. If you can take them with you because of their skill to help stop the reapers, than I see no reason why she isn't welcome. On the scale, I'd say that Samara creeps me a lot more.

You gonna do count now? I wonder how many people Wrex killed as a krogan merc in his years.

Modifié par D.Kain, 23 octobre 2011 - 08:51 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

You genuinely don't see anything wrong with her behavior do you?

Her behavior? No, only her actions. But it is a dark world and there are a whole bunch of outlaws that are under Shepard and that are no better than her. If you can take them with you because of their skill to help stop the reapers, than I see no reason why she isn't welcome. On the scale, I'd say that Samara creeps me a lot more.

You gonna do count now? I wonder how many people Wrex killed as a krogan merc in his years.

Quite a few no doubt. Chances are the majority of them were shooting back and not expecting a nice evening of sex and fun...unlike Morinth's victims.
But that's not who we are discussing.

I don't have a problem with you liking Morinth I really don't.

I take issue with you trying to defame her victims and make her seem blameless.

She's done horrible things to people over her centuries of running and it's irrelavant to you because of the system she had to deal with and that's wrong.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 23 octobre 2011 - 08:54 .

[D.Kain]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Quite a few no doubt.
But that's not who we are discussing.

I don't have a problem with you liking Morinth I really don't.

I take issue with you trying to defame her victims and make her seem blameless.

She's done horrible things to people over her centuries of running and it's irrelavant to you because of the system she had to deal with and that's wrong.

Yes I'm arguing with you from a non game perspective too, because we are discussing the character.

Here's my game perspective:

I have a renegade, ruthless Shepard that has a whole bunch of outlaws on the ship, and he doesn't care as long as the reapers get stopped. All of his squadmates crimes are problems below his paygrade. He even get's friendly with them because they are doing something a lot more important together. Morinth is a badass squadmate that seems more useful than Samara.

My non game perspective:

Morinth as a character is murderer, but is such because of the condition that she was put into. It doesn't justify her murders but it also doesn't mean that she has to face punishment just yet. She can redeam herself by saving billions by helping to stop the reapers. After that the galaxy should solve the AY problem so that she wouldn't kill anymore, if she returns to her old life for no good reason, she will be punished. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Neither of us are going to convince the other of anything.

So I'll leave before I say something unneeded and mean.

Good day/night/whatever.

[D.Kain]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Neither of us are going to convince the other of anything.

So I'll leave before I say something unneeded and mean.

Good day/night/whatever.

What do YOU think she deserves? If game provided you with ANY option to deal with this problem.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Neither of us are going to convince the other of anything.

So I'll leave before I say something unneeded and mean.

Good day/night/whatever.

What do YOU think she deserves? If game provided you with ANY option to deal with this problem.

Fine.

Execution for her multiple murders.

Followed by an intensive program to educate the galaxy of the AY condition and an effort to affect some kind of cure.

Punish her for her crimes and then try to make sure no one else is ever in her position.

[D.Kain]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
Fine.

Execution for her multiple murders.

Followed by an intensive program to educate the galaxy of the AY condition and an effort to affect some kind of cure.

Punish her for her crimes and then try to make sure no one else is ever in her position.

Ok, just a little more: 

Do you agree that for there to not be the same position AY have to be educated to live among the other asari, and only choose seclusion by their own free will? And that if everybody knew about AY existance it would be easier to controll and capture them? And that asari were wrong to keep that secret from the galaxy and should have made a cooperative attempt to maybe cure the AY using the help of say salarians that even made the genophage?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
Fine.

Execution for her multiple murders.

Followed by an intensive program to educate the galaxy of the AY condition and an effort to affect some kind of cure.

Punish her for her crimes and then try to make sure no one else is ever in her position.

Ok, just a little more: 

Do you agree that for there to not be the same position AY have to be educated to live among the other asari, and only choose seclusion by their own free will? And that if everybody knew about AY existance it would be easier to controll and capture them? And that asari were wrong to keep that secret from the galaxy and should have made a cooperative attempt to maybe cure the AY using the help of say salarians that even made the genophage?

I would support making their seclusion...less of a seclusion and more of a house arrest.

Would I support limited contact with others yes.

But anything more than that is just too much of a risk until there's some kind of cure.

[D.Kain]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I would support making their seclusion...less of a seclusion and more of a house arrest.

Would I support limited contact with others yes.

But anything more than that is just too much of a risk until there's some kind of cure.

But the rest of the stuff? Should the galactic community know? Should the salarians help with the cure? Should asari change anything?

Modifié par D.Kain, 23 octobre 2011 - 09:33 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I would support making their seclusion...less of a seclusion and more of a house arrest.

Would I support limited contact with others yes.

But anything more than that is just too much of a risk until there's some kind of cure.

But the rest of the stuff? Should the galactic community know? Should the salarians help with the cure? Should asari change anything?

The Salarians should help yes.
The galactic community should be introduced slowly and carefully to avoid backlash.

But as of the Asari themselves maybe allow very limited and supervised contact with others. But anything more than that is playing with fire.

[D.Kain]

So do you think asari planed on revealing the AY to the galactic community?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

D.Kain wrote...

So do you think asari planed on revealing the AY to the galactic community?

No.
Because as far as they are concerned the problem is effectively contained.

[D.Kain]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

So do you think asari planed on revealing the AY to the galactic community?

No.
Because as far as they are concerned the problem is effectively contained.

And that's the problem. 

I think Morinth actions also attracted Shepard and got an important, non-asari galactic figure to know about AY. It mean that her actions were a stepping stone for the better of all AY, because now salarians can help with the cure for example. It is unesecery for people to know about Morinth's actions, that is a dark secret that died with Samara, but now Shepard can bring into the light the whole AY thing. If Morinth would sit somewhere in a dark corner that wouldn't happen. What do you think about this?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

So do you think asari planed on revealing the AY to the galactic community?

No.
Because as far as they are concerned the problem is effectively contained.

And that's the problem. 

I think Morinth actions also attracted Shepard and got an important, non-asari galactic figure to know about AY. It mean that her actions were a stepping stone for the better of all AY, because now salarians can help with the cure for example. It is unesecery for people to know about Morinth's actions, that is a dark secret that died with Samara, but now Shepard can bring into the light the whole AY thing. If Morinth would sit somewhere in a dark corner that wouldn't happen. What do you think about this?

She "got attention" in the worst way possible.

She should have used the Extranet, the various news groups, maybe befriend a naive spectre or two...

Anything but what she did.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 23 octobre 2011 - 10:05 .

[D.Kain]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

She "got attention" in the worst way possible.

She should have used the Extranet, the various news groups, maybe befriend a naive spectre or two...

Anything but what she did.

So what would you do in Morinth's shoes? You wouldn't mindrape anyone, I think I got that right. But you also have to imagine that you love freedom so much that you would rather die than stay in seclusion. 

So you are 16 years old ( 40+ asari years ), and you ran away. You are being hunted by the justicars, that will surely kill you, authorities are not going to help you, but will only turn you to the justicars, you are alone. What is your plan of survival, and how would you try to make things better for those that are still there in seclusion? How would you get attention?

Modifié par D.Kain, 23 octobre 2011 - 10:13 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

She "got attention" in the worst way possible.

She should have used the Extranet, the various news groups, maybe befriend a naive spectre or two...

Anything but what she did.

So what would you do in Morinth's shoes? You wouldn't mindrape anyone, I think I got that right. But you also have to imagine that you love freedom so much that you would rather die than stay in seclusion. 

So you are 16 years old ( 40+ asari years ), and you ran away. You are being hunted by the justicars, that will surely kill you, authorities are not going to help you, but will only turn you to the justicars, you are alone. What is your plan of survival, and how would you try to make things better for those that are still there in seclusion? How would you get attention?

Get out of the "Country" as fast as possible.
Spend a few years (at least a half-century for them) mostly alone to make sure I can control myself slowly start travelling in more populated areas.

Spend the next century and a half working hard and building up some kind of financial base.

Use that to spread my message and my plight through third party channels.

Be a "model citizen" thereby proving that just because they think I'll be a monster doesn't mean that I will be.

Eventually befriend Shepard and help save the galaxy and be remembered as a shining example of what someone can do in extreme circumstances.

I would never mindrape to get ahead.

[D.Kain]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Get out of the "Country" as fast as possible.
Spend a few years (at least a half-century for them) mostly alone to make sure I can control myself slowly start travelling in more populated areas.

Spend the next century and a half working hard and building up some kind of financial base.

Use that to spread my message and my plight through third party channels.

Be a "model citizen" thereby proving that just because they think I'll be a monster doesn't mean that I will be.

Eventually befriend Shepard and help save the galaxy and be remembered as a shining example of what someone can do in extreme circumstances.

I would never mindrape to get ahead.

As a disproportionately wealthy species, asari employ their economic reach and media ownership to hide the AY pathology from the galactic community, placing most Ardat-Yakshi in monitored work programs or seclusion. Only the most aggressive cases are sentenced to sanitaria and prisons or to the execution lists of justicars.

So you would try to be enough of a succesful business man to counter the asari economy, to make everybody believe that you are not talking fairy tales. And you think that with things like that you wouldn't get attention from the asari, being an asari yourself, and that Justicars wouldn't just show up at your door and kill you, because they would take you for a murderer for just running. 

And you also would have none of your dominate abileties because you haven't mated and became strong enough to use those.

And how would you befriend Shepard mind I ask?

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

Stop kidding yourself. The basic goal of all life is a continued existence, whether intelligent or unintelligent. We live to reproduce. Morinth's "Genetic Destiny" line is BS.

Ok, you can say whatever you like about Morinth as a fictional character. Just don't tell me what to live for. Reproduction is the last purpose of life on my list.