878 réponses à ce sujet

[D.Kain]

I actually can't believe that Asari think that Justicars are ok. I mean how do they know if one is really a Justicar? They are not official and they are outlaws that can do whatever they please without getting into trouble. What is stopping a random ( should probably be a powerful one ) Asari from saying that she is a justicar, and kill people that tick her of in the name of justice?

[Xeranx]

I think it's the kind of thing that Asari wouldn't joke about. That and/or the Justicar know their own.

[D.Kain]

Xeranx wrote...

I think it's the kind of thing that Asari wouldn't joke about. That and/or the Justicar know their own.

So do they have some kind of meating or something? Didn't Samara persue her own goal? Or did the whole order approve of what she was doing?

[Xeranx]

I think they're allowed to choose their assignments or maybe their appointments are doled out to them. *shrug*

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Raganheart wrote...

We don´t claim her innocence. Actually, we are defending her life. Born to be damned is not so good in anyone´s eyes. Who is any to tell you how to live your life because you have a disease, unless it´s medically good advice. It is insane to trap an individual in seclusion. Futhermore, I think it´s against the rights of the species. Just because something is different doesn´t mean you should highlight and outcast it, let alone control the species life and not try to help it medically. Obviously, there is no proof of medical research, but at least something would have come up. They say the condition is rare, but most asari don´t even know that it actually exist. They think it is a myth that they are actually told in childhood. That would only prove that it´s kept under wraps and no one is solving this matter. 

A quarantine in effect, though cruel to the individual imposed upon, is necessary for the sake of the rest of society. To prevent a multitude of preventable deaths, the person with the disease must be contained until deemed safe enough to mingle with society. People who are diagnosed with HIV are told by doctors how to live their life without endangering others by accidental infection. Ardat-Yakshi are not forgotten creatures left to be out of sight, out of mind. The Codex itself mentions various treatments and methods for minor cases, teaching empathy to those lacking the emotion. It is the extreme cases that must be dealt with as a serial killer would be in our society.
Morinth had freedom. Stolen freedom at that. During the few months she was hidden, she wasted every opportunity to prove the Asari's worst fears wrong and continued to kill. If you want more sympathy for Ardat-Yakshi being damned to seclusion, it would help to defend Samara's other daughters who did go and suffer isolation from family.

Samara has admitted in her younger years that she has done unlawful things in her past that she would rather forget. I´m guessing killing an innocent is one of them. She has matured now and is also under the justicar code which is a perfect example of good. Samara tries to right her wrongs, but her viscous and mysterious past has come back to haunt her. I guess Samara was lucky not to be killed by another Justicar when she was a mercenary. That kind of sparing she should implement on her daughter. 

Most of us defend Morinth because Samara has to take a good look in the mirror first

Samara admitted doing questionable practices but NEVER ANYTHING PATENTLY UNJUST. To say she killed innocents is an unfounded guess. The Justicar Code is NOT a perfect example of good, it is simply a code detailed enought to be effective in Asari society. Samara became a Justicar to stop Morinth.
For all that you accuse Samara of, it still does not absolve Morinth. Morinth is old enough to be held responsible for her decisions.
And every decision she has made is damning.
Stop defending Morinth because of Samara. Samara already has done her part taking responsibility for all the deaths inflicted by her daughter. Morinth needs to be held accountable for the death on her hands. She has contributed nothing useful to asari society and knows what she's doing is wrong by the methods she takes to be discreet.

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Xilizhra wrote...

It is so weird to see people comparing Morinth as an innocent even after she lies to Nef about who she is, kills her and displays absolutely no remorse whatsoever. Samara always had more honesty and decency than her sociopathic daughter. Though there are complaints that she is underdeveloped, it changes nothing that Morinth killed innocents intentionally and without regret. I see no reason to treat her fairly after what she brainwashed and ruined so many other families' lives. Regardless of how her childhood began, she lost all sympathy when she inflicted pain upon others for her own pleasure.

I personally never see any reason to treat anyone unfairly. My policy is "kill only in self-defense or defense of another," and who's doing what in the confrontation between Morinth and Samara is extremely blurred. I'd save them both if I could, even if it'd mean Samara hunted me. Unfortunately, I can't.

Also, Morinth did say that Nef experienced tremendous pleasure...

They say the condition is rare, but most asari don´t even know that it actually exist. They think it is a myth that they are actually told in childhood. That would only prove that it´s kept under wraps and no one is solving this matter.

Regrettably true.

Most of us defend Morinth because Samara has to take a good look in the mirror first

I don't think Samara is being hypocritical, as such, but I think the whole situation is badly unfortunate.

Actually, you can spare them both Xilizhra. Do Samara's mission, then deliberately sabotage it in your conversation with Morinth. Think of it as like "warning" her off. Go to Samara, tell her the truth that Morinth escaped and you'll have given her a sporting chance at life again. Even if she's unloyal, you'll still be able to keep Samara alive during the suicide mission.

For Morinth to claim what Nef experienced before she died has been proven to be a lie when Shepard goes through the same procedure. It was a horribly painful death.

Again, I reiterate, Ardat-Yakshi of certain degrees are rehabilitated to learn empathy. It is the extreme cases like Morinth where death is necessary to defend the innocents they would murder for a fix.
I ask you Xilizhra, would you kill Morinth to prevent another death like Nef's? It is proven that Morinth DID kill an innocent girl, regardless of how she died and in what manner.

[D.Kain]

@PrimalEden

Some of us are saying that Samara is not good to not justify Morinth but to explain that there is no black&white here. We are dealing with murderers, but it's ok. There are plenty of murderers on the ship and we are dealing with them because they are badass professionals that can help stop the reapers. I don't have the time to think about what Morinth has done in her past, because Reapers are attacking. All I know is that I get along with Morinth better than with Samara, Morinth has more useful skills ( lore wise ) and is potentially a better biotic. Morinth can kill a few thousand little girls, she is helping to save the freaking galaxy!

[Xilizhra]

Actually, you can spare them both Xilizhra. Do Samara's mission, then deliberately sabotage it in your conversation with Morinth. Think of it as like "warning" her off. Go to Samara, tell her the truth that Morinth escaped and you'll have given her a sporting chance at life again. Even if she's unloyal, you'll still be able to keep Samara alive during the suicide mission.

Too risky. If Morinth is going to stay alive, I want her under my watch and control. At least she's willing to stay there, so it'd be less imprisonment.

For Morinth to claim what Nef experienced before she died has been proven to be a lie when Shepard goes through the same procedure. It was a horribly painful death.

Really? I thought it just segues into Critical Mission Failure. How can we tell the pain?

Again, I reiterate, Ardat-Yakshi of certain degrees are rehabilitated to learn empathy. It is the extreme cases like Morinth where death is necessary to defend the innocents they would murder for a fix.

This isn't good enough. There must be a way to fix even this.

I ask you Xilizhra, would you kill Morinth to prevent another death like Nef's? It is proven that Morinth DID kill an innocent girl, regardless of how she died and in what manner.

I would kill her if I had to to stop her from doing that, if she was going to.

[D.Kain]

Xilizhra wrote...

For Morinth to claim what Nef experienced before she died has been proven to be a lie when Shepard goes through the same procedure. It was a horribly painful death.

Really? I thought it just segues into Critical Mission Failure. How can we tell the pain?

I actually have a thought on that. Morinth's victims indeed feel VERY good. And since Morinth is conected to the victim she feels a part of that euphoria and that's why she want's to mate. 

[D.Kain]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

I actually can't believe that Asari think that Justicars are ok. I mean how do they know if one is really a Justicar? They are not official and they are outlaws that can do whatever they please without getting into trouble. What is stopping a random ( should probably be a powerful one ) Asari from saying that she is a justicar, and kill people that tick her of in the name of justice?

I'm pretty sure the Justicars have very strict organization and hierarchy, like military-monastic orders in Human history, e.g. the Knights Templar or the Teutonic Order. The initiation process of new Justicars is also obviously a very strict and demanding ritual itself, almost certainly presided over by senior Justicars who serve as witnesses/officials.

Perhaps in ME3 we'll get to know more about the Justicars, such as Samara's exact role/placement in the Justicar Order.

Actually I'd say Justicars resemble the Templars or the Teutonic Knights more than the Knight-errants or Samurai, as Samara said. They're not the warrior caste of a feudal system, but an independent, military-religious order. Samara may know less about Human history than she thinks.

But is there some obvious sign so people know that that person is a justicar?

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D.Kain wrote...

@PrimalEden

Some of us are saying that Samara is not good to not justify Morinth but to explain that there is no black&white here. We are dealing with murderers, but it's ok. There are plenty of murderers on the ship and we are dealing with them because they are badass professionals that can help stop the reapers. I don't have the time to think about what Morinth has done in her past, because Reapers are attacking.
 

Morinth's story is already lopsidedly dark. The people Shepard hires have indeed all killed, but it's difficult to defend her because the person Morinth killed did nothing in the player's eyes that suggest she deserved it. Some people would prefer to think about the kind of person they have on their team in order to keep everyone else's trust and willingness to work together.


All I know is that I get along with Morinth better than with Samara, Morinth has more useful skills ( lore wise ) and is potentially a better biotic.


If you want to save Morinth because you prefer her over Samara, I cannot argue with a personal opinion.


Morinth can kill a few thousand little girls, she is helping to save the freaking galaxy!

 
 
If you save her because you think she will contribute more to society, I must protest that.

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Stupid double-post!

Modifié par PrimalEden, 26 septembre 2011 - 06:36 .

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Xilizhra wrote...

Too risky. If Morinth is going to stay alive, I want her under my watch and control. At least she's willing to stay there, so it'd be less imprisonment.
Is it less imprisonment for Samara's other daughters if they were willing to stay in that facility? If you want Morinth under watch then she may as well have been put into seclusion to begin with. She won't stay forever with Shepard, she will eventually want to leave. What then?

Really? I thought it just segues into Critical Mission Failure. How can we tell the pain?
Expression.

This isn't good enough. There must be a way to fix even this.
Not all things can be fixed as easily. How many asari parents made that same wish for their children who are locked away? It is still an attempt towards a cure, no matter how futile it looks. For now, Shepard cannot solve that problem, there are too many other things to worry about

I would kill her if I had to to stop her from doing that, if she was going to.

You mean you would have to witness that to take action. But Morinth has been killing people all her years on the run. She is not going to stop.

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D.Kain wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

For Morinth to claim what Nef experienced before she died has been proven to be a lie when Shepard goes through the same procedure. It was a horribly painful death.

Really? I thought it just segues into Critical Mission Failure. How can we tell the pain?

I actually have a thought on that. Morinth's victims indeed feel VERY good. And since Morinth is conected to the victim she feels a part of that euphoria and that's why she want's to mate. 

While it leaves the family members in pain for the rest of their lives.

[D.Kain]

PrimalEden wrote...
  
If you save her because you think she will contribute more to society, I must protest that.

Why? 

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D.Kain wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...
  
If you save her because you think she will contribute more to society, I must protest that.

Why? 

Because if people didn't make it a habit to question what is good for society, a lot of suffering would be inflicted unintentionally.

[D.Kain]

PrimalEden wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...
  
If you save her because you think she will contribute more to society, I must protest that.

Why? 

Because if people didn't make it a habit to question what is good for society, a lot of suffering would be inflicted unintentionally.

Well yes, if Asari thought about being nice to Ardat-Yakshi, Morinth could have been different.

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D.Kain wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...
  
If you save her because you think she will contribute more to society, I must protest that.

Why? 

Because if people didn't make it a habit to question what is good for society, a lot of suffering would be inflicted unintentionally.

Well yes, if Asari thought about being nice to Ardat-Yakshi, Morinth could have been different.

It is not really explained how Ardat-Yakshi are really treated. Morinth was not abused, she was born with a condition that made her sociopathic. The Codex explains that some Ardat-Yakshi are born without empathy due to their inability to meld successfully with another sentient. Morinth had killed before she went on the run. Samara's reference that she wasn't taking a moral stand but was simply wanting to continue it tells that Morinth was like that before Samara became a Justicar.

[Raganheart]

Alll good and valid points, but really why defend Samara´s actiions when this is a pro Morinth thread. The fact that people don´t take that to general discussion with a link to that forum is above my head. Every character has a pro thread and 95 percent are pro. There is just too much negativity towards this character and not enough praise for a push to see more of her. If you don´t like Morinth as a character make another forum for discussion.

[Xilizhra]

It is not really explained how Ardat-Yakshi are really treated. Morinth was not abused, she was born with a condition that made her sociopathic. The Codex explains that some Ardat-Yakshi are born without empathy due to their inability to meld successfully with another sentient. Morinth had killed before she went on the run. Samara's reference that she wasn't taking a moral stand but was simply wanting to continue it tells that Morinth was like that before Samara became a Justicar.

Her sisters have a similar condition, but show no signs of sociopathic behavior. And I believe Morinth had only killed one person before going on the run, probably accidentally. As for Morinth being abused... well, she does mention Samara being "as powerful as she was hateful" and later said that she'd been raised with no love. Is she right? That seems unlikely, strictly speaking, but I believe that she believes it.

[Asenza]

Raganheart wrote...

Alll good and valid points, but really why defend Samara´s actiions when this is a pro Morinth thread. The fact that people don´t take that to general discussion with a link to that forum is above my head. Every character has a pro thread and 95 percent are pro. There is just too much negativity towards this character and not enough praise for a push to see more of her. If you don´t like Morinth as a character make another forum for discussion.

People talk about Samara on this thread because there is the unavoidable tendency to compare the two, due to the one or the other choice involved during the game. If this is a pro-Morinth thread, there have to be reasons why Samara paled in comparison to Morinth, and Samara's effect on Morinth as a character.

Morinth doesn't care that she's helping save the world. She's repaying a personal debt, gratitude to Shepard for killing Samara. Nothing during her few breaks in character during the missions indicate that she is going through some sort of personality change, or gaining empathy, and there is absolutely nothing to indicate that she wants to change. I wish there was, because that would have added depth and would have been far more interesting to see a selfish, solitary person realize the galaxy is at stake and that some things are worth fighting for even at the cost of one's life, but alas, another missed oportunity. 

She may have been only forty when she ran,  but she's four-hundred now, no longer a child. There is no proof that her first kill was an accident, and after a few hundred years, that excuse no longer holds water. She is a sociopath. She kills other people to make herself stronger, to make herself feel good. There is nothing noble or tormented about that, because she feels no guilt or regret. She doesn't care.

A life of comfort and seclusion, while probably lonely, is a necessity for the greater good. When Ardat-Yakshi pose such a threat to the general population, individual sacrifices must be made. Rila and Falere accepted that. Morinth didn't. Childish, perhaps, given her age, and selfish, but again, four-hundred years later, the excuse can't carry her anymore.

Morinth is not a tragic character worthy of sympathy because she "suffers" from a medical, genetic condition that causes sociopathy. She hasn't really been suffering all those four-hundred years (been living it up, really, unlike Samara), but the scores of victims, and their families and their friends....

Modifié par Asenza, 26 septembre 2011 - 02:11 .

[Xilizhra]

She may have been only forty when she ran, but she's four-hundred now, no longer a child. There is no proof that her first kill was an accident

There's no proof that it wasn't, either.

She is a sociopath. She kills other people to make herself stronger, to make herself feel good. There is nothing noble or tormented about that, because she feels no guilt or regret. She doesn't care.

Given how little she speaks, we don't know that.

A life of comfort and seclusion, while probably lonely, is a necessity for the greater good.

Only a cure is a necessity.

She hasn't really been suffering all those four-hundred years (been living it up, really, unlike Samara), but the scores of victims, and their families and their friends....

Despite being constantly chased? I'd say she would suffer from that.

[Xeranx]

I'm not a psychologist and I haven't taken a psychology class, but isn't empathy a learned trait? If so, doesn't that mean that being born without empathy really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things since it takes time to develop? Kids in general are probably the most selfish people around before they're taught to share. I know I didn't want to share the stuff I had when I was a kid. But I had to be taught to share which is kind of funny when you look at the situation now and everyone being solely about themselves, but that one is off-topic.

Obviously the reason I'm asking is that if empathy is something that's learned, if we can actually establish that, then the Morinth's behavior and words on her mother showing know love have meaning. It actually paints a different picture of the whole thing and solidifies my belief that Morinth didn't know what she was until she actually tried to mate with someone else.

Samara had two daughters before Morinth. Those two had the benefit of being virtual anomalies. The first one would always be doted on. The second one might get the same treatment as the first. Morinth being third, unfortunately, could be looking at a mother depressed (at finding out all her children came out as Ardat Yakshi) without knowing why her mother is depressed. Just looking up postpartum depression and that looks like what happened.

[Asenza]

@ Xilizhra,

1) Oh come on. I'm trying to be fair here, but you're reaching. The problem with whether or not Morinth's first kill was an accident or not is that you're assuming it was, for "lack" of evidence, and using that assumption to generate sympathy, "Oh, her first kill was an accident". Problem with that is, that she had already been diagnosed, meaning she knew the effect she had on people. Meaning she knew right from wrong. Her sisters did. Morinth did it anyway.

2) We do know that Morinth doesn't care about her victims. She does speak, at length about them, in her apartment. She is not wistful, or remorseful, or even sad. It was all about how she enjoyed killing. There weren't any pictures of her victims, or sentimental mementos, nothing except death trophies.

3) A cure that isn't immediately forthcoming. While a cure does not yet exist, the immediate need to quarantine those who pose a great risk to the public, does. So you think Ardat-Yakshi SHOULDN'T be locked up for the greater good? Ardat-Yakshi, who have no empathy for other living beings, people who are addicted to the feeling and are probably unable to help themselves, you think these people should be allowed to do and travel as they please?

4) She's been chased by Samara, sure. But that's not suffering. Knowing your daughter is out there killing people for the high and try as you might, you can't stop her, that's suffering. Watching your daughter warp whole villages and send them to die to make her escape, that's suffering. Knowing your daughter's condition is a direct result of your choice in mate, that's suffering. Knowing that all of your daughter's victims, and their families, and their friends pain and anguish is not so indirectly your fault? That's suffering. Morinth being chased down over the centuries by her mother, is not suffering.

The only emotion she expresses towards her mother, before and after, is anger. Not sadness that it had come to this, regret that things could have been different, just anger. Anger because Samara was trying to stop her from killing other people. Morinth had managed to elude her mother for all those years. Samara mentioned that she's gone to ground for fifty years, or more. When Samara was unable to find her, what do you think Morinth was up to?

Modifié par Asenza, 26 septembre 2011 - 02:59 .