878 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

1) Oh come on. I'm trying to be fair here, but you're reaching. The problem with whether or not Morinth's first kill was an accident or not is that you're assuming it was, for "lack" of evidence, and using that assumption to generate sympathy, "Oh, her first kill was an accident" Problem with that is, that she had already been diagnosed, meaning she knew the effect she had on people.

Actually, the burden of proof is on you to prove her guilt. And I don't believe she'd been previously diagnosed either.

2) We do know that Morinth doesn't care about her victims. She does speak, at length about them, in her apartment. She is not wistful, or remorseful, or even sad. It was all about how she enjoyed killing. There weren't any pictures of her victims, or sentimental mementos, nothing except death trophies.

I think she seemed a bit moreso regarding Nef.

3) A cure that isn't immediately forthcoming. While a cure does not yet exist, the immediate need to quarantine those who pose a great risk to the public, does. So you think Ardat-Yakshi SHOULDN'T be locked up for the greater good. Ardat-Yakshi, who have no empathy for other living beings, people who are addicted to the feeling and might not be able to help themselves, you think these people should be allowed to do and travel as they please?

First of all, they're far from guaranteed to lack empathy. Secondly... watch them, if necessary. Certainly, any Ardat-Yakshi could easily sex someone to death. Any non-one could easily pick up a knife and stab someone. The principle is at least similar to DA's mage imprisonment. But just imprisoning them serves no one; hell, if they must be imprisoned, allow them to help in trying to find a cure.

But Morinth has managed to elude her mother for all those years. Samara mentioned that she's gone to ground for fifty years, or more. When Samara was unable to find her, what do you think Morinth was up to?

I imagine alternately trying to plan for the next assault from Samara and trying to put its inevitability out of her mind.

Watching your daughter warp whole villages and send them to die to make her escape, that's suffering. Knowing your daughter's condition is a direct result of your choice in mate, that's suffering.

I find this, and other stories about Morinth that Morinth herself never corroborates, highly dodgy. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Samara bent the truth on some of them.

[Asenza]

@ Xilizhra,

1) "When an Ardat-Yakshi is diagnosed.... Two chose seclusion. The third ran." I don't remember the exact wording, but Samara states this, when telling Shepard about Morinth... just before the loyalty mission, I believe. Morinth's guilt in the first murder can be surmised given what she goes on to do after the fact. If someone is a sociopath and all the pets in the neighborhood dissapear, and years later the sociopath has evolved into a full-fledged mass-murder, it's not supposition to connect the dots.

2) Show me, a quote, a picture, a line of dialogue where Morinth expressed remorse, regret or any real emotion at all, about Nef. Then show me how it's genuine.

3) True enough, not all Ardat-Yakshi are afflicted to the same degree as Morinth. But when someone like Morinth comes around... they are too much of a risk to let free, and there aren't so many of them that containment isn't possible. Stop bringing a non-existent cure into this, it does not exist yet for whatever reason, and so the asari can only do what they can in the present with the Ardat-Yakshi, and the only real solution is isolation.

4) Oh, Morinth was inconvenienced, I'll bet. She probably even had a few of her dates or her targets disrupted by Samara over the years. But still, that's not suffering, and the only way she'd been able to gain nearly as much power as her mother, during a shorter period of life meant that Morinth was sucking the life out of tons of other beings in the interim to close the gap. That was how she got stronger, faster, smarter. She wasn't rocking, holding herself, in the corner of a dark room, wondering in terror when her mother would come for her for over four hundred years. Even in Omega, she wasn't furtive and scraping to get by, desperate to keep under the radar to avoid her mother. Did you see the apartment she was living in? She's been enjoying herself at bars and enjoying herself with whoever she brought home with her.

5) The burden of proof is on you, now. Has Samara lied about anything else? Has she bent the truth on anything else? Has she ever denied her culpability in Morinth's condition or Morinth's actions? If she wanted to avoid accepting the blame for Morinth's condition, maybe she would lie. But Samara already has accepted the guilt, the blame, the remorse. She has no reason to lie, there is nothing to cover up.

From what we've seen of Morinth's apartment, however, and from what words we have heard come from her mouth, it isn't difficult to believe that of her. The conversation in the VIP room and the conversation and set pieces of Morinth's apartment is called set-up and indirect characterization. If Morinth talked about the time she killed that cute artist, or the time she enslaved an entire village, that'll kinda scare off her prey. There is no chance for her to corroborate that information, yes, but since we see her character and have no reason to disbelieve Samara, you have to accept it as fact.

Calling Samara a liar, or her information dodgy, just because Morinth didn't admit to it is you avoiding the facts. Morinth didn't admit to killing Nef, are you going to say that because Morinth didn't explicitly state that she did it, that she had nothing to do with it? Despite Nef's diary, Morinth's note in Nef's room, Nef's mother, Diana's information, Aria's information....

Modifié par Asenza, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:42 .

[Xilizhra]

1) "When an Ardat-Yakshi is diagnosed.... Two chose seclusion. The third ran." I don't remember the exact wording, but Samara states this, when telling Shepard about Morinth... just before the loyalty mission, I believe. Morinth's guilt in the first murder can be surmised given what she goes on to do after the fact. If someone is a sociopath and all the pets in the neighborhood dissapear, and years later the sociopath has evolved into a full-fledged mass-murder, it's not supposition to connect the dots.

I believe the diagnosis was of a... visceral nature (it being made upon the corpse of her erstwhile lover).

2) Show me, a quote, a picture, a line of dialogue where Morinth expressed remorse, regret or any real emotion at all, about Nef. Then show me how it's genuine.

Opinions will doom that. Though I'll look when I get there in my current playthrough.

3) True enough, not all Ardat-Yakshi are afflicted to the same degree as Morinth. But when someone like Morinth comes around... they are too much of a risk to let free, and there aren't so many of them that containment isn't possible. Stop bringing a non-existent cure into this, it does not exist yet for whatever reason, and so the asari can only do what they can in the present with the Ardat-Yakshi, and the only real solution is isolation.

I'll continue to bring it up until I see evidence of it being worked for.

There is no chance for her to corroborate that information, yes

There is. On the ship.

Morinth didn't admit to killing Nef, are you going to say that because Morinth didn't explicitly state that she did it, that she had nothing to do with it?

Actually, she does eventually admit it.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:41 .

[Asenza]

1) Believe it all you like, there's no evidence for it to prove that it was some sort of traumatic discovery. That's you again, trying to inject some sympathy for Morinth into her past. Depending on the age of Rila and Falere, on the birth order, there was probably some concern that Morinth would be the same, but even if not, they were all diagnosed. Then Morinth ran. Murder ensued.

3) But this isn't about a cure. You say you want to see a cure being worked on. I say yes, a cure would be nice, for Ardat-Yakshi like Rila and Falere, but in the meantime, isolation is a necessity. You dodge the issue and say that a cure must be worked on, that isolation serves no purpose... even though it does. Ardat-Yakshi= danger to the public. Keep them away from the public = isolation. Isolation+Ardat-Yakshi= safe public. The cure is a separate issue entirely.

4) Good point, I hadn't thought about after having recruited Morinth, that, at least with Shepard, she would be a bit more free to talk after killing Samara. But even though Shepard doesn't get to ask, and Morinth doesn't volunteer that information, the fact remains that Samara had no reason to lie, and from what is shown of Morinth's character, what Samara told Shepard is believable. It this where Morinth admits to killing Nef, also? I really wouldn't know.

Modifié par Asenza, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:56 .

[D.Kain]

@Asenza

Ok how about this:

Thoughts going through Morinth's head:

1) Oh **** I killed a person, I am an Ardat-Yakshi, now they are going to lock me up.
2) Screw this I will be free and live a full life even if it cost me my life.
3) Mother **** is going to kill me now, can't let her own daughter live in peace. Well screw her too! I will become stronger! I will survive!
4) Ok Morinth relax, your mother is not here right now might as well have a little fun and forget about all this crap for a moment.
5) Some people seem suspicious and look like they are after me.
6) How do you like killing Innocent people for your stupid code mother? You brought all of this on yourself, it could have been different!
7) I'm becoming stronger, soon I will be able to match my mother.

And then Shepard meets Morinth.

Just some more or less chronological thoughts that could go through Morinth's head.

[Xilizhra]

3) But this isn't about a cure. You say you want to see a cure being worked on. I say yes, a cure would be nice, for Ardat-Yakshi like Rila and Falere, but in the meantime, isolation is a necessity. You dodge the issue and say that a cure must be worked on, that isolation serves no purpose... even though it does. Ardat-Yakshi= danger to the public. Keep them away from the public = isolation. Isolation+Ardat-Yakshi= safe public. The cure is a separate issue entirely.

I believe it would work for Morinth as well.
And isolation serves a purpose, but a poor and misguided one.

4) Good point, I hadn't thought about after having recruited Morinth, that, at least with Shepard, she would be a bit more free to talk after killing Samara. But even though Shepard doesn't get to ask, and Morinth doesn't volunteer that information, the fact remains that Samara had no reason to lie, and from what is shown of Morinth's character, what Samara told Shepard is believable. It this where Morinth admits to killing Nef, also? I really wouldn't know.

Yes, she does admit it then. It seems Morinth's lack of dialogue prevents either of us from fully sussing out her character, yes?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:56 .

[Asenza]

D.Kain wrote...

@Asenza

Ok how about this:

Thoughts going through Morinth's head:

1) Oh **** I killed a person, I am an Ardat-Yakshi, now they are going to lock me up.
2) Screw this I will be free and live a full life even if it cost me my life.
3) Mother **** is going to kill me now, can't let her own daughter live in peace. Well screw her too! I will become stronger! I will survive!
4) Ok Morinth relax, your mother is not here right now might as well have a little fun and forget about all this crap for a moment.
5) Some people seem suspicious and look like they are after me.
6) How do you like killing Innocent people for your stupid code mother? You brought all of this on yourself, it could have been different!
7) I'm becoming stronger, soon I will be able to match my mother.

And then Shepard meets Morinth.

Just some more or less chronological thoughts that could go through Morinth's head.

1) They were going to lock her up anyway.
2) True, except it would really be, "I will be free to murder and live a full life at the expense of many other people's lives. 
3) I will become stronger! I will survive! She can't let her own daughter live as a mass-murderer in peace!
4) More murder. More life-sucking. More mayhem.


I really don't know how to answer 5, 6 and 7. In all honesty, we already know what was going through Morinth's head. Killing, seduction, killing, more drugs, hunting, killing, art, music, more killing. She's very simple.

[Raganheart]

lol the specualations are incredible, but only time will tell and the secrets will be revealed soon.

[Asenza]

Raganheart wrote...

lol the specualations are incredible, but only time will tell and the secrets will be revealed soon.

Oh, come on, I was expecting something more from you, you're the one who started this thread.

@ Xilizhra

Isolation is not poor and misguided, it is effective and the only option available. It didn't work for Morinth because she ran away. Because she wanted to kill. Because she couldn't do that in isolation.

On the latter point, you're avoiding the issue. Again. We don't need Morinth to tell us every crime she's ever committed. We know she's done some. We've seen her apartment. We've heard her talk. She was exceedingly open about it. Samara filled in some blank spaces. We have no reason to believe she lied. There is nothing else to Morinth that we haven't seen already.  She's either a shallow character, which makes her a bit of a writing fail for Bioware, because shallow is easy, compared to complexity and depth or she is just is a simple mass murderer who kills for her high, exactly what it says on the box.

Modifié par Asenza, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:17 .

[Raganheart]

The first couple of pages I had ammunition, but now I will let the thread carry itself if it can survive. I want more fan art on here of either Morinth or Samara. I haven´t seen much praise or photos on here.

[D.Kain]

Asenza wrote...

1) They were going to lock her up anyway.
2) True, except it would really be, "I will be free to murder and live a full life at the expense of many other people's lives. 
3) I will become stronger! I will survive! She can't let her own daughter live as a mass-murderer in peace!
4) More murder. More life-sucking. More mayhem.


I really don't know how to answer 5, 6 and 7. In all honesty, we already know what was going through Morinth's head. Killing, seduction, killing, more drugs, hunting, killing, art, music, more killing. She's very simple.

2) No, wrong. I think she started killing people BECAUSE of seclusion and her mother. 
She wouldn't be a mass murderer in peace.
She is not simple at all. 

[Asenza]

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

1) They were going to lock her up anyway.
2) True, except it would really be, "I will be free to murder and live a full life at the expense of many other people's lives. 
3) I will become stronger! I will survive! She can't let her own daughter live as a mass-murderer in peace!
4) More murder. More life-sucking. More mayhem.


I really don't know how to answer 5, 6 and 7. In all honesty, we already know what was going through Morinth's head. Killing, seduction, killing, more drugs, hunting, killing, art, music, more killing. She's very simple.

2) No, wrong. I think she started killing people BECAUSE of seclusion and her mother. 
She wouldn't be a mass murderer in peace.
She is not simple at all. 

2) But she never went into seclusion. She ran. Her mother wasn't trying to kill her BEFORE Morinth started killing others, only after. You're the one who wrote out Morinth's thought process and said, "Screw this I will be free and live a full life even if it cost me my life. Mother **** is going to kill me now, can't let her own daughter live in
peace. Well screw her too! I will become stronger! I will survive!"

You said that, not me. I just corrected it.

Modifié par Asenza, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:20 .

[D.Kain]

Asenza wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

1) They were going to lock her up anyway.
2) True, except it would really be, "I will be free to murder and live a full life at the expense of many other people's lives. 
3) I will become stronger! I will survive! She can't let her own daughter live as a mass-murderer in peace!
4) More murder. More life-sucking. More mayhem.


I really don't know how to answer 5, 6 and 7. In all honesty, we already know what was going through Morinth's head. Killing, seduction, killing, more drugs, hunting, killing, art, music, more killing. She's very simple.

2) No, wrong. I think she started killing people BECAUSE of seclusion and her mother. 
She wouldn't be a mass murderer in peace.
She is not simple at all. 

2) But she never went into seclusion. She ran. Her mother wasn't trying to kill her BEFORE Morinth started killing others, only after. You're the one who wrote out Morinth's thought process and said,

She killed one person by acident and then run away. That was enough for Samara.

Edit: with full life I meant, not being locked up, not killing.

I think it's like Orsino - you want your blood mage? You get one!

Modifié par D.Kain, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:25 .

[Raganheart]

Asenza wrote...

Raganheart wrote...

lol the specualations are incredible, but only time will tell and the secrets will be revealed soon.

Oh, come on, I was expecting something more from you, you're the one who started this thread.

@ Xilizhra

Isolation is not poor and misguided, it is effective and the only option available. It didn't work for Morinth because she ran away. Because she wanted to kill. Because she couldn't do that in isolation.

On the latter point, you're avoiding the issue. Again. We don't need Morinth to tell us every crime she's ever committed. We know she's done some. We've seen her apartment. We've heard her talk. She was exceedingly open about it. Samara filled in some blank spaces. We have no reason to believe she lied. There is nothing else to Morinth that we haven't seen already.  She's either a shallow character, which makes her a bit of a writing fail for Bioware, because shallow is easy, compared to complexity and depth or she is just is a simple mass murderer who kills for her high, exactly what it says on the box.

If you want to convict Morinth then you might as well convict others. Like Kasumi, Thane, Zaeed, Garrus, and even Shepard.

Kasumi is a thief and if she is in danger of getting caught she will kill to esape. Zaeed is a mercenary enough said. Garrus and Thane are one alike. Who is Garrus to start taking out mercenaries without using the law. Yes he says C-Sec wasn´t helping in the matter, but there is always a way to get justice served in the right manner. Thane is a gun for hire. He is an assassin for a Hanar. He does kill people who are not so good, but he still kills them. Why not be a spy, collect evidence, and submit it to C-Sec or the council for someone like Nassana? Then we arrive to Shepard. If you decide to be a complete renegade you kill people in cold blood. Also, that affects other characters like Mordin. Maelon´s research was not good at all, but he should be sent to prison or spared however you see it, but you do have the option to let Mordin kill Maelon. What does that make Mordin? a murderer, yes. Everyone has their bad past. I think everyone deserves a second chance to heal and become a better person. I think that Morinth can do this under Shepard. As she states she is intrigued by Shepard´s character and has never met anyone like him. Have you ever been going through a rough patch in relationships and every single one is bad for you or turns out bad until you find that person that turns it all around? Well, I think this is her new start. 

[Asenza]

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

1) They were going to lock her up anyway.
2) True, except it would really be, "I will be free to murder and live a full life at the expense of many other people's lives. 
3) I will become stronger! I will survive! She can't let her own daughter live as a mass-murderer in peace!
4) More murder. More life-sucking. More mayhem.


I really don't know how to answer 5, 6 and 7. In all honesty, we already know what was going through Morinth's head. Killing, seduction, killing, more drugs, hunting, killing, art, music, more killing. She's very simple.

2) No, wrong. I think she started killing people BECAUSE of seclusion and her mother. 
She wouldn't be a mass murderer in peace.
She is not simple at all. 

2) But she never went into seclusion. She ran. Her mother wasn't trying to kill her BEFORE Morinth started killing others, only after. You're the one who wrote out Morinth's thought process and said,

She killed one person by acident and then run away. That was enough for Samara.

Edit: with full life I meant, not being locked up, not killing.

I think it's like Orsino - you want your blood mage? You get one!

Again, we don't know if it was by accident or not. Since you and Xilizhra say that, lacking evidence, it was an accident, I say that, lacking evidence, it wasn't.

And it was enough for Samara because she knew that Morinth wouldn't stop there. She didn't. Hundreds of years. Hundreds of murders, maybe thousands of murders.

Modifié par Asenza, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:37 .

[D.Kain]

Asenza wrote...

Again, we don't know if it was by accident or not. Since you and X say that, lacking evidence, it was an accident, I say that, lacking evidence, it wasn't.

And it was enough for Samara because she knew that Morinth wouldn't stop there. She didn't. Hundreds of years. Hundreds of murders, maybe thousands of murders.

Because of Samara...

[Asenza]

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

Again, we don't know if it was by accident or not. Since you and X say that, lacking evidence, it was an accident, I say that, lacking evidence, it wasn't.

And it was enough for Samara because she knew that Morinth wouldn't stop there. She didn't. Hundreds of years. Hundreds of murders, maybe thousands of murders.

Because of Samara...

Because Samara was a pureblood, who mated with another Asari. Because she was unlucky enough to birth Ardat-Yakshi children. But Samara didn't make Morinth go forth and kill many. As proof that Ardat-Yakshi aren't destined to destruction, Morinth's sisters, Rila and Falere prove that Morinth didn't have to be defined by her disorder. But she did. Morinth decided to use her condition as an excuse to kill.

And that is her fault, alone, not Samara's.

[D.Kain]

Asenza wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

Again, we don't know if it was by accident or not. Since you and X say that, lacking evidence, it was an accident, I say that, lacking evidence, it wasn't.

And it was enough for Samara because she knew that Morinth wouldn't stop there. She didn't. Hundreds of years. Hundreds of murders, maybe thousands of murders.

Because of Samara...

Because Samara was a pureblood, who mated with another Asari. Because she was unlucky enough to birth Ardat-Yakshi children. But Samara didn't make Morinth go forth and kill many. As proof that Ardat-Yakshi aren't destined to destruction, Morinth's sisters, Rila and Falere prove that Morinth didn't have to be defined by her disorder. But she did. Morinth decided to use her condition as an excuse to kill.

And that is her fault, alone, not Samara's.

Well Morinth wasn't a murderer until she had to become one to survive her mother. She had to become one in order to live fully. 

[Asenza]

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

Again, we don't know if it was by accident or not. Since you and X say that, lacking evidence, it was an accident, I say that, lacking evidence, it wasn't.

And it was enough for Samara because she knew that Morinth wouldn't stop there. She didn't. Hundreds of years. Hundreds of murders, maybe thousands of murders.

Because of Samara...

Because Samara was a pureblood, who mated with another Asari. Because she was unlucky enough to birth Ardat-Yakshi children. But Samara didn't make Morinth go forth and kill many. As proof that Ardat-Yakshi aren't destined to destruction, Morinth's sisters, Rila and Falere prove that Morinth didn't have to be defined by her disorder. But she did. Morinth decided to use her condition as an excuse to kill.

And that is her fault, alone, not Samara's.

Well Morinth wasn't a murderer until she had to become one to survive her mother. She had to become one in order to live fully. 

So she had to become a mass-murderer to survive her mother. To live fully... no. If escape was all Morinth wanted, and if one murder was necessary to achieve that, and if she didn't kill anyone after the first, after she became free, then yes, I would agree with you.

But that's not the case. It didn't stop there. She killed. Then killed more. Then more, then more. If she had kill for freedom and then no more, and was guilty and regretful about it but ecstatic and delighted at being able to travel the universe, fine. I would have loved her character. But that isn't what happened.

Modifié par Asenza, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:47 .

[D.Kain]

Asenza wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

Again, we don't know if it was by accident or not. Since you and X say that, lacking evidence, it was an accident, I say that, lacking evidence, it wasn't.

And it was enough for Samara because she knew that Morinth wouldn't stop there. She didn't. Hundreds of years. Hundreds of murders, maybe thousands of murders.

Because of Samara...

Because Samara was a pureblood, who mated with another Asari. Because she was unlucky enough to birth Ardat-Yakshi children. But Samara didn't make Morinth go forth and kill many. As proof that Ardat-Yakshi aren't destined to destruction, Morinth's sisters, Rila and Falere prove that Morinth didn't have to be defined by her disorder. But she did. Morinth decided to use her condition as an excuse to kill.

And that is her fault, alone, not Samara's.

Well Morinth wasn't a murderer until she had to become one to survive her mother. She had to become one in order to live fully. 

So she had to become a mass-murderer to survive her mother. To live fully... no. If escape was all Morinth wanted, and if one murder was necessary to achieve that, and if she didn't kill anyone after the first, after she became free, then yes, I would agree with you.

But that's not the case. It didn't stop there. She killed. Then killed more. Then more, then more. If she had kill for freedom and then no more, and was guilty and regretful about it but ecstatic and delighted at being able to travel the universe, fine. I would have loved her character. But that isn't what happened.

She is not only trying to survive which is her main goal when she is rejected by the whole asari society and she is an outcast. She is also pissed at the asari society and her mother and might as well hold them responsible for her actions, which they are. Samara would find her eventually, Morinth needs the power to fight her.

[Asenza]

@ D.Kain,

You're romanticizing her.

Modifié par Asenza, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:56 .

[D.Kain]

Asenza wrote...

@ D.Kain,

You're romanticizing her.

Didn't get that at first. Not really, I can really imagine that kind of a situation. It sucks but it is what it is. :happy:

Modifié par D.Kain, 26 septembre 2011 - 05:03 .

[Asenza]

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

@ D.Kain,

You're romanticizing her.

In one of my playthroughs yes - celebate style. 

In another I romance Liara and Morinth is my friend.

I rephrase that. You're overly-romanticizing her. She's not makin a stand for the outcasts of asari society. She's not fighting against cruel injustice. She's not even fighting for herself, for survival. Because killing others isn't necessary for her continued existence. She just wants to get her high. She's fighting because she wants to kill people and other people want to stop her. That's it.

[D.Kain]

Asenza wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Asenza wrote...

@ D.Kain,

You're romanticizing her.

In one of my playthroughs yes - celebate style. 

In another I romance Liara and Morinth is my friend.

I rephrase that. You're overly-romanticizing her. She's not makin a stand for the outcasts of asari society. She's not fighting against cruel injustice. She's not even fighting for herself, for survival. Because killing others isn't necessary for her continued existence. She just wants to get her high. She's fighting because she wants to kill people and other people want to stop her. That's it.

Oh come on. She's not that one dimensional. You are making a brainless drug addict out of her. I think she is deeper. No drug can make ones existance better than a happy life. but she is looking at it from a pretty selfih perspective yes, from her own view.

Modifié par D.Kain, 26 septembre 2011 - 05:08 .