163 réponses à ce sujet

[jbrand2002uk]

Hawke Does have motivation at 1st its to get his family away and safe from the Darkspawn horde which is done with some success, then once arriving there his goal broadens to get him and his family into Kirkwall, after that shifts to get out of lowtown and buy back the Amell estate mainly for his mothers happiness more than anything else now while he may not have power as in the authority to do things he has power of a sort in that he is respected by the other noble houses and is effectively the Viscount's consol after Braun who holds the Official title.

After that the reason for staying is a little fuzzy trying to avoid spoilers,but on the other hand he has nowhere else to go. As for the Warden while you can decide his looks and the Origin of his begining as well as implying your own slant on his dialogue due to the lack of a voice each of the dialogue choices was already pre-scripted with an intended intent and tone and the NPC's response to each was wriiten in response to the intent of each option.

When it bores down to it the Warden is Equally as pre-scripted as Hawke the only difference being is that DAO holds that illusion of choice more effectively

[billy the squid]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Hawke Does have motivation at 1st its to get his family away and safe from the Darkspawn horde which is done with some success, then once arriving there his goal broadens to get him and his family into Kirkwall, after that shifts to get out of lowtown and buy back the Amell estate mainly for his mothers happiness more than anything else now while he may not have power as in the authority to do things he has power of a sort in that he is respected by the other noble houses and is effectively the Viscount's consol after Braun who holds the Official title.

After that the reason for staying is a little fuzzy trying to avoid spoilers,but on the other hand he has nowhere else to go. As for the Warden while you can decide his looks and the Origin of his begining as well as implying your own slant on his dialogue due to the lack of a voice each of the dialogue choices was already pre-scripted with an intended intent and tone and the NPC's response to each was wriiten in response to the intent of each option.

When it bores down to it the Warden is Equally as pre-scripted as Hawke the only difference being is that DAO holds that illusion of choice more effectively

If Act 1 is focused on Hawke's family and personal life in the first turbulent years of Kirkwall, the the glaring problem is that I don't care. There is no investment within those characters, the inital escape from the blight comes out of nowhere, I only have the vaguest sense of who these character's are. Thus the entirety of act 1 is spent doing fetch quests to get money, before going on a Deep road expedition, which has warning signs written all over it.

Whilst Hawke doesn't have an power at all, respect is essentially rendered moot if he has no political influence which is implied by status. As such the de fatco consol to the Viscount, is again largely pointless. The reasoning behind DA2 in general is more than a little fuzzy, Act 2 is better, probably the best part, whiilst the reasoning behind Act 3, the less said the better.

The actual responses of the Warden are inevitably prescripted, like every single game where one responds to NPCs is inherent with the medium. The difference with DAO is the the blight is a plot device to drive the game. The actual actions and certain consequences available take place within the main body of the quests the blight is a distant problem only brought in at the end and plays a secondary role in how the quests are performed and at certain points events on quests will overlap and affect one another.

Modifié par billy the squid, 25 septembre 2011 - 01:29 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Sepewrath wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Ah but you forget, Cammen quest is side quest while Circle of Tower and Eamon is main plot. You can don't do Cammen quest but Circle of Tower, Eamon and everything else that matter to you, is your priority to accomplish your goal. Whether they matter or not is irrelevant to your personality wise. It's all about your goal and your motivation. If you don't want to save the world because you are too selfish that you can't blow off Eamon, then what the purpose of you playing DAO?

Exactly, so when people are whining about how all their choices are disregarded and Hawke is led to the same spot regardless and then complain. Why are you playing DA2? Hawke cant leave Kirkwall, Hawke cant kill Petrice, because those this game is designed to push to a specific end point.

I know pretty well why I was playing DA2 - because it was the sequel to my favourite game of the last years, and I wanted to immerse myself in a new, interesting story set in a fantasy universe I found very appealing. I play DA:O because I think it's a pretty frickin great game.

The important point is why my Warden/my Hawke are doing what they are doing, and how much I as the player can relate to and influence their goals and motivations, and their corresponding actions. I finished three Wardens, and started a lot more, and they all had pretty good reasons for what they did while trying to SAVE THE WORLD.

Yes, it's more than a bit cliched, but trying to save everything you know from total annihilation is a pretty solid motivation to set the player character on the path through a game's story. Yes, every game ends with the Archdemon being killed, but the journey up to this point can be a very different one in DA:O. It is true that you can't give the Wardens the finger and just walk away from the Blight, but a character who just gives a **** about the world being overrun by Darkspawn is ONE pretty extreme character concept that is unavailable.

Hawke on the other hand doesn't have a world to save, he just wants to... yeah, what does he want? My first of two Hawkes I finished DA2 with just wanted to protect his family and friends and make sure they have a good life, which fitted the character I wanted to play and seemed the most logical motivation for any Hawke. The fact that each Hawke is forced to go to AND stay in Kirkwall although the Hawkes have nothing to return to there and despite everyone thinking that it's stupid to begin with (except of course nostalgic mother Hawke) brings the whole setup on one level with not being able to tell the Wardens to **** off for me.

Once my particular Warden was set on his path to stop the Archdemon most of the things I as the player let him do from then on were more or less exactly the things my Warden would have done according to his personality, his background and his beliefs. There was also no reason to stop in what he was doing until the game was over.

My first Hawke on the other hand was quite often forced to do things that he just wouldn't have done. He had a clear pro mage point of view, mostly because of his apostate sister. All he ever wanted to achieve was to establish a life for him and his family in as much peace and prosperity as possible, and probably to find love. At the end of the second act every single one of his reasons to stay in Kirkwall had gone, EVERY SINGLE ONE. He had no motivation at all to witness the events in the third act, and I had little to no motivation to play through them. And we all know that Act 3 isn't DA2 at it's best anyway, so that wasn't much fun.

And... I wrote more than I planned to and should already be asleep for several hours atm. So that's about it for now.


EDIT: curse those s

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 25 septembre 2011 - 01:44 .

[jbrand2002uk]

what more investment do you need other than its your characters mother and 2 siblings they are family which to most people are more important than money or power everything Hawke does he does for his family the whole point of the deep roads quest was to provide his surviving family with a home of their own away from Gamlen while simultaneously giving his mother back the life she was accustomed to as a child Hawke most likely cares nothing for wealth and status but sees it as a means to an end.

Having the ear of the Viscount may seem pointless to you but it says something to the other nobles that out of all the noble familys he turns to Hawke if you spend anytime in the keep you'll hear other nobles bickering about having to wait all day to see the Viscount while others requesting an audience with the Viscount are flat out turned away and yet Hawke who you say has no power can come and go as he pleases while also being the Viscounts confidant.

So Hawke has power and status just because he doesn't always gain something from it doesnt make it pointless if anything the other nobles are jealous that the Viscount trusts only Hawke with the matters he thinks are most urgent in such societies having the trust of the head of state is seen as power unto itself even if the head of state has little real power himself its called appearances

[Sacred_Fantasy]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

what more investment do you need other than its your characters mother and 2 siblings they are family which to most people are more important than money or power everything Hawke does he does for his family the whole point of the deep roads quest was to provide his surviving family with a home of their own away from Gamlen while simultaneously giving his mother back the life she was accustomed to as a child Hawke most likely cares nothing for wealth and status but sees it as a means to an end.

Exactly! I think majority of people who play DA 2 are looking for family value within Hawke's story. But as Billy the Squid point out, it was vaguely exposed ever since you left Loitering. Which is why I blame third person narration for this. Varric has no concern in detailing Hawke's personal life. He was pressed by Cassandra to tell the story about Mage-Templar conflict which has nothing to do with Hawke's personal life. Third person always sucked when telling other people personal life which is why it must be Hawke himself to tell his own personal story.

[Reno_Tarshil]

SarcasticHawke: Oh how I hate being an imaginary character in someone else's world.

[TheRealJayDee]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

what more investment do you need other than its your characters mother and 2 siblings they are family which to most people are more important than money or power everything Hawke does he does for his family the whole point of the deep roads quest was to provide his surviving family with a home of their own away from Gamlen while simultaneously giving his mother back the life she was accustomed to as a child Hawke most likely cares nothing for wealth and status but sees it as a means to an end.

I totally agree, that should be all investment you need, and it was all my Hawke cared for. He didn't care for status or wealth beyond what he needed for his family (and friends to some extent). But as I said, besides the fact that I consider the whole family aspect to be executed rather weakly, at a certain point in the game this motivation was gone completely for my Hawke. So what reason does my William Hawke, who never cared for money or status, have to stay in a Kirkwall that holds nothing for him except for bad memories?

(what am I stilll doing here... need to sleep)

[Sepewrath]

LookingGlass93 wrote...
1) The Warden can kill or have killed Alistair, Wynne, Shale, Leliana, Sten and Zevran. Hawke can kill Anders, and that's it; even giving Isabella to the Arishok has no lasting effect.


2) The Warden can choose between different outcomes in all five main army recruitment quests (templars or mages, werewolves or elves etc). Hawke has one branching choice, siding with Petrice, and that's only open to Aggressive Hawke.

And what difference does either of those choices make, Do you not end up on the roof? Do you not have an army to summon? Hell even if you kill Alistair, you just end up with Anora wearing the exact same armor, giving the exact same speech, in the exact same spot. Nothing changes. Whether you leave Sten in that cage or not, makes no difference. Whether you choose Bhelen or Harrowmont, makes no difference. And more importantly, its not the lack of choices causing significant change to the plot, because like I said DA2 doesn't do it either.

The point is, the Warden wasn't necessary to make the choices, Alistair could have made those calls. But Anders had to reason to join Bartrand's expedition, neither did Aveline. Isabela wouldn't have been dealing with the Arishok, none of them would have become nobles and got tied up in the politics of the city. Hawke could not be replaced, save by maybe Carver or Bethany, but that wouldn't really count.

@RagingCyclone

No they wouldn't have, I don't want to post spoilers because their not allowed. But lets just say this, how would the idol have gotten to Kirkwall if Hawke didn't join the expidition. Who else had the motivation and means to do so, by having connections with the underworld and the city guard? And please don't respond with, "Oh they could have made up a character" because obviously, but we're talking about replacing the PC with the person right next to them and Hawke couldn't be replaced.

@Sacred Fantasy

Yes Flemeth said that because your Warden, head honcho of the game was there. If you were playing the game as Alistair, she would said "Alistair blah blah blah, your our only hope. Go get em" The Warden was so generalized, that their easily replaced, all they served as what an avatar for the player to make choices. They were not actually in the story.

And yeah I'm well aware that its a framed narrative, but that doesn't mean anything. All you did was watch from a monitor in DAO, what you think it made a difference, because they used a different narrative device. In DA2 the moment you booted up the game, you were destined to end up at the ending location, it wouldn't have changed it Varric was telling the story or not. Its the same in DAO, you were destined to end up on that roof, what do you think it would be different if they had Arl Eamon telling the story? The story was already set in stone, so that last point was irrelevant.

[FieryDove]

I agree with billy the squid and TheRealJayDee.They said pretty much what I felt playing the game and trying to follow the storyline.

Sepewrath wrote...

And yeah I'm well aware that its a framed narrative, but that doesn't mean anything. All you did was watch from a monitor in DAO, what you think it made a difference, because they used a different narrative device. In DA2 the moment you booted up the game, you were destined to end up at the ending location, it wouldn't have changed it Varric was telling the story or not. Its the same in DAO, you were destined to end up on that roof, what do you think it would be different if they had Arl Eamon telling the story? The story was already set in stone, so that last point was irrelevant.

I suppose if DAO had been very similar the monitor would have went black as the first year played out...then again when the 3 year time jumps happened with a small icon indicatiing the *game* will begin again in 5 minutes or so. Yes?

Seeing the whole story/game does seem important if one *is* trying to be invested in a story. Maybe? Yes? No?
 

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Sepewrath wrote...
And what difference does either of those choices make, Do you not end up on the roof?

Yes I do but do I have to end up on the same roof every single play through? As far as I concern, The Warden has 3 major roof. Continue to live until his calling, Ultimate Sacrifice or enter the eluvian mirror. How many roofs does Hawke has? 

Sepewrath wrote...
Do you not have an army to summon?

Yes I do but is that army the same army everytime I play the game? How many variable do Hawke has?   

Sepewrath wrote...
Hell even if you kill Alistair, you just end up with Anora wearing the exact same armor, giving the exact same speech, in the exact same spot. Nothing changes. Whether you leave Sten in that cage or not, makes no difference. Whether you choose Bhelen or Harrowmont, makes no difference.

Check the epilogue. It's the easiest way to find out the differences. And no. you do not have to see the implication. It's there. 

Sepewrath wrote...
And more importantly, its not the lack of choices causing significant change to the plot, because like I said DA2 doesn't do it either.

Here's what DA 2 do that DAO don't do. I choose option A, it's result is the same as choosing option C. And I am not talking about main plot only.

Sepewrath wrote...
The point is, the Warden wasn't necessary to make the choices, Alistair could have made those calls.

You still believe Alistair is capable to do such things without the Warden influence, do you? Nevermind, I'll explain later. 

Sepewrath wrote...
But Anders had to reason to join Bartrand's expedition, neither did Aveline. Isabela wouldn't have been dealing with the Arishok, none of them would have become nobles and got tied up in the politics of the city. Hawke could not be replaced, save by maybe Carver or Bethany, but that wouldn't really count.

Wheter Hawke and the companion join the expedition or not, Batrand will find his way to make it happens. He already turn down Hawke once. What make you so sure he couldn't find anyone else?
  

Sepewrath wrote...
No they wouldn't have, I don't want to post spoilers because their not allowed. But lets just say this, how would the idol have gotten to Kirkwall if Hawke didn't join the expidition. Who else had the motivation and means to do so, by having connections with the underworld and the city guard? And please don't respond with, "Oh they could have made up a character" because obviously, but we're talking about replacing the PC with the person right next to them and Hawke couldn't be replaced.

Bartrand had the motivation. He didn't have the map and money only. But that's not a big deal. It's treasure hunting. People were lining to join the expedition before Hawke even offer his help as expedition guard. He still can blow his way in even if he didn't have Anders' Map.

Sepewrath wrote...
Yes Flemeth said that because your Warden, head honcho of the game was there. If you were playing the game as Alistair, she would said "Alistair blah blah blah, your our only hope. Go get em"

If I played as Alistair?? Riiiiight..... If I played as Alistair then there won't be any Alistair at all. The game won't allowed me to have my sister at Denerim or to love Morrigan or to perform DR with Morrigan without my love one, Amber Cousland to persuade me etc... Anyway, the real Alistair was not capable. He couldn't do it even if you claimed Flemeth told him that he's the only hope. I could. Alistair couldn't. Alistair couldn't be a leader unless someone is influencing him. In fact, he did not want to be King in the first place. He couldn't even handle his own sister. Let alone to face Bhelen or Harrowind political crisis. Morrigan already asked him regarding leadership and his seniority as the warden. He said he rather follow than lead. He also said to the warden near Loitering, "I'll just follow whatever you decide." See? He couldn't decide. He knew what to do. He didn't know how nor did he had the player's charisma to deal with various head fraction in Ferelden. Heck, even Sten could beat him easily in swordplay.


 

Sepewrath wrote...
The Warden was so generalized, that their easily replaced, all they served as what an avatar for the player to make choices. They were not actually in the story.

Then here is one warden that is not generalized. Riordan. He failed. We all see him failed. The warden was lucky because Riordan manage to bring down the Archdemon. It's not an easy feat. For 5 blights, many wardens died trying to end the blights. Only 5 of them succeed. Not any warden can end the blight as easy as you put it.  You can't simply shoot the Archdemon with arrow or cast a spell while it is still in the air. And here is something else for your consideration. After the rebellion, the number of wardens had been reduced drastically. As Duncan said, they are few now. So what are the odd for any wardens to end up the blight? We know Riordan failed. Alistair won't go to Landsmeet to become king unless the warden influence him. If he doesn't go to Landsmeet then who will save Riordan from prison? Eamon can't influence Alistair . I can. So who else beside Cousland or Mahariel or Aueducan or Amell? There is no one else at Ferelden. It will be destroyed if any other wardens tried to end the blight. If Ferelden is destroyed and so would your prescious Hawke at Kirkwall. It's really not that far for the darkspawn to reach Kirkwall before the wardens from Orlesia arrive. If anyone else who is not in the story, it's Hawke himself. Hawke is too busy outside the game watching his own interaction with the companions and listening to fairy tales told by his buddy Varric. That's why he is "gone" entire time. 

Sepewrath wrote...
And yeah I'm well aware that its a framed narrative, but that doesn't mean anything. All you did was watch from a monitor in DAO, what you think it made a difference, because they used a different narrative device.

In DA2 the moment you booted up the game, you were destined to end up at the ending location, it wouldn't have changed it Varric was telling the story or not.

DAO story began the moment you assume the role of the Warden. Not 3 years later after the blight had ended but now. Before the blight. Every choice, decision and consequences matter in the game. The Warden as the character mattared. You have a role to play. You need to stop the blight before it consume everything and everyone. You have a destination to reach. It's more than just watching from a monitor.

It's not the same case for DA 2. Hawke already ended the story ealier before you. He knew what happened. You don't. Hawke already reached the roof. You don't. Hawke already reached the end of his destination. You don't  Hawke is gone. You can't be gone. And Varric is not making it more easier for you. Yes you can still reach the roof like you did in DAO. But what's the point? What have you accomplished now?  What matter to you now? where are your companions now? How can you be "gone" now? How can you don't know anything about your own past? You are nowhere. You are nobody. Nothing you did matter anymore. It's all in the past. You have no actual role to play. So yes, you do nothing but watching Varric and Cassandra from your monitor, imagining things, according to Varric. 

We don't live in the past. We live today and looking forward for the future.

That's the difference between DAO and DA 2.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 25 septembre 2011 - 12:43 .

[RagingCyclone]

Sepewrath wrote...

@RagingCyclone

No they wouldn't have, I don't want to post spoilers because their not allowed. But lets just say this, how would the idol have gotten to Kirkwall if Hawke didn't join the expidition. Who else had the motivation and means to do so, by having connections with the underworld and the city guard? And please don't respond with, "Oh they could have made up a character" because obviously, but we're talking about replacing the PC with the person right next to them and Hawke couldn't be replaced.

The idol isn't necessary for the events to unfold. Sure it's a nice little plot device to make it seem so, but even before the expedition the signs are there to point to the ending event happening regardless if the idol had been found or the expedition even took place. Perhaps the idol accelerated the timeline, but the reult would have been the same (minus some strange effects and glowy bits<_<)  The point is that Hawke is as relevent to DA2 as the warden is to Origins.

[Pasquale1234]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

what more investment do you need other than its your characters mother and 2 siblings they are family which to most people are more important than money or power everything Hawke does he does for his family the whole point of the deep roads quest was to provide his surviving family with a home of their own away from Gamlen while simultaneously giving his mother back the life she was accustomed to as a child Hawke most likely cares nothing for wealth and status but sees it as a means to an end.

I totally agree, that should be all investment you need, and it was all my Hawke cared for. He didn't care for status or wealth beyond what he needed for his family (and friends to some extent). But as I said, besides the fact that I consider the whole family aspect to be executed rather weakly, at a certain point in the game this motivation was gone completely for my Hawke. So what reason does my William Hawke, who never cared for money or status, have to stay in a Kirkwall that holds nothing for him except for bad memories?

(what am I stilll doing here... need to sleep)

QFT.

This was also a huge problem for me.  The only motivations I could find for Hawke were pretty much over and done with by the middle of the second act.  I spent the rest of the game trying to find some reason for Hawke to continue with the story.  No goals.  No objectives.  Nothing left to do or to accomplish - other than to continue to react to events orchestrated by other characters.

Sepewrath wrote...

And what difference does either of
those choices make, Do you not end up on the roof? Do you not have an
army to summon? Hell even if you kill Alistair, you just end up with
Anora wearing the exact same armor, giving the exact same speech, in the
exact same spot. Nothing changes. Whether you leave Sten in that cage
or not, makes no difference. Whether you choose Bhelen or Harrowmont,
makes no difference. And more importantly, its not the lack of choices
causing significant change to the plot, because like I said DA2 doesn't
do it either.

The Warden had a purpose - a very specific objective to achieve, and major questlines laid out to achieve that purpose.  Stopping the blight provided the Warden with the motivation to continue throughout the story, something to strive for, something to accomplish.  Hawke had no such thing.

Sepewrath wrote...

No they wouldn't have, I don't want to post spoilers because their not
allowed. But lets just say this, how would the idol have gotten to
Kirkwall if Hawke didn't join the expidition. Who else had the
motivation and means to do so, by having connections with the underworld
and the city guard? And please don't respond with, "Oh they could have
made up a character" because obviously, but we're talking about
replacing the PC with the person right next to them and Hawke couldn't
be replaced.

Varric.  I hope you're not suggesting that Varric could not have easily found some other mook to do the same things that Hawke did.  It was all Varric's urging that brought Hawke into the expedition and brought Hawke to Anders to get the maps.  Even without Varric's involvement, Bartrand may very well have found some other way to get the expedition into the Deep Roads.

And, in the end, the result was.... what?  The start of a revolution that may tear Thedas apart, which may have eventually happened with or without Hawke.  The end result for the Warden's story was saving the world from the threat posed by the blight.

[Oopsieoops]

Family could had been a great motivation, but the execution just didn't lend itself to that path. First you get dropped into the run without having formed any connection with whatsoever with neither your family nor your previous life (compare that with any other origin story from DAO). The only clue you have about what you were or were doing prior to that point is a passing comment from Carver. Then (before you can even actually know, let alone care about) one sibling has a bridge dropped on him/her; next chapter the same happens with mom. The remaining sibling has either yet another bridge to the head or is sent on a bus till the very end of the game. Add to that the 3rd person narrative and the pseudo time skips and the end result is a utterly non engaging story about an opportunist who happened to be around when things hit the fan.

[Aradace]

Salaya wrote...

I'd rather not play a DA2 DLC that isn't Hawke-related, thank you very much.

I am looking forward to a fresh charcter for da3, but da2 dlc should be about Hawke and with Hawke as the controlled character or I aren't buying them.

Similarly.

Not even with [insert yor favorite companion or NPC here] as a main charcater? Personally, I think that a DLC with Varric as protagonist would be great.

Two things:

1.) It's been said already that Hawke will most likely NOT be the protagonist for the next DA game and neither will your Warden.

2.) It has also been said that we will NOT be having anymore DLC like Leliana's Song (Thank the maker) where you play as one of your companions.  DLCs will be centric to the protagonist.  

[OdanUrr]

Aradace wrote...

2.) It has also been said that we will NOT be having anymore DLC like Leliana's Song (Thank the maker) where you play as one of your companions.  DLCs will be centric to the protagonist.  

Except for Mark of the Assassin.

[Salaya]

Aradace wrote...

...

Two things:

1.) It's been said already that Hawke will most likely NOT be the protagonist for the next DA game and neither will your Warden.

2.) It has also been said that we will NOT be having anymore DLC like Leliana's Song (Thank the maker) where you play as one of your companions.  DLCs will be centric to the protagonist.  

Yes, I'm aware of this. But many things have been said in the past, and were contradicted later. Especially when it comes to Bioware and marketing for DA2. Anyway, that only reflects that devs and managers could (and must) change opinions. 

It's also confirmed that they aren't going to step back from the new art style; or the "new direction" in gameplay. Those are things I don't like, and I think it's cool that people like me, who liked bioware games in the past, and feel uncomfotable with the changes, could express their dissent in the forums

[Androme]

Despite the fact that I do not like Hawke, it is important to remember that a good storyline is partially determined by developing upon already existing characters, if they're just gonna scrap every single character introduced with each game in the next game then I can't see how these games will be called RPG's in the future. They said that they would try to solve the OGB situation, that's a good step towards solving such issues.

[Sepewrath]

I'm not going to quote all that stuff you people wrote, but I'll put it simply. Here are some examples: The Legend of Zelda, you could not pull Link out of the story without the story collapsing, there is no one right next to Link to fill in for Link. In Uncharted, you cant take Drake out and say have the exact same story, with Sully instead, wouldn't work. Or Gears of War 3, you couldn't take out Marcus and have Dom take over, because Dom is not Adam Fenix's son. In DAO, the only requirement of the PC was to be a Warden, that's it. That means you could have played the entire game as Alistair and personally I think that would have been a better story.

In DA2 you could not have taken Hawke out and kept the exact same story, If there's no Hawke, there's no Aveline, no Flemeth, Anders has no protection and more than likely gets run off(that's a pretty big one), the expedition never happens, who knows how the situation with Seamus and the Winters would have played out. The only thing that would have probably still happened, if Hawke wasn't around, was the end of Act 2 and even that is debatable. In other words, Hawke was essential to the story, if not for Hawke, the story could not exist.

Like I said with DAO, all you needed was a Grey Warden and Alistair fit the bill, the Warden had no plot relevance, Hawke did. I don't know why people are trying to deny it, if you don't like the game fine. Its not like saying the character having relevance to the story is some kind of praise, in the worst games ever, the main character is relevant. To deny what is obviously true, just because you don't like the game is ridiculous.

[seraphymon]

I disagree. You could take out hawke and alot would play the same. Theere would still be aveline still meeting flemeth. Still getting the lyirum out of the deep roads. Still the qunari invasion, perhaps even sooner than it occured.

Where as the warden had more roles to fil lthen just the warden because of their type of character. In which they can influence people such as Alistair to take the thrown. Something he would not have done himself. Personally i believe its all how you look at things. BUt for me at the end of the day people can always be replaced or things can always happen without their influence, and if not 1 particular thing. Something else would have.

[Sepewrath]

The player decided what Alistair would do, if you played as Alistair, you would still be deciding what Alistair did. And Aveline would not have met Flemeth, because she was being overrun, while trying to carry someone and Flemeth came down, only because of the Ogre and it seems that Flemeth knew more than she was letting on. So no Aveline would not have been in Kirkwall.

[seraphymon]

well then the player can decide what other companions would have done and make the same decisions as hawke or so if your arguing that controlling alistair makes his views on things irrevelant.

Everyone was being ovverun, take out on person doesnt stop the others from meeting up with Aveline and being in the same predicament that led to Aveline with Flemeth. So yes i believe Aveline would still be in the same situation with or without Hawke.

[Sepewrath]

No your not getting it, all trace of Hawke is out, that means no Carver or Bethany either; because obviously either of them could replace Hawke. Aveline is alone in that spot, with a wounded Wesley, she doesn't make it.

[seraphymon]

No Carver or Bethany yet either of them could replace Hawke? How does that make sense. Anyways just cause Hawke himself is out i didnt say Carver or Bethany or the mom are still not running away from lothering. Meaning they still meet up with Aveline, and still proceed with the same plotline to get to kirkwall. Especially when it was Bethany who first suggested it.

[RagingCyclone]

@Sepewrath---what I have been trying to tell you is that both the warden and Hawke have the same relevance to their respective stories. You keep bringing up the companions, but in the overall story the companions are also as relevant as the protagonist (with the exception of Morrigan which even then is a stretch to ending the blight). The events of Origins and DA2 will still go on with or without the protagonist and his/her gang. So what if Aveline doesn't make it to Kirkwall...her impact is what to the overall storyline? Same with Sten in Origins....and etc etc. I like both games, and yes I prefer my warden to Hawke for personal reasons, but to say one is more important than the other makes me think you either played one game half way or not paid as much attention, or are not being objective when making your statements.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

 

Sepewrath wrote... In DAO, the only requirement of the PC was to be a Warden, that's it. That means you could have played the entire game as Alistair and personally I think that would have been a better story.

That generalization is equal to saying that everyone can kill darkspawn. In theory it's true but practically it's not true. Most people in Thedas cannot kill darkspawn. There are other requirement. Skill, cunning, strategy, planning, luck etc...The same goes for warden organization.  

Sepewrath wrote...

In DA2 you could not have taken Hawke out and kept the exact same story, If there's no Hawke, there's no Aveline, no Flemeth, Anders has no protection and more than likely gets run off(that's a pretty big one), the expedition never happens, who knows how the situation with Seamus and the Winters would have played out. The only thing that would have probably still happened, if Hawke wasn't around, was the end of Act 2 and even that is debatable. In other words, Hawke was essential to the story, if not for Hawke, the story could not exist.

Cassandra isn't interested with ACT I and ACT 2. She is looking for the answer in ACT 3. The Mage-Templar crisis. That's the main point of her interrogation. It became clear to her that Hawke has nothing to do with the war. It's was Anders.  Whether Hawke is around or not is no longer important. Hawke maybe important in future but for now, Hawke significant for Cassandra is zero.
 

Sepewrath wrote...
Like I said with DAO, all you needed was a Grey Warden and Alistair fit the bill, the Warden had no plot relevance, Hawke did. I don't know why people are trying to deny it, if you don't like the game fine. Its not like saying the character having relevance to the story is some kind of praise, in the worst games ever, the main character is relevant. To deny what is obviously true, just because you don't like the game is ridiculous.

Alistair has no skill. ability and charisma to deal with the Dalish, The dwarves and mage/templar. Let alone to solve their problem. He is almost certain wiill not work along with PC's most powerful ally, Morrigan and maybe loosing Sten's as well. He may have support from his uncle Arl Eamon. But even so, his refusal to claim his birth right as the king deem any action against Loghain useless. The Grey Warden treaty cannot be executed if Alistair is left in charge. The most logical thing for Alistair to do in the absence of PC is getting reinforcement from Fort Weisshupt and that would mean Ferelden will be gone. 

As for Hawke. He's insignificant to Mage-Templar war. It was Anders that Cassandra wanted the most. Whether Hawke exist or not is the least of the chantry problem. The expedition will carry on even without Hawke. It's not Hawke that organize the expedition. It's Bartrand's expedition. Period.