163 réponses à ce sujet

[Sepewrath]

Because Hawke's motivations for doing what happens at the end of Act 1, which is the catalyst for the rest of the story; is the family, so Carver and Bethany would have those same motivations. To express the idea of the effect that Hawke has on the story, all things Hawke have to removed. That means none of them are there, there are no Hawkes in the story.

Now apply that to Origins, remove everything related to the PC Warden. Start in Ostagar and play the story out in your head, don't even think about playing as any character. Just play the story out in your head, with that one character missing and see if it changes.

[Stoomkal]

I have never heard a better explanation as to why Hawke is irrelevant to his own game.

I think that is funny - you can actually *argue* that Anders is the relevant antagonist of the story... with Hawke barely filling the role of protagonist - he is mostly spectator to relevant events for Cassandra.

Considering the "OGB and Warden" plot has been abandoned, I really cannot say what direction DA3 will take... but I would be suprised if they can get any less relevancy out of Hawke.

He will need something epic to do in the final game to even be barely memorable, IMO.

[OdanUrr]

Sepewrath wrote...

Because Hawke's motivations for doing what happens at the end of Act 1, which is the catalyst for the rest of the story; is the family, so Carver and Bethany would have those same motivations. To express the idea of the effect that Hawke has on the story, all things Hawke have to removed. That means none of them are there, there are no Hawkes in the story.

Now apply that to Origins, remove everything related to the PC Warden. Start in Ostagar and play the story out in your head, don't even think about playing as any character. Just play the story out in your head, with that one character missing and see if it changes.

It changes. Without the Warden in Ostagar, every other Warden dies.

[seraphymon]

Sepewrath wrote...

Because Hawke's motivations for doing what happens at the end of Act 1, which is the catalyst for the rest of the story; is the family, so Carver and Bethany would have those same motivations. To express the idea of the effect that Hawke has on the story, all things Hawke have to removed. That means none of them are there, there are no Hawkes in the story.

Now apply that to Origins, remove everything related to the PC Warden. Start in Ostagar and play the story out in your head, don't even think about playing as any character. Just play the story out in your head, with that one character missing and see if it changes.

If hawke is the one thing left out, that means either carver or bethany than would have or could fill that role for provding for family. but as the story unfolds there is only the mother left after act 1, and soon no family left. So that argument is moot.

In origins  had our warden not been there. Id imagine that the 3 part armies would play out in one way or another  primarily prolly templars for circle tower. However i find that the situation for the lands meet would screw over alistair no matter what. Leaving the state in turmoil or so having Loghain still being charge. or so. The warden i feel is  or could have been the make or break difference in thedas survival, not based on because he is a warden and thus capable of slaying the archdemon, but because of his influence that only that missing person from that group could add.

[Sepewrath]

Well actually I said all Hawkes are left out. The Landsmeet would end in a duel, in which all Alistair has to do is win, same exact outcome as with the PC Warden. And I guess you meant Ferelden's survival, because Thedas would have survived if Ferelden was destroyed. Alistair as a Warden could go through the treaties and get the exact same influence the Warden got, with the added bonus of his bloodline. Nothing changes.

OdanUrr wrote...
It changes. Without the Warden in Ostagar, every other Warden dies.

All the Wardens die with the Warden there. Alistair would have been in the tower, Flemeth saves him and the story continues

[RagingCyclone]

Sepewrath wrote...

Because Hawke's motivations for doing what happens at the end of Act 1, which is the catalyst for the rest of the story; is the family, so Carver and Bethany would have those same motivations. To express the idea of the effect that Hawke has on the story, all things Hawke have to removed. That means none of them are there, there are no Hawkes in the story.

Now apply that to Origins, remove everything related to the PC Warden. Start in Ostagar and play the story out in your head, don't even think about playing as any character. Just play the story out in your head, with that one character missing and see if it changes.

Here's the challenge for you then, take Hawke out, there is still a mage underground, Meredith still has more power than her station allows, and Qunari still there. The events of Act 2 still occur, and the events of Act 3 still occur. And Hawke had no factor in these at all which are the main focus of the overall plotline. Again Hawke is as relevant as the warden is.

[seraphymon]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well actually I said all Hawkes are left out. The Landsmeet would end in a duel, in which all Alistair has to do is win, same exact outcome as with the PC Warden. And I guess you meant Ferelden's survival, because Thedas would have survived if Ferelden was destroyed. Alistair as a Warden could go through the treaties and get the exact same influence the Warden got, with the added bonus of his bloodline. Nothing changes.

OdanUrr wrote...
It changes. Without the Warden in Ostagar, every other Warden dies.

All the Wardens die with the Warden there. Alistair would have been in the tower, Flemeth saves him and the story continues

Yes i meant Ferelden's survival my bad, However i dont see Alistair even dueling Loghain. First and foremost because he doesnt want the throne. Nor would Eamon really wanted Alistair at first thought because they would seem no better than Loghain. Nor would Anora marry the man that slain her father. But because of the influences of the warden thigns can happen very differently without Alistair being screwed or just allowing Loghain to rule for the sake of uniting the lands.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well actually I said all Hawkes are left out. The Landsmeet would end in a duel, in which all Alistair has to do is win, same exact outcome as with the PC Warden.

No it won't. There is no Hero of Ferelden who give green light for Arl Eamon to proceed to Landsmeet.  There is no army and Landsmeet event will not occur while Alistair continue to refuse to confront Loghain to claim his birth right. 

Sepewrath wrote...
And I guess you meant Ferelden's survival, because Thedas would have survived if Ferelden was destroyed.

 No. It also mean, Kirkwall and the Free Marched will be over run by darkspawn. The grey wardens battle with the archdemon will take place at somewhere else and part of Thedas will be destroyed like the previous 4 blights.

Sepewrath wrote...
Alistair as a Warden could go through the treaties and get the exact same influence the Warden got, with the added bonus of his bloodline.

No he won't. The Dallish and The dwarves will not come to aid because Alistair lack of skill to solve their problem. Alistair skill is only basic templar/warrior with no support from Morrigan. ( Alistair refuse to bring along Morrigan at Flemeth Hut. )  He lack of PC's cunning to solve problem which was designed for PC..
With that in mind, he will be slained by the Golems at Deep Road. The mage at the Circle will certainly face annulment since Alistair will likely to support the  templar. Hence, either Connor or his mother will die in order to revive Arl Eamon. I don't mean to belittle Alistair but  I am well aware of his capability. Sten is better warrior than Alistair. Alistair has better defense and has Templar skill but he lack of HP for melee character.. Among my companions, Alistair is the easiest one to go down in combat.  Which is why I prefer to have Sten or Shale to guard the gate 
 

Sepewrath wrote...
Nothing changes.

Everything changes. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:17 .

[Oopsieoops]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well actually I said all Hawkes are left out. The Landsmeet would end in a duel, in which all Alistair has to do is win, same exact outcome as with the PC Warden. And I guess you meant Ferelden's survival, because Thedas would have survived if Ferelden was destroyed. Alistair as a Warden could go through the treaties and get the exact same influence the Warden got, with the added bonus of his bloodline. Nothing changes.

OdanUrr wrote...
It changes. Without the Warden in Ostagar, every other Warden dies.

All the Wardens die with the Warden there. Alistair would have been in the tower, Flemeth saves him and the story continues

That's not a proper comparison at all, if you're going to remove Hawke's siblings you should remove Alistair as well. Otherwise you're comparing oranges to apples here. If you're saying that the Warden him/herself was irrelevant because Alistair could fit just as well in the shoes, then you should allow for someone to fill Hawke's shoes as well. If there's no one to fill Hawke's role, of course the story is going to play out completely different.; just as it would if there were nobody to fill the Warden's role.

[Oopsieoops]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

No he won't. The Dallish and The dwarves will not come to aid because Alistair lack of skill to solve their problem. Alistair skill is only basic templar/warrior with no support from Morrigan. ( Alistair refuse to bring along Morrigan at Flemeth Hut. )  He lack of PC's cunning to solve problem which was designed for PC..
With that in mind, he will be slained by the Golems at Deep Road. The mage at the Circle will certainly face annulment since Alistair will likely to support the  templar. Hence, either Connor or his mother will die in order to revive Arl Eamon. I don't mean to belittle Alistair but  I am well aware of his capability. Sten is better warrior than Alistair. Alistair has better defense and has Templar skill but he lack of HP for melee character.. Among my companions, Alistair is the easiest one to go down in combat.  Which is why I prefer to have Sten or Shale to guard the gate

According to Darkspawn Chronicles Alistair would have: kept the anvil; killed the elves and sided with the werewolves; brought along only Morrigan (which means he also make the baby with her), Leliana and the dog; sided with the mages; killed Loghain and was crowned king; not killed Howe. He would have essentially made it all he way through the final battle, and only losing to the DS Vanguard. Incidentally he couldn't find the ashes so Eamon died.

Modifié par Oopsieoops, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:38 .

[csfteeeer]

Oopsieoops wrote...

According to Darkspawn Chronicles Alistair would have: kept the anvil; killed the elves and sided with the werewolves; brought along only Morrigan (which means he also make the baby with her), Leliana and the dog; sided with the mages; killed Loghain and was crowned king; not killed Howe. He would have essentially made it all he way through the final battle, and only losing to the DS Vanguard. Incidentally he couldn't find the ashes so Eamon died.

Don't tell me you actually take that stupid **** seriously, it's clear that whoever made it, didn't.

and even if that was the case, Alistair would have failed, still making the warden essential.

[Oopsieoops]

csfteeeer wrote...

Oopsieoops wrote...

According to Darkspawn Chronicles Alistair would have: kept the anvil; killed the elves and sided with the werewolves; brought along only Morrigan (which means he also make the baby with her), Leliana and the dog; sided with the mages; killed Loghain and was crowned king; not killed Howe. He would have essentially made it all he way through the final battle, and only losing to the DS Vanguard. Incidentally he couldn't find the ashes so Eamon died.

Don't tell me you actually take that stupid **** seriously, it's clear that whoever made it, didn't.

and even if that was the case, Alistair would have failed, still making the warden essential.

It was made by BW, so for me it has more credibility than what-if fanfics. Also I don't know why you're assuming I'm arguing against nor for the Warden being essential or not, I was merely arguing against the points he made. I actually agree that the Warden is essential, but for different reasons.

[Zanallen]

Filament wrote...

It's not exactly canon, no, for instance Herren is not a desire demon outside of DC.

How do you know?

[Oopsieoops]

Filament wrote...

It's not exactly canon, no, for instance Herren is not a desire demon outside of DC.

Actually, according to Gaider that only means he was possessed in that timeline and wasn't in the cannon one. Doesn't mean that's not what would have happened had the Warden died.

[csfteeeer]

Oopsieoops wrote...
It was made by BW, so for me it has more credibility than what-if fanfics. Also I don't know why you're assuming I'm arguing against nor for the Warden being essential or not, I was merely arguing against the points he made. I actually agree that the Warden is essential, but for different reasons.

i'm not assuming anything, i just don't think you should that DLC seriously, because to me, it seemed like they didn't even cared and just threw random stuff into it to make a DLC.

that's fine, but if they're not gonna take it seriously, then why should i?

[Zanallen]

Damn you Gaider!

But really, the warden is just one man. Alistair is fully capable of doing everything the PC does. He might whine incessantly about having to do it, but he is capable of it.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Oopsieoops wrote...
According to Darkspawn Chronicles Alistair would have: kept the anvil; killed the elves and sided with the werewolves; brought along only Morrigan (which means he also make the baby with her), Leliana and the dog; sided with the mages; killed Loghain and was crowned king; not killed Howe. He would have essentially made it all he way through the final battle, and only losing to the DS Vanguard. Incidentally he couldn't find the ashes so Eamon died.

1. According to Origins, Alistair did not approve to bring Morrigan along.
2. Alistair can only make baby with Morrigan if Female Warden exist
3. The dog survive Highever only if Cousland exist. Or if Amell, Mahariel or Aueducan manage to find yellow flower to heal the dog at Ostagar. Otherwise, the dog dies.
4. If Eamon dies, how can Alistair gain control of Ferelden army when Loghain is still in power? Landsmeet would certainly doesn't exist because it's was Eamon who summon the Landsmeet.

I am sorry but DLC Darkspawn Chronicles contradict with Origins main plots. I can only assume it was just fictionous setting from Darkspawn point of view, "what if" the PC doesn't exist. If anything else, it only proved  that Ferelden will be destroyed. DS Vanguard was not acknowledged by any other parts of Origins. Because if it does then we wouldn't be hearing Varric telling about Hero of Ferelden one year after Hawke reach Kirkwall. Or Orlesian Warden Commander from Awakening will have to deal with it first before the brood mother. 

[csfteeeer]

Zanallen wrote...

Damn you Gaider!

But really, the warden is just one man. Alistair is fully capable of doing everything the PC does. He might whine incessantly about having to do it, but he is capable of it.

Capable?
Perhaps, who knows, even if DC was to be taken Seriously, we didn't saw how he did it, so for all we know, Tinker Bell magically appeared in front of him, and teletransported him into the future.

but even if he is capable, would he be Willing to?
Theres no warden to harden him, so nothing happens there.
and he doesn't exactly have talking skills.

[seraphymon]

He is capable physically but emotionally i dont think he can handle it without the support of the warden, or at least someones influence over the journey.

[Sabariel]

I don't particularly care for Hawke, but I think that is mostly the fault of the story.

[Oopsieoops]

1. According to Origins, Alistair did not approve to bring Morrigan along.

Doesn't mean he couldn't be convinced to though.

2. Alistair can only make baby with Morrigan if Female Warden exist

No, a male Warden can convince Alistair to do it as well. At any rate, had there no Warden at all Morrigan would try to convince Alistair directly.

3. The dog survive Highever only if Cousland exist. Or if Amell, Mahariel or Aueducan manage to find yellow flower to heal the dog at Ostagar. Otherwise, the dog dies.

The Warden could have been around to save the dog and only as s/he died on the Joining; at any rate, nothing prevents Alistair from doing it himself.

4. If Eamon dies, how can Alistair gain control of Ferelden army when Loghain is still in power? Landsmeet would certainly doesn't exist because it's was Eamon who summon the Landsmeet.

He could have convinced some other noble to call the Landsmeet. For instance Teagan, and maybe even struck some sort of alliance with Howe, seeing as he's still alive. Doesn't have to be Eamon.

I am sorry but DLC Darkspawn Chronicles contradict with Origins main plots.

No, it diverges; that's different from contradicting. It shows what would have happened had the Warden died during the Joining. Now one may simply decide to ignore it, but that's what would have happened according to BW.

csfteeeer wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Damn you Gaider!

But really, the warden is just one man. Alistair is fully capable of doing everything the PC does. He might whine incessantly about having to do it, but he is capable of it.

Capable?
Perhaps, who knows, even if DC was to be taken Seriously, we didn't saw how he did it, so for all we know, Tinker Bell magically appeared in front of him, and teletransported him into the future.

but even if he is capable, would he be Willing to?
Theres no warden to harden him, so nothing happens there.
and he doesn't exactly have talking skills.

I think that if he suddenly found himself alone and forced to make the decision by himself he would have 'manned up' so to speak. He's certainly capable of doing so. In a way the Warden held him back since they gave him an excuse to avoid making decisions by hiding behind him/her.

Modifié par Oopsieoops, 26 septembre 2011 - 05:39 .

[RagingCyclone]

@Sacred Fantasy--Alistair can do the DR with Morrigan during a male warden PT. I do that every time (my warden feels guilty about cheating on Leliana, so Alistair does the deed:devil:)

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 26 septembre 2011 - 05:39 .

[vallore]

Sepewrath wrote...

Because Hawke's motivations for doing what happens at the end of Act 1, which is the catalyst for the rest of the story; is the family, so Carver and Bethany would have those same motivations. To express the idea of the effect that Hawke has on the story, all things Hawke have to removed. That means none of them are there, there are no Hawkes in the story.

Now apply that to Origins, remove everything related to the PC Warden. Start in Ostagar and play the story out in your head, don't even think about playing as any character. Just play the story out in your head, with that one character missing and see if it changes.

Without the Warden, Ferelden mostly likely fall. There is no one else to pick up the treaties and gather the armies. Alistair wasn’t a man to do it on his own and he knew it.

Without Hawke, frankly I don’t see much difference. As I see it, the conflict between chantry and mages was already brewing, Origins and specially Awakening strongly hint at that.

Issues like a certain expedition to a certain place would still likely occur, by Bartrand initiative. (He was too greedy to let it pass). And as for Meridith she would still be Meridith.

Modifié par vallore, 26 septembre 2011 - 06:00 .