412 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

sponge56 wrote...

What difference does your sexuality have to the discussion?

I'm just saying I like large, exposed boobies as much as the "typical male."  So I'm not just going all psycho, man-hating feminist here.  Sexy ladies = good.  Realisitc unique, and interesting sexy ladies = better.  Oversaturation with unrealistic and samey sexy ladies = bad.

There are sooooo many different kinds of hot other than perfect hair/makeup/body with a tight/exposing out.  Think of how different the women in Mass Effect are from one another.  Tali manages to pull of tough, nerdy, and girly all at once, and is beautiful even though she has chicken feet and no face.  Jack is bald, shirtless, and psychotic, yet she has a lot of fans that find her absolutely gorgeous.  Ash made a name for herself storming around in 200-pound pink armor while blurting out her often unsavory opinions, and people love her for it.

You can get someone to fall in love with a female character without resorting to blatant T&A, and when you do, you get points for being smart and deep and creative and stuff.  It's good for your reputation, and a good reputation = more sales.

GOW has giant hulking rugby players as characters, but men don't get worked up over it.

Gears makes its fame by indulging in stereotypes and making no apologies for it.  It's the proper kind of game to pull that sort of thing off -- everyone admits it's ridiculous, but it's fun, and it's not supposed to be deep.  Mass Effect is different: it invites exploration, thought, and and reconsidering of one's own perceptions by its very nature.

And how, in any way was miranda's looks treated more importantly than her character.  I loved her character but never romanced her, and suggesting so is almost suggesting that attractive people must therefore be uniteresting.

I think you missed the point.  Attractive people have the same wide variety of personalities as the fugly ones and I never implied that they didn't.  My point is that more attention was paid to Miri's looks than was her character; a completely serious scene that was supposed to bring in all sorts of depth and drama would come up, but SUDDENLY BUTTSHOT.  It's like the game didn't want you to get to know her or see her for more than her body, resulting in a very uncomfortable disconnect.  In addition, her personality didn't exactly mesh with how she dressed -- why does such a stong, practical, and ruthlessly intelligent woman dress like a hooker?  You can cry subversion of first impressions if you want, but a huge part of character presentation in videogames is how she/he/it looks.

Let's take a second to examine how much each squadmate is quite literally wearing his/her personality by using Jack as an example:

Her baldness/toplessness combines edginess and shock value -- she doesn't want people to get to know her, so she intentionally scares them away.  It also conveys a sort of "f*ck you, I'll do what I want" attitude.  The bottom half of her outfit, a prison uniform with combat boots, reinforces the same tough/f*ck you sensibility while giving a nod to the punk culture that partially inspired her.  She is covered in tattoos, and tattoos both tell a story and imply that the character in question has a lot of memories they won't be letting go of.  They also serve to hide her medical scars, hinting that she hates what Cerberus has turned her into, but they show through and she can never fully get rid of them, just as the transformation into a dangerous and super-powered psychopath cannot be undone.  And yet, she's petite with a beautiful face, implying that, inside, she's still a "scared little girl."

So, basically every aspect of Jack's appearance says something about who she is.  Now what does Miranda's outfit say about her?

And they have every excuse to, its their creation and they can do whatever they want with it.

However, they are committed to producing high-quality work and have a reputation for the depth of their games and the thought that goes into them.  Scantily clad supermodels is counter-productive to that reputation.  Additionally, it clashes with the progressive attitude towards gender roles they're trying to convey through FemShep and the inclusion of s/s romance.  They can make whatever decisions they want, but treating Ashley like Miranda (if they choose to do so) is a bad one.

[AdmiralCheez]

sponge56 wrote...

I watched about 6 minuets, her voice irritated me.  It was quite interesting though

It has subtitles.  You can turn the sound off.

Seriously, you need to watch the whole thing to understand the frustration a lot of people feel with the mass media.

[alex90c]

happy_daiz wrote...

alex90c wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

Uh-uh, not me. Jacob is smexy.  Although admittedly, I did try all the romances. 

Edit: Although I must admit, despite Jacob's smokin' hot body (ignoring his awful teeth), his healthy personality is what attracted me more to him, ultimately. I didn't have to play Ms. Fixit. Does my femShep ALWAYS have to be the freakin' hero?

Sneaking in to the captains' quarters ...

Better than spillin' drinks on the Citadel, that's for sure. Mmmpf. 

I guess I should have explained that better; I was referring to Jacob's emotionally healthy personality. 

I like to think Liara has a fairly healthy personality ...

[eye basher]

I don't know why people complain about armor that's just for the games story wise when your barrier drops you get turned into swiss cheese no matter if your wearing a g-string or heavy armor.

[AdmiralCheez]

eye basher wrote...

I don't know why people complain about armor that's just for the games story wise when your barrier drops you get turned into swiss cheese no matter if your wearing a g-string or heavy armor.

You are totally not reading anything I say, are you?

HINT: Try that wall of text up there or the video I linked to.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 23 septembre 2011 - 06:24 .

[happy_daiz]

alex90c wrote...

I like to think Liara has a fairly healthy personality ... 

You don't say. 

[eye basher]

but me not like wall of text is to big! T_T

[Iakus]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

There are sooooo many different kinds of hot other than perfect hair/makeup/body with a tight/exposing out.  Think of how different the women in Mass Effect are from one another.  Tali manages to pull of tough, nerdy, and girly all at once, and is beautiful even though she has chicken feet and no face.  Jack is bald, shirtless, and psychotic, yet she has a lot of fans that find her absolutely gorgeous.  Ash made a name for herself storming around in 200-pound pink armor while blurting out her often unsavory opinions, and people love her for it.

You can get someone to fall in love with a female character without resorting to blatant T&A, and when you do, you get points for being smart and deep and creative and stuff.  It's good for your reputation, and a good reputation = more sales.

As a guy I fully endorse this statement.  Bolded in particular.

Well except I found Jack painfully thin for my taste, but her face and eyes were quite pretty.

[alex90c]

happy_daiz wrote...

alex90c wrote...

I like to think Liara has a fairly healthy personality ... 

You don't say. 

my LI > your LI

I guarantee you I'm definitely not biased.

[slimgrin]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

There are sooooo many different kinds of hot other than perfect hair/makeup/body with a tight/exposing out.  Think of how different the women in Mass Effect are from one another.  Tali manages to pull of tough, nerdy, and girly all at once, and is beautiful even though she has chicken feet and no face.  Jack is bald, shirtless, and psychotic, yet she has a lot of fans that find her absolutely gorgeous.  Ash made a name for herself storming around in 200-pound pink armor while blurting out her often unsavory opinions, and people love her for it.

You can get someone to fall in love with a female character without resorting to blatant T&A, and when you do, you get points for being smart and deep and creative and stuff.  It's good for your reputation, and a good reputation = more sales.

Thats all fine and dandy, but try mentioning other games with different aesthetics, like Street fighter or The Witcher, and people here will start getting their panties in a bundle.

[AdmiralCheez]

eye basher wrote...

but me not like wall of text is to big! T_T

Then it's your own damn fault you don't get what all the fuss is about.  If you complain about not understanding someone's reasoning, but make no effort to actually understand it, you are both willingly ignorant and a hypocrite.

It's kind of like when Fox News did that piece about understanding why atheists are atheists.  But did they talk to a bunch of atheists and examine their reasoning?  No, they called in a priest and then spent the rest of the interview giggling over those silly atheists.  They even went as far to call atheism (specifically, publishing books on atheism) a "fad."  You can imagine how pissed I was about it, especially since I lot of people I love and respect for their intelligence (like my father) rely on them for information and "fair and balanced" reporting/discussion.

Your transgression is far more innocent and forgivable than what Fox did, but it's that kind of thinking that leads to misunderstanding, which leads to stereotyping, which leads to massive cultural rifts that end in (often violent) disaster.

It takes a helluva lot of effort to understand someone that is different from you (especially one you don't agree with), but ultimately it's worth it, and in fact it's vital if you want to move yourself and your perceptions any way other than backwards.

[AdmiralCheez]

slimgrin wrote...

Thats all fine and dandy, but try mentioning other games with different aesthetics, like Street fighter or The Witcher, and people here will start getting their panties in a bundle.

I only get up in a tizzy over The Witcher (2) because the sex in it felt empty and looked like soft porn.  In other words, moaning and shaking bare ****** about.  I felt no arousal, nor did I feel disgust.  In fact, I could barely manage a facepalm.

What's wrong with Street Fighter?  Other than me being really bad at arcade-style fighter games.

You know what?  Call me a hypocrite, but I really enjoy playing the Soul Calibur games.  I fully realize it's in the Big Bouncing Boobies category, but it's fun and it's supposed to be over-the-top.  Granted, I'd like it much better if it weren't a BBB game, and I would love to see an arcade fighter that deviated from that sort of thing, but I think it's the wrong medium to press the issue.  Mass Effect, however?  Yeah, yeah I'm gonna get a little pissed.

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

I think its a better look, the model for Ashley was well done in the original though, military woman look.

[slimgrin]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Thats all fine and dandy, but try mentioning other games with different aesthetics, like Street fighter or The Witcher, and people here will start getting their panties in a bundle.

I only get up in a tizzy over The Witcher (2) because the sex in it felt empty and looked like soft porn.  In other words, moaning and shaking bare ****** about.  I felt no arousal, nor did I feel disgust.  In fact, I could barely manage a facepalm.

What's wrong with Street Fighter?  Other than me being really bad at arcade-style fighter games.

You know what?  Call me a hypocrite, but I really enjoy playing the Soul Calibur games.  I fully realize it's in the Big Bouncing Boobies category, but it's fun and it's supposed to be over-the-top.  Granted, I'd like it much better if it weren't a BBB game, and I would love to see an arcade fighter that deviated from that sort of thing, but I think it's the wrong medium to press the issue.  Mass Effect, however?  Yeah, yeah I'm gonna get a little pissed.

I admire both Street fighter and The Witcher for taking a decidedly candid approach to depicting the female figure, and well, sexiness in general. What's with Street Fighter? Sakura, Mokoto, Ibuki, Karin all look 14-16, and many western viewers don't really get the influence behind their design, so they slap the sexism/kiddie porn tag on them. Which personally I think is a mistake.

Basically all I'm saying is you're on a slippery slope here.

Modifié par slimgrin, 23 septembre 2011 - 06:55 .

[sponge56]

AdmiralCheez wrote...


I'm just saying I like large, exposed boobies as much as the "typical male."  So I'm not just going all psycho, man-hating feminist here.  Sexy ladies = good.  Realisitc unique, and interesting sexy ladies = better.  Oversaturation with unrealistic and samey sexy ladies = bad.

I wouldn't label Ashley into this category though.  Even with the hair she hasnt been turned into a hooker

There are sooooo many different kinds of hot other than perfect hair/makeup/body with a tight/exposing out.  Think of how different the women in Mass Effect are from one another.  Tali manages to pull of tough, nerdy, and girly all at once, and is beautiful even though she has chicken feet and no face.  Jack is bald, shirtless, and psychotic, yet she has a lot of fans that find her absolutely gorgeous.  Ash made a name for herself storming around in 200-pound pink armor while blurting out her often unsavory opinions, and people love her for it.

You can get someone to fall in love with a female character without resorting to blatant T&A, and when you do, you get points for being smart and deep and creative and stuff.  It's good for your reputation, and a good reputation = more sales.

Fair enuf, but theres what, two characters in Mass Effect 2 where this happens (Miranda and to some extent Samara).  Bioware obviously makes characters like you have listed above very well, so I don't neccesarily think its a problem that we have one or two who look like slappers- especially as beneath all the ****** there as interesting and as deep as the rest of them.

Gears makes its fame by indulging in stereotypes and making no apologies for it.  It's the proper kind of game to pull that sort of thing off -- everyone admits it's ridiculous, but it's fun, and it's not supposed to be deep.  Mass Effect is different: it invites exploration, thought, and and reconsidering of one's own perceptions by its very nature.

Good point I admit

  My point is that more attention was paid to Miri's looks than was her character; a completely serious scene that was supposed to bring in all sorts of depth and drama would come up, but SUDDENLY BUTTSHOT.  It's like the game didn't want you to get to know her or see her for more than her body, resulting in a very uncomfortable disconnect.  In addition, her personality didn't exactly mesh with how she dressed -- why does such a stong, practical, and ruthlessly intelligent woman dress like a hooker?  You can cry subversion of first impressions if you want, but a huge part of character presentation in videogames is how she/he/it looks.

But I dont believe they did pay more attention to her looks than to her character

[AdmiralCheez]

slimgrin wrote...

I admire both Street fighter and The Witcher for taking a decidedly candid approach to depicting the female figure, and well, sexiness in general. What's with Street Fighter? Sakura, Mokoto, Ibuki, Karin all look 14-16, and many western viewers don't really get the influence behind their design, so they slap the sexism/kiddie porn tag on them. Which personally I think is a mistake.

Basiclaly all I'm saying is you're on a slippery slope here.

Listen.  Games like The Witcher and Street Fighter are okay.  They're fun to play and worthy of appreciation in their own right.

But we need games that don't oversex everything, too.  We need games that take societal expectations of sex and gender and beat the hell out of them.  Mass Effect (3) has so much potential in this regard, and it needs to seize it and run with it.  Imagine what would happen to the gaming environment if next year's AAA title had not only a protagonist that behaved the same regardless of gender AND gay men that weren't sterotyped, but women that looked and acted like real women, too.  Imagine the kind of praise it would get, and imagine the developers that might follow suit.

And imagine all the men and women that are playing those games and start seeing realistic/deep characters and relationships.  Imagine the relief a girl might feel playing a game where all the women aren't there for T&A.  Imagine the delight a guy might feel in playing a game that doesn't act like he has the tastes and sensibilities of a horny teenage boy.  Imagine the critics who have dismissed gaming as a shallow medium that causes only brain-rot.

It'd be f*cking awesome.

[pmac_tk421]

I'm sorry, I didn't want to start a flame war when I made this topic.

[sponge56]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

I'm sorry, I didn't want to start a flame war when I made this topic.

See it as a debate, a flamewar is more insulting each other.  Im debating with cheese and vice versa, not telling her to **** off

[AdmiralCheez]

sponge56 wrote...

I wouldn't label Ashley into this category though.  Even with the hair she hasnt been turned into a hooker

Maybe not; we don't have enough information to make that call.  All I'm saying is it's a bad sign and a step backwards from where she was before.

Fair enuf, but theres what, two characters in Mass Effect 2 where this happens (Miranda and to some extent Samara).  Bioware obviously makes characters like you have listed above very well, so I don't neccesarily think its a problem that we have one or two who look like slappers- especially as beneath all the ****** there as interesting and as deep as the rest of them.

However, one of the strongest of those characters is at risk, and it might happen to others, too.

But I dont believe they did pay more attention to her looks than to her character

Her character development was constantly interrupted by her ass.  In addition, her appearance ran counter to that development.

[sponge56]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

However, one of the strongest of those characters is at risk, and it might happen to others, too.

And the sky might fall tomorrow.  Sorry, im trivilising what you said but I honestly don't believe that they would change Ashley's character.  The only character they actually ever changed was Liara, and they addressed that in LoTSB and provided a good reason for this change.  Ashley may even look different in Battle

Her character development was constantly interrupted by her ass.  In addition, her appearance ran counter to that development.

This may sounds ridiculous but I didn't notice the ass shots first time, I did on other playthroughs when I wasn't concentrating as hard.  Miranda has tonnes of fans on this forum and I bet not all of them are 15 year old kids with erections- she has plenty of well thought out charater development.  And doesn't that asari mercenary on her loyalty mission make a comment about how ****ty her outfit is?  Its not like Bioware arent aware of what they are doing.  Again, maybe having one charcter like that among many others who dont conform to the stereotype is not a bad thing

[slimgrin]

AdmiralCheez wrote...


But we need games that don't oversex everything, too. 

That's most titles. Most games are family freindly, sanitized, ready for kid consumption. Thousands of them. I would also argue there are shades of grey here. Triss Meriigold or Sakura are not blatant sex symbols, like say Ivy from Soul Caliber is. Again, this topic is more nuanced than you are giving it credit for.

You are calling for your own brand of 'proper', and I'm not on board. And BTW, some are Bi in Mass Effect, not Gay. Hardly pushing any boundaries there...

Modifié par slimgrin, 23 septembre 2011 - 07:21 .

[biowaregeek]

Ashly A.K.A Michelle Rodriguez lol

[AdmiralCheez]

sponge56 wrote...

And the sky might fall tomorrow.  Sorry, im trivilising what you said but I honestly don't believe that they would change Ashley's character.  The only character they actually ever changed was Liara, and they addressed that in LoTSB and provided a good reason for this change.  Ashley may even look different in Battle

And I hope you're right.  However, I also hope you understand the reasons for my concern.

This may sounds ridiculous but I didn't notice the ass shots first time, I did on other playthroughs when I wasn't concentrating as hard.  Miranda has tonnes of fans on this forum and I bet not all of them are 15 year old kids with erections- she has plenty of well thought out charater development.  And doesn't that asari mercenary on her loyalty mission make a comment about how ****ty her outfit is?  Its not like Bioware arent aware of what they are doing.  Again, maybe having one charcter like that among many others who dont conform to the stereotype is not a bad thing

And it's not.  But we don't need another Miranda, and you have to admit her characterization could have been handled better.  She's actually one of the characters I look forward to seeing in ME3 because I want to see more development from her, without Dat Ass.  I want to see the game embrace all the things that are great about her -- her top-rate smarts and ability, her unrivaled devotion to whatever cause she undertakes, and even her beauty.  I want to see what happens when she accepts what she is and is okay with it, when she fully embraces that even though she's super-human, she's still human.  I want to see her operate on her own terms, outside of Cerberus.  She has the potential to be unstoppable, and her ice-queeny, no-room-for-failure attitude coupled with her underlying self-doubt and genuine passion for what she fights for make her a believable character that is easy to respect and love.

A strong, beautiful, ruthlessly intelligent woman is incredibly sexy by default.  You don't need to put her in a skintight jumpsuit to get people to appreciate her.  Let's not cheapen our characters with that sort of thing, hm?