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[Sister Goldring]

Hi,

I was just surfing a bit and came across this on the DA Wiki.  I couldn't see that it had been posted here earlier so I thought I'd include the link for anyone interested.

http://dragonage.wik...ia_to_a_Fangirl

Isn't he a sweetie. 

[TEWR]

now this was interesting:

Mages in Kirkwall - if he could change one story portion of DA2, he would have liked to write in more moderate mages, ones that weren’t possessed, didn’t dabble in blood magic, etc.

[thats1evildude]

skylinepigeon wrote...

We’ve got this one really wrong, guys. The webseries? Apparently Felicia Day’s idea, and it came about while the DLC was being planned. She got to talk to Gaider about canon questions, and he was expecting really basic ones. Instead, she asked lots of complicated things about Seheron, Qunari culture, etc. So she’s not lying when she says she’s a huge fan. Also, he called it Mask of the Defender (I think, some D word), so that was one of several alternate titles. He says he likes it better than Legacy.

*Raises eyebrow* 

Fascinating.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 septembre 2011 - 04:50 .

[Urzon]

thats1evildude wrote...

skylinepigeon wrote...

We’ve got this one really wrong, guys. The webseries? Apparently Felicia Day’s idea, and it came about while the DLC was being planned. She got to talk to Gaider about canon questions, and he was expecting really basic ones. Instead, she asked lots of complicated things about Seheron, Qunari culture, etc. So she’s not lying when she says she’s a huge fan. Also, he called it Mask of the Defender (I think, some D word), so that was one of several alternate titles. He says he likes it better than Legacy.

*Raises eyebrow* 

Fascinating.

Felicia Day..... Pro-Qunari?

Or just a fan of the Arishok's horns?

[Satyricon331]

Lastly, Gaider implied that spirits and demons are, by nature, different, something which I was never quite clear on. They are not exactly the same thing, despite what Merrill and others would have you believe.

Wow, that's really big! There's a lot to digest here...

[TEWR]

Lastly, Gaider implied that spirits and demons are, by nature, different, something which I was never quite clear on. They are not exactly the same thing, despite what Merrill and others would have you believe.

Addressing this specific point, Merrill never actually calls them the same thing or claims anything of the sort. She just says that they're all dangerous. She's obviously keen to the fact that there are distinctions to be made and that they are by nature different, but that doesn't mean only one is dangerous.

[dragonflight288]

A spirit of any virtue is dangerous outside of the Fade because they take their virtue to extremes. They see only that virtue. Justice is cold, hard, and swift. Mercy is loving and forgiving...so naturally every criminal will get off the hook and get right back to what they do. Patience takes a great deal of time, and sometimes swift action is required. Valor gets people killed.

All are virtues.

Aristotle said the golden mean that makes up any virtue the the perfect balance between two vices. Courage for example, dependent entirely on the situation, lies between cowardice and recklessness. If you run from the enemy, you are liable to get an arrow in your back. If you leap out of the trenches and charge the enemy in a fortified position long-before you are ready...that's hardly any better.

Spirits don't have that temperance or balance. It's the single aspect or virtue taken to an extreme.

[Esbatty]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Lastly, Gaider implied that spirits and demons are, by nature, different, something which I was never quite clear on. They are not exactly the same thing, despite what Merrill and others would have you believe.

Wow, that's really big! There's a lot to digest here...

Thats what she said!

[Foolsfolly]

Cullen - I asked about Cullen’s backstory, but Gaider really didn’t have much to say other than “he’s a native Fereldan.” Jordan, his friend with him on the trip, didn’t even know who I was talking about, and Gaider seemed a little surprised when I told him how much the fandom has latched onto him. I really think he’s got no clue how much we all love him!

I have no idea how much the fandom cares about Cullen and I don't care. I like Cullen because he's had terrible experiences with mages before and he still had a calm and level head eventually standing against Meredith. Which, in my book, makes him a hero. I wish he'd have acted sooner but it was a tough position for the guy to be in.

Mark of the Assassin - We’ve got this one really wrong, guys. The webseries? Apparently Felicia Day’s idea, and it came about while the DLC was being planned. She got to talk to Gaider about canon questions, and he was expecting really basic ones. Instead, she asked lots of complicated things about Seheron, Qunari culture, etc. So she’s not lying when she says she’s a huge fan. Also, he called it Mask of the Defender (I think, some D word), so that was one of several alternate titles. He says he likes it better than Legacy.

Cool! I'm excited for Mark of the Assassin. Everything I heard about it makes me happy. It sounds like a blast.

Didn’t talk too much about Legacy because I haven’t played it yet (guh, fire!). He said they were very happy with fan feedback, although they were surprised by the low critical reviews and guessed it had to do with people’s DA2 problems. Said I would love it since I love Carver.

I downloaded and finished it yesterday. Not a bad thing. Loved the dungeon crawling, loved the combat, loved the puzzles. I know there's more dialogue I didn't hear but I liked what I did hear. I loved Carver on the mission. Finished it in Act 2 and got a nice Carver, Mom Hawke, and Hawke bit at the end. It was nice. A good solid DLC.

I had no idea the critical reviews for it were low. I guess it's because it's kind of disconnected from everything and the story is linear and simple. But I liked it because of that, in a way. And it has huge implications for DA3 or future DA2 DLC.

Templars in Kirkwall - Ever wonder why Mage Hawke, or Bethany, doesn’t get much trouble during the first year in Kirkwall? Originally there was supposed to be a plot about the Templars pursuing Hawke or Bethany, but it was cut. This pursuit by the templars would have been part of the impetus to go into the Deep Roads; they needed to leave town to escape.

That would have been cool. And it would have set up an interesting dilemma for first time players. Bethany's being hunted by Templars, Mom wants her to stay because she's worried...but Templars are on her heels. You bring her thinking you're saving her... That would have been cool.

Mages in Kirkwall - if he could change one story portion of DA2, he would have liked to write in more moderate mages, ones that weren’t possessed, didn’t dabble in blood magic, etc.

Who wouldn't? I was actually surprised one the DLCs hasn't had more moderate mages in them.

I got the impression DA3 (which hasn’t been announced yet, officially) is still in the VERY EARLY STAGES and not a lot has been decided yet. At all.

Tevinter and Qunari, Mr. Gaider. I can't get enough of them. I like them so much. I also enjoy looking at the Wardens from the outside. They're vastly more interesting when they're not telling us things and they're these selfish mysterious people who occasionally save the world from monsters most people didn't believe still existed ten years ago.

He doesn’t really understand characterizing Sebastian as a fanatic.

Neither do I. He's actually the only Chantry person in the entire game who lays the blame of the Chantry explosion directly on the person who is to blame. He doesn't advocate slaughtering the Circle. He just wants Anders to pay for his heinous crime. My only dislike with Sebastian is that I like Rivaling him and I have to juggle him around so I never do anything nice in his presence and get Friendship points.

Anders - I asked my Anders/Justice separation question! Gaider answered that if Anders wanted to do it, the two probably could be separated, very similarly to the way that Connor and the demon were separated in DA:O.

Boosh! I knew it.

Starkhaven - the Scottish accents were suggested by the lady that picks voice actors. We may see more people from Starkhaven in the future, and it’s a possibility we could go there, but it’s unlikely because Mike Laidlaw has really expressed an interest to get out of the Free Marches and get into new locations

I understand Laidlaw's interest.

Cool bits of information.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lastly, Gaider implied that spirits and demons are, by nature, different, something which I was never quite clear on. They are not exactly the same thing, despite what Merrill and others would have you believe.

Addressing this specific point, Merrill never actually calls them the same thing or claims anything of the sort. She just says that they're all dangerous. She's obviously keen to the fact that there are distinctions to be made and that they are by nature different, but that doesn't mean only one is dangerous.

* Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits?
* Merrill: We’ve never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods.
* Merrill: It is another realm, another people's home. No different or more foreign than, say, Orzammar.
* Anders: But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins—
* Merrill: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human.
* Merrill: More or less...

Seems like she's treating demons as types of spirits here.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 23 septembre 2011 - 05:47 .

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lastly, Gaider implied that spirits and demons are, by nature, different, something which I was never quite clear on. They are not exactly the same thing, despite what Merrill and others would have you believe.

Addressing this specific point, Merrill never actually calls them the same thing or claims anything of the sort. She just says that they're all dangerous. She's obviously keen to the fact that there are distinctions to be made and that they are by nature different, but that doesn't mean only one is dangerous.

* Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits?
* Merrill: We’ve never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods.
* Merrill: It is another realm, another people's home. No different or more foreign than, say, Orzammar.
* Anders: But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins—
* Merrill: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human.
* Merrill: More or less...

Seems like she's treating demons as types of spirits here.

How could you forget the Varric line?

Anyway, not really. It's the home of demons and spirits. It's not the home of the people of Thedas. That's what she's saying.

Plus David Gaider said that a demon is a type of spirit that feeds off of base emotions. He said that they are indeed a type of spirit.

...I'm having a bit of a blank spot on what I want to say....

[Anyroad2]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Aristotle said the golden mean that makes up any virtue the the perfect balance between two vices. Courage for example, dependent entirely on the situation, lies between cowardice and recklessness. If you run from the enemy, you are liable to get an arrow in your back. If you leap out of the trenches and charge the enemy in a fortified position long-before you are ready...that's hardly any better.

Mhm. Been reading Nicomachean Ethics lately. Good stuff.

Another thing that I'm sure played into the whole Justice/Vengeance thing was that in Awakening, you can kind of start to see Justice becoming more demon-like. He starts understanding why demons want to live in the realm of mortals, and why they covet what mortals have... and he starts to do the same, especially when it comes to the relationship that Aura and Kristoff had.

At least... thats what I thought.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 23 septembre 2011 - 06:03 .

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lastly, Gaider implied that spirits and demons are, by nature, different, something which I was never quite clear on. They are not exactly the same thing, despite what Merrill and others would have you believe.

Addressing this specific point, Merrill never actually calls them the same thing or claims anything of the sort. She just says that they're all dangerous. She's obviously keen to the fact that there are distinctions to be made and that they are by nature different, but that doesn't mean only one is dangerous.

* Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits?
* Merrill: We’ve never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods.
* Merrill: It is another realm, another people's home. No different or more foreign than, say, Orzammar.
* Anders: But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins—
* Merrill: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human.
* Merrill: More or less...

Seems like she's treating demons as types of spirits here.

How could you forget the Varric line?

Anyway, not really. It's the home of demons and spirits. It's not the home of the people of Thedas. That's what she's saying.

Plus David Gaider said that a demon is a type of spirit that feeds off of base emotions. He said that they are indeed a type of spirit.

...I'm having a bit of a blank spot on what I want to say....

You appear to be ignoring the premise of the conversation. Anders is asking whether the Dalish recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits. Not whether the gods or the spirits or the demons live in the Fade. I'm pretty sure that Merrill doesn't ever actually use the term 'demon' in the game. She always refers to them as spirits, even if they are identified as demons.

I'm not arguing about the nature of demons and spirits. That's something we lack any real hard evidence for. I'm just saying that, contrary to what you said, Merrill *does* consider demons to be the same as spirits. Just different spirits, like there are different humans. More or less.

[TEWR]

Anyroad2 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Aristotle said the golden mean that makes up any virtue the the perfect balance between two vices. Courage for example, dependent entirely on the situation, lies between cowardice and recklessness. If you run from the enemy, you are liable to get an arrow in your back. If you leap out of the trenches and charge the enemy in a fortified position long-before you are ready...that's hardly any better.

Mhm. Been reading Nicomachean Ethics lately. Good stuff.

Another thing that I'm sure played into the whole Justice/Vengeance thing was that in Awakening, you can kind of start to see Justice becoming more demon-like. He starts understanding why demons want to live in the realm of mortals, and why they covet what mortals have... and he starts to do the same, especially when it comes to the relationship that Aura and Kristoff had.

I'd say that's both becoming demon-like somewhat and having an evolution into understanding what it means to be human (for me, it's more of the latter). What a demon wants, a demon forcibly takes. Justice on the other hand just wants something similar to what Kristoff and Aura had, but he isn't taking it forcibly.

It's open to interpretation of course, and could definitely be seen as him becoming more demon-like. But I don't even see Justice/Vengeance as a demon like Audacity or Caress. Rather, I see him as the darker side of the virtue of Justice. I've often said that justice and vengeance are simply two sides of the same coin, with one side being a darker shade.

I don't even know what to make of Justice in DAII. Personally, I see him as both a spirit and demon intertwined as one new type of being.

I'm hoping that he'll evolve and become a more human-like entity rather than a Fade-entity. I'm hoping that he'll understand what it means to be human and to not take virtues to the extreme anymore (something he started to understand if you take him to Amaranthine and say you need to burn it).

[Foolsfolly]

I don't even know what to make of Justice in DAII. Personally, I see him as both a spirit and demon intertwined as one new type of being.

I don't think Justice exists anymore, dude. I think Anders corrupted Justice into Vengeance.

... I have no idea what's happened to Vengeance if you kill Anders or --- possibly worse --- what happens to it if it's allowed to continue to be inside Anders.

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I don't even know what to make of Justice in DAII. Personally, I see him as both a spirit and demon intertwined as one new type of being.

I don't think Justice exists anymore, dude. I think Anders corrupted Justice into Vengeance.

... I have no idea what's happened to Vengeance if you kill Anders or --- possibly worse --- what happens to it if it's allowed to continue to be inside Anders.

I'm not so sure about that. A demon is a self-serving entity that wants to do evil things for its own amusement. Justice or Vengeance or whatever the hell he is now is trying to do something noble. He's not looking to do something for his own gain.

@hoorayforicecream: I'm trying to piece together what I want to say, so I won't be immediately responding to your comment just yet.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 septembre 2011 - 06:19 .

[Anyroad2]

Right. He didnt take anything by force when he was still inhabiting Kristoffs Corpse... however, when he merged with Anders he (Justice) became tainted by Anders human emotions. Humans want and covet things, and many of them take them by force. Anders is clearly no exception. Were also told that Spirits are the Makers First Children. The Makers creations (ie Golden City) seem to react terribly to human-y things.

In the Fade, I don't believe Spirits have the want for anything other than what their virtue demands.

[mousestalker]

If y'all want to argue with Mr Gaider about the game lore, that's your prerogative, but be aware that he is more likely to prevail than you are. His ideas about back story and such can only be overcome by the consensus of his fellow Bioware employees. For yours to prevail, you pretty much have to convince either him or his bosses.

[WhiteKnyght]

"I THINK THAT IS IT. Besides the bit where we talked about X-Men, specifically the potential of a Magneto/Professor X/Fenris crossover slash story. Specifically Magneto/Fenris, since, you know, lyrium is a metal so magneto can do whatever the hell he wants with Fenris. Gaider was somewhat dubious about this because he imagines lyrium like mercury, and can Magneto control mercury? Jordan and I assured him that this is fanfiction, an thus anything goes. Of course it’s possible. And now I need someone to write that story immediately, yep. "

Bwahahahahahahaha that would be so epic. In a lot of ways Magneto would sympathize with mages IMO. Mutants are treated very similarly to mages. This would be like Magneto getting a taste of what's to come for his kind and more motivation to continue his plans.

Also I can understand how lyrium could be related to mercury. It's a toxic liquid metal that in ancient times was believed to be a source of immortality and was often used in the ancient practice of alchemy.

[Bryy_Miller]

Really interesting stuff.

[Indoctrination]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I have no idea how much the fandom cares about Cullen and I don't care. I like Cullen because he's had terrible experiences with mages before and he still had a calm and level head eventually standing against Meredith. Which, in my book, makes him a hero. I wish he'd have acted sooner but it was a tough position for the guy to be in.

What's up with this anyway? Wasn't one of the Cullen endings from Origins basically how he went became Knight Commander and was much more vicious and cruel toward the mages than Gregoire was?

[Nerevar-as]

Ending slides are now rumors or something like that.

Anyway, Cullen didn´t turn against Meredith until the very end of the mage massacre. So even if we don´t see them, I think there were children in the Circle he allowed (or took part) to be slaughtered. He can go to hell as far as I´m concerned unless Gaider manages to pull a Jaime Lannister with him.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

dragonflight288 wrote...

A spirit of any virtue is dangerous outside of the Fade because they take their virtue to extremes. They see only that virtue. Justice is cold, hard, and swift. Mercy is loving and forgiving...so naturally every criminal will get off the hook and get right back to what they do. Patience takes a great deal of time, and sometimes swift action is required. Valor gets people killed.

All are virtues.

Aristotle said the golden mean that makes up any virtue the the perfect balance between two vices. Courage for example, dependent entirely on the situation, lies between cowardice and recklessness. If you run from the enemy, you are liable to get an arrow in your back. If you leap out of the trenches and charge the enemy in a fortified position long-before you are ready...that's hardly any better.

Spirits don't have that temperance or balance. It's the single aspect or virtue taken to an extreme.

Agreed, it's how I've generally percieved spirits, both benevolent and not. Benevolent ones are less dangerous because they do not actively seek mortals or to cross the veil, but they can still be dangerous/problematic if they are brought over, for whatever reason.

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm not so sure about that. A demon is a self-serving entity that wants to do evil things for its own amusement. Justice or Vengeance or whatever the hell he is now is trying to do something noble. He's not looking to do something for his own gain.

I question that.  Killing Ella serves nothing except his own anger.