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[dragonflight288]

Vengeance did kill Ella because of association with the Templars. Never mind her being an innocent young girl just wanting to see her family.

[Gervaise]

Acccording to David Gaider the speech where you ask Meredith why she hates mages is essential to understanding her character. In that case why do you only get it if you side with Meredith at the beginning of Act 3? Surely that is something that should have been available to anyone, particularly someone who doesn't agree with her as this may change their perception of her motives. I would ask the developers to ensure that in DA3 key note speeches can be accessed by all, not just those on a particular "side".

[Nerevar-as]

That only showed Chantry needs other people in charge. Someone with such a past shouldn´t have been allowed to rise so high or stay in power after it becomes clear what she´s doing. Elthina got what she deserved for allowing it. I´ll kill Anders because he obviously has lost control, and the collateral deaths.

For that matter, the “If you cannot show me another way, do not brand me a tyrant?” speech. I was wishing for the option to tell her to shut up. A wrong action is worst than doing nothing. And then there´s the hipocrisy of her using the idol.

[Arthur Cousland]

I hope there is a Starkhaven dlc, despite Mike Laidlaw's desire to get out of Kirkwall. There is a story sitting there, just waiting to be told.

Leave Kirkwall behind for DA3. A Starkhaven dlc including Sebastian is a must!

[RagingCyclone]

Ok, this is something that puzzles me. Gaider mentions that lyrium is like mercury. Now it's been twenty years since I took chemistry, but isn't mercury a heavy metal that is liquid at habitable temps? Yet we find lyrium in powder, sand, and liquid. Now I always equated lyrium to being a silicate (or silicon based) so this notion of it being a heavy metal like mercury confuses me.

[Herr Uhl]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

I hope there is a Starkhaven dlc, despite Mike Laidlaw's desire to get out of Kirkwall. There is a story sitting there, just waiting to be told.

Leave Kirkwall behind for DA3. A Starkhaven dlc including Sebastian is a must!

Odd use of the word despite. I'd think a desire to get out of Kirkwall would be a positive in this case.

[Hel]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Arthur Cousland wrote...

I hope there is a Starkhaven dlc, despite Mike Laidlaw's desire to get out of Kirkwall. There is a story sitting there, just waiting to be told.

Leave Kirkwall behind for DA3. A Starkhaven dlc including Sebastian is a must!

Odd use of the word despite. I'd think a desire to get out of Kirkwall would be a positive in this case.

Given that Starkhaven isn't a part of Kirkwall I don't see the issue...

[FieryDove]

Foolsfolly wrote...

He doesn’t really understand characterizing Sebastian as a fanatic.

Neither do I. He's actually the only Chantry person in the entire game who lays the blame of the Chantry explosion directly on the person who is to blame. He doesn't advocate slaughtering the Circle. He just wants Anders to pay for his heinous crime. My only dislike with Sebastian is that I like Rivaling him and I have to juggle him around so I never do anything nice in his presence and get Friendship points.

Maybe on rivalry Sebastian is more tolerable. On friendship, when Anders *pays* Sebastian says something along the lines "It will never be enough, but it's a start". That doesn't sound to me as if he is satisfied with just Anders taking the fall but...who knows.

I just hope Sebastian's "blindness" to the chantry could never be/do wrong nor his own hypocrisy "it's OK for me to want revenge/kill for a cause but not others" is left behind and he evolves more as a character who makes more...sense.

That and his battlecries maker forgive you, I will pray to the maker for you etc...Seb we are fighting DEMONS...give it a rest.

I don't understand what in this part David meant:

Romances - Gaider believes that Fenris and Anders occupy the same kind of “romantic space,” the ‘oh, you musn’t love me’ man pain thing. He regrets that and wished they would have been differentiated more, but it was an accident.

All in all a great read, thanks for posting OP.

[berelinde]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Ok, this is something that puzzles me. Gaider mentions that lyrium is like mercury. Now it's been twenty years since I took chemistry, but isn't mercury a heavy metal that is liquid at habitable temps? Yet we find lyrium in powder, sand, and liquid. Now I always equated lyrium to being a silicate (or silicon based) so this notion of it being a heavy metal like mercury confuses me.

Metals can also be alloys or salts.

[Herr Uhl]

FieryDove wrote...

Maybe on rivalry Sebastian is more tolerable. On friendship, when Anders *pays* Sebastian says something along the lines "It will never be enough, but it's a start". That doesn't sound to me as if he is satisfied with just Anders taking the fall but...who knows.

I interpreted that as not being enough to get over the chantry being blown up for him personally. It is something he'll bear with him.

I didn't see it as "we should kill more mages".

[FieryDove]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I interpreted that as not being enough to get over the chantry being blown up for him personally. It is something he'll bear with him.

I didn't see it as "we should kill more mages".

Maybe...But if you have him in party going to the gallows he makes a comment praying to the maker for forgiveness for aiding apostates saying the knight commander has to be taken down. Plus his talk in the gallows...he is only there because you mk'ed someone and you helped him get revenge/solve his family issues, not because it's the right thing to do. At least that is the impression he left with me.

[hoorayforicecream]

FieryDove wrote...

I don't understand what in this part David meant:

Romances - Gaider believes that Fenris and Anders occupy the same kind of “romantic space,” the ‘oh, you musn’t love me’ man pain thing. He regrets that and wished they would have been differentiated more, but it was an accident.

He means that Fenris's and Anders' romances share similar themes despite differences in specifics.

[Nerevar-as]

^ That. I found them 2 variants of the dark, dangerous guy archetype. And Seb is Seb. Ususally there´s a more balanced/nice guy as the other LI instead (Kaidan, Alistair, Jacob if he hadn´t ended as the generic guy).

[Cobra's_back]

I don’t want to offend anyone who loved the story. Sadly nothing in the interview stated that the Dragon age writers were going to make their characters more realistic. I was sick of how polarized they were. Honestly, the only characters I liked were Aveline, Varric and Hawke’s sister.
Anders whined too much. Yes, I helped the mages and helped the Underground Railroad, but would I support anyone saying that blood mages were only blood mages because of Templars. It was all the Templars fault. No one could be that naïve. The games seem to toy around with the seven deadly sins. They are the seven deadly sins because the world never runs short of people suffering from them. They are not the seven lonely sins. Many blood mages were blood mages for the power. Anders should have known that.
Fenris was unreal. His comment that he didn’t want to seem ungrateful was comical. Sure it was easy to get 100 % friendship with Fenris by completing his quests and killing all slavers, turning down demon offers, and not giving Merrill the tool for her mirror. I would have had Hawke do all those things anyway. The problem with him is that he doesn’t seem to grow as a person. He was a slave that didn’t mine Templars killing every man, woman and child mage. This was disturbing. The only reason Fenris supported the mages was because he had 100% friendship with Hawke.
Merrill was just too naïve. She was the only one I did the 100% rivalry relationship. She did grow up in the end, but only after the poor old lady died. I found it funny when she asked Hawke for the mirror tool. She stated she could be trusted. She was the first one to turn on you with the Pride demon in the fade. That is how she was programmed.
The dragon age origin characters were very entertaining with their funny lines. They all developed in the end. Dragon age origin had a great team. They were easy to care about.
I’m not surprised that some people were interested in a minor character like Cullen just because he actually changed sides on his own. Could it be that players were starved to see some kind of character development? Again, sorry for the negative comments, but I don’t think I was the only one who felt this way.
On a side note the combat improvements were excellent and I purchased the DLC because the game is fun. I’ll just tune out the team if they don’t develop.

[Carmen_Willow]

Anyroad2 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Aristotle said the golden mean that makes up any virtue the the perfect balance between two vices. Courage for example, dependent entirely on the situation, lies between cowardice and recklessness. If you run from the enemy, you are liable to get an arrow in your back. If you leap out of the trenches and charge the enemy in a fortified position long-before you are ready...that's hardly any better.

Mhm. Been reading Nicomachean Ethics lately. Good stuff.

Another thing that I'm sure played into the whole Justice/Vengeance thing was that in Awakening, you can kind of start to see Justice becoming more demon-like. He starts understanding why demons want to live in the realm of mortals, and why they covet what mortals have... and he starts to do the same, especially when it comes to the relationship that Aura and Kristoff had.

At least... thats what I thought.

I thought exactly the same thing-- uh oh, he's begun to covet! Coveting is BAD! 

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm not so sure about that. A demon is a self-serving entity that wants to do evil things for its own amusement. Justice or Vengeance or whatever the hell he is now is trying to do something noble. He's not looking to do something for his own gain.

I question that.  Killing Ella serves nothing except his own anger.

To be fair, he probably thought she was working with the Templars (which would be stupid) or was possessed by a demon (which would be ironic), in which case he may have deluded himself into thinking he was doing something noble when it was really just idiotic.

Though it's hard to say what was going through his mind besides "KILL THEM ALL!!", so without knowing I'll concede that it's one case of him being self serving.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

I thought it was kind of word of godded that Justice changed into a "demon of Vengeance" when he merged with Anders.

For some reason that seems hard to swallow for me. Gaider said demons feed off of baser emotions and demons by their very nature are self-serving, yet Justice doesn't really fit the latter criteria save for one instance which can be interpreted differently.

[Foolsfolly]

FieryDove wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I interpreted that as not being enough to get over the chantry being blown up for him personally. It is something he'll bear with him.

I didn't see it as "we should kill more mages".

Maybe...But if you have him in party going to the gallows he makes a comment praying to the maker for forgiveness for aiding apostates saying the knight commander has to be taken down. Plus his talk in the gallows...he is only there because you mk'ed someone and you helped him get revenge/solve his family issues, not because it's the right thing to do. At least that is the impression he left with me.

I don't think he means killing more mages either. And of course he'd ask for forgiveness he's siding against the Templars. His life's been with the Chantry and this is a huge moment in his life. He is conflicted. He's allegiance is divided between Hawke and his support of the Chantry and its institutions.

Isabela, Aveline, and Fenris aren't 100% on fighting for the mages either in that fight. I don't think that makes them mage haters...well Fenris is.

[AlexXIV]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

I thought it was kind of word of godded that Justice changed into a "demon of Vengeance" when he merged with Anders.

For some reason that seems hard to swallow for me. Gaider said demons feed off of baser emotions and demons by their very nature are self-serving, yet Justice doesn't really fit the latter criteria save for one instance which can be interpreted differently.

I think the comparision is the same as for humans. There are such who serve, and those who want to be served. I think we discussed it a ... long ... while ago that demons are probably corrupted spirits. What it exactly means is probably as complicated as if you want to describe what corrupted humans are or why they are corrupted and what amount of selfishness qualifies to call someone corrupted.

[Gervaise]

Ghostbusters - you are right that characters seem polarised in DA2 but then ultimately the plot leads the same way and they very helpfully have a character, Anders, state this to be the case.  You can have worked through the story trying to hold to the middle ground because you can see both sides of the arguement and want to try and achieve some sort of compromise where the mages have more freedom but some safeguards and the templar police force are still in place, then that option is comprehensively denied to you.   In some ways the clue was in the original promotion "Arise to power by any means possible."    Your aim is not meant to be achieving a workable peaceful solution - your aim is to gain power.   So at the end you are either Vicount, with influence over templars, or Mage Revolutionary Hero (whether you asked for that role or not), with influence over the mage rebellion.    

As for character development, that is very much dependent on the choices you make and whether you take the friendship or rivaltry path.   However, some are limited by plot constrants - for example no matter what you say to Anders and no matter what he promises you, he is going to end up blowing the Chantry and believes he has done the necessary thing to advance mage freedom.  He never once concedes that maybe some mages shouldn't be allowed to run free, every instance of magic abuse being excused that the mage "is desperate".  There is nothing you can do to change that view and if he is not dead at the end of the story, it is likely he will continue to think in that way.  

I felt that Fenris did develop as a character, particularly when following a mage Hawke.  If before the final act he can concede that Hawke is a good mage and the only true friend he has ever known, I feel that is a real breakthrough.  When he says that for every mage like Hawke there are another dozen scary ones out there that he and Hawke should be afraid of, that is not prejudice but a sensible outlook given the problems we have encountered in the game.   When he stood by me at the end when I sided with the mages, it gave one of the few senses of real achievement in the game.  That loyalty was hard won by Hawke and I am sure not easy for Fenris to do.    

Sebastian is an interesting character because I don't feel he was explored enough in the game, which is understanable as it was downloadable content rather than the main game.  For the record, I think he should have been a potential companion in the main game and that he also should have been possible as a proper romance - not necessarily bedded but with more obvious acknowledgement of our spiritual union if staying within the chantry fold and ultimately a sexual union if you take him on the secular path.  Maybe that is still to come.

On the whole though, I would agree with you that the DAO companions were more balanced in their views and did seem to demonstrate more character development, although again this was largely dependent on the choices you made and how you reacted with them.  For example, you had to spare Loghain to plumb the depths of his character and his reaction to how the plot developed really surprised me and made me far more sympathetic towards him than I thought I would be.   No one in DA2 had that sort of effect on me.   Most went the other way - original admiration to astounded horror - ultimate example Orsino.

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

To be fair, he probably thought she was working with the Templars (which would be stupid) or was possessed by a demon (which would be ironic), in which case he may have deluded himself into thinking he was doing something noble when it was really just idiotic.

Though it's hard to say what was going through his mind besides "KILL THEM ALL!!", so without knowing I'll concede that it's one case of him being self serving.

Once you examine Justice's motivation for killing Ella, do you not have to ask whether his motivation for causing the deaths of the mages of the Kirkwall Circle was not the same?  That they died not as an unfortunate casualty of a plan to free them, but to answer the frustrated rage of a demon who cannot forgive their acceptance of Templar rule over them.

[Gervaise]

How much is Justice/Vengence and how much Anders? He quite contemptuously describes Bethany and other Circle Mages as "dogs who have accepted the leash" whilst he remembers that he "is a wolf". He also reprimands Orsino for his compliance both when we go to see him in the Gallows and at the end of the game. It is almost as if he regards the Circle Mages as collaborators and therefore deserving of death. I thought at one time that towards the end Anders was almost the slave of Justice but he himself denies this and David Gaider seems to confirm it. If anything Justice has become the slave of Anders.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Gervaise wrote...

How much is Justice/Vengence and how much Anders? He quite contemptuously describes Bethany and other Circle Mages as "dogs who have accepted the leash" whilst he remembers that he "is a wolf". He also reprimands Orsino for his compliance both when we go to see him in the Gallows and at the end of the game. It is almost as if he regards the Circle Mages as collaborators and therefore deserving of death. I thought at one time that towards the end Anders was almost the slave of Justice but he himself denies this and David Gaider seems to confirm it. If anything Justice has become the slave of Anders.

More like both have become the slave of one another. It's mutal. As far as believing the Circle mages being collaborators, that sounds more like Justice's absolutism than Anders, given Anders basic personality minus Justice that we saw in Awakening. However, Anders has accepted the meld with Justice, and seems to accept Justice's beliefs. So it could be a combo of both.

On the rivalry path with Anders, it seems Justice is the one who is more and more in control, as opposed the the friend path, where Anders does not seem to struggle as much with the spirit.

[Ponendus]

Great read, thanks for posting.