204 réponses à ce sujet

[Apollo Starflare]

They should have made Varric a LI. That would have made eeeeeeverything better.

But yeah, I liked the type of story they were telling in DA2 and only felt it's execution let it down (and then, only at certain times). The ideas behind it were refreshing and creative I felt.

[Addai]

Andrastee wrote...

DA:2 made my uncomfortable, and not because of dark/mature content. I have no qualms with that. I often felt like I was being forced into choices I did not like. Neither side felt right at times. And playing any side completely has some really nasty consequences.

... and this is why I love the DA2 story way more than the DAO story. (Not saying you're wrong to feel differently! I can see why someone would form that opinion; I just personally preferred making morally grey decisions about a conflict between people to saving the world from a dragon.)

My discomfort with the game had nothing to do with being forced to make choices that had consequences, or unforeseen consequences to choices, but rather not having hardly any real choices at all.  Not moral quandaries, but plot forcing.

[TheAwesomologist]

Addai67 wrote...

Andrastee wrote...

DA:2 made my uncomfortable, and not because of dark/mature content. I have no qualms with that. I often felt like I was being forced into choices I did not like. Neither side felt right at times. And playing any side completely has some really nasty consequences.

... and this is why I love the DA2 story way more than the DAO story. (Not saying you're wrong to feel differently! I can see why someone would form that opinion; I just personally preferred making morally grey decisions about a conflict between people to saving the world from a dragon.)

My discomfort with the game had nothing to do with being forced to make choices that had consequences, or unforeseen consequences to choices, but rather not having hardly any real choices at all.  Not moral quandaries, but plot forcing.

THIS.
Don't forget too that the game has to be fun (beyond pure game play). DA2 did poor job of building the templar/mage conflict. It was there, they tried, but it just didn't work. As a player, my part of the story felt far more limited. In the end the game was all about Anders and Meredith. If Hawke never made it to kirkwall or just left at some point it doesn't feel like events would have changed much. If I wanted to feel like I have no effect in the world I can just, you know, go about living my normal day.
DA2 did a much better job at building the conflict with the Qunari up. Hawke mattered a bit more in that story. I don't see why that kind of attention and care in story telling didn't get applied to the Mage/Templar conflict. Toss in a confusing ending, bad villains, and forced cliffhanger and the overall story just didn't work. I guess it got the job done but I agree with the sentiment that maybe this story would have best been told in a novel.

[Maria13]

Addai67 wrote...

But you have to admit that all the LIs in DA2 were off their rocker anyway.

So agreed. I romanced Anders and he just stood outside my bedroom for several years... Fenris, well, I dunno, but even Gaider admitted he was really designed with a male Hawke in mind; Sebastian is chaste... The hetero LIs for females in DA:O were soooo much better and responsive, and they still wonder why so many DA:O fans are lukewarm on DA2... Do the math dudes, you lost the femmes!

Modifié par Maria13, 30 septembre 2011 - 07:26 .

[Anyroad2]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Andrastee wrote...

DA:2 made my uncomfortable, and not because of dark/mature content. I have no qualms with that. I often felt like I was being forced into choices I did not like. Neither side felt right at times. And playing any side completely has some really nasty consequences.

... and this is why I love the DA2 story way more than the DAO story. (Not saying you're wrong to feel differently! I can see why someone would form that opinion; I just personally preferred making morally grey decisions about a conflict between people to saving the world from a dragon.)

My discomfort with the game had nothing to do with being forced to make choices that had consequences, or unforeseen consequences to choices, but rather not having hardly any real choices at all.  Not moral quandaries, but plot forcing.

As a player, my part of the story felt far more limited. In the end the game was all about Anders and Meredith. If Hawke never made it to kirkwall or just left at some point it doesn't feel like events would have changed much. If I wanted to feel like I have no effect in the world I can just, you know, go about living my normal day.

I think youre selling Hawkes pressece in Kirkwall short.

Without Hawke:

Varric and Anders would not have met. The connections that Varric has are used to keep Anders safe, and out of the eye of people that would bring him in to the Templars.

The deeproads expedition probably would not have played out as it did (if at all). Without the Deeproads Expedition, there would be no Lyrium Idol that drove Meridith from strick to bat**** crazy anti-mage zealot. The tighter she squeezed, the harder the mages fought back. The harder the mages fought back, the harder Meridith squeezed ect.

Isabella most likely would have died to one of the sets of people chasing her. Without Isabella, there is no Tome of Koslun. Without the Tome, Kirkwall would have taken more losses when the Arishok finally became fed up enough with the city to act.

I could probably find more... but its about lunch time and I'm hungry. = \\

[IanPolaris]

Anyroad2 wrote...
I think youre selling Hawkes pressece in Kirkwall short.

I don't.  I think the general worthlessness of Hawke's presence is guaged almost exactly correctly.

Without Hawke:

Varric and Anders would not have met. The connections that Varric has are used to keep Anders safe, and out of the eye of people that would bring him in to the Templars.

Varric was determined to have his brother's expedition succeed, and Ander's presence and his free clinic in Darktown was not exactly a secret especially to one with Varric's street and Coterie connections.  Sure in the game Hawke found Anders first, but any effort at all by Varric would have easily placed him at Ander's door....and he would have because he needed those maps and knew that Anders was likely to have them.

The deeproads expedition probably would not have played out as it did (if at all). Without the Deeproads Expedition, there would be no Lyrium Idol that drove Meridith from strick to bat**** crazy anti-mage zealot. The tighter she squeezed, the harder the mages fought back. The harder the mages fought back, the harder Meridith squeezed ect.

There was available money to fund the expedition...even some Carta Dwarves are willing to fund it on the sly, and Varric (unlike his brother) wouldn't be too proud to take the Carta money in extremis.  Likewise most of the companions likely could have been hired.  The only ones that definately would be unavailable would be Bethany/Carver, Hawke, Avaline, and Merrill.  Anso was an underworld contact used by Fenris, and Varric would have had the street connections to help Fenris out.  Same with Isabella.    Ok Avaline herself might not have been available, but surly someone like her would have been.  Anders could have been coorced to join as well (feeling about the Deeproads notwithstanding it's better than being killed by Templars).  All told, there was more than enough firepower available to Varric/Anders to protect and finish the expedition as planned including the defeat of the Rock Wraith.

Isabella most likely would have died to one of the sets of people chasing her. Without Isabella, there is no Tome of Koslun. Without the Tome, Kirkwall would have taken more losses when the Arishok finally became fed up enough with the city to act.

Nah, the Arishock's litte game was over before it began.  His forces are hopelessly outnumbered.  It would just be a matter of how many people died before Meredith's Templars stormed the place.

I could probably find more... but its about lunch time and I'm hungry. =

Please do because the ones so far have been unconvincing.

-Polaris

[Persephone]

Andrastee wrote...

DA:2 made my uncomfortable, and not because of dark/mature content. I have no qualms with that. I often felt like I was being forced into choices I did not like. Neither side felt right at times. And playing any side completely has some really nasty consequences.

... and this is why I love the DA2 story way more than the DAO story. (Not saying you're wrong to feel differently! I can see why someone would form that opinion; I just personally preferred making morally grey decisions about a conflict between people to saving the world from a dragon.)

This This THIS! Exactly how I felt/feel.

Also prefer the DAII LIs to the ones from DAO. (The only one I really want to romance in DAO is un-romancable. And since I am not into bashful joksters, Viconia Lite...er...Morrigan, Leliana's romance is bugged as heck without mods and really was the least developed.... and while I love Zev......his romance felt abrupt and short compared to Alistair's or Morrigan's) 

As for the "Hawke is useless....".....Same goes for the Warden (Who is entirely interchangable and has no personality at all). I prefer Hawke myself.

[Persephone]

Maria13 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

But you have to admit that all the LIs in DA2 were off their rocker anyway.

So agreed. I romanced Anders and he just stood outside my bedroom for several years... Fenris, well, I dunno, but even Gaider admitted he was really designed with a male Hawke in mind; Sebastian is chaste... The hetero LIs for females in DA:O were soooo much better and responsive, and they still wonder why so many DA:O fans are lukewarm on DA2... Do the math dudes, you lost the femmes!

Not this Femme. I was tired of Anomen rewrites long ago. (Anomen, Kaidan, Alistair....)

[Mr.House]

Interesting read, interesting that they did have stuff for a mage Hawke/Bethany, shame it was cut.

[Mr.House]

Maria13 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

But you have to admit that all the LIs in DA2 were off their rocker anyway.

So agreed. I romanced Anders and he just stood outside my bedroom for several years... Fenris, well, I dunno, but even Gaider admitted he was really designed with a male Hawke in mind; Sebastian is chaste... The hetero LIs for females in DA:O were soooo much better and responsive, and they still wonder why so many DA:O fans are lukewarm on DA2... Do the math dudes, you lost the femmes!

So explain why alot of people who romanced Merrill and Izzy are females?

[Yrkoon]

^Completionists.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 07 octobre 2011 - 05:08 .

[nightscrawl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

A spirit of any virtue is dangerous outside of the Fade because they take their virtue to extremes. They see only that virtue. Justice is cold, hard, and swift. Mercy is loving and forgiving...so naturally every criminal will get off the hook and get right back to what they do. Patience takes a great deal of time, and sometimes swift action is required. Valor gets people killed.

All are virtues.

Aristotle said the golden mean that makes up any virtue the the perfect balance between two vices. Courage for example, dependent entirely on the situation, lies between cowardice and recklessness. If you run from the enemy, you are liable to get an arrow in your back. If you leap out of the trenches and charge the enemy in a fortified position long-before you are ready...that's hardly any better.

Spirits don't have that temperance or balance. It's the single aspect or virtue taken to an extreme.

It was so awesome of David to share all of this, and for the blogger to post!

Anyway, concerning Justice, I agree with this post. In Awakening when dealing with the Architect, I take the tack of (1) my Warden has not read The Calling, and (2) as a Grey Warden, the goal is to defend the lands. To do that ultimately you want the blights to end and the darkspawn threat to be eradicated. Justice does not see that, or he does not see beyond the immediate goal of the individual(s) who were responsible for Kristoff's death. This is flawed thinking, one that I don't know if Kristoff himself would agree with (since he was never given the choice of deciding about the Architect for himself) and shows how limited a Virtue can be in dealing with the mortal world, where not everything is black and white. Justice thinks like a Virtue. He does not think like a Grey Warden.

[alex90c]

Persephone wrote...

Andrastee wrote...

DA:2 made my uncomfortable, and not because of dark/mature content. I have no qualms with that. I often felt like I was being forced into choices I did not like. Neither side felt right at times. And playing any side completely has some really nasty consequences.

... and this is why I love the DA2 story way more than the DAO story. (Not saying you're wrong to feel differently! I can see why someone would form that opinion; I just personally preferred making morally grey decisions about a conflict between people to saving the world from a dragon.)

This This THIS! Exactly how I felt/feel.

Also prefer the DAII LIs to the ones from DAO. (The only one I really want to romance in DAO is un-romancable. And since I am not into bashful joksters, Viconia Lite...er...Morrigan, Leliana's romance is bugged as heck without mods and really was the least developed.... and while I love Zev......his romance felt abrupt and short compared to Alistair's or Morrigan's) 

As for the "Hawke is useless....".....Same goes for the Warden (Who is entirely interchangable and has no personality at all). I prefer Hawke myself.

Bleh. I hated nearly all of the DA2 cast so I definitely can't say I preferred the DA2 LIs. I mean, I'm saying this as a bloke, but I honestly thought the Alistair romance was the best because of all the shy/awkwardness which just made him pretty endearing. Then with DA2, it just felt like (FELT LIKE, NOT ACTUALLY WAS in case anyone rambles about how I'm wrong yadda yadda yadda):

Fenris: groangroangroan mages
Isabela: so uh, I like sex
Merrill: i'm not even going to describe her, I just wanted to whack her face with a spade repeatedly to knock the stupid out of her
Anders: groangroangroan mage freedom

good to see you again btw Perse 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Reading the thread, it's "interesting" to see certain people pissing and moaning about Hawke supposedly being useless and meaningless, given their pattern in posts on other subjects. Very "interesting" indeed.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 07 octobre 2011 - 05:31 .

[Mr.House]

Yrkoon wrote...

^Completionists.

No.

[esper]

Persephone wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

But you have to admit that all the LIs in DA2 were off their rocker anyway.

So agreed. I romanced Anders and he just stood outside my bedroom for several years... Fenris, well, I dunno, but even Gaider admitted he was really designed with a male Hawke in mind; Sebastian is chaste... The hetero LIs for females in DA:O were soooo much better and responsive, and they still wonder why so many DA:O fans are lukewarm on DA2... Do the math dudes, you lost the femmes!

Not this Femme. I was tired of Anomen rewrites long ago. (Anomen, Kaidan, Alistair....)

This Femme liked the male LI's as well.

[Killjoy Cutter]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Merrill was just too naïve. She was the only one I did the 100% rivalry relationship. She did grow up in the end, but only after the poor old lady died.

You mean the Keeper, who got herself killed by doing something stupid... after the Pride demon convinced her that only she could save Merrill? 

[Mr.House]

alex90c wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Andrastee wrote...

DA:2 made my uncomfortable, and not because of dark/mature content. I have no qualms with that. I often felt like I was being forced into choices I did not like. Neither side felt right at times. And playing any side completely has some really nasty consequences.

... and this is why I love the DA2 story way more than the DAO story. (Not saying you're wrong to feel differently! I can see why someone would form that opinion; I just personally preferred making morally grey decisions about a conflict between people to saving the world from a dragon.)

This This THIS! Exactly how I felt/feel.

Also prefer the DAII LIs to the ones from DAO. (The only one I really want to romance in DAO is un-romancable. And since I am not into bashful joksters, Viconia Lite...er...Morrigan, Leliana's romance is bugged as heck without mods and really was the least developed.... and while I love Zev......his romance felt abrupt and short compared to Alistair's or Morrigan's) 

As for the "Hawke is useless....".....Same goes for the Warden (Who is entirely interchangable and has no personality at all). I prefer Hawke myself.

Bleh. I hated nearly all of the DA2 cast so I definitely can't say I preferred the DA2 LIs. I mean, I'm saying this as a bloke, but I honestly thought the Alistair romance was the best because of all the shy/awkwardness which just made him pretty endearing. Then with DA2, it just felt like (FELT LIKE, NOT ACTUALLY WAS in case anyone rambles about how I'm wrong yadda yadda yadda):

Fenris: groangroangroan mages
Isabela: so uh, I like sex
Merrill: i'm not even going to describe her, I just wanted to whack her face with a spade repeatedly to knock the stupid out of her
Anders: groangroangroan mage freedom

good to see you again btw Perse 

Alistair: waaah Duncan, waaah I never had sex, waaah I don't want to be king
Zev: Let's have sex!
Leli: maker maker maker, love love love, shoes
Morrigan: No love

I can do the samething to the DAO Li's

[Persephone]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Merrill was just too naïve. She was the only one I did the 100% rivalry relationship. She did grow up in the end, but only after the poor old lady died.

You mean the Keeper, who got herself killed by doing something stupid... after the Pride demon convinced her that only she could save Merrill? 

That's not what happened at all......

[Mr.House]

Persephone wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Merrill was just too naïve. She was the only one I did the 100% rivalry relationship. She did grow up in the end, but only after the poor old lady died.

You mean the Keeper, who got herself killed by doing something stupid... after the Pride demon convinced her that only she could save Merrill? 

That's not what happened at all......

[Killjoy Cutter]

Mr.House wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

But you have to admit that all the LIs in DA2 were off their rocker anyway.

So agreed. I romanced Anders and he just stood outside my bedroom for several years... Fenris, well, I dunno, but even Gaider admitted he was really designed with a male Hawke in mind; Sebastian is chaste... The hetero LIs for females in DA:O were soooo much better and responsive, and they still wonder why so many DA:O fans are lukewarm on DA2... Do the math dudes, you lost the femmes!

So explain why alot of people who romanced Merrill and Izzy are females?

In DA:O, my female warden ended up with Alistair. 

In DA2, my female Hawkes have ended up with Merrill and Izzy, because I can't figure out how to get my brain around either of them ending up with creepy, weepy, terrorist  Anders, or the guy teetering on the edge of anti-mage bigotry. 

[Persephone]

Mr.House wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Andrastee wrote...

DA:2 made my uncomfortable, and not because of dark/mature content. I have no qualms with that. I often felt like I was being forced into choices I did not like. Neither side felt right at times. And playing any side completely has some really nasty consequences.

... and this is why I love the DA2 story way more than the DAO story. (Not saying you're wrong to feel differently! I can see why someone would form that opinion; I just personally preferred making morally grey decisions about a conflict between people to saving the world from a dragon.)

This This THIS! Exactly how I felt/feel.

Also prefer the DAII LIs to the ones from DAO. (The only one I really want to romance in DAO is un-romancable. And since I am not into bashful joksters, Viconia Lite...er...Morrigan, Leliana's romance is bugged as heck without mods and really was the least developed.... and while I love Zev......his romance felt abrupt and short compared to Alistair's or Morrigan's) 

As for the "Hawke is useless....".....Same goes for the Warden (Who is entirely interchangable and has no personality at all). I prefer Hawke myself.

Bleh. I hated nearly all of the DA2 cast so I definitely can't say I preferred the DA2 LIs. I mean, I'm saying this as a bloke, but I honestly thought the Alistair romance was the best because of all the shy/awkwardness which just made him pretty endearing. Then with DA2, it just felt like (FELT LIKE, NOT ACTUALLY WAS in case anyone rambles about how I'm wrong yadda yadda yadda):

Fenris: groangroangroan mages
Isabela: so uh, I like sex
Merrill: i'm not even going to describe her, I just wanted to whack her face with a spade repeatedly to knock the stupid out of her
Anders: groangroangroan mage freedom

good to see you again btw Perse 

Alistair: waaah Duncan, waaah I never had sex, waaah I don't want to be king
Zev: Let's have sex!
Leli: maker maker maker, love love love, shoes
Morrigan: No love

I can do the samething to the DAO Li's

But they are SACROSANCT! How DARE you?:lol:

[Killjoy Cutter]

Persephone wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Merrill was just too naïve. She was the only one I did the 100% rivalry relationship. She did grow up in the end, but only after the poor old lady died.

You mean the Keeper, who got herself killed by doing something stupid... after the Pride demon convinced her that only she could save Merrill? 

That's not what happened at all......

Maybe you played a different game, because in DA2 that's EXACTLY how it went down. 

[Mr.House]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Merrill was just too naïve. She was the only one I did the 100% rivalry relationship. She did grow up in the end, but only after the poor old lady died.

You mean the Keeper, who got herself killed by doing something stupid... after the Pride demon convinced her that only she could save Merrill? 

That's not what happened at all......

Maybe you played a different game, because in DA2 that's EXACTLY how it went down. 

No.

[Persephone]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Merrill was just too naïve. She was the only one I did the 100% rivalry relationship. She did grow up in the end, but only after the poor old lady died.

You mean the Keeper, who got herself killed by doing something stupid... after the Pride demon convinced her that only she could save Merrill? 

That's not what happened at all......

Maybe you played a different game, because in DA2 that's EXACTLY how it went down. 

No. I beat it over 10 times and that definitely NEVER happened. And that's actually a fave quest of mine.<_<