204 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Persephone wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'm not sure about the exact paraphrasing but there is a narrative one can derive from the situation that says Marethari is the fool and it's not Merrill's fault at all, yes.

That's after the Keeper is dead and Hawke can say that. Not the Keeper to Merrill.

Derive from the situation, not based on what Merethari claims to be true. 

So Merrill unchaining that demon would have been smarter how? 

We don't know if Merrill would have being tricked into do that. And we will never know because Mathari reacted first, thus we can never know what would have happened had Matheri not done what she did.

But aren't there plenty of threads discussion this already?

[Killjoy Cutter]

Filament wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'm not sure about the exact paraphrasing but there is a narrative one can derive from the situation that says Marethari is the fool and it's not Merrill's fault at all, yes.

That's after the Keeper is dead and Hawke can say that. Not the Keeper to Merrill.

I'm not talking about what anyone said in-game, I'm saying some people look at the situation and think Marethari was a fool for accepting an ostensibly trapped pride demon into herself based on its word that it wasn't so trapped and was going to go through Merrill's mirror and possess her instead. Playing off Marethari's pride that she knows what's better for Merrill and it's up to her to protect Merrill.

Bingo.  The pride demon played Marethari like a fiddle. 

[Mr.House]

The demon tries to kill Merrill and Hawke after the Keeper told Merrill the demons "plans". That means two things.
1:The Keeper was right and the the demon had to kill witnesses
2:The demons true plan was to have the Keeper, not Merrill and Merrill was a witness he did not want and saw her as a tool that he could no longer be used.

Modifié par Mr.House, 07 octobre 2011 - 06:24 .

[mesmerizedish]

Master Shiori wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'm not sure about the exact paraphrasing but there is a narrative one can derive from the situation that says Marethari is the fool and it's not Merrill's fault at all, yes.

That's after the Keeper is dead and Hawke can say that. Not the Keeper to Merrill.

Derive from the situation, not based on what Merethari claims to be true. 

Except what she claims happens to be true.

Okay, I wasn't going to jump in here, but I've a problem... differing viewpoints on what actually happened is fine, but there's absolutely no actual evidence to support either version of Marethari's actions.

[mousestalker]

Merrill can not be possessed by the demon of pride, she's already possessed by the much more powerful Spirit of Cute.

Now you know.

[RagingCyclone]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Filament wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'm not sure about the exact paraphrasing but there is a narrative one can derive from the situation that says Marethari is the fool and it's not Merrill's fault at all, yes.

That's after the Keeper is dead and Hawke can say that. Not the Keeper to Merrill.

I'm not talking about what anyone said in-game, I'm saying some people look at the situation and think Marethari was a fool for accepting an ostensibly trapped pride demon into herself based on its word that it wasn't so trapped and was going to go through Merrill's mirror and possess her instead. Playing off Marethari's pride that she knows what's better for Merrill and it's up to her to protect Merrill.

Bingo.  The pride demon played Marethari like a fiddle. 

So the whole part of thinking Marethari is a fool is because of assuming facts not in evidence?

[Killjoy Cutter]

Master Shiori wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'm not sure about the exact paraphrasing but there is a narrative one can derive from the situation that says Marethari is the fool and it's not Merrill's fault at all, yes.

That's after the Keeper is dead and Hawke can say that. Not the Keeper to Merrill.

Derive from the situation, not based on what Merethari claims to be true. 

Except what she claims happens to be true.

The only thing that's shown to be true is that the demon is in fact inside her and not in the statue, and that like any other abomination, the demon is destroyed with the host. 

[Persephone]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Everything Merethari says in that cave must be taken in light of the fact that she is possessed by the demon, and thus taken with a hefty grain of salt.  I find it hilareous that so many people take what a possessed Merethari says as the literal truth of the matter.  

First, the demon fights to survive, easily taking complete control of Merethari to do so.
Then, when beaten, the demon tries appeal to what it imagines to be Merrill's pride to trick its way out of the situation.

(I've always chosen the option for Hawke to say "but you told us you had to die".) 

EXCEPT: Big indicator that Marethari can hold on to her control until after saying her Goodbyes: She tells Merrill that she MUST be KILLED in order to ERADICATE the demon.

Demons want to survive. They do not tell their intended vessels how to obliterate them.

[Master Shiori]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Except what she claims happens to be true.

Okay, I wasn't going to jump in here, but I've a problem... differing viewpoints on what actually happened is fine, but there's absolutely no actual evidence to support either version of Marethari's actions.

Fair enough Ish.

[Killjoy Cutter]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Filament wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'm not sure about the exact paraphrasing but there is a narrative one can derive from the situation that says Marethari is the fool and it's not Merrill's fault at all, yes.

That's after the Keeper is dead and Hawke can say that. Not the Keeper to Merrill.

I'm not talking about what anyone said in-game, I'm saying some people look at the situation and think Marethari was a fool for accepting an ostensibly trapped pride demon into herself based on its word that it wasn't so trapped and was going to go through Merrill's mirror and possess her instead. Playing off Marethari's pride that she knows what's better for Merrill and it's up to her to protect Merrill.

Bingo.  The pride demon played Marethari like a fiddle. 

So the whole part of thinking Marethari is a fool is because of assuming facts not in evidence?

And what facts are there in evidence to support the possessed Merethari's claim that she knew the demon's plan and that she knew how things would play out with Merrill and the mirror? 

[Mr.House]

After the Keeper says goodbye, the Keeper soul dies and the demon has taken control of her body. Before that point the Keeper is still herself, fighting the demon inside.

[Persephone]

Mr.House wrote...

After the Keeper says goodbye, the Keeper soul dies and the demon has taken control of her body. Before that point the Keeper is still herself, fighting the demon inside.

This. Yup. That's at least how I see it.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Persephone wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Everything Merethari says in that cave must be taken in light of the fact that she is possessed by the demon, and thus taken with a hefty grain of salt.  I find it hilareous that so many people take what a possessed Merethari says as the literal truth of the matter.  

First, the demon fights to survive, easily taking complete control of Merethari to do so.
Then, when beaten, the demon tries appeal to what it imagines to be Merrill's pride to trick its way out of the situation.

(I've always chosen the option for Hawke to say "but you told us you had to die".) 

EXCEPT: Big indicator that Marethari can hold on to her control until after saying her Goodbyes: She tells Merrill that she MUST be KILLED in order to ERADICATE the demon.

Demons want to survive. They do not tell their intended vessels how to obliterate them.

It's a pride demon, it probably believed it could defeat everyone in the room and do whatever it wanted. 

[RagingCyclone]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Filament wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'm not sure about the exact paraphrasing but there is a narrative one can derive from the situation that says Marethari is the fool and it's not Merrill's fault at all, yes.

That's after the Keeper is dead and Hawke can say that. Not the Keeper to Merrill.

I'm not talking about what anyone said in-game, I'm saying some people look at the situation and think Marethari was a fool for accepting an ostensibly trapped pride demon into herself based on its word that it wasn't so trapped and was going to go through Merrill's mirror and possess her instead. Playing off Marethari's pride that she knows what's better for Merrill and it's up to her to protect Merrill.

Bingo.  The pride demon played Marethari like a fiddle. 

So the whole part of thinking Marethari is a fool is because of assuming facts not in evidence?

And what facts are there in evidence to support the possessed Merethari's claim that she knew the demon's plan and that she knew how things would play out with Merrill and the mirror? 

Because unless the demon is suicidal at first telling you to kill her, and then after the fight wants to survive? That's a huge contradiction and the key clue to who you are actually talking to.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 07 octobre 2011 - 06:32 .

[Wulfram]

Mr.House wrote...

After the Keeper says goodbye, the Keeper soul dies and the demon has taken control of her body. Before that point the Keeper is still herself, fighting the demon inside.

I agree.

Of course, that doesn't mean Marethari is correct.  She may have been fooled by the demon, and even if she's correct about what the demon's plan was, that doesn't mean it would have worked out that way - particularly not if Marethari told Merrill and Hawke about it.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Persephone wrote...

No, no. Just saying that Marethari's solution is preferable to a blood mage like Merrill playing vessel to a pride demon.

Both were acting with prudence. Marethari with the notion that if she couldn't defeat the demon, Hawke and Merrill would be able to contain the situation; and Merrill brought along Hawke for the same reason. Marethari was acting to protect Merrill. That's about how much I could tell.

I suppose this is yet another viewpoint.

[Mr.House]

Wulfram wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

After the Keeper says goodbye, the Keeper soul dies and the demon has taken control of her body. Before that point the Keeper is still herself, fighting the demon inside.

I agree.

Of course, that doesn't mean Marethari is correct.  She may have been fooled by the demon, and even if she's correct about what the demon's plan was, that doesn't mean it would have worked out that way - particularly not if Marethari told Merrill and Hawke about it.

Yup, maybe the Keeper was played, maybe she was wrong, maybe she was right, maybe the demons true goal was to have the Keeper. The fact is the Keeper faught off the demon until it was the right time to kill him, she held on long enough to say her farewell to Merrill.

[Maria Caliban]

Sister Goldring wrote...

Hi,

I was just surfing a bit and came across this on the DA Wiki.  I couldn't see that it had been posted here earlier so I thought I'd include the link for anyone interested.

http://dragonage.wik...ia_to_a_Fangirl

Isn't he a sweetie. 

Neat. Thanks for the link.

[Arcadian Legend]

Yeah, I posted that link in another topic within the general section. BTW yOUR AVVY IS AWESOME.

[Merela]

Persephone wrote...

Not this Femme. I was tired of Anomen rewrites long ago. (Anomen, Kaidan, Alistair....)

I’m glad to read that someone else has noticed the blatant similarities between Anomen and Alistair. Both “joined” a renowned order of great warriors, both have issues with their fathers, both have a issue involving their sister that determines their personalities, both offer a flower to the woman they love telling it remains them of her, both ask for the life of the man who “destroyed” their “family” and/or their life, and both can dump the PC and/or run away with their gears. Bastards!

Now, I don’t say they’re exactly the same, or that similarities are necessary a bad thing. But it somewhat killed Alistair and his romance for me. He was, like, ten years too late. (...now I feel old dammit! )

Modifié par Merela, 07 octobre 2011 - 06:54 .

[BigEvil]

mousestalker wrote...

Merrill can not be possessed by the demon of pride, she's already possessed by the much more powerful Spirit of Cute.

Now you know.

And knowing is half the battle.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Filament wrote...

It's all speculative, yes, including on the opposite side of the coin, thinking Marethari did what she had to do based on assuming the demon's words were true with no evidence. But even if the demon wasn't lying, one might still question whether it was therefore the best option to get it over with and make a pride abomination out of a powerful keeper rather than, I dunno, warn Hawke, or go to the alienage and watch over Merrill so she can be there if Merrill fixes the mirror and the demon actually does come through the mirror.

Those are fine points. But I suppose one reacts more to situations, and one holds on to ones fears. Marethari was unwilling all along to allow Merrill to complete the mirror, mainly fearing the unknown. It's of course debatable whether she really knew what completing the mirror would bring about - she says that the demon would have come out, but would that have been her only fear? Or was it that she thought about still more horrors?. With such a mindset, it's improbable that she'd have considered allowing the mirror to have been completed. Or perhaps she hoped that Merrill would simply give up. But when Merrill finally forces the situation, Marethari acts on her own fear, and on the assumption that she's protecting Merrill's life. And let's not forget that with the demon gone, so is perhaps the hope that the mirror would be completed. Which, in her view at least, would have been preferable than allowing Merrill to complete the mirror.

Both Merrill and Marethari had considered safeguards, though, to an extent. And a pride abomination out of a powerful keeper has no bearing on the abomination's power, as far as I know. It depends entirely on the demon's power.

EDIT: Clarifying a point further.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 07 octobre 2011 - 07:03 .

[esper]

@MichaelFinnegan
Abominations are a mix of the host and the demons power so Pride Demon + Fenriyel (for example) = extremely dangerous because both are among the most powerfull of their kind.

[Persephone]

Merela wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Not this Femme. I was tired of Anomen rewrites long ago. (Anomen, Kaidan, Alistair....)

I’m glad to read that someone else has noticed the blatant similarities between Anomen and Alistair. Both “joined” a renowned order of great warriors, both have issues with their fathers, both have a issue involving their sister that determines their personalities, both offer a flower to the woman they love telling it remains them of her, both ask for the life of the man who “destroyed” their “family” and/or their life, and both can dump the PC and/or run away with their gears. Bastards!

Now, I don’t say they’re exactly the same, or that similarities are necessary a bad thing. But it somewhat killed Alistair and his romance for me. He was, like, ten years too late. (...now I feel old dammit! )

YAY!!! 

Were it not for Steve Valentine, Alistair wouldn't interest me at all. Sweet and fun as he is....but that's not what yours truly is attracted to. *Points to avatar & then runs away*