19 réponses à ce sujet

[CBGB]

Who would've thought a game could make you think so hard about ethics?

I'm on my first playthrough of ME2, and the choice about pursuing a genophage cure was hard - deeply, fiendishly, wonderfully hard. I'm still digesting the implications about my beliefs.

Lots of things here are well done, but I've played other games with smooth combat, interesting character options, and strong voice acting. Only a handful of movies and books have so engaged the gut level of my morals.

A high bar met. Kudos, Bioware.

[BentOrgy]

Unless saving the Krogan causes immense political backlash and severe hurdles for Shepard in ME3, I really see no point in not saving them, like the Rachni Queen; the only reason we really had for flushing her and her race down the proverbial drain was honestly, just to be a douchebag. So I saw no real "Internal struggle," there at all.

Like with Arrival's supposed "Heart-wrenching" sacrifice; there was no context, no feeling, and no reason to care; mainly do to the fact that, from "Bring down the sky," to the end of ME2, Batarians have usually been completely asses. Why would we give a damn about a few more? Sure, you can "Read into it," and imagine a poor, overworked Batarian colony worker holding his terrified daughter, sobbing and shuddering as the blast rushed closer and closer toward certain doom, or if we'd heard shrieking and death cries over the system's com buoy, but no, there wasn't so much as a whimper. Again, no reason to care.

So woohoo, if you thought it was an engaging, or thought provoking scene, but for me, Bioware's got a long way to go before they reach Metal Gear, or Heavy Rain intensity.

[Jafroboy]

HeavyRain? Pfff, I liked it when it was called Fahrenheit.

Hipster cred aside though, The Krogan are basically bad guys who tried to take over the galaxy just like the rachni or anyone else. In any other game these Giant Lizard people could have been the main enemies. I think there is definite moral/survivalist choice in wether or not to let them do that again.

As for arrival; dun dun dun, another batarian bites the dust, dun dun dun, another batarian bites the dust, and another one down, and another one gone, and another one bites the dust...

[BentOrgy]

Erm, Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain are two different games. "Fahrenheit" is the international name of a game called (In the USA.) "Indigo Prophecy,"

I've played both, and both are wonderful, and are fine examples of my original post.

[MrFob]

I agree, CBGB, BioWare has created a couple of intriguing back stories.
And I disagree with BentOrgy. I may be able to see your point with the Rachni, but I think you just didn't pay enough attention concerning the Krogan. It is not about saving the race any more. The point is that the Genophage may turn out to be their salvation rather then destruction (yeah, Harbinger quote ). "Curing" it will destabilise their population growth again and at some point give them no choice but to expand again (violently if I know the Krogan). The Genophage was a horrible thing to do to the species but given the circumstances at the time, when there was a choice between eradication and the Genophage, it may have been the best option anyone saw.
When asked to cure it, I wouldn't worry so much about the political backlash but rather about the long term consequences (especially for the Krogan themselves). That is the dilemma and I think it is an engaging question that does not have an easy answer (I am not the only one as evidenced by all the discussions on the forums over the years).
The other games you list do a good job as well on different topics and with different means (comparing ME with Heavy Rain or Fahrenheit is dubious at best though IMO).
@CBGB: If you like games like ME (in terms of gameplay and story approach) I definitely recommend you play the new Deus Ex game. It makes you stop and think about ethical issues sometimes as well.

[Hallusinaatti]

I didn't have any ethical problems with the genophage. Facts speak for themselves - it's the right thing to do. And as Mordin points out it's not really a sterilization virus - it's a means of restoring pre-industrial Krogan birth rate.

I think humanity could use a genophage too.

[d1sciple]

i'm not quite into the pressure of the choices, where it goes from a firefight to a literally right or wrong choice with only very little insight. it seems like sheps wandering round the place in a daze and has no feelings about anything, let alone any memories. seriously, he didn't know about Jacobs elite group or even the existence of the Collectors? what a douche.
that's kind've ok when looking at it from an RPG point of view, where your coal is to completely invent the character from scratch, but i don't think ME1s prelude was enough of a build up before diving into serious renegade/paragon decisions. there are only a few places through both games where i had trouble making a decision and most of them political. i love this game and i love the idea and the way they tell the story, ME2 is a triumph where DA2 has failed, i'm sure it'll only get better and better, i got high hopes for Bioware.

[CBGB]

Fob, thanks for the recommendation of Deus Ex. Do I need to play the first? I'm glad I played ME1, even if I liked ME2 better, thanks to both the gameplay and its deeper integration of choices into the story.


About the genophage, Mordin himself found the choice burdensome: he ran hundreds of simulations, studied his options for years, and had a crisis of faith afterward. He still believed he made the right decision, but it's fair to say it wasn't an easy one. I agree with the third post in Mordin, Genophage, Ethics , that Mordin's struggle at the corpse of the Krogan female was wonderfully done.

In any case, I didn't mean to start another thread on whether it's best to cure the genophage - no matter how clear the choice was to any player, there are certainly others with the opposing view.:
To Cure the Genophage?
Worried about Mordin
Consequences of Mordin's Mission
Should I cure?
The Genophage Cure
Mordin and the Genophage Cure

What really struck me was that a game could prompt such ethical debate. Remarkable!

If the genophage cure was an easy decision for you, Bioware missed its mark with you. But it struck straight on with me, and I like that a game can make me think not just during play, but after.

Modifié par CBGB, 24 septembre 2011 - 06:02 .

[BentOrgy]

MrFob wrote...

I agree, CBGB, BioWare has created a couple of intriguing back stories.
And I disagree with BentOrgy. I may be able to see your point with the Rachni, but I think you just didn't pay enough attention concerning the Krogan. It is not about saving the race any more. The point is that the Genophage may turn out to be their salvation rather then destruction (yeah, Harbinger quote ). "Curing" it will destabilise their population growth again and at some point give them no choice but to expand again (violently if I know the Krogan). The Genophage was a horrible thing to do to the species but given the circumstances at the time, when there was a choice between eradication and the Genophage, it may have been the best option anyone saw.
When asked to cure it, I wouldn't worry so much about the political backlash but rather about the long term consequences (especially for the Krogan themselves). That is the dilemma and I think it is an engaging question that does not have an easy answer (I am not the only one as evidenced by all the discussions on the forums over the years).
The other games you list do a good job as well on different topics and with different means (comparing ME with Heavy Rain or Fahrenheit is dubious at best though IMO).
@CBGB: If you like games like ME (in terms of gameplay and story approach) I definitely recommend you play the new Deus Ex game. It makes you stop and think about ethical issues sometimes as well.

I understood it perfectly. its not like it was vague, Bioware has proven to be a fan of the direct approach concerning most data. I say most, because I'm still holding out for them to weave elements such as the Cipher and etcetera back into the story. When I play a game for its story, I listen, watch, and read everything. Just laying that fact out there so there won't be any arguments regarding facts, only opinions.

Its true that there are many "Implications" as to what may happen, should the genophage be cured. However, seeing how we are evidently, at one point, rescuing a Krogan female to bridge the gap between the Salarians and the Krogan, (As stated in numerous live demos at Comicon, PAX, etc.) the fact that Mass Effect 3 is about building bridges to unify the Galaxy against the threat of Reaperdom, and that Bioware seems compelled to cater to both Renegade and Paragon players, its fairly safe to assume that the backlash for curing the genophage will be minimal. Hell, it might even been the more worth while choice; considering Wrex is all for it, and considering the fact that he's apparantly destined to be the Krogan messaiah, pissing him off by not coughing up a cure might escalate tension even more.

Which is why I said, "To me," it really isn't all that staggering an equation, but that's a moot point I suppose.

And there's hardly anything "Dubious" about it, in the context that I meant, sorry if that wasn't as clear as I thought it was: The games listed (Barring of course Metal Gear.) were created to propel the player through an emotional journey, with many twists and questions to be answered, all the while confronting said player with choices and decisions, both ethical and logical, quite reminiscent of what Mass Effect is trying to do. So you see, it wasn't so off the mark. Metal Gear (My favourite game series in history.) was thrown in merely to demonstrate the level of awe and powerful emotion that games can achieve, and that (Again, for me, but I feel its a valid opinion.) Bioware has yet to grasp even a tenth of what I felt playing that series. To put it simply, I never cried playing any of their games, and I doubt that I will.

And no, you don't need to play the first, seeing as Human Revolution (A wonderful game, on my third playthrough.) is a prequel to the whole series.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 24 septembre 2011 - 09:11 .

[d1sciple]

CBGB wrote...

Fob, thanks for the recommendation of Deus Ex. Do I need to play the first? I'm glad I played ME1, even if I liked ME2 better, thanks to both the gameplay and its deeper integration of choices into the story.

if you want to play deus ex play the first and deal with the shock of 90's graphics, the latest one is a joke. the graphics are straight out of half life 2, the story is massively clichéd and boring and your character is an utter douche, one of the worst protagonists i've ever come across. just a complete **** with no value.

[BentOrgy]

d1sciple wrote...

CBGB wrote...

Fob, thanks for the recommendation of Deus Ex. Do I need to play the first? I'm glad I played ME1, even if I liked ME2 better, thanks to both the gameplay and its deeper integration of choices into the story.

if you want to play deus ex play the first and deal with the shock of 90's graphics, the latest one is a joke. the graphics are straight out of half life 2, the story is massively clichéd and boring and your character is an utter douche, one of the worst protagonists i've ever come across. just a complete **** with no value.

Unfortunately, its kinda true; I still get squeemish when I look at their skybox, oof. And Jensen to me, suffers from lacklustre voice acting more than anything, he's about as engaging as Meer's perfomance as Shepard.

As for story however, I completely agree, at the risk of irritating everyone here with my blatant favouritism, it was very similar to Metal Gear Solid 2's story, without any of the backdrop or emotional elements to back it up. Not just Human Revolution though, pretty much all of Deus Ex has been an attempt to capture what Kojima-san and his Team have done.

To clarify; future built on mech and nano-technology, the Denton kids (Les Enfant Terribles anyone?) the biochip hijacking, (Ocelot's hijacking of the SOP system.) the Illuminati, (The Philosophers.) the Majestic Twelve (The Patriots.) various AI's and their uses in the story, (GW and Arsenal Gear, etc.) the list goes on and on really. I know its difficult to craft a truly original story now, with all the stories that have come before, but its way too coincidental to be by accident.

[d1sciple]

in all it wasn't the worst game i've ever played, but i won't be playing it twice and i can't believe what IGN gave it, but then they gave RE5 a 9 or something, what a ****in joke. if they had've called it something else and removed it from the Deus Ex world, maybe it would've fared better in my eyes as the OG was incredible.
as for Metal Gear, you do love it man! admittedly again the OG is the best PS1 game ever and also just one of the best games of all time period but i still think it all got tied it up in it's thousands of super-intricate plot twists and got a bit bogged down, though very few franchises can boast as good a story and revolutionary gameplay like the Metal Gear Games, not one has been a dud.

[Hallusinaatti]

CBGB wrote...

If the genophage cure was an easy decision for you, Bioware missed its mark with you. But it struck straight on with me, and I like that a game can make me think not just during play, but after.

I don't think I missed any ethic debate even I support genophace hundred percent. I understand those who want to cure it but they have let their humanity blind their rationality, and expect that good things are always rewarded with good results. I do not relish committing genocide but sacrifices must be made for the greater good.

[BentOrgy]

Hallusinaatti wrote...

I don't think I missed any ethic debate even I support genophace hundred percent. I understand those who want to cure it but they have let their humanity blind their rationality, and expect that good things are always rewarded with good results. I do not relish committing genocide but sacrifices must be made for the greater good.

There's a quote floating around there somewhere, unfortunately I can't remember who said it, of where it came from, but it essentially said this:

Sacrificing for the greater good is a line created by those who were too lazy to find a better solution.

[GuardianAngel470]

Whatchoo talkin bout foo? Bioware did NOTHIN rite in thi' game. There ain' nothin good bout it.

[Hallusinaatti]

BentOrgy wrote...
committing genocide but sacrifices must be made for the greater good.

There's a quote floating around there somewhere, unfortunately I can't remember who said it, of where it came from, but it essentially said this:

Sacrificing for the greater good is a line created by those who were too lazy to find a better solution.

Have you heard this: "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions"?

To me the Genophage is not lack of finding another solution. It's playing things safe. Saving the galaxy will be in vain if all that follows us is a Krogan takeover who make use of weakened Citadel races. It's unfortunate but the only way we can secure a peaceful future for the galaxy is to make sure the Krogan make that ultimate sacrifice. If they can't get along with reduced numbers, it means they won't get along if we let them grow unchecked.

Modifié par Hallusinaatti, 26 septembre 2011 - 09:36 .

[eternalnightmare13]

Agreed!

CBGB wrote...

Who would've thought a game could make you think so hard about ethics?

I'm on my first playthrough of ME2, and the choice about pursuing a genophage cure was hard - deeply, fiendishly, wonderfully hard. I'm still digesting the implications about my beliefs.

Lots of things here are well done, but I've played other games with smooth combat, interesting character options, and strong voice acting. Only a handful of movies and books have so engaged the gut level of my morals.

A high bar met. Kudos, Bioware.

[1upD]

 I agree with the OP. I've gotten headaches just trying to decide some of these things, even while replaying the game. 

SPOILERS (Highlight to read)

I thought the choice on Legion's loyalty mission was especially hard.  I don't want Quarians or Geth to die unnecessarily, and I want both of them to be on my side in ME3. I'm still afraid I made the wrong choice and that many people will die because of it.

Modifié par 1upD, 26 septembre 2011 - 08:01 .

[Hallusinaatti]

Agreed with 1upD, that was one tough call. But again I played it safe and went Renegade.

[1upD]

Hallusinaatti wrote...

Agreed with 1upD, that was one tough call. But again I played it safe and went Renegade.

I think decisions like that are really the best ones because 'paragon' and 'renegade' are really vague and don't necessarily reflect good and evil.  I was a pure paragon on my main playthrough, but yet in the end I deeply regretted choosing the "paragon" option for that choice, which I now think is not only unethical but reckless and potentially catastrophic depending on how the decision pans out in ME3.