59 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

So, I've been glossing over what limited information there is on the elves as a whole, the Dalish, the Dales, the Chantry, and various other codexes. One particular entry stuck out to me. The one on Vallaslin, by Brother Genitivi:

He told me that while some Dalish actively seek out human travelers to rob or frighten, most of his people would rather be left alone. He seemed to believe that punishing the humans for past actions only led to more violence. I asked him about the intricate tattoos on his face; he told me they were called vallaslin--"blood writing." His were symbols of Andruil the Huntress, one of the most highly revered elven goddesses. He said the Dalish mark themselves to stand out from humans and from those of their kin who have chosen to live under human rule. He said the vallaslin remind his people that they must never again surrender their beliefs

I'm wondering something. Perhaps the elves of the Dales as a whole weren't responsible for the attack on Red Crossing, if the attack was indeed caused by elves. Perhaps it was the result of fringe elements. Perhaps it was elven bandits who either left the Dales or were never a part of the Dales. And thus, the Chantry may have acted hastily.

We know the Chantry sent missionaries to try and convert them, and the Emerald Knights sent them away. Later, the Dalish Elves saw that the Chantry had sent Templars to forcibly convert them. If fringe elements caused the attack, it might explain a lot.

I'm also wondering if maybe, just maybe, Orlais caused it. The entry on the Long Walk says that some elves decided to turn back and live in human cities. Perhaps Orlais (or if not Orlais as a whole, a blood mage noble from Orlais) made some of these elves attack Red Crossing and then held the Dales responsible so as to be able to call upon the Chantry and their Templars for an Exalted March. Is this unlikely? Maybe a bit, but it certainly would be interesting given how Orlesians are shrewd and cunning people who always play games of political intrigue. Given that they had just lost much of their fertile land to the Second Blight, the fertile land of the Dales would be plenty of an incentive for them to want it back.

--------------------------------------------

Somewhat related: There seems to be a major inconsistancy with the timeline, or at least it appears like one. In The Tale of Iloren, it says that Iloren's clan was trying to survive the Blight that Zazikel was leading and that they were roaming the land. However, the elves had their own nation at this time. They were living in the Dales, which didn't fall until much later (at least a couple centuries). When the Dales fell, that's when the Dalish clans came to exist since they didn't want to lose their culture permanently.

Best I can figure, there is one way it could be explained: Iloren's clan was tasked by the elves of the Dales to travel and seek out any elven artifacts scattered throughout Thedas.

[Augustei]

We don't actually know if the chantry sent missionaries thats something the elves say, just like how the chantry says about the red crossing thing - All of it might even be bs and we'll never truly know what happened. I hope it is explored upon later in the series however.

All that is really known about it is there's definitely some propaganda in the story - or alot. And that apparently an exalted march was not called by the chantry until the elves of the dales had reached Val Royeaux. This is where the map confuses me, The broken bridge thing from Lydes to Val Royeaux does that mean it is not an optional route? whats with the broken line?

Anyway unless the elves are tactical idiots they would have had to take Lydes, Verchiel, Maybe Montsimmard and Val Foret before reaching Val Royeaux - The chantry at times can be stupid but if it was originally their fault because of their missionaries than I doubt that they are so stupid as to allow the situation get so out of hand for Orlais before getting involved.

I don't believe the missionaries or the chantry are the reason for the dales incident (Just my opinion though) But I wouldn't rule out Orlais. They have a history of expansionist desires especially since they had lost much fertile land. One argument put forward is the fact that the chantry and Orlais are closely intertwined due to the chantrys founding by an Orlesian emperor and with their support of numerous invasions in thedas's history like the Ferelden occupation, Nevarran occupation etc. That the chantry could still be at fault in direct relation to this incident.

Thats untrue imo because dispite the close relationship between the chantry and Orlais and their interwoven political regime. The two groups (Orlesian Monarchy and Chantry) still need to appease each other and cant afford anything to damaging to their political relationship. If the chantry is the true cause of what happened at the dales with their attempts at forced conversion and missionaries or we. Their failure to act for so long and the occupation of so much Orlesian territory because of their apparent actions would be to damaging to this political alliance.

The chantry may take foolish actions at times but I doubt they'd do something so foolish as to make their host country angered with them to such a degree that they would from causing such an event. I think if its not the elves that caused the incident then yes its Orlais, not the chantry though imo.
Theories as to how they would have done it are interesting though -With Montsimmard and eventually Val Royeaux under siege -two major places of power for the chantry its likely Orlais acted knowing the chantry would be forced to act and call an Exalted march. Maybe the Orlesian nobles even hired a bunch of cities elves, employed mercenary armies even - if such organisations consist with large numbers of elves. To impersonate the dalish, maybe put on the facial markings and cause trouble.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 24 septembre 2011 - 11:09 .

[Herr Uhl]

Eh, this seems like a reach to me, and one that would make the background lore less interesting (as in, Chantry did everything bad).

A few centuries of border troubles and friction can explain it without conspiracies.

As to the second, they might have been there before the Imperium, and decided to stay there living in a nomadic lifestyle. But most likely it is an oversight.

[Wulfram]

I'm sure the Chantry sent missionaries.  They'd be failing in their holy task if they didn't make the attempt to convert.

I also don't see much reason to come up with elaborate theories to avoid accepting that the Dalish, or at least a few of the Dalish, probably attacked Red Crossing.  It was probably in response to earlier provocations from Orlais, but really this is the sort of thing which happens on tense borders.  Turning the Dalish into nothing more than passive victims does them no favours.

[TEWR]

Ah I didn't know it wasn't until Val Royeaux was threatened that the Exalted March was declared. Most articles on the wiki and all of the codexes fail to mention that, so I'm assuming it was in some sort of guide or something?

Anyway, Lydes and Verchiel would definitely need to be taken. Montsimmard however is iffy, as they were almost destroyed entirely in the Second Blight so they might not even have much strength.

There's also the Orlesian occupation of the Free Marches. IIRC, they were eventually ousted from there as well.

[TobiTobsen]

One country gets attacked, the other country refuses to help. After the war the first country is pissed and starts border skirmishes, second country reacts and invades the first. First country calls for help and the second country gets beaten by the first country and their allies.

Sounds like the usual medieval pastime in my opinion. No need to interpret things into it. *shrug*

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

I'm sure the Chantry sent missionaries.  They'd be failing in their holy task if they didn't make the attempt to convert.

I also don't see much reason to come up with elaborate theories to avoid accepting that the Dalish, or at least a few of the Dalish, probably attacked Red Crossing.  It was probably in response to earlier provocations from Orlais, but really this is the sort of thing which happens on tense borders.  Turning the Dalish into nothing more than passive victims does them no favours.

I'm just thinking that maybe some fringe elements of the Dalish, or even extremists, caused it and that the majority of the Dales really had nothing to do with it. As a result, they were forced into a war with people who may not want to see reason.

[TEWR]

TobiTobsen wrote...

One country gets attacked, the other country refuses to help. After the war the first country is pissed and starts border skirmishes, second country reacts and invades the first. First country calls for help and the second country gets beaten by the first country and their allies.

Sounds like the usual medieval pastime in my opinion. No need to interpret things into it. *shrug*

What I can't really get behind is that the elves of the Dales would be so stupid as to say "You deal with your Blight and your Darkspawn. We don't care". It's a Blight. They should care, because if Orlais falls the Dales will too.

Of course, elven pride probably thought "Well our hunters are the bestest warriors ever!"

[TobiTobsen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ah I didn't know it wasn't until Val Royeaux was threatened that the Exalted March was declared. Most articles on the wiki and all of the codexes fail to mention that, so I'm assuming it was in some sort of guide or something?

"2:10 Glory: With elven forces having captured Montsimmard and marching on the doorstep of Val Royeaux, the Chantry calls for a holy war against the elves. This becomes known as the Exalted March of the Dales."

http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Ages#Glory

It's taken from the Prima Official Game Guide, Collector's Edition, p343. if I read the bibliography right.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What
I can't really get behind is that the elves of the Dales would be so
stupid as to say "You deal with your Blight and your Darkspawn. We don't
care". It's a Blight. They should care, because if Orlais falls the
Dales will too.

Of course, elven pride probably thought "Well our hunters are the bestest warriors ever!"

That's right. I found it strange myself and mentioned it quite often in discussion about this topic. But I like to think that the Dalish always had the **** vibe they have now. Would fit the usual fantasy elves.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 24 septembre 2011 - 11:28 .

[Gervaise]

It has struck me as somewhat suspicious that the elves were living perfectly happily in the Dales for around 200 years after the death of Andrase with no one apparently bothered about what they believed in,then the Chantry is founded by Orlais and 5 years later a second Blight starts. Then acccording to Chantry histories the elves apparently ignore the danger to Orlais and refuse to join forces. Was this because the Chantry were sending in missionaries to try and convert them, possibly because certain elements argued that the elven heresy was causing the blight? Then following the defeat of the archdemon there is only a short time before the Exalted March and the destruction of the Dales. I can't help feeling that Red Crossing was an isolated incident that Orlais used as an excuse to attack the elves and when it all went horribly wrong and the elves looked like defeating them, the Chantry stepped in an ordered an Exalted March.
I hope that what really happened is dealt with in future games, together with what happened with regard to Arlathan as there seems a great deal that has not been told - history is always written by the victors.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It is possible that the Dales didn't help Orlais, but I'd have to wonder if this was prior to the Grey Wardens having treaties with the elves. Darkspawn haven't always produced universal cooperation amongst nations. The Orleasian Empire was instrumental in stopping the Second Blight, but during the Third and Fourth Blights Orlais and Tevinter were reluctant to defend beyond their own borders until the wardens intervened and insisted, I think. I have occasionally wondered when the elves signed treaties with the Grey Wardens, because the First Blight ended before the elves had their own land and if they had signed them with the Dales it's possible the dalish would have simply refused to honor them if the nation that signed them was gone.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 septembre 2011 - 09:24 .

[Wulfram]

Looking at the timeline, it appears that the Dalish were clashing with the newly formed Orlesian Empire even before the second blight

1192 TE: Having conquered several neighboring city-states and forced others to submit to his overlordship, Kordillus Drakon is crowned in Val Royeaux as emperor. His ambitions to spread farther north into the Free Marches are confounded by constant pressures from the Dales to the east, so Emperor Drakon formalizes the Maker’s cult into the Chantry and commands that missionaries be sent forth into the other lands.

This also (edit:perhaps) implies that in this earlier case the aggressors were the Dalish, if Drakon's ambitions lay elsewhere.

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 septembre 2011 - 09:54 .

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

Looking at the timeline, it appears that the Dalish were clashing with the newly formed Orlesian Empire even before the second blight

1192 TE: Having conquered several neighboring city-states and forced others to submit to his overlordship, Kordillus Drakon is crowned in Val Royeaux as emperor. His ambitions to spread farther north into the Free Marches are confounded by constant pressures from the Dales to the east, so Emperor Drakon formalizes the Maker’s cult into the Chantry and commands that missionaries be sent forth into the other lands.

This also (edit:perhaps) implies that in this earlier case the aggressors were the Dalish, if Drakon's ambitions lay elsewhere.

If Drakon wasn't sending missionaries to the Dales, then yes the Dalish would be the aggressors like you said. But given that this timeline entry says he was sending missionaries to convert people and the Dalish specifically remember missionaries trying to convert people, I'd say the Chantry was the original aggressor.

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If Drakon wasn't sending missionaries to the Dales, then yes the Dalish would be the aggressors like you said. But given that this timeline entry says he was sending missionaries to convert people and the Dalish specifically remember missionaries trying to convert people, I'd say the Chantry was the original aggressor.

But it says he formalizes the Chantry and sends the missionaries because of pressure from the Dales.

Modifié par Zanallen, 25 septembre 2011 - 04:30 .

[Stoomkal]

I don't think Drakon forms the Chantry *because* the Dalish Elves threatened humanity at all...

I think he did so because he believed in Andraste... I may be wrong, but I do not remember it being said that the hostility from the Dales caused the formation of the Chantry.

Simply that "border hostility" caused the Dales to fall - but I do not remember them being the sole reason for the Chantry's existence.

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If Drakon wasn't sending missionaries to the Dales, then yes the Dalish would be the aggressors like you said. But given that this timeline entry says he was sending missionaries to convert people and the Dalish specifically remember missionaries trying to convert people, I'd say the Chantry was the original aggressor.

But it says he formalizes the Chantry and sends the missionaries because of pressure from the Dales.

but it doesn't say what exactly those pressures were. It could be anything from "We just want to be left alone. Now leave us alone!" to the border skirmishes we read about. Sister Petrine even says that the Emerald Knights stationed at the border were rebuking trade and civilized discourse, and this was before the attack on Red Crossing. 

If I had to venture a guess, it was the Emerald Knights rebuking of trade that prompted the Chantry to be officially founded by Kordillius Drakon, and he then proceeded to send missionaries to convert them.

The rest that would follow is hard to pinpoint.

[TEWR]

Figure I should post this:

Kordilius Drakon, king of the city-state of Orlais, was a man of uncommon ambition. In the year -15 Ancient, the young king began construction of a great temple dedicated to the Maker, and declared that by its completion he would not only have united the warring city-states of the south, he would have brought Andrastian belief to the world.

In -3 Ancient, the temple was completed. There, in its heart, Drakon knelt before the eternal flame of Andraste and was crowned ruler of the Empire of Orlais. His first act as Emperor: To declare the Chantry as the established Andrastian religion of the Empire.

It took three years and several hundred votes before Olessa of Montsimmard was elected to lead the new Chantry. Upon her coronation as Divine, she took the name Justinia, in honor of the disciple who recorded Andraste's songs. In that moment, the ancient era ended and the Divine Age began.

--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

[Sepewrath]

I would think he formed the Chantry because nothing holds more power over men than religion. It brought Tevinter down, having that power in your back pocket, it wouldn't take much get anyone to jump on the opportunity.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Chantry were trying to convert them the Elves, that's just how religion works. And if they can get them under the banner of the Chantry, it attaches them to the empire. I think Orlais was all about padding its power at the time, its not like they were safe, empires fall, but there's nothing that says they cant rise back up.

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If Drakon wasn't sending missionaries to the Dales, then yes the Dalish would be the aggressors like you said. But given that this timeline entry says he was sending missionaries to convert people and the Dalish specifically remember missionaries trying to convert people, I'd say the Chantry was the original aggressor.

Sending missionaries isn't an aggressive act.

[Gervaise]

There is another possibility about the elves initial aggression. They were originally granted their land by Maferath and it may be that is was under the condition that if other states that originally formed part of his land grant from the Imperium were under threat, then the elves would assist. Naturally he would think that the aggressors would be the northern Imperium. However, when Drakon starts trying to establish a rival empire and makes aggressive overtures against the Freemarches, then elves may have felt duty bound to respond, initially with trade sanctions - much as happens today. If Orlais started trying to force the issue, then the elves would react some more. The fact that the pressure from the elves to the east was preventing Orlais from undertaking their campaign against the Freemarches would at least suggest this as a possibility for what lay behind the elven aggression.
Drakon may have "believed" in the Maker and Andraste but he certainly neither honoured her memory in the type of state he established with nobility considering themselves superior to other mortals and entitled to treat their lessers with cruelty and contempt, nor inwiping out the Dales. If he and the Chantry were only interested in conversion, why did they not allow the elves to remain in their homeland under the control of the Chantry, once the hostile elements had been subdued? Instead they displaced the elves entirely and forced them to submit to living in the appalling conditions of the alienages, the worst of which is in Orlais' capital city and home of the Chantry. However, you dress it up, the conquest of the Dales was a political act masquerading as a religious one (bit like the Crusades of the Holy Land).

[EmperorSahlertz]

The pressure from the Dales prevented Drakon from conquering the Free Marches. But if he couldn't conquer the Free Marches, he would at least conquer their hearts and minds, so he formalized the Andrastian cult into a single coherent church, which he then commanded send out their missionaries, not just to the Dales, but probably much of Thedas. This way, if the missionaries were succesful, he could still rule the other nations by extension of the Chantry being situated in Orlais.
And obviously the Dalish were the aggressors since they were pressuring the Orlesian borders, long before the missionaries were even sent.

[Gervaise]

And whilst the elves might well still revere Andraste, they would not submit to an Orlais inspired Chantry even if they didn't have their polytheistic faith. The fact is though, inspite of the cult of Andraste which was pretty universal throught Thedas and significant enough that the first ruler to adopt it was the Archon of the Imperium, no one objected to the elves beliefs until Drakon and the establishment of his national Chantry. If their beliefs were such an afront to the Maker and Andraste, why would Maferath and his sons have even bothered granting them the Dales in the first place - surely it would have been a good excuse not to do so. Why did they not suffer continual harrassment from aggrieved cultists during the first 200 years of their existance? I'm not saying that the elves were perfect or did not contribute to some extent to their own downfall but the way is was handled by the Chantry and Orlais make me feel that the motive for eradicating the Dales was primarily a political one.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No one cared about the belief of the Elves until the Dales were annexed into Orlais. And since the public faith of Orlais is Andrastians, then having Elves practice their heresy in public would be quite detrimental to public order.
The Chantry sent their missionaries in the Dales, were not an act of aggression, but just an act of faith. The Chantry want to enlighten as many people as possible, so it is natural they tried to convert some Elves. The Elves could have grown a brain and handled it better, like say: allow the missionaries to preach, and either a) trust that their own people was firm in their belief, or allow their people to choose for themselves.

[LobselVith8]

According to the Dalish storyteller when The Warden hears about the fall of the Dales, the human nations grew cold towards the Dales because they remained faithful to their elven gods. It doesn't seem that the war between the Chantry and Orlais against the Dales and its elves was the first instance of battles with the two, especially given the line about Drakon - perhaps the issues about the elves' faith started much sooner, but nothing was done for a while.

Who started the war will probably never be truly known - Orlais claims it was the elves, the elves claim it was the Chantry and Orlais. There's no evidence to support either side as being truthful. If we are trying to come up with a theory as to what's possible, we do know is that Orlais has a history of conquest from its inception under Drakon and across the centuries of its existance, including taking Nevarra after the Third Blight, and even recently with Ferelden prior to the Fifth Blight.

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If Drakon wasn't sending missionaries to the Dales, then yes the Dalish would be the aggressors like you said. But given that this timeline entry says he was sending missionaries to convert people and the Dalish specifically remember missionaries trying to convert people, I'd say the Chantry was the original aggressor.

Sending missionaries isn't an aggressive act.

The Dalish clan on Sundermount begs to differ considering the missionary priests that were sent there made poorly veiled threats against the Dalish. If Drakon's missionaries did something similar, then it would indeed be an aggressive act. Or at least a threat of one to come.