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The Dalish and the Fall of the Dales


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#26
TEWR

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LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the Dalish storyteller when The Warden hears about the fall of the Dales, the human nations grew cold towards the Dales because they remained faithful to their elven gods. It doesn't seem that the war between the Chantry and Orlais against the Dales and its elves was the first instance of battles with the two, especially given the line about Drakon - perhaps the issues about the elves' faith started much sooner, but nothing was done for a while.

Who started the war will probably never be truly known - Orlais claims it was the elves, the elves claim it was the Chantry and Orlais. There's no evidence to support either side as being truthful. If we are trying to come up with a theory as to what's possible, we do know is that Orlais has a history of conquest from its inception under Drakon and across the centuries of its existance, including taking Nevarra after the Third Blight, and even recently with Ferelden prior to the Fifth Blight.


Nevarra, Ferelden, and the Free Marches. All were under Orlesian rule and all of them revolted. Says a lot about how much people like Orlesians, doesn't it?

It probably doesn't help that they think they're allowed to rule by divine right.


The aristocracy is different from Ferelden in other ways, as well. The Orlesians' right to rule stems directly from the Maker. There exists neither the concept of rule by merit nor the slightest notion of rebellion. If one is not noble, one aspires to be--or at the least aspires to be in the good graces of a noble, and is ever watching for a way to enter the patronage of those better placed in the Grand Game.





Wulfram wrote...


The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If Drakon wasn't sending missionaries to the Dales, then yes the Dalish would be the aggressors like you said. But given that this timeline entry says he was sending missionaries to convert people and the Dalish specifically remember missionaries trying to convert people, I'd say the Chantry was the original aggressor.


Sending missionaries isn't an aggressive act.


The Dalish clan on Sundermount begs to differ considering the missionary priests that were sent there made poorly veiled threats against the Dalish. If Drakon's missionaries did something similar, then it would indeed be an aggressive act. Or at least a threat of one to come.


edit: since I'm at the top of the page I want to put my last post up here, just incase.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 septembre 2011 - 04:33 .


#27
TobiTobsen

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If the missionaries acted like the cleric you met at Ostagar, it clearly could be seen as an act of aggression.

"Thank you, but I don't need the blessing of your god"
"Omg you heathen abomination! Go die in a fire! Maker curse you!"

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 25 septembre 2011 - 04:50 .


#28
Wulfram

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry sent their missionaries in the Dales, were not an act of aggression, but just an act of faith. The Chantry want to enlighten as many people as possible, so it is natural they tried to convert some Elves. The Elves could have grown a brain and handled it better, like say: allow the missionaries to preach, and either a) trust that their own people was firm in their belief, or B) allow their people to choose for themselves.


Unfortunately, this isn't really a possibility.  One of the key Dalish beliefs is that avoiding contact with humans is necessary to regaining the long life of their ancestors.  Allowing free access to missionaries, or any other humans, was thus impossible.

#29
TEWR

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TobiTobsen wrote...

If the missionaries acted like the cleric you met at Ostagar, it clearly could be seen as an act of aggression.

"Thank you, but I don't need the blessing of your god"
"Omg you heathen abomination! Go die in a fire! Maker curse you!"



I hate that ****....

#30
Gervaise

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I think one should also bear in mind that the Divine was willing to consider making an Exalted March on Kirkwall when there is nothing to suggest that the majority of the citizens were not loyal to the Chantry or at the very least indifferent. In fact we are told that Elthina is one of the best loved grand clerics ever and Meredith is probably right in saying that the majority of the citizens would be outraged by her death. Petrice certainly seemed to have no trouble drumming up fanatics. So it seems that Exalted Marches can be called for not purely religious reasons.
It is also odd that the elves were not allowed to remain given that the majority of the people who replaced them live along a narrow coastal strip. Also, if the Chantry so objected to the faith of the elves, why did they not wipe out those refused to submit? Clearly heretic elves with no land are not such an offence to the Maker as heretic elves who possess a strategically important location.

#31
Heimdall

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Gervaise wrote...

I think one should also bear in mind that the Divine was willing to consider making an Exalted March on Kirkwall when there is nothing to suggest that the majority of the citizens were not loyal to the Chantry or at the very least indifferent. In fact we are told that Elthina is one of the best loved grand clerics ever and Meredith is probably right in saying that the majority of the citizens would be outraged by her death. Petrice certainly seemed to have no trouble drumming up fanatics. So it seems that Exalted Marches can be called for not purely religious reasons.
It is also odd that the elves were not allowed to remain given that the majority of the people who replaced them live along a narrow coastal strip. Also, if the Chantry so objected to the faith of the elves, why did they not wipe out those refused to submit? Clearly heretic elves with no land are not such an offence to the Maker as heretic elves who possess a strategically important location.

Actually, I'd just like to say that Leliana never says that the Divine is considering an Exalted March, Elthina just says that she fears the Divine might be.  The target of the march wouldn't be the populace anyway, but the exploding population of apostates, abominations and Maleficarum the Templars are proving unable to handle.

#32
IanPolaris

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Lord Aesir wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

I think one should also bear in mind that the Divine was willing to consider making an Exalted March on Kirkwall when there is nothing to suggest that the majority of the citizens were not loyal to the Chantry or at the very least indifferent. In fact we are told that Elthina is one of the best loved grand clerics ever and Meredith is probably right in saying that the majority of the citizens would be outraged by her death. Petrice certainly seemed to have no trouble drumming up fanatics. So it seems that Exalted Marches can be called for not purely religious reasons.
It is also odd that the elves were not allowed to remain given that the majority of the people who replaced them live along a narrow coastal strip. Also, if the Chantry so objected to the faith of the elves, why did they not wipe out those refused to submit? Clearly heretic elves with no land are not such an offence to the Maker as heretic elves who possess a strategically important location.

Actually, I'd just like to say that Leliana never says that the Divine is considering an Exalted March, Elthina just says that she fears the Divine might be.  The target of the march wouldn't be the populace anyway, but the exploding population of apostates, abominations and Maleficarum the Templars are proving unable to handle.


Assuming that Elthina and the Divine communicate regularly (and we know they do), it seems reasonable to think that the Divine is perfectly well aware of Elthina's fear of an Exalted March.  Given that, I find it most remarkable that Lelianna as "Sister Nightengale" does nothing to assuage those fears and instead tells the Grand Cleric to "clear the battlezone".  If I were Elthina, I'd certainly assume the Divine is getting ready for an Exalted March under these circumstances.

-Polaris

#33
Wulfram

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Firstly, there is no real evidence the Divine was considering an exalted march on Kirkwall. But that's not this thread.

The Exalted March against the Dales was only called when the Dalish were threatening Val Royeaux itself. Since that is the home of the Chantry and the seat of the Divine, it wouldn't be difficult to portray this as a threat to the Faith itself.

The harshness of the treatment of the elves following their defeat probably reflects how badly they scared both Orlais and the Chantry in the early stages of the war. They were a threat, and genocide was a way to remove this threat permanently.

#34
Heimdall

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IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

I think one should also bear in mind that the Divine was willing to consider making an Exalted March on Kirkwall when there is nothing to suggest that the majority of the citizens were not loyal to the Chantry or at the very least indifferent. In fact we are told that Elthina is one of the best loved grand clerics ever and Meredith is probably right in saying that the majority of the citizens would be outraged by her death. Petrice certainly seemed to have no trouble drumming up fanatics. So it seems that Exalted Marches can be called for not purely religious reasons.
It is also odd that the elves were not allowed to remain given that the majority of the people who replaced them live along a narrow coastal strip. Also, if the Chantry so objected to the faith of the elves, why did they not wipe out those refused to submit? Clearly heretic elves with no land are not such an offence to the Maker as heretic elves who possess a strategically important location.

Actually, I'd just like to say that Leliana never says that the Divine is considering an Exalted March, Elthina just says that she fears the Divine might be.  The target of the march wouldn't be the populace anyway, but the exploding population of apostates, abominations and Maleficarum the Templars are proving unable to handle.


Assuming that Elthina and the Divine communicate regularly (and we know they do), it seems reasonable to think that the Divine is perfectly well aware of Elthina's fear of an Exalted March.  Given that, I find it most remarkable that Lelianna as "Sister Nightengale" does nothing to assuage those fears and instead tells the Grand Cleric to "clear the battlezone".  If I were Elthina, I'd certainly assume the Divine is getting ready for an Exalted March under these circumstances.

-Polaris

Or she might, you know, think the Divine was concerned that some blood mage (Like those Resolutionists the Divine seems so worried about) would try to kill Elthina.  That's how I've always interpretted that line.

This is off topic, I'll stop.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 25 septembre 2011 - 06:56 .


#35
Sir JK

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We know that the elves settled the Dales sometime around 1025 - 1040 Tevinter. The Dales, were located between Orzammar, the Avvar and the Kingdom of the Ciraine (which later became Orlais) which had been a principal power behind Maferath's host (and it's first king was one of Maferath's sons).
The elves thus chose their new homeland between two existing human populations and an virtually all-important trade route. It was probably reasonably empty lands and I doubt any humans were displaced. But it was rather close. Halamshiral itself even lies on the imperial highway. So contact with humanity must've been nigh unavoidable.

During the same period various Andraste cults are cropping up and the Chant of Light itself proves to become very popular in the Kingdom of the Ciraine. It is a proselysing faith but also hunted by the old imperial faith, so it's probably as close knit and relies on the social groups surrounding the revered mothers.

We know the elves "rediscover" and "reconstructs" their old faith. How they do so after centuries of slavery is beyond me, but I wouldn't be surprised if they borrowed heavily from the faith in the old gods (that's not saying they believe in the old gods or that it's not the same gods they worshipped in Arlathan). At some point the notion to restore their immortality arrives.
Here comes the problem. Their immortality has been lost since contact with humans started. Logic suggests that contact with humanity is at fault. So two generations or three in, it's not unfeasible that a isolationist party starts rising.

The Dales lie smack in the middle of two large human populations. Right on top of the imperial Highway. Between the centre of the proselysing faith and both pagan humans and the homeland of the prophetess.
Isolation will be practically impossible to maintain.

It's not unlikely that the elves institute the emerald knights to maintain their isolation roughly at the same time Kordilius Drakon begins his wars of conquest. So sometime mid- or late- 1100 Tevinter.
Let's point one thing out: The elves institute an order of warriors to keep humans out. People trained to kill to maintain territorial "purity".
The Dales are huge. It's probably easy to cross the border by mistake. I could easily imagine a year passing before they find you. Hunters, peasants looking for land, vagrants, explorers... all entering the Dales more or less intentionally. And traders seeking to travel to Orzammar or what will be Ferelden to trade passing too close to Halamshiral. All rebuffed, with more or less hostility.
There's probably no killing, but I can't imagine the local humans being too keen on our angry elves in green.
There's probably missionaries too, some headed towards the elves some just taking a shortcut. They too will be rebuffed.

But regardless of how violent the elves are at this point, the movement of the humans into the Dales is unlikely to cease. As the wars rage and Orlais forms, chances are it just keeps increasing. At the same time, the fereldans are converting on the other side of the Frostbacks and trying to establish contact with their fellows in faith in Orlais and the dwarves close the deeproads and become dependant on surface trade. And the Dales are absolutely massive, today they make up a solid third or quarter of Orlais. It's probably not unfertile too, which makes it very attractive land.
Cue frustration on the elven side.

Bam. Chant of Light is established as state religion in Orlais. The Divine is elected. The Dales are between 160 and 175 years old. The elves who fought with Andraste are probably long dead. The humans who fought with Shartan definantely are (by my counts this is their great-great-great-grandchildren).
Most contact elves and humans have had for 4 generations are at this point probably more negative than positive. All they can remember are bad things and not even their elders will remember much good (if the elves have elders that have lived that long, they probably think humanity has taken a turn from the worse).
The year is now 1:1.

The political situation in Orlais leads to magic being outlawed and the Inqusition is turned into the templars (it was probably a good idea at the time). It's unlikely that the elven mages and the inquisition got along, the sentiment probably lingered in the templars. Unless the emerald knights had mages among their lines it's unlikely to lead to outright conflicts yet. A year or two later the templars will probably be sent with missionaries. They'll probably still be rebuffed, but I imagine it just enough threat of force to "allow" missionaries travelling the road (again, past Halamshiral).

1:5 the 2nd Blight begins. It will continue for 90 years. Orlais is ravaged hard. In 1:25 the elves refuse (despite being able to) to assist Montsimmard, what probably is the empire's second largest city. Don't think it's a stretch to say relations are at a new bottom. In 33 the Grey Warden's convert to the Chant of Light, spreading orlesian Chant of Light to the north over the next century.

In 1:45, Drakon dies of old age. Having been a ruler for 55 years (so he must've been 60-75 or older). Kordillius II is not his father.

1:65 Anderfels secedes from Orlais. Kordilius II is still the monarch, his position is probably rather tenous. Between 45 and this year both Free Marches and Antiva turn Andrastian thanks largely to the Grey Wardens.

1:95. Zezekiel dies, the blight ends. 90 years it took. During it's course half the world has turned Andrastian and Kordillius has lost half of Orlais. If he is still alive he must've ruled for 50 years... which suggests that he is not (since he wasn't much of a ruler). It's probably a son, grandson, usurper or son of a usurper ruling. Either case, they probably need a triumph.

The next five years are known as the Rebuilding. Trade, culture and Religion flourishes. Due to the Blight, the elves have probably had a great respite from humanity's encroachments. Since they didn't participate the emerald knights are still strong. Now all that encroachment resumes and with greater vigor. By now the Andrastians probably feel it's their duty to educate the pagan elves.

10 years later in 2:05, 80 years after Montsimmard (short enough for grandparents to remember the elven betrayal), skirmishes happens. We're probably talking templars violently defending missionaries, elves burning down encroashing farmsteads and chasing of the peasants, hunters being punched out. One sides does something, the other side retaliates somewhere else.
A cycle of violence. It's probably more fistfights and waving of swords and less outright fights. People do get killed, but more by accident than intent.

In 2:09 Red Crossing burns. The elves burn a settlement on the elven side of the border, the priestesses are all killed. Orlais declares war.

In 2:10 have captured Montsimmard (is Lydes and Verchiel elven or orlesian?) and are entering the Heartlands. I don't think we can expect the priests in Montsimmard to have fared much better than in Red Crossing. Val Firmin, Val Foret, and Val Royeux are all threatened.
So... one year and they're near Orlais heart... the elves were ready for this. Or the orlesians very unprepared.
The Exalted March is called.

Somewhere between 2:10 and 2:20 Val Royeux is sacked.

2:20 Halamshiral is conquered, the Dales fall. The elven communities are uprooted, probably since the Dales are huge and there's no cities. It's a recipe for neverceasing guerilla warfare to let them stay. Their faith is forbidden. Partly because it's a pagan faith, partly because it's attached to the elven-immortality philosophy that's very hostile to humanity.

The war took 11 years and led to the destruction of two capitals and at least another prominent orlesian city. Orlais alone could not have survived and it called upon the rest of Andrastian thedas to help.

To summarise. I think the fall of the Dales is a result of Elven Isolationism and orlesian expansion and how trade, hunting and religion brought those two into conflict. Even if the Orlesians hadn't expanded in that direction (something that wasn't planned and organised) sooner or later the elves would have to expand either into Orlais or into the Frostbacks. The elven position was simply unattainable. The fall of the Dales was simply unavoidable.

That's my analysis of the lore anyways. Hope you enjoyed reading it.

#36
Gervaise

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Very good post and very interesting. One query though - was it really the Grey Wardens who spread the Andrastrian faith. I understood from codexes that even before the appearance of Andraste, people had already lost faith in the old gods as a result of the First Blight and this was partly why she enjoyed such success and popularity, in addition of course to her opposition of the Imperium. Even though she ultimately was betrayed, the adoption of the Chant of Light was so widespread that it is claimed the Archon adopted the faith almost out of necessity (although others claim he was genuine). Still at this point the the "old Imperial faith" was pretty much dead even in the Imperium and certainly in the southern lands held by Maferath and his sons. But it had no centralised control which only came after the Chantry was established. So I doubt the Grey Wardens had that much to do with its spread, although the Second blight may have helped as the Chantry could claim this was the Maker's punishment for the failure to spread the Chant.
I often wondered how the elves had retained their old faith during the years of slavery but then again the Jews did in Egypt and then again in Babylon and it was a way of holding together a cultural identity. Also in the Gauntlet in DAO, Shartan says "the enemy of my enemy was my friend". This would suggest that his alliance was based less on acceptance of the faith of the Maker and perhaps more on political expediency.
Strangely enough I seem to recall a conversation between Merrill and Sebastian that touched on this and I'm almost certain I recall Merril suggesting that perhaps they both believe in the same divine force but describe it in different ways. May be someone else can help me out here. If I am correct, then perhaps that was the way that Andraste and Shartan reconciled their respective beliefs as well.

#37
Jedi Master of Orion

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TobiTobsen wrote...

If the missionaries acted like the cleric you met at Ostagar, it clearly could be seen as an act of aggression.

"Thank you, but I don't need the blessing of your god"
"Omg you heathen abomination! Go die in a fire! Maker curse you!"


Uh, not really. Being obnoxious isn't exactly a sign of foreign invasion. Especially since she never says it quite like that. She is only mean to you if you are mean to her first. I always accept her blessing even when my characters don't worship the Maker. To do otherwise seemed like dialogue options that were needlessly petulant and hateful.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 septembre 2011 - 08:08 .


#38
Sir JK

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Gervaise: According to the timeline it was the grey Wardens that spread the orlesian Chant of light to the north. First Anderfels adopted it. Then Free Marches and Antiva (Nevarra did as part of the Orlesian empire) and after about 300 years did it start to spread in Tevinter. Rivain adopted it later, possibly only after the Qunari.

#39
Gervaise

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Fair enough - I must have missed that bit in my reading or may be I never found that particular codex.
By the way, I've just checked and I got the conversation the wrong way round - it is Sebastian who suggests that they are probably both describing the same divine force but in different ways - I knew there was a reason I like him so much, that is a really most enlightened way of looking at things - he can't possibly have got that from the Chantry.

#40
Wulfram

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Gervaise wrote...

Strangely enough I seem to recall a conversation between Merrill and Sebastian that touched on this and I'm almost certain I recall Merril suggesting that perhaps they both believe in the same divine force but describe it in different ways. May be someone else can help me out here. If I am correct, then perhaps that was the way that Andraste and Shartan reconciled their respective beliefs as well.


Sebastian suggests it.  Merrill doesn't seem to buy it.
  • Sebastian: So what do you believe, Merrill?
  • Merrill: Our gods abandoned us long ago. They haven't answered our prayers since the fall of Arlathan.
  • Merrill: When we've proven that we're elves again, that we didn't lose everything, they'll come back to us.
  • Sebastian: We say the same of the Maker.
  • Sebastian: Perhaps they're only different names for the same divine force that created the world.
  • Merrill: The Maker wants you to be elves?


#41
dragonflight288

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Strangely enough I seem to recall a conversation between Merrill and Sebastian that touched on this and I'm almost certain I recall Merril suggesting that perhaps they both believe in the same divine force but describe it in different ways. May be someone else can help me out here. If I am correct, then perhaps that was the way that Andraste and Shartan reconciled their respective beliefs as well.


Actually it's Sebastian, honestly curious about Dalish beliefs, is asking Merrill about them and points out similarities. He's the one who suggests they might worship the same thing in different words. Merrill then asks "The Maker wants humans to be elves?" according to their conversation.

You need to hear he whole thing to get Merrill's last line.

EDIT: Oh, already answered.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 25 septembre 2011 - 08:39 .


#42
Jedi Master of Orion

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I'm not certain if the implication of that conversation was that Merrill specifically doesn't believe his idea or she just was cluelessly missing his point; because she consistently misunderstands people throughout the game because she almost constantly takes things too literally.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 septembre 2011 - 08:49 .


#43
TobiTobsen

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

If the missionaries acted like the cleric you met at Ostagar, it clearly could be seen as an act of aggression.

"Thank you, but I don't need the blessing of your god"
"Omg you heathen abomination! Go die in a fire! Maker curse you!"


Uh, not really. Being obnoxious isn't exactly a sign of foreign invasion. Especially since she never says it quite like that. She is only mean to you if you are mean to her first. I always accept her blessing even when my characters don't worship the Maker. To do otherwise seemed like dialogue options that were needlessly petulant and hateful.


Her answer is still more rude and aggressive than the wardens comment..

Her reaction is just one of the signs that go along with the main goal of her faith, imo. They have to be aggressive, they have to spread their faith in every corner of Thedas, otherwise they will not reach their salvation and their god will not come back. If you refuse, they have to put you to the sword or convert you violently. The Andrastian religion has very little room for other interpretations.

#44
Jedi Master of Orion

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TobiTobsen wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

If the missionaries acted like the cleric you met at Ostagar, it clearly could be seen as an act of aggression.

"Thank you, but I don't need the blessing of your god"
"Omg you heathen abomination! Go die in a fire! Maker curse you!"


Uh, not really. Being obnoxious isn't exactly a sign of foreign invasion. Especially since she never says it quite like that. She is only mean to you if you are mean to her first. I always accept her blessing even when my characters don't worship the Maker. To do otherwise seemed like dialogue options that were needlessly petulant and hateful.


Her answer is still more rude and aggressive than the wardens comment..

Her reaction is just one of the signs that go along with the main goal of her faith, imo. They have to be aggressive, they have to spread their faith in every corner of Thedas, otherwise they will not reach their salvation and their god will not come back. If you refuse, they have to put you to the sword or convert you violently. The Andrastian religion has very little room for other interpretations.


That is untrue. The Chant is supposed to be spread to "all four corners of the world." That in and of itself is kind of an ambigious phrase, but more importantly how to spread the Chant is not mentioned. There is nothing about converting unbleivers by force in the Chant. At least, among the verses that have been revealed to us. There are lots of interpretations of Andrastianism. Elthina and Petrice, for example, obviously had very different ones and that was just about one aspect of it.

The priestess's comment isn't really that much worse than what the Warden says to her.

The dialogue is more like:

"Will you accept the blessing of the Maker?"
"I will do no such thing. Keep your blessings to yourself."
"Then begone, heathen. That the wardens accept the likes of you is their greatest weakness."

The Warden is always the one who starts the hostility.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 septembre 2011 - 10:33 .


#45
TobiTobsen

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That is untrue. The Chant is supposed to be spread to "all four corners of the world." That in and of itself is kind of an ambigious phrase, but more importantly how to spread the Chant is not mentioned. There is nothing about converting unbleivers by force in the Chant. At least, among the verses that have been revealed to us. There are lots of interpretations of Andrastianism. Elthina and Petrice, for example, obviously had very different ones and that was just about one aspect of it.


If your faith says that your god only returns to you if everybody follows the chant and people refuse to convert... well in my opinion, given the history the chantry has with handling unbelivers, it's not really a question if the chantry will use violence, rather when. They already showed that in Kont-aar.

#46
Jedi Master of Orion

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They were in the middle of a war with the Qunari. Not that I'm condoning slaughtering the Vidathaari but, it wasn't like they happened upon a peaceful village and then decided to wipe out the inhabitants for not believing in the Maker. They were treated as enemy civilians. Yes, the Chantry used violence but every major power in history also used to violence. It's like saying "It's not a question of if people will use violence but when they will" when looking at the general history of Thedas. That's just how people are. I'd have expected mostly the same thing would have happened of the Chantry had not been organizing the counter offensives. None of the Chantry's Exalted Marches were called for the single purpose of simply converting people to worship of the Maker and nothing else. The Exalted March on the Dales was intervening in a war that already existed between Orlais and the Dales and the Exalted March on the Qunari were called to regain lost territory from invaders.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 septembre 2011 - 11:57 .


#47
dragonflight288

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The chantry was backed by a man building an empire by force, claiming he and all other nobles in Orlais had divine right from the Maker to be rulers...or maybe that simply developed over time, who constantly used force to expand his empire. The Chantry constantly uses force to expand their religion...and they were only one of many Andrastian cults studying the Chant of Light.

One Divine almost ordered an Exalted March on her own Cathedral because mages were peacefully protesting by not lighting the candles. The elves on Sundermount said that templars or missionaries came and made veiled threats which amounted to "convert or die."

In one of the Origins epilogues, the Chantry considers and Exalted March on Orzammar if an independent Circle of Magi is formed.

The Divine named the current age the Dragon Age, which most likely supported the Orlesian in charge of Ferelden at the time whose family crest was a dragon. No one expected the High Dragon to travel west instead of east into Ferelden and she + the Orlesians almost certainly did not expect Loghain and a bunch of dogs to defeat the Chevaliers.

There is far too much history of the Chantry working with Orlais being aggressive and violent with non-believers or heathens.

If you take what the Chant of Light teaches and what many Revered Mothers teach, a lot of it contradicts each other. The Chantry has even removed things from the chant because they consider it heretical, or it may even contradict what they teach.

#48
Stoomkal

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Wulfram wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If Drakon wasn't sending missionaries to the Dales, then yes the Dalish would be the aggressors like you said. But given that this timeline entry says he was sending missionaries to convert people and the Dalish specifically remember missionaries trying to convert people, I'd say the Chantry was the original aggressor.


Sending missionaries isn't an aggressive act.


...

???

Actually, IRL - it really is...

Christian missionaries are regarded as the first force of invasion and colonisation by... well, all cultures and history, really.

Take a look at modern day India and ask me if Christian missionaries coming in to convert "heathen" Hindu's is regarded as a hostile act...

They end up murdered in back alleys, sometimes with their families.

Recently, there was a similar case in a... pacific island. A preacher moved in with his family. They were later all found dead... locals says he did nothing but tell people to "come to the light"... not particularly hostile, so why did he end up dead?

You can either blame the people who live there - or blame the missionary for doing work that some people find to be the first step in the dismantlement of their culture... it is called post-colonialism.

So... yah - all missionaries seeking to convert foreigners can be considered hostile - it is only if you *agree* that Jeebus is good that being a missionary becomes a holy act.

Similar things are now said about Muslim preachers, and they too are instructed to this task.

So, yah - very, very hostile. Either in New York - or New Delhi... Image IPB

EDIT: 

Anyone remember the codex on the "missionaries" the Chantry sent to Rivain... yah.

Modifié par Stoomkal, 26 septembre 2011 - 02:41 .


#49
Jedi Master of Orion

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Sending missionaries by themselves is not necessarily a hostile act. There is nothing forcing the Dales to convert to the Maker simply by sending preachers. Sending missionaries as a precursor to invasion is, but if they are just there to peacefully spread a message then then that wouldn't be hostile. Admittedly, much might depend on exactly how they go about preaching, but, in and of itself, a missionary sent to the Dales to tell people about the Chant of Light would be completely different than the what the Chantry did in Rivain. The two situations aren't even remotely similar.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:37 .


#50
dragonflight288

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Yeah, the people of Rivain aren't second-hand citizens of Orlais and other countries.

Think about it. Many elves left before even arriving at the Dales because they felt the Long Walk was too hard, and they preferred slavery or second-class citizenship because they never knew anything else.

For centuries humans have seen elves as slaves and servants at best. There are many prejudices against elves because it doesn't even occur to people that elves can be people too. Look at Vaughn.

And the City Elves have completely forgotten their ancient culture, and as a modern culture (modern in Dragon: 32 that is) they seem to accept inferiority as a matter of course. When a City Elf stands up for him or herself like the City Elf Origin, the rest of the Alienage looks down on them scorns them, because it'll bring problems on the rest of them. They seem to have the belief if they close their eyes and go 'la la la' humans will leave them alone if they stay down and be quiet.

Most people spend their entire lives never hearing anything about the Dalish or even seeing one because of their isolationist policies.

I don't see a country like Orlais, who believe being noble is a divine gift from the Maker or the Chantry being backed by Orlais would even consider the Dalish equals. At best, if they did convert peacefully, they would be in the alienages and no better than any other city elf.

In Rivain there are humans who are seen as equals in some respect or another. With the Dalish you have open prejudices on both sides. Dalish hating the Shemlen (Example: how dare you help our hunters because we can't help them!) and humans just hating elfs (Example: Knife-Ear Wench!!)

Modifié par dragonflight288, 26 septembre 2011 - 05:15 .